I was just curious of the background of the people who read these and respond. If you don't mind, just like to know where (state) and what's your role in the local congretgation (Min./Y.M./C.E./etc.) I'm not going to do anything funny with the info.....just wondering because I see the same names over & over. How many people check these out; is there a counter?

Jason Fields Associate Minister of Youth Missouri

-- Anonymous, December 10, 1999

Answers

Brother Lee....

A hearty AMEN to your thoughts on youth ministers.

Of all the things that cause me disgust, constantly listening to parents who gripe and complain because "we don't have a youth minister" is right at the top of my gag list (forgive the scholarly lingo).

Then, of course, ultimately they take their ball and go somewhere else where there is a "pizza and pop" youth minister to shove 2 hours of spirituality down the kids throats to make up for what the parents are not doing.

And yes....this is a carry over from society. People send their kids to public school and expect them to work miracles....good grief....why should the church be any different.

Now....don't get me wrong...I have no problem with a youth ministry position (or an evangelist to youth). However, I am fed up with cry baby, X-generation parents who want the thrills but none of the resonsibility of raising children.

Sounds like another thread ought to be started.

Thanks for your thoughts Lee....and yes....there is a lot to your accusation of intellectual laziness as per reading responses....yours or anyone elses for that matter.

God bless!

-- Anonymous, December 17, 1999

Darrell......

Thanks for your response.

It is a perfect "experiential" post of the observations I made in my last post.

I think it might be better calling our "youth ministers" in many cases....."Baby Sitters."

Your ideas Darrell would be great.....in a perfect world.

But I think it would go over like.......a porkchop at a Jewish wedding.....in most churches.

My wife and I both fear many times......that culture has so permeated our churches almost to the point of no return.

Ours is a generation that wants "someone else" to make their kids turn our right. When our kids go astray....it's always the public schools fault.....the churches fault.....etc.

I wish I had a dollar for every time I have heard....."My kids are not in church now because our church never had anything for them when they were growing up."

By the way.....what does that mean....."Have something for them?" What is the church.......the Super Wal-Mart of programs??

We are looking for a youth minister right now in our congregation....but personally......I don't care if we ever find one.

I don't need one to raise my kids in the Lord....never have.

Maybe if we do for awhile without.....we'll find out who really wants an "equipping youth minister".......as opposed to a "baby sitter."

You know....it used to be that you could see a major difference between the kids "in church" and those "who don't go." Over the years....I've seen that difference diminishing.

Blame the church?? Nope. Public schools?? Well....we won't get into that.

Parents?? Most definitely!!!

Keep up the good work Darrell.....you never know....maybe you can start that new church off....the right way.

-- Anonymous, December 21, 1999

Brother Lee......

I'm sorry....I completely missed your post until this afternoon.

Anyway.....just wanted to say you are right on and there would not be an ounce worth of difference between your thoughts and mine.

I'm sure knowing you have my approval doesn't make a difference to you one way or another....ha!!!!

However, I say it to agree with you.....that this forum has been a blessing in seeing others such as yourself who care deeply for the church and the families that make up "the church."

By the way, one of the elders I serve with reads this forum regulary.....and he said to me this morning...."I like him."

There are some of us in the Christian church still........that refuse to give up the fort of the "faith once delivered" for the gospel of "what's happenin' now."

God bless!

-- Anonymous, December 21, 1999

Brother Lee.....

I apologize.....for somewhere along the line I did not communicate well.

I am not an elder serving in a church.....I am an evangelist......and have been for 15 years now.

Sorry for the mix-up.

-- Anonymous, December 22, 1999

Brother Lee....

In fact, in my last congregation I was asked to be an elder.

I declined....only....because I am perfectly content being an evangelist and feel my talents are in that area.

God's best to you!

-- Anonymous, December 23, 1999

Sam Loveall, Raleigh, NC (all volunteer)(co-)worship leader, teacher, fill-in preacher. Looking for worship/adult education ministry position.

-- Anonymous, December 10, 1999

I am the preacher at the Fort Des Moines Church of Christ in Des Moines, Iowa. I humbly prefer the title of holy-pastor-reverend- father Demastus though. Thanks.

-- Anonymous, December 10, 1999

Preacher with the congregation of obedient believers in Chiefland, Florida....

And moderator of this Forum. We are averaging about 80 hits a day. Most people do not post.... Just read the Daily Devotions, and keep current on updated threads.

-- Anonymous, December 11, 1999

Darrell H Combs, serving the Kingdom as Campus Minister at Indiana University of Pennsylvania, in Indiana, PA.

-- Anonymous, December 11, 1999

The evangelist at the Roof Garden Christain Church in Somerset PA. Went to Bible College at Central Christian of the Bible in Moberly MO.

