G-G-G-Ghost !!!!!

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GGGGGGGhosts of Christian culture? I'm trying to be objective, real and rational, but my superstitious nature is getting the best of me these days. I was raised in a religious home but as I've gotten older, I have, for the most part, come to agree with Carl Marx that religion is the opiate of the people. I am not fond of the clergy, (religious, political or academic) nor would I want to bring on any twisted religious debate about what your God wants me to do or how happy or upset he is with me. Nor am I possessed to inflict anything like that on any of you and I'm wrestling with myself as to whether that is what I'm actually doing here? I am reluctant to spill my gut or any of my "smoke"on the subject and as I write this I hesitate to hit the submit button, but I've found some pretty sincere (Micheal, the newbie) people in this Grassroot Y2K discussion that are not motivated by anything but intellectual kinship that I'm feeling compelled to risk my gut with... the rest of you can go to hell, if your so inclined. Religions discussions and Y2K seem to invite a simular wide variety of participants, because the territory is so vast and the observations are coming from such a wide range of background. This is not an attempt to "praise god and pass the plate" its a hard core Y2K head trip issue I'm talking about here. I have seen a lot of people put their gut and their faith into this Y2K debate and many have left themselves wide open to critical scrutiny, by hard core rationalists, who are to close to the forest to see the trees. If you might consider what I am saying here, I don't know but what it may or may not fuel your faith in some of youselves for what you are doing about Y2K or why or it may even explain the reasons for some of our insanity. There seems to be a lot of historical profile coming together next year to repeat itself, and if you have the narrow focus and intelligence of a dinasaur, Happy New Year! and good luck! I suspect that some have been left with a history and a religious legacy of cultural programming by grandparents to help insure survival instincts, in their children for future generations and sooner or later I am sure, beyond faith that it will affect the outcome of certain strains of genetic survival. Some, especially younger people, have forgotten a lot and fail to appreciate the roots this society was built on and fail to realized that the roots are rotting. I would not suspect that Darwin would have counted that as a nessesary element of fitness, but if the SHTF next year it may have been one of the most important genetic behavior ingredients? Not what you say about it, but what you do about it. On the other hand our failed predictions and warnings could expose us temporarily to our own insanity and that embarassment could happen many times. (Who Cares if its not the first wolf cry that gets you) Christian have been sitting on the Watchtower waiting for Jesus for 2000 years. Thinking Linear instead of cyclic, I respectfully disagree. They may have lost a lot of prophetic battles, but instinctivly still winning the war. This piece I'm writing here is dedicated to the times we are right, individually, as communities, or world wide. I have never met any of you but for the level headed ones who matter, we obviously have some of the same genetic grandparents, who stepped out from danger before. (Noah in pricipal) I believe that water seeks its own level and if you are a serious preparer and you save your childrens lives because of your efforts, my kids will probubly meet your kids and the kinship will go on even if at the present time we are a bunch of scattered and confuse people, all alone looking through the fog for rational facts to act on. I hope that if you did all you could to prepare to face your future survival need, the universe will respond in kind to help you fill out the rest.

Having examined and looking deeply into my subconcious for reasons that I instinctivly locked on to the Y2K issue (aside from the fact that I have a lot of kids who I care about) while many around me are treating the issue and me lately, like I was some kind of religious fringe lunatic, I think I at least see one of the reasons that I and perhaps many of you are so isolated from the mainstream. I always hesitate to mention the Bible because it always opens up such a can of worms. I recently dusted off an old Bible, that I stole from my sister a long time ago and set my browser to it and I got haunted by Ghosts from the past. Please, this is a serious interest in the Bible as a historical observation and how it and other history books might be influencing our subconscious behavior patterns, not an invitation for opiated religious commentary. I'll just post one example: This cry at midnight and oil thing spooks me and the book is full of more of it. Its driving me CRAAAAAZY! This is crazy. 21 days to board the Ark? Mathew 24:37........ 37 But as the days of Noah were so shall also the coming of the Son of man be 38 For in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark 39 and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefor; for you know not what hour you Lord doth come? 43 But know this, that if the good man of the house had known in what watch the thief would come he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Mathew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom be likened unto ten virgins, which took lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were wise and five were foolish. 3. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them; 4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 While the bridgroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him 7 the all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9 But the wise answered, saying , Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you; but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10 And while they went to buy, the bidegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage; and the door was shut. 11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord,open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Sorry if I have offended anyones ethnocentricity.

Noah.....What a nut? and Good lord? What the hell am I doing? Submit...........

-- robert j. (crandalls@cableone.net), December 11, 1999


Delete Delete

-- o (o@o.com), December 11, 1999.

Noah is a nut??? And you're not???I think a hub cap just fell off of your lawnmower!!

