Pollys and trolls: if you are wrong

greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread

I have seen several threads where doomers are asked what they will do if they are wrong about Y2K. So it is only fair to ask our resident pollys and trolls the same question: If you are wrong about Y2K what will you say to your family; to anyone you talked out of preparing? Let's pretent it is 1/10/2000 and the lights have been out for 10 days. What do you say Cherri, Flint? Assuming you can imagine being wrong, remember, only imagining, what do you say to your family, friends or someone you talked out of preparing? I would really like to hear from any of you!

-- Mr. Pinochle (pinochledd@aol.com), December 10, 1999


Every competent adult is responsible for his or her behavior. When family or friends have asked about Y2K, I have provided sources of information from both sides of the debate.

I am always amazed at how many conservatives on this forum fall into the same trap again and again. Personal responsibility is not situational. If you have emptied your retirement accounts to fund your Y2K stronghold... don't come bellyaching to me later. If I am wrong about Y2K, I will accept full responsibility for MY decisions, but I utterly reject the notion that I am responsible for someone else's behavior. It is this wrongheaded thinking that has weakened the Republic and created a culture of blame and "victims."

An added note... I think the extensive preps discussed here provide a sense of false confidence. If we reach Y2K apocalypse, you had better be extremely well hidden. If not, your preps are simply sauce for the goose.

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), December 10, 1999.

It's rare I agree with Decker without enormous qualifications, but not this time. Agree on all counts. NO MORE VICTIMS. Even Koskinen has said enough that a person with brains should have "gotten it." My mother-in-law, a nice elderly lady and a moderate but serious GI, has pointed that out to me on numerous occasions. YOU are responsible for whether you have prepped or not: I'm not.

I would add that it is not surprising that those who brainstorm 9.5 to 10 spend a lot of time on the security aspects of this -- but COUNTING on preps in such a circumstance is indeed foolish. Prayer, followed by instant obedience to instructions, will be far more powerful, providing you have a listening ear at the critical moment.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), December 10, 1999.

I can't believe it, but in this case I find myself in absolute agreement with Mr Decker. The ultimate theme, PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, eloquently put forth. Thanks!

-- Irving (irvingf@myremarq.com), December 11, 1999.

"Prayer, followed by instant obedience to instructions, will be far more powerful, providing you have a listening ear at the critical moment."

AHHHHH! Finally...someone who has REAL understanding! Bravo BigDog!

-- TM (mercier7@pdnt.com), December 11, 1999.

WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT VICTEMS! If I was a polly or a troll what I could say to friends is " I was wrong". But what would I say to my 4 year old? SHE IS MY RESPONSIBILITY.

Once again the point is that pollys and trolls HAVE asked the question of what would a doomer say if he/she is wrong. But they have not been asked that question and I wanted to know mainly if they have any CHILDREN they are RESPONSIBILE for.

Doomers are prepared and hoping to be wrong. How can a polly with children be willing to be wrong??????????

I expected an evasive answer from a polly. Personal responsibility. That is what being a doomer is - taking responsibility and being prepared to be wrong.

-- Mr. Pinochle (pinochledd@aol.com), December 11, 1999.

In the final end is it important who is right and who is wrong. I remeber reading once in a book give up being right no one cares! lol

-- Susan Barrett (sue59@bellsouth.net), December 11, 1999.

'Doomers are prepared and hoping to be wrong'. Mr.Pinochle, you're bluffing us! No, sir, over the past few months doomers have shown themselves to be a very stubborn lot. No story about successful remediation, readiness or y2k compliance has landed here without being subject to the boring, old 'it's spin, it's meant to keep us in line, how can you believe them' rant.

And you call this 'prepared to be wrong'. Sorry, there is a large section of individuals who want problems if for no other reason to say, 'told ya so'.

You're missing a great game, bud.

-- Bad Company (johnny@shootingstar.com), December 11, 1999.

Bad Company -- Wrong, as you usually are. When "nine fingers" posted a great inside report about USPS, I thanked him immediately. This is one of those canards that Flint and others like yourself like to post for inexplicable reasons. The issue isn't the news, but the likely veracity of it. Even though "nine fingers" is anonymous, his bona fides have been demonstrated by months of posting (pessimistic, by the way) data that passes reasonable tests for "quality".

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), December 11, 1999.

Mr. Pinochle:

I haven't seen these threads you mention wherein pessimists are asked what they do if they are wrong, but you ask:

"Let's pretent it is 1/10/2000 and the lights have been out for 10 days. What do you say Cherri, Flint? Assuming you can imagine being wrong, remember, only imagining, what do you say to your family, friends or someone you talked out of preparing?"

You must be a new poster here.....meaning newer than I (June of 1999). Cherri, Flint, Ken, [can I name the folks on Debunkers also?] have already expressed at one time or another their ability to see themselves and their families through a possible emergency situation. I've seen none of these folks attempt to "talk folks out of preparing in whatever way they see fit." I sure know I haven't.