-- Anonymous, December 11, 1999

Evangelist at Central Christian Church in Fort Lauderdale, FL.

-- Anonymous, December 11, 1999

Evangelist in Turlock, Califnia to preach the word, set things in order and ordain Elders. Currently laboring with Brethren at Sunrise Christian Church, in Turlock.

-- Anonymous, December 11, 1999

Children's minister at FCC of Cumming, GA. Atlanta Christian College.

Say, Scott from florida, do you know Scott Eynon preaching in that area?

-- Anonymous, December 12, 1999

Evangelist of the Shelby church of Christ, Shelby, Ohio. Graduate of Florida Christian College. Can't improve on brother Jack's description.

-- Anonymous, December 12, 1999

Apostle and Senior Minister of the Open Bible Church International, Massachusetts. Pioneer Church to New England.

-- Anonymous, December 12, 1999

Inasmuch as I often respond in this forum I will give an answer to your question. It is good that we should know each other. I am your Brother if you are in Christ Jesus our Lord. I am a Christian by God's wonderful grace that has been shed abroad abundantly through the gospel, having been obedient to the form of doctrine( Romans 6:17) delivered in the preaching of the gospel and thus purified my soul in obedience to the truth. (1 Peter 1:21-23). Having obtained salvation through the gospel of Christ I have been adopted into the family of God. ( John 3:3-5; Gal. 4:6,7). Being in the house or family of God I am therefore a member of the Church of the living God along with all who have been "born of water and the spirit". (1Tim. 3:15; John 3:3-5). I am therefore a part of the body of Christ which is the Church of Christ ( Eph. 1:22,23; Col. 1:18,24; Eph. 4:4; Matthew 16:16). Thus I am a mamber of the Church of Christ as are all Christians and am not a party to any sect, schism, division or denomination within that Holy and one body of Christ. Inasmuch as this body, or Church of Christ( Romans 16:16) is the "pillar and ground of the truth" ( 1 Tim. 3:15) I am, as a simple Christian, "set for the defense of the gospel" and therefore "contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints" (Jude 3) that we will not be "removed from the hope of the gospel" which is the hope of the resurrection offered by Him who was raised from the dead.

Having said all of the above and having read the command of our Lord to all those who would follow the apostles teaching( Matthew 28:19,20; Acts 2:42) I preach "Christ crucified" who is a "stumbling block to the world but the hope of eternal life to all who obey him. ( Heb. 5:8,9; 1 Cor. 1:17,18).

I worship with my fellow saints at the Church of Christ that meets in Hoover, which is a suburb of Birmingham, Alabama. I am not what some describe as a "pulpit minister". I work in the telecommunication business but I preach the gospel of Christ where ever I go and defend the truth when ever the opportunity presents itself to me. I am not paid to preach Christ though I belive firmly that those who give their lives to this work should be supported by their brethern in their work. They should be supported well! Those who stray from the truth of God's word should not be supported at all! I pray fervently that our Lord will grant wisdom to all who speak for Him. ( 1 Peter 4:11).

I graduated from Faulkner University and Southern Christian University both of which are located in Montgomery, Alabama. My major was the Bible. The word of God is still my "major" course of study. All else will fade away with the using but the word of God "lives and abides forever."

I appreciate the opportunity to fellowsip with all who are writing and responding in this forum. May we all come to the point that we will "speak the same thing and that there will be no divisions among us" ( 1 Cor. 1:10).

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, December 12, 1999

Thank you so much for all your responses! Good to hear from you all! Lee.....relax. Just an innocent question...no dissertation needed. I prefer simple replies to simple inquiries....."Brother In Christ living in Alabama" would have been sufficient. :) Have a blessed day all!

-- Anonymous, December 14, 1999

Brother Jason:

You wrote the following and singled out my response as follows:

Thank you so much for all your responses! Good to hear from you all! Lee.....relax. Just an innocent question...no dissertation needed. I prefer simple replies to simple inquiries....."Brother In Christ living in Alabama" would have been sufficient. :) Have a blessed day all!

I do not know why you ask me to relax. I have no stress or tension at all. I said nothing about your question being anything but innocent. In fact I responded with the idea that your question was innocent and felt free to say whatever I wanted to say with as many words as I desired to use. After all I do not think that I was using any of your paper or wasting any of your resources. My reply was as innocent as your question. I saw it as an opportunity to openly express myself freely to one that sincerely wanted to know something about those of us who write in this forum.

Your inquiry was a simple one and so was my reply. Anyone who knows what a dissertation is would not genuinely believe that my response was anything near to being such. It just said a little more than you wanted it to say. Why do you not just tell us, in advance, that we have a limit on the words that you will accept? Then those of us who are less talented writers, who have not the ability to read your mind nor the capability to be concise, can then know in advance that we are not worthy to respond to your extremely simple inquiries.