-- HUH??? (w@b.n), December 11, 1999.


It sounds like He's knocking. Open the door.

-- Thumper (waytruth@life.com), December 11, 1999.

Delete? Why? It's entirely on topic. While I do not share Robert's distrust of the Bible, I agree with his insights. The passages he quotes are most likely refering to Jerusalem in AD 70, but the principals are the same. Specifically, we are a "wicked generation" and God judges wickedness. Although Robert would probably argue that the judgment is, in fact, a self-inflicted Darwinian response of society to ensure the perpetuation of the species, the fact remains, there are great cycles in history. We may just see another such cycle . . . soon

Great post.


-- Zerad (zerad@msn.com), December 11, 1999.

Bold off

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), December 11, 1999.


This is a fine example of a post that not everyone will read because it's just too damn much work to do it. Try hitting the enter key, oh say every 2 or 3 sentences.

Maybe someone can summarize? I don't have the strength.....

-- (cavscout@fix.net), December 11, 1999.

It wasn't bold after all -- let's try --- if this fails I give up.

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), December 11, 1999.

robert: Thumper's got it right. Since the knock at the door is for you you probably oughta' open it.(or, of course you can leave it shut,and wonder until such time as is too late "Should I have opened it?")

on de rock

-- Walter (on de rock@northrock.bm), December 11, 1999.

Christ cannot come at this time, to do so would render his word a lie. The doctrine of imminence is false. It is an impossibility as certain events have not yet transpired. Paul make is patently clear, the antichrist comes first. We will also first suffer many things, including the mark of the beast.

Both of these events are reasonably close. The technology for an economic mark is here and in use now, it has not yet been implemented on a global scale. The Antichrist is also here - but I'm not saying who it is in this thread.

Y2K is indeed a midnight cry - but go back to sleeep. I GI, big time, but it's not the event that Christians are looking for. Forget the rapture, that is years away.

Y2K is going to bring about the dreaded mark of the beast, the cashless society. Not on January 1, 2000, but after the fallout of Y2K the economic solution offered is biometric chip implants. At the same time, we will have the Antichrist who will make this mandatory.

It is no accident that 2000 is an election year when considering timing of these events.

-- Jeff (Y2K@bible.com), December 11, 1999.

robert j.

Please do not post when you have been drinking.

-- Screamin' Demon (prepper@abouta4.com), December 11, 1999.

Robert, you sound like someone who really tries to think things through. So, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that the man,(for the life of me I can't remember his name!), who wrote the Rules of Evidence that is now standard in all courts of law was an atheist. He was so sick of Christianity that he decided to prove it false once and for all. He became a Christian. FWIW.

-- morgan (bitbybit@eoni.com), December 11, 1999.

There are several issues here although they overlap:

1. Y2K--it's real and society will possibly collapse due to a computer design flaw.

2. The existence of God--(everything is God--in God we live and move and have our being).

3. Religion and what we have been taught, which is not necessarily coincident with how God operates and is, frankly, suspect in many of the details given by those who do NOT know.

4. God's design for the world and for us--which is God's movement within us.

Yes, it's likely the end of our world as it has been and this is by God's plan--as everything is--and for our spiritual growth, not punishment--IN MY OPINION.

Forget little picky ideas of what God asks of us, etc. Pray to God and feel what he wants, try to surrender to His will. That's all each of us can do.

But believe me, if God wants society to tear apart, it will tear apart. Be prepared, if possible. If God doesn't want it all to come apart at the seams, it won't. I personally don't know what will happen or what God wants--do you?

-- Mara (MaraWayne@aol.com), December 11, 1999.

I almost didn't finish the question because of it's length, but it did hold my interest long enough to finish. I don't think it matters much whether a person believes that Y2K is judgment from God, that it signals Christs imminent return, or has any religious implications. If the boat is sinking, you look for a life raft......you don't stand there pondering the philosophical reasons for or the religious undertones of the current situation.

Most of the people reading this will have already prepared their raft (like Noah) and are awaiting the storm. God didn't create the Y2K problem, but as a merciful God, He has given warning. Much of the early warning to the whole world has come from Christians.....not as a tool of fear, but to get people off their behinds and into action. But, as human nature is, even many Christians DGI. It doesn't matter whether you are an espousing Christian or a devout atheist or somewhere in between....it is coming, and you'd better be ready.

In the bible, the book of Proverbs contains all the wisdom man will ever need for any situation imaginable. It doesn't matter whether you are a believer or not, wisdom for correct and profitable living is necessary and, when followed, works the same for Christian and non- Christian alike. Here is an example of wisdom for Y2K:

"A prudent man sees danger and takes refuge, but the simle keep going and suffer for it." Prov. 22:3

There are many more scriptures given for the benefit of man, but you can look for yourself.