What was your point again?

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.com), December 11, 1999.

Bad Co: Why don't you answer the question?

-- Pinkrock (aphotonboy@aol.com), December 11, 1999.

Ken is correct. But, Ken is in no way a Polly. Oh, sure, he talks some polly talk, but he never walks the polly walk. At best, Ken is a closet doomer; not doomsaying much, but prepared for any contingency. Newbies pay heed. True doomers may pick a middle of the road scenario as the most probable outcome, but are prepared for and will not be surprised by any outcome.

One of the interesting things about life on this planet is that you never can tell what will prove to be adaptive until after the fact. But environmental changes occur episodically, and often catastrophically. Adaptation involves coping with change. Be prepared to adapt or die.


-- Pinkrock (aphotonboy@aol.com), December 11, 1999.

I feel almost obligated to respond here. More than likely, they have discussed their beliefs with family and friends at sometime. Obviously, they were neither disuaded one way or the other. Because they still don't GI. How can any rational human being not recognize how many intricate layers of society we have, even giving it a half of a moments thought. Folks, it is not going to be pretty, at least acknowledge that. Prepare, Prepare, Prepare, sorry to sound like such a doomer, I guess it's one of those, "Call a spade as a spade"

-- Michael (michaelteever@buffalo.com), December 11, 1999.

Typical of you y2k wackos, trying to spread fear and panic again. It is obvious to rational people what your motive is - you actually want this kind of chaos, you actually want to see other people come to harm. This is why you are so despised by society. The rest of us know nothing's going to happen - it's all just a fairy tale made up by y2k wackos - a fairy tale they are actually hoping will come true.

-- callmemistermaretta (rrmaretta@mindspring.com), December 11, 1999.

I found this forum in Jan.,1999. I lurked until July before posting any response. I asked question 2 or 3 times.

In one year I have read so much crap from pollys and trolls, that does not include Flint. I disagree with him but he does not insult those who disagree with him. Ken is like Flint. They present arguments. they present some facts. Most pollys do not do that. Some pollys have been banned. Rightfully so.

I do not care who is right or who is wrong. That is not the question. How can anyone support a position where if they are wrong the people they love and are responsible for could die? Even if you do not think anything will happen, how can you take that chance?

Asking what a polly would say if they are wrong is asking how can they take that chance. As hard as it is for me to think Y2K is real it is harder to believe that people who are aware of what could happen will not prepare in any way AND will attempt to disuade others from preparing. Please explain this to me.

-- Mr. Pinochle (pinochledd@aol.com), December 11, 1999.

Mr. Pinochle:

I read your latest reply and you still don't seem to "get it." I AM one of the resident pollies referred to in your original post on this thread. To WHOM exactly are you referring if not myself or the folks I have mentioned? WHERE has anyone discouraged anyone from doing whatever they felt necessary?

The definition of a polly on THIS forum is ANYONE who sees Y2k as a manageable problem. I don't CARE if you prepare for a 10+, and I've even gone so far as to help you do it:

Y2k preps for the Complete Idiot - Part I

Y2k preps for the Complete Idiot - Part II

Y2k preps for the Complete Idiot - Part III

What IS your point? If your point is that this forum has trolls, EVERY forum has trolls. When you start lumping folks who see Y2k unfolding in a manageable way with trolls, you've reduced yourself to the status of brett@miklos.org...who has nothing of consequence to add yet thinks that anyone who doesn't see Y2k unfolding as Infomagic should be deleted.

Geez this stereotyping has me bugged.

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.com), December 11, 1999.

While i have not read enough of the other pollys to be sure of their personal stances, i do believe i understand Mr. Deckers.It is to prepare beyond the scope of many he calls doomers while pointing out how crazy the doomers are. If nothing much happens he can take plaudits for being correct. If very bad things happen he is prepared and will loudly proclaim he never prevented anyone else from doing as he did.Somehow that seems most two faced and morally empty. Mr. Decker, if you have not prepared beyond a three day storm i owe you a great apology. If you have then you do not deserve one. Noone P.S> I do not think the world will end. i do expect some nasty times when the totally unprepared are caught in a temporary but very difficult situation

-- Noone (Noone@none.com), December 11, 1999.

The POINT Anita, for those too dense to YET "get it", is that people who are PREPARED for Y2K can AFFORD to be wrong. Stored food can still be eaten, stockpiled cash can be re-depostied, lanterns can still be lit, generators can still be used for power outages, etc., etc. Yes, it may be true that by preparing for an event that turned out to be nothing, money could have been otherwise spent or invested. But, the point (again!!!) is that the price for being wrong is AFFORDABLE.

People who DO NOT prepare for Y2K, because they are confident that there is nothing to prepare for, CANNOT afford to be wrong. The price for NOT being prepared if Y2K results in extended power outages, municipal water/sewage system failures, etc., is NOT affordable.

Gawd! It doesn't get any simpler than this.