It seems that we have located a contributing factor to the lack of scholarship among us today. So many with such strong aversions to reading anything longer than a paragraph cannot be conducive to producing scholars among us. You do not like to read. That is fine. I am not a good writer and that is a fact. But I did respect you enough to at least attempt, with my feeble talents, to respond to your question. I suppose that you appreciated most of all those who wrote nothing because silence is more brief, concise and less troublesome than any response.

Maybe you should just take your own advice and relax. No one is out to persecute you with lengthy responses that require more reading than you are inclined to do. You do not have to read those who exceed your unspecified limits and requirements of your simple inquires. I certainly will do my best not to stress you with any more replies to your simple inquiries. I will respond to anything that I consider to be error that I find in this forum but I will ignore your pretentiously friendly but simple inquires.

I pray that Lord will bless you and give you peace.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, December 15, 1999

hmm, ah, Lee:

Ecclesiastes 6:11 - "The more the words, the less the meaning, and how does that profit anyone?"

-- Anonymous, December 15, 1999

Lee, I think you did just fine and I enjoyed reading your information.

-- Anonymous, December 15, 1999

Mark:

I now quote your words:

hmm, ah, Lee: Ecclesiastes 6:11 - "The more the words, the less the meaning, and how does that profit anyone?"

Would your non-words, hmm, ah have more meaning than your words and thus be more profitable simply because they are concise than the very passage that you have quoted? Would they fall in the category of giving any profit to anyone? Just something for you to think about!

Your response is excellent! Simply quoting the word of God without comment is without doubt the most powerful and surely the most effective way to express and expound the will of God. I will try to be more concise for the wisdom found in the passage you have quoted is my ideal goal.

Is it possible that the writer of Ecclesiastes could have expressed this wisdom with even fewer words? I can just hear Brother Jason recommending something like,  More words, less meaning, no profit. to be sufficient. Is it not possible that when one has said enough to express his meaning such that one word less would completely obscure the intended meaning and one word more would be merely empty excess he has faithfully followed the sage advice of Ecclesiastes 6:11? And is this not true whether the number of words used was a paragraph or a dissertation? If, therefore, I wrote a dissertation and I was satisfied that nothing more or less would effectively express my intended meaning could I not then feel that I had written something that has, at the very least, the potential to be profitable?

I sense that the aversion in this forum to lengthy post has less to do with our readers being concerned about the teaching of the word of God in Eccl. 6:11 than with the fact that we do not want to do the work. A sufficient response to a lengthy train of thought would require effort. However, I just cannot understand why anyone would be so concerned with the length of any post in this forum. If you prefer 60 second sound bites then read only 60 second sound bites and leave the more detailed articles and debates to those who are up to the task of lengthy discussion and reasoning in detail. It is the readers choice.

My post in this thread was not unnecessarily lengthy in my view. Those who said nothing in response to Brother Jasons question were the ones who truly followed the advice of Eccl. 6:11. Brother Jasons question itself was not even necessary or important. He was merely trying to satisfy his curiosity. Therefore his posing the question and all responses to that question, regardless of the number of words used, was not profitable in the sense of the passage that you quote. Thus to single my comments out as being the only ones that were unprofitable because the response was too lengthy is based on something other than mere concern for the multiplicity of words. If I were someone that Brother Jason knew and highly respected who held generally similar views as his in this forum I doubt if he would have complained of how much space I used in my response.

Be all of that as it may, If you and others do not like what I write that is fine, but do not ask me to respond to your questions. Just be honest enough to tell me that you would prefer that I take my comments and my arguments and my poor witting ability elsewhere for they are not welcome here. Do not pretend that you are asking a friendly question that all are welcome to answer as they see fit and then attack them for not answering the way you would prefer them to answer. Such behavior is simply hypocritical.

But you are correct in what you have said from Eccl. 6:11. Following this sage advice would eliminate a large percentage of the questions asked in this forum as well as encourage poor writers, like myself, to be more diligent to improve our skills and learn to be concise.

I thank you for the encouragement from the word of God. I pray that our Lord will abundantly bless you in His service.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, December 16, 1999

Nelta:

Thank you for your response and your kindness. You and I have often disagreed with each other but you still are able to grant me kindness and respect. This attribute that you possess is admirable and worthy of imitation by all of us who follow Christ. Let us discuss things with Language as strong as we can muster, whether our post are lengthy or short, but in all things let us have the kind of charity that you have shown toward me in your kind remark concerning my poor attempt at writing in this forum.

Thank you. I pray that our Lord will abide with you and increase and strengthen your faith in Him.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, December 16, 1999

"'Meaningless! Meaningless!' says the Teacher. 'Everything is meaningless!'" Ecc 12:8

...since we are quoting Ecclesiates...