I am definitely a believer...... <><

-- Kenin Marble (kenin17@yahoo.com), December 11, 1999.

Dearest Robert:

If you seek God with your whole heart, He will reveal Himself to you. as He promised. I praise you for your intellectual honesty.

You will be in my thoghts and prayers.

It's my contention that most Americans have been innoculated with a mild form of Christianity and are immune to the real thing! But God can break through those defenses.

A very helpful site for understanding the end times (which most students of the Scriptures believe we are in):


Now, the pseudo Christians or the ones lacking in knowledge might think that Y2K is the end, or that Christ will return then, but what is so ironic is that it can't possibly be that because Jesus said that only the Father knows that; not even Jesus knew. So a set date cannot be it.

Several prophecies (oops! - - hope I didn't scare you away! - ) have to be fulfilled before Christ returns; among these are the destruction and the drying up of the Nile (this is happening since the building of the Aswan High Dam), the re-building of the temple at Jerusalem (the Islamic mosque on the Dome of the Rock is there now on this site and is highly protected by the muslims - - but the foundation is being undermined by a spring under the mosque), and the Mystery Babylon quasi-religious city that controls the world's finances has to be built in Iraq. Most of the prognostications up 'til this century (when the Jews were returned to the Holy Land in 1948 in Israel) were not understandable because it was not yet 'the time of the end' when the books would be opened.

I won't quote all of the Scripture here; it is already quoted on the site I provided.

The Gospel is simple enough for the most humble person to grasp and profound enough to thrill the most intelligent when it is truly understood.

I know it is difficult in our technological age to think that something written so long age would apply to us. Another point: In reading the different passages you will see analogies to trees and horses, with Zechariah asking "What are these, Lord?", and God telling him what these strange things were that he was seeing. If they had been horses and trees Zech. would not have needed to ask.But this is getting so long that I think it would be better if yo uread it yourself.

I hope this doesn't get archived too quickly, because what you have posed is something for everyone to ask him/herself.

-- Connie Iversen (hive@gte.net), December 11, 1999.

Typos in my post:

thoughts, not thoghts

ago, not age

you read, not yo uread

posted, not posed


-- Connie Iversen (hive@gte.net), December 11, 1999.

My brain is stumbling over my fingers!

that site is:

www.tip.org, not www.tip/org


-- Connie Iversen (hive@gte.net), December 11, 1999.


You probably already have heard this but I thought you might find it interesting if you haven't. I beleive that "Mystery Babylon" is the United States the descriptions given(Jeremiah 50-51 and Isaiah 47 revelation 18) fit the United States to a tee The descriptions given require a great deal of stretching to be considered Babylon of Iraq. Also, Several years ago a man by the Name of Asher kuafman discovered that the ancient temple sight is acually about 100 yards away(on the Temple Mount) from the Dome of the rock, Right directly in front of the eastern gate they did some digging and found the tops of the ancient eastern gates revealing that the actual location is not whare the Dome of The Rock is sitting. So the temple could be built without disturbing the Dome. These discoveries make the return of Christ possible that much sooner. I believe in a pretribulation rapture that could happen at any time in the near future( All believers in christ at that time will be removed out of harms way) Jesus will gome back to earth a little over 7 years after the Jews sign a 7 year peace treaty with the anti christ. Some people will accept christ after the rapture takes place, but will have to go thru the 7 year tribulation period. Lots of differing oppinions on this.

-- Gambler (scotanna@arosnet.com), December 11, 1999.

Connie: Do you like to mudwrestle?

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), December 11, 1999.


Yes, I've heard that the U.S. is Mystery Babylon, but it doesn't fit most of the prophecies. Before I took Mr. Miller's class I believed that Rome was the city described because it sits on seven hills and has a religious connotation. I hope I don't offend any Cathoics here.

But I had to change a belief of - - make that 40 years, not 30 - - when Mr. Miller laid out the Scriptures. He did not give me that info on the Dome of the Rock, I read that someplace else, and of course it would be the Temple Mount that Christ returns to. On the pre-trib stand - - I know that Christians can disagree in a spirit of love, and that is what I would like to do. It says that those days will be shortened for the sake of the elect, but it doesn't say we won't go through it. This is where Mr. Miller drives somes startling assertions home - - he says we will be taken up to reign with Christ after a second atomic WW. It is so clear from Scripture if you really get into it. Please check out what he has posted at his site, for a complete telling of the end-times prophecies.

And Mr. King of Spain: I am 66 years old, happily married for 46 years and thought you'd be extremely busy mud-wrestling all those others to have time for anyone else! ;-)

-- Connie Iversen (hive@gte.net), December 11, 1999.