3 more weeks. When will she get it? 3 more weeks. Why can't she comprehend this? 3 more weeks....

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), December 11, 1999.

Mr Pinochle, I guess I am another one of the Pollys who do not believe that Y2K will be TEOTWAWKI. I do not intend to enter the argument of the extent of preparation that each person or family should undertake, as I agree fully with en Decker, that it is up to each individual to look after their own welfare. However I shall try to answer your question as to what I will say if I am wrong.

First, I have never tried to talk anyone out of preparing, so I have nothing to apologise for, but I will probably take the same stance I did recently when we had a major flood and out towns water supply as contaminated for almost 3 weeks.

I shall say come to our place and help yourselves to as much water from our well as you need. Feel freeto use our bathroom if you want a shower with uncontaminated water.

I shall tell friends to come to our town where the power is still on. (Yes, I can guarantee that our whole district will have power even if I have to manually run a generator and do the switching mself). I shall invite friends to share our BBQ, to come fishing, and hunting. Actually I can almost see myself hoping that things do turn bad, it sounds like fun. But unfortunately, I don't believe anything serious will happen, and it will just be another lazy hot summer.


-- Malcolm Taylor (taylorm@es.co.nz), December 11, 1999.


YOUR point and Mr. Pinochle's point are NOT one in the same. Mr. Pinochle stated that there were resident pollies on THIS forum that were dissuading folks from doing whatever they felt required.

I'm still waiting for someone to point me to an instance of that. Can YOU?

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.com), December 11, 1999.

Pinkrock, I answered the question yesterday in the mornic posting about me via Ohio Bob. Big Dog, you make me laugh."the news isn't the issue'?????? Do you really believe the schlock you right? I mean, are you saying that it is philosophically alright to continually downplay the news about positive remediation, etc, no matter the source? And in terms of 'veracity'---do you mean 'validity'?

Dog, you illustrate nicely the entire problem with one paragraph.

-- Bad Company (johnny@shootingstar.com), December 11, 1999.

Not one answer to the original question. Not surprising.

-- Mike (Stillnoanswer@thistime.com), December 11, 1999.

Anita: Fine, whatever.

3 weeks, 3 weeks, 3 weeks...

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), December 11, 1999.

OK, Mike, you ask a legitmate question. I have hedged my bet. I honestly do not think Y2K will be anything approaching TEOTWAWKI. This is the deduction I've made after 2+ years of reading.But I've made a few months worth of preps.

I've told my family about the possibilities, about what 'could' happen and what I 'think' will happen. Will I be surprised if all hell breaks loose? Yes. Will I admit as much? Yes. Have I thought about how I'll take action should that be the order of the time? Yes.

Will I be surprised if nothing happens? Yes.

That's the best answer I can muster.

-- Bad Company (johnny@shootingstar.com), December 11, 1999.

Malcom: Can we come down to your place for a few weeks? We have a well and all that, but it's the beginning of winter here. Some nice summerey trout fishing sounds real good about now.


-- Pinkrock (aphotonboy@aol.com), December 11, 1999.

Anita? ...Oh, you're THAT Anita!

Do you refer to your 3 painfully long postings of typing up your grocery store receipts some months ago? Catchy title. I must make up for my lack of manners: Thank you for a hilarious read!

And you seem to know the Debunkers crowd. Hmmm. Figures.

-- no polly (nopolly@cracker.sorry), December 11, 1999.

Pinrock, You and anyone else on this forum would be welcome. I only wish that NZ was big enough to take all the people in USA who would like to come over, but unfortunately that just isn't the case.

It is probably because of my location, and the fact that NZ as a whole is less likely to suffer from any Y2K induced problems that I am this optimistic. I probably wouldn't be if I lived in a large city. :-)

-- Malcolm Taylor (taylorm@es.co.nz), December 11, 1999.

Personal Responsibility is nice, but responsibility does not stop there. There is responsibility to your family, neighbours, community, state, country, planet and everybody on it.

Yes begin with the Personal, then build from there.

Regards, Simon

-- Simon Richards (simon@wair.com.au), December 12, 1999.

Malcom: A very gracious invitation, Thank You. Perhaps in the not-to-distant future we can take you up on it. NZ is at the top of my world-travel list. Alas, for the rollover, we must stay on the farm. The neighborhood and the extended family both are depending on us for support.

I have a fair amount of confidence in our local power plant to continue functioning. It is an older coal fired plant, built right on top of its own coal mine. The field engineers I talked to said they were fairly confident they could isolate the plant, and the local distribution network if necessary. Question: If harmonic distortion or resonance starts destabilizing the grid, and they are not able to isolate the generator, is this where catastrophic equipment damage can occur? These fellows seemed confident that their equipment would not produce such problems, but indicated their concern was the numerous small (deregulated) independant power producers, and the potential for them to introduce instabilities that could cause the dreaded cascading fail

-- Pinkrock (aphotonboy@aol.com), December 12, 1999.

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