...but the writer goes on to say...

"Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body. Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgement, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil." Ecc. 12:12b-14

Brother Saffold,

We at Freed-Hardeman when hearing the name of Alabama Christian College (now Faulkner University) used to mutter under our breaths: "...buncha liberals!" :-D 'Course we used to say the same thing about Lipscomb, Pepperdine and Abeline. In fact, I think we said that about everone else except for Harding. (We sent our Graduate students there.) heh heh heh

Howdy Neighbors! I'm simple-minded Nate Graham filling a Support Staff position at Christian Church in the Wildwood, Weeki Wachee, Florida. I pray that the Lord is causing all of your ministries to grow, physically and spiritually! GB & TTFN! :-D

His truly!

-- Anonymous, December 16, 1999

Brother Graham:

Only those who attended either Alabama Christian or Freed-Hardeman can appreciate the humor of your statement that upon hearing the name Alabama Christian College the students at Freed-Hardeman would mutter under their breaths,  buncha liberals! Ha! I enjoyed that very much. I have not laughed so hard in weeks! I am sure that most true liberals would not find it so amusing to be placed in the company of those of us who graduated from and still adhere to the truths taught at both schools! We never used the term Liberal or Conservative at Alabama Christian. We always boiled it down to the less relative and more accurate terms faithful and unfaithful. Defenders of the faith and false teachers were our favorite labels! I must tell you that we always considered Freed- Hardeman among the faithful defenders of the faith against false teachers. Brother Thomas Warren was always a delight to hear when he came to speak at our lectureships. Many of our graduates went to Freed-Hardeman to complete their degrees. I do not know much about how things are today but I hope that this love and respect for each other and the stand for the truth at both schools has not changed.

Now I know that you have noticed the complete misuse of the teachings of the book of Ecclesiastes in this particular thread. Such is embarrassing coming as they do from those who should know better. Surely it is true that the writing of many books has no end and there is nothing in the Book of Ecclesiastes that indicates that such writing should have an end. And if one reads the entire book he can clearly see that in comparison to doing the will of God EVERYTHING is meaningless not just my feeble attempts to write in this forum. Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all [is] vanity. (Eccl. 1:2.) I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all [is] vanity and vexation of spirit. (Eccl. 1:14). How about this one, For in much wisdom [is] much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. (Eccl. 1:18). Since even wisdom itself is the source of much grief and sorrow are we therefore to conclude that we are to avoid it? Try this one for those who see mirth during this season of the year as a good thing, I said in mine heart, Go to now, I will prove thee with mirth, therefore enjoy pleasure: and, behold this also [is] vanity. (Eccl. 2:1). Try this one on for size, Then I looked on all the works that my hands had wrought, and on the labour that I had laboured to do: and, behold, all [was] vanity and vexation of spirit, and [there was] no profit under the sun. ( Eccl. 2:11). Are we to conclude from this that we should stop all of our labor that we do under the sun? Therefore I hated life; because the work that is wrought under the sun [is] grievous unto me: for all [is] vanity and vexation of spirit. (Eccl. 2:17).

So you see if one wants to use verses out of context from Ecclesiastes he can just about condemn everything under the sun. But when these things are placed in the proper context of being compared with doing the will of God and obeying His commandments then we can see that everything is vanity and vexation of Spirit unless it is done in obedience to the will of God. When compared to doing the will of God this forum itself is meaningless. So, are we to conclude that we should not have these meaningless discussions in this forum? If God does not motivate us to write and discuss His word in this forum and if we are not striving to draw near to him together then this forum is, in itself, useless. I am convinced that this forum only has value because God is the center of our discussions.

If we live, we must live unto the Lord. If we die we must die unto the Lord. Whether we live therefore or die we are the Lords.  Whatsoever ye do in word or deed do all in the name of the Lord Jesus giving thanks to God the father through Him. (Col. 3:17). If we leave God out of all these things that we do then all of Life is meaningless and is vanity and vexation of spirit. A life, no matter how successful in the eyes of men, that is lived without God as the source, cause, and primary motivator of every thought, act, ambition and labour is without doubt useless. Now that is clearly the message of Ecclesiastes. So using these passages to condemn someone for the amount of space and the number of words he used in his feeble attempt to offer a response to a simple question is an absurd trifling with the very words of God. Such trifling is vanity and vexation of spirit. It also is useless for God is not the source of such reasoning and apparent disrespect for His word. I do not think that such playful irreverence for the scriptures was your intent but I hope that you can agree with me that we should not play with the word of God in this way.

