Cross post - What will the military do?greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread |
Think about some of the ideas in this post. Those who care about patriotism and the Consitution cashed out or didn't join. This was always the true backbone of the military. What's left is political bootlickers and gender new frontiers types. So those with the big guns and the security of the United States. I joined at the end of Carter administration and went to boot camp with kids who where there because the judge gave them a choice. Lived through the turn-around under Reagan, and now see the buffoon in cheap selling us out.We are in trouble when we don't know who the real "enemies" could be, China and Russia. I hope there are enough patriots in the military to protect us.
-- Squid (Itsdark@down.here), December 07, 1999.
Yes, many/most of the military don't like/detest Clinton. Regardless, they will follow his orders. They have sworn an oath and he is their commander in chief.The words above would land said "patriot" in the brig facing court martial or worse...if we were on a war footing.
It would take some mighty convincing evidence to make every rank and file military person to "turn" on their orders. If this is as well planned as you say, then in all likely hood there will be an excellent reason for their actions. Remember, most of the sheeple will support the big guy too in such a scenario.
-- Ynott (Ynott@incorruptible.com), December 07, 1999.
Ynott, They've sworn an oath all right. BTW, I did too, a decade ago. The following is the oath taken by all personnel inducted into the armed forces of the United States, as found in the US Code, Section 502."I, _NAME HERE_, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
Notice the FIRST thing in the oath. "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic" How can you obey the orders of the President when those orders conflict with this phrase? Since you probably never sacrificed any time, blood, sweat, family, or tears supporting this country by joining the service I'll explain it to you.
There are such things as "Lawful" and "Unlawful" Orders. Now you are correct in that the military will follow Lawful orders, immediately and to the letter. But when a clearly Unlawful order is given, the service member can do three things: #1)Follow it blindly, and probably be prosecuted. Remember 1946 Nuremburg? "I was just following orders" is not a reliable defense. or #2)Follow it, then file a complaint with the chain-of-command and probably be prosecuted. You're no better off legally here than #1.
Or #3)Refuse to carry out the order and probably be prosecuted anyway.
#3 is the tricky one. It's clearly correct to refuse to commit a murder, but it's still disobeying orders and you'll probably be prosecuted anyway. But at least here, the jury will see that you tried to do the right thing. Six months in the brig or stockade and a dishonorable discharge is better than life in Leavenworth.
-- Powder (powder@keg.com), December 07, 1999.
Good evening all. I enlisted after high school, at the age of 17, in 1966. Volunteered for infantry and airborne and Vietnam; the whole shebang. I was willing to follow orders to the max. In 1969, when I was still 20, I was a SSG, with more than two years experience, leading 18 and 19 year old LRP/Rangers on missions in the HoBo Woods. I had learned to question orders, but those boys I was leading would do whatever I ordered them to do. Boy soldiers are and always will be boy soldiers. Don't believe for a second that many will refuse to obey their orders proudly when told to come after YOU. The wiser professional NCOs and platoon and company grade officers are gone, retired or forced out. They have been replaced by political animals who will tell those boys it is their duty to come after you. Terrible, sad times are before us, Y2K or no.Airborne all the way, Rangers lead the way.
Michael
-- Michael Frazier (mfrazier@pacific.net), December 07, 1999.
There are still some patriots and believers in the Constitution still in the military. Let's hope it doesn't come to a revolt against illegal orders. That would cause a societal rift unrivaled since the (un)Civil War.
-- Mad Monk (madmonk@hawaiian.net), December 08, 1999.
You are correct in that we have a "boy army"...."boy military" in fact. There is a reason that the military chooses "boys"...MEN wouldn't do the #@$$%# that they ask the "boys" to do! A MAN would question more and stand up for himself more and say NO more.That is why I agree with the previous writer that the army/military would indeed follow orders. Boys, generally do.
-- Ynott (Ynott@incorruptible.com), December 08, 1999.
I do agree with you on that, we have a gangsta/boy army. I failed to take into account the caliber of the minds involved here. I admit that I myself failed to realize the full implications of my oath until after I got out. I followed all my orders too, but I never got any unlawful orders either. I would not have followed an order to commit a murder, or any other immoral act. That doesn't mean I wouldn't have killed or done whatever for genuine military purposes.
-- Powder (powder@keg.com), December 08, 1999.
And I agree with YOU, Powder! Most of us wouldn't do today what we would have done at 18. Also the 18 year olds today are not the same as they were when we were young. Some branches of the military are having so much trouble recruiting that they are waiving the mandatory High School degree/equivalency and saying they will "educate" them when they are inducted...scarey...very....
-- Ynott (Ynott@incorruptible.com), December 08, 1999.