O.K. Church is out. You can go home now.

-- for real (for@real.com), December 11, 1999.

"Christ cannot come at this time, to do so would render his word a lie. The doctrine of imminence is false. It is an impossibility as certain events have not yet transpired. Paul make is patently clear, the antichrist comes first. We will also first suffer many things, including the mark of the beast."

Another who jumps to confusion...(1 John 2:18 KJV) "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."

Why don't you simply read the Bible and stop listening to Hal Lindsey and other nuts?





"So the temple could be built without disturbing the Dome."

THE TEMPLE HAS ALREADY BEEN BUILT!!! (1 Cor 6:19 KJV) "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"

(Jer 23:2 KJV) "Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD."

And learn the difference between Jews and Israel. There is a world of difference between the two. Ever looked in the back of your Bible and notice that there were two KINGDOMS? The Southern Kingdom of Judah which consisted of Benjamin and Judah, and the Northern Kingdom of Israel which consisted of the other ten tribes of Israel. If you do not understand this then you do not know the very basics of PROPHECY.

Israel is the Bride of Christ and It is given...(Rev 21:9 KJV) "And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife."

(Rev 21:10 KJV) "And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,"

(Rev 21:11 KJV) "Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;"

(Rev 21:12 KJV) "And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:"

Get it yet Saxon? Isaacson?

(Gen 21:12 KJV) "...for in Isaac shall thy seed be called."

What "religion" would Isaacsons accept? (Hosea 1:10 KJV) "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God."

It says it right there, the, "children of Israel shall be...sons of the living God." Christians=Israel and Gentiles can be grafted in.

End of Sermon!

Study, and stop listening to stupid money grubbing preachers.

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), December 11, 1999.


I beleive that "Mystery Babylon" is the United States the descriptions given(Jeremiah 50-51 and Isaiah 47 revelation 18) fit the United States to a tee The descriptions given require a great deal of stretching to be considered Babylon of Iraq.

If you read Daniel you will find the beginnings of Babylon the Great...(Dan 3:2 KJV) "Then Nebuchadnezzar the king sent to gather together the princes, the governors, and the captains, the judges, the treasurers, the counsellors, the sheriffs, and all the rulers of the provinces, to come to the dedication of the image which Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up."

(Dan 3:3 KJV) "Then the princes, the governors, and captains, the judges, the treasurers, the counsellors, the sheriffs, and all the rulers of the provinces, were gathered together unto the dedication of the image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up; and they stood before the image that Nebuchadnezzar had set up."

(Dan 3:4 KJV) "Then an herald cried aloud, To you it is commanded, O people, nations, and languages," etc.

Above is the beginning of beuracracy!

This is the beginning of Babylon the Great, and she has destroyed and enslaved people ever since. Remember Jesus said that wolves would creep in to devour the flock? It is US they are devouring. Get it! And understand it! Even Willie Nelson understood in one of his songs..."Living in the promised land..."


-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), December 11, 1999.

The church in China before the communist takeover was rather large and growing. It taught that the rapture would come before the tribulation, even going so far as to say that the church would be protected from all persecution. The communists began persecution (such a gentle-sounding word compared to what happened.) The church in general took this to be the great persecution, the great tribulation. Since the church was not taken out of harms way like the then current erronious teaching there, many fell from the faith and Christianity has had a hard time there ever since.

As has been said, civilizations have come and gone throughout history. When a civilization ends, death and destruction from whatever source is the general rule, not the exception. When our time comes, we will be little different. And if we think that we are the greatest or most advanced civilization that has ever been, we might be right, but boy is that arrogant.

Even so Lord, come quickly.

-- tree (thetrees@bigfoot.com), December 11, 1999.

I have been half heartedly studying bible prophecy for 15 years, and have heard most of the stuff that has been posted here tonight. My post wasn't intended to tell the person they were wrong, it was intended to give them another point of veiw. One of the things I have learned over the years is that I will never Know exactly how it's going to play out untill it is already done. I don't claim to know anything with certainty(except my salvation). Some of you that have posted to this thread act like you know exactly how it is going down. My advise to you is: keep an open mind as to what you believe because with time you will most assuredly change your veiws(prophecy) along the way.

-- Gambler (scotanna@arosnet.com), December 11, 1999.

The bible excludes a huge part of our Global population.

Eastern religions need their fair take on this.

How about Yang is out of control. (yin/yang)

Yang being: Greed,Wealth,Agression, Male energy,Porn,Pollution,anger,War,Pride,separation from others.

Yin being: Nature,peace,female energy,contentment,love

Christ return maybe symbolic of the return of Yin once yang implodes on itself ,which it always does.

-- d----- (dciinc@aol.com), December 11, 1999.

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