I pray that God will bless you abundantly through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, December 17, 1999

Professor Saffold, In your message rebuting my response to your initial dissertation, you stated...."I will respond to anything that I consider to be error that I find in this forum but I will ignore your pretentiously friendly but simple inquires." Looking through the posts, it appears as if you have rarely found anyone without error; all except people who say you are correct or compliment you. Intellgent, intellectual input is great to read and stimulates thought and growth. However, I believe you simply like to argue with everyone about everything. For a man who seems to have plenty of scriptural knowledge, seems rather shallow. And about that second part of the quote...."but I will ignore your pretentiously friendly but simple inquires."

Look forward to see your next multiple posts! :)

United In Christ, (hopefully) Jason

p.s. Have you ever helped fire a pesky Youth Minister?

-- Anonymous, December 17, 1999

Brother Jason:

I now quote your words and offer a response to them as follows:

Professor Saffold, In your message rebuting my response to your initial dissertation, you stated...."I will respond to anything that I consider to be error that I find in this forum but I will ignore your pretentiously friendly but simple inquires." Looking through the posts, it appears as if you have rarely found anyone without error; all except people who say you are correct or compliment you. Intellgent, intellectual input is great to read and stimulates thought and growth. However, I believe you simply like to argue with everyone about everything. For a man who seems to have plenty of scriptural knowledge, seems rather shallow. And about that second part of the quote...."but I will ignore your pretentiously friendly but simple inquires." Look forward to see your next multiple posts! :) United In Christ, (hopefully) Jason p.s. Have you ever helped fire a pesky Youth Minister?

I cannot imagine why you would call me professor. I do not have the background or the credentials to be referred to as a Professor in the sense in which you appear to be using that term in reference to me. I doubt very seriously if you have truly looked back through the posts given your apparent strong aversion to reading anything longer than a paragraph. In fact, it has been only three days since you started this argument with me and every one knows that you could not have read all of my post, not to mention the arguments in their context, during the past three days unless you did little of anything else. This alone makes your judgement concerning them at least suspect. I will simply state that you are not correct that I have rarely found anyone without error in this forum. Though it is correct that I have rarely responded to anyone without error in this forum. That fact is a shame for those who are writing in this forum if my judgement concerning their being in error is correct. You will notice, if you can muster the energy to read anything longer than a paragraph, I was not the only one to consider those with whom I have disagreed to be in error. I merely joined with other voices condemning the same errors. If my judgement is not correct then why dont you take up their defense and show me any that I have accused of being in error that were not, in fact, in error. If you can correct me on any of them I will apologize to them and correct my error as well. Otherwise I have been correct to note their error and make the effort to correct it.

Now your belief that I simply like to argue with everyone about everything is a fine statement to make but not so easy to prove. In fact you offer no evidence that such is true. I would honestly prefer to agree with everyone but I cannot agree with anything contrary to the truth of Gods word. If I have disagreed with anyone and you can show me that I have been in error in reference to our discussion I will be glad to make immediate amends and correct my error. In fact you are an example of someone that I sought to cooperate with in this forum. You asked a question and I gave an answer. But you just could not accept the fact that I responded to you without any critical remarks and sought to start an argument with me over how many words I should have used in response to your question. In fact, my response to your question contained not one single word of disagreement or criticism at all toward you. It does appear, therefore, that you are the one who likes to argue.

When I said that I would ignore your pretentiously friendly but simple inquires I meant it. But I will not ignore your post directed toward me. Though I will ignore those simple inquires such as the one you asked in this thread which was for no greater purpose than to satisfy your curiosity. I was mainly referring to your pretentiousness. Any serious inquiry that has substance I will notice if I have the time.

As to your absurd question found in your PostScript,  have you ever helped fire a pesky youth minister? I can only wonder why you ask it? Are you paranoid that someone is out to fire you because you pride yourself in being pesky? I personally do not find you to be pesky. I rather find anyone who is -as you appear to be- proud of being "pesky" to be pathetic as any kind of minister. But pesky you surely are not.

But rest assured that I have never had anything to do with firing any kind of youth minister. Where I worship we recognize the fact that God has ordained that parents should be the directors of the youth and that youth directing is the responsibility of the family and not the church. (Eph. 6:1-4). Fathers are the ones who are responsible and will be held accountable for the direction of the youth in their family. Therefore we do not have a youth director to fire and if we had one I would not do anything to have him fired. I may question the scriptural authorization for such a position in the church but I would not seek to fire a young man trying to be of service in Gods kingdom. I would rather encourage him to do the work of an Evangelist and urge the brethren to support him EXTREMELY WELL in that scriptural work and contribute to his support myself. Here in our congregation we train young men to preach the gospel rather than direct the youth. Parents, who cannot be hired or fired or PAID handle the direction of youth. These parents cannot escape their God given responsibilities here by shuffling it off to a youth director who often is nothing more than a youth in need of direction himself.

I pray that our Lord will bless you as you seek to do His will in all things.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, December 17, 1999

Brother Danny:

I appreciate your response. Thank you for your supportive comments. I also appreciate your observation that there would be nothing unscriptural about an Evangelist to Youth. I agree with you completely provided that the Evangelist to Youth understands that his function is to evangelize rather than to entertain the youth. The Church of our Lord is not in the entertainment business. It appears that many parents have been using the so- called youth ministry as a baby sitting service that will keep their kids entertained and out of their way. They feel justified in this because a little gospel will be included some time after the pizza and Pop.

All of this is very different from the time when fathers would gather their children around the hearth in the evening after supper to read to them from the precious word of God so that their children could receive the instruction in the like precious faith of their parents. Christian fathers who have abdicated this responsibility to a pizza and pop youth director have sinned against God and their Children! For the youth minister will replace the fireside family devotional with fun and games and throw in a little inspirational devotional filled with quaint witticisms and emotionally stirring words devoid of scriptural content. A child will be allowed to mark time until he is old enough to attend a University where he will appear to lose the faith that he never possessed in the first place. Then, the parent will moan that his child has lost all interest in spiritual things and accuse the church of failing his child and blame the University for destroying the faith that never existed in the heart of his child. But in the judgement day God is not going to hold the elders of the church responsible for anything other than their failure to teach the Christian fathers to bring their own children up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. He will not hold them accountable for not having a special youth program designed to enable dereliction of duty among these negligent fathers. Neglect is the best means of provoking a child to wrath. It is no wonder that we see so many young people grow up to despise the faith of their fathers. They do not despise it because they once held it and have learned through intelligent examination that the faith was erroneous. They despise it because their fathers first despised it by not deeming it important enough to instill in their childrens hearts when they were young.

Now I do not say these things as an indictment of all fathers among us. For there are still fathers among us who teach their Children daily from the word of God. But these fathers are not hopping from church to church looking for a pizza and pop youth director to baby sit their children while they tend to more selfish concerns either! I am referring to those who act as if they can have no part of a congregation that does not have a youth minister.

For the above reasons and many others I share your disgust for parents who hop from church to church looking for the one that has the best youth program while they at the same time provide no program at home to instill the faith into their children! This seems to be the way we avoid being Christian while at the same time comforting ourselves that we believe in Christ. It seems as if the church is being programmed to death. Will we have no teaching of youth without the Sunday school? Will we have no training of young people if the church has no youth program? Will we have no evangelism if the Church does not provide for more services even though we, at the same time, cry for the elders to cancel Sunday night services because we no longer consider that God has mandated that we MUST attend on Sunday evening? The signal that we a sending to our children when we are so eager to neglect anything that we can safely determine is not required of us as a salvation issue is that we are Christians simply and only because we have no choice! God has forced this upon us. When children reach a rebellious stage they will demonstrate that God cannot force religion down their throats! I do not want to be understood that I am against any organized efforts of the Church under the guidance of the elders to do the Lords work. But substituting a programmed Christianity for the practice of Christianity is a deceptive wile of the devil designed to destroy our faith while allowing us to feel as if we are growing in it.

I therefore see this youth ministry in this light. It is spiritual busy work that substitutes for the actual work of bringing our children up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. (Eph. 6:1-4). The faith cannot be inherited like property rather it must be gradually passed down. A day missed in doing this for our children cannot be regained and no youth director, regardless of how good intentioned he may be, can do this task for us. One might as well start a church loan program where the church makes the weekly contribution for all the members who have more important things reserved for their money than the Lord's work as to have a youth program designed to bring up children in the admonition of the Lord for parents that have more important selfish concerns than to rear their children to know and love the Lord. For where will the church get the money to make weekly sacrifices for us? In like manner where will the church get the wherewithal to make individual spiritual investments in our children? No one can do this for us and the very idea of having someone to attempt it demonstrates our spiritual poverty with glaring clarity!

I must go back to work now. Brother Danny, I appreciate you so much for your thoughts and comments in this forum. I consider myself fortunate to have had the opportunity to meet you through this forum and I pray that the Lord will continue to bountifully bless you in His service. Let us pray that the day will come when all Christian fathers are enjoying the great privilege of reading the word of God daily to their Children. And that they will be sterling examples of what it means to practice those great precepts before their childrens discerning eyes. Let this replace the perceived need for a "Youth director" so that we can lead some of the young men to become evangelist to the youth in our communities to preach the blessed gospel of Christ to those who are not blessed with Christian fathers.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, December 20, 1999

A few thoughts from someone who has served as a "youth minister" or whatever the popular title might be today.

I wonder sometimes if our terminology gets us in trouble. If we have an "Evangelist to Youth" will the people around us in the congregation deem it that person's "job" to do the evangelizing of all the youth? I know this CAN happen with the evangelist in general. Since he is the evangelist, we're paying him to evangelize, and no one else has that responsibility. I understand it isn't to be that way, but too many times that's the way it comes about. And if we are not careful, the same can happen with youth.

I had the opportunity to serve for over three years with a congregation in Florida where I had the title Minister to Youth. Yet I saw my position there to be one of equipping the parents first and then the youth workers to be the true ministers to the youth. Things went fairly well until the church secretary started a "word of mouth" campaign (I think the Bible calls it gossip) to get me fired, since I wasn't "doing anything." I had put together and taught a couple of great junior church teams ... had more VBS directors than we needed, and was continuing in the pursuit of teaching or equipping others to do the ministry that was needed.

Once concept I drilled into the workers was that it was the parents responsibility to be the primary teacher of their children. We were to supliment their teaching, and in the case of non-Christian parents, or sadly, parents who would not do what they should, then we became the primary instillers of the faith.

When that came about, I would mention the parents to the elders, but for the most part, nothing was ever done about it.

Can, or should, congregations have a staff member dedicated to ministry towards children and youth? Each congregation needs to search within themselves and see what the answer should be. There might be the need for a "family minister" or ???? who would work towards equipping the parents to do what God has called them to do. Of course, if the preaching is biblical, and if the elders are doing the work of shepherding the flock as they should, maybe this would all be taken care of.

Darrell H Combs

-- Anonymous, December 20, 1999

Call it a family minister, youth minister, children's minister etc. . .Fact of the matter is, Minister. I am a children's minister but I am a minister. I must minister with the elderly at times. I constantly educate parents on their role as parents(sad as that sounds). I work with the teen group and some with the college students. Called to preach when needed. Its like an elder. They govern the whole church body and over see, but each may have a specific service - Missions, Worship, Financial, Youth/Children. . . As a minister I must minister to the entire church but my specific service is to the children and their families. I do not care what you call me I am dedicated to the entire church body. If a youth minister has to be named something else in order for them to work with the parents then there are some problems we need to address as youth ministers. We here at FCC have no rank. So to say there is no need for a youth minister is equal to saying that we need not a senior, preaching, whatever minister you happen to be. And amen about the elders, Darrell.

-- Anonymous, December 21, 1999

Brother Danny:

I appreciate your comments concerning youth Ministers. I also appreciate your complements and encouragement. For when one is lacking in talent as a writer he is always concerned if his intended meaning is being conveyed by his words. When someone confirms that he has been successful in some measure in expressing his thought it is extremely helpful and encouraging.

I can tell from your comments on the subject that there is not even an ounce worth of difference between us on this issue. Your comment, though humorous, that having your approval makes no difference to me one way or the other is far from correct! On the contrary, your approval is very important and significant to me for two very important reasons. Number one, you are an elder in the Lords Church. Anyone who possesses those high spiritual qualifications (1Tim. 3: 1- 11; Titus 1: 1-12) required of one whom the Holy Spirit has made an overseer of the  flock of God which is among you (Acts 20:28) has a maturity in the faith once for all delivered not common to everyone. Such would cause any faithful Christian to pause and reflect when such a one does not approve of his teaching. Second, Your demonstrated faithfulness to the truth in this forum has earned my confidence in your desire that all should know and obey the truth. Therefore, anytime that you question my position on any issue you can rest assured that I will immediately pause, reflect, consider, and question my position. Then I will either offer good reasons for continuing to maintain it or make correction if I find errors that prompted your disapproval or if I find errors that neither of us detected.

Now I would do the same for others but not with the same dispatch and promptness. For those who have demonstrated that they have more respect for their opinions than the word of God. Those who are trying so hard to break from all traditions, including those delivered by God through the Holy Spirit to the apostles and to us through their word, are suspect and they must with great effort persuade me to reconsider anything! The only tradition that they hold dear is the tradition that all traditions, especially those once delivered to the saints by the Holy Spirit through the apostles (John 13:16; 14:26; Heb 2:3,4), should be ridiculed until they are abolished simply because they are traditions! The fact is that the entire Christian faith, as delivered in the word of God, has become traditional over the last 2,000 years. Now Human traditions that make void the word of God (Matt. 15:6-9) such as the above mentioned tradition of abolishing all traditions even the traditions delivered by the Holy Spirit should all be rejected. We must contend for those traditions found in Gods word! Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. (2 Th. 2:15). I therefore have great confidence in you because you have shown that you hold to these traditions with great faithfulness. I thank God for you because of this fact and therefore will always pause and think again if I meet with your disapproval.

Learning from you that one of the elders with whom you serve said concerning me,  I like him, was very touching to me. To know that two godly men who are elders in the body of Christ care for me in this way is the best gift one contending for the faith could possibly receive. I am deeply moved by what seems on the surface to be such a simple thing. But when this simple appreciation is viewed in the spiritual light of men holding to the like precious faith in a day when so many have become shipwrecked concerning the faith the reason that no Christian could fail to be touched by it becomes evident. Express to him my brotherly love and tell him that I have been greatly strengthened and encouraged by him.

I like your comparison of the faith once delivered with the  gospel of what is happenin now! Very well put! Ha! I think you should expand on this comparison and give us the benefit of your results!

I do not want to embarrass you, but I read your wifes comments concerning you and how you balance your service to the Lord and your responsibilities to your family. She knows more than the preachers do in this forum about this subject. I know that she is aware that there is really nothing to balance for attending to your family is a primary part of your service to the Lord. It is just another trick of the devil that we must somehow choose the one over the other. Sure, when and if we are called upon to chose between protecting our family or deny the Lord we all know that we must already know that we have chosen Christ. All of our lives our family has heard of this choice and we have urged them to make the same choice. Therefore to chose our family over Him would be the grossest neglect of our duty to both God AND our family!

But I want to say that a greater compliment could not be paid to a man and a more authentic demonstration of his character could not be seen than to read words like those written by your loving wife. Her words beautifully describe the dedication to our Lord evident in your devotion to your family as apart of your service to Christ. Please relay to her that I was moved to read the words that she said about you. They only confirm what I had already suspected to be true about you.

I thank God for you Brother and I pray that he will bless you with strength, wisdom, and his divine presence in your labor for Him. For he did promise,  and lo I will be with you always. I pray that He will abide with you and your family always!

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, December 22, 1999

Brother Danny:

I apologize to you. I do not remember when or why I drew the erroneous conclusion that you were an elder in the church. It may have been somewhere in the confusion between "pastor or preacher" discussions. When some call preachers pastors, though I do not remeber you doing such, one can be confused. Ha! I am sorry.

However, the fact that you are an Evangelist instead of an Elder does not change the reasons for my willingness to review my thinking if you disapprove of anything that I affirm. I still have great respect for your faith and knowledge of the scriptures and my words were to indicate that I respect you highly and that it therefore does matter to me if you question anything that I say in this forum.

By the way, it seems that maybe you should consider being an Elder in the church.

I am sorry for my incorrect assumption.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, December 23, 1999

I have been involved in cult ministry for over 25 years, having grown up in a Mormon household, next door to a Jehovah's Witness (my father, a nominal Christian, married the Mormon lady down the street when my mother passed on to glory). I have studied the many cults in America as well as the New Age movement, wicca (witchcraft) and the occult, in the light of Christ. I have been involved with several counter-cult ministries, taught and held seminars in several churches, and have been both a teacher and a deacon in my own church.

I also spend time on the Internet witnessing and defending the faith (doing the work of an "e-vangelist") and talking about Restoration principles where appropriate, through e-mail and IRC chat, and I go by the online nickname "MrBatman." I have gained the respect of the owners of Chatnet's #Christian channel such that I have also been made an op[erator] (a channel overseer).

I currently am the author/webservant of my church's website (http://come.to/qhcc), and publish an online weekly column there, "According to John," where I share from past lessons I have taught, tracts and letters I have written, and Internet chats I've had, on a variety of subjects, often quite controversial. (I'm not afraid of wading into deep waters!)

-- Anonymous, December 29, 1999

Jason,

"I was just curious of the background of the people who read these and respond."

Just came by this forum today. My background? Kicked out of 3 churches because "If you want to continue to attend this church you must [bow] to the edicts of the "church". One church didn't like us doing Bible Study without a preacher there to [mis]guide us, and the founder of the Church was considered to be flawless. Not! Claimed he was the only one guided by the Holy Spirit. Not,again!

The other church would tolerate me if I would stop talking about this "Kingdom/Israel" thing. They told me, in a three man trial at the Pastors Office, to shut up or leave. I left.

"Don't want any controversy here." As if the Gospel of the Kingdom of God was not controversial.

I could go on but I forgot to pay my [syn]tax!

-- Anonymous, December 30, 1999

Mark, think on this.

Luke 6:22, "Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son if man's sake."

Another to think about:

Beware when men speak well of you.

The true Christian WILL be persecuted. "All those who live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted."

-- Anonymous, December 30, 1999

I'm from Arkansas, but living as a political prisoner in California until my wife decided to leave for a civilized state. I just started back to church about a month ago, and have felt better then I have in years.

However, I am in the process of trying to get back in touch with old friends for West Memphis Ark, and the Memphis area. I am trying to let them know I have changed. Hope they can forgive me for all my evil ways.

Glad to find this thing. Still trying to figure it out somewhat.

Best of luck to all.

Bud

-- Anonymous, April 23, 2001