Hi all!

Here's a thought process (maybe) worth consideration:

Preparing for others may be seen as noble, but it seems to me that--since none of us knows for sure just how bad or how long the crisis will be--preparing for others is a moot point.

It seems to me that we ought to prepare for our immediate family, and those we are responsible for. Following that (if possible) we should prepare for extended family, then the church (through them the needy: fatherless, widows, incapacitated, etc.) Beyond that, you'd better be Donald Trump, for all the expenses!

I am not rich, and I am preparing--barr not expense or excuse--for my family. I know I cannot support neighbours and "wanderers", especially extended family who I've spoken to and been summarily ignored. When they--or anyone else for that matter--show up at my door, what will I do?

WHAT WILL YOU DO?

I don't know about you, but I must keep my stores for my family. I am not going to shove a shotgun at visitors, but I will not compromise the health and safety of my family.

SO THIS IS WHAT I'M DOING:

Making photocopies of local (city are area) maps, with locations of, and routes to, evacuation shelters highlighted. I've spoken with my local city clerk, who has advised me of primary and secondary shelter locations, as well as locations of backup power sources, etc.

I will give these maps out to all I cannot help, and turn them in the direction of help.

Has anyone else considered this quandry we'll all face?

-- (Kurt.Borzel@gems8.gov.bc.ca), December 06, 1999

Answers

Kurt,

How much does 160 lbs. of rice cost?

How much does a 160 lbs. of dried beans cost?

Now, compare that to how much your weapons and ammunition costs, which you're planning on using to defend yourself from those who you could be feeding instead.

Feed them instead of defending against them. The benefits are:

1) Peace of mind.

2) Guilt free.

3) Safety in numbers.

4) People working together as opposed to against one another.

5) Did I mention Peace Of Mind?

6) Sharing of resources. (You're not as prepared as you think.)

7) Sharing of knowledge. (You're not as smart as you think. Your neighbors have skills you'll need.)

8) Peace Of Mind.

9) As long as you have pleanty of food and water, you WILL NOT be able to turn away starving children.

10) Peace Of Mind.

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), December 06, 1999.

Kurt

That is a good idea, assuming Prince has a civic emergency plan that is effective.

GoldReal

Just happens that where Kurt lives is in northern British Columbia (actually central but they like to think north :o) and it can get really bloody cold in January. Not that I think the chances of power going off for an extended period of time for Y2K is high, an Ice Storm can shut down power for weeks. Even in the "north" there would be alot of folks that could not survive in their residences for any length of time if the temps are -30 or so. This leaves little option I am afraid.

A family that had a wood stove, light and water in a power outage could take in a few people but there would have to be a limit. To my knowledge there isn't an urban emergency program to deal with power failures in -30 or so. Thankfully this hasn't been needed, the Quebec power failure was in warmer weather. Still the personal grief was extencive. (Believe me there is a big difference between -20 to -40 C.)

In such situations the recommended action is evacuation of residences that have no heat. Survival in those conditions are not for the weak of spirit. I doubt that there are more than a handfull of the forum members that could survive with no heat in those conditions. To do so one must take it as a lifestyle shift that can be done but is very alien from the normal western life style.

In an apartment it would be impossible. Heat & light sources in apartments using flames creates an impossible hazard. Having a fire in normal weather is bad enough, but in extreme conditions water has a tendancy to freeze quickly so fighting fires is that much harder. Asumming that the power outage doesn't effect the water system. So obviously everybody out.

So one has to ask themselves what could you do? I would think that Kurts idea starts looking realistic. Now making a big pot of soup and bannock to take to the local shelter would be welcome also.

In Canada utility failure is not an option.

Keep your liners dry folks

-- Brian (imager@home.com), December 06, 1999.

goldreal:
I didn't read anything he was saying that pertained to him using weapons against others...how did you infer that? Lurn to reed!!

-- Jay Urban (Jayho99@aol.com), December 06, 1999.

Dear GoldReal:

160 pounds of this or that will feed the MASSES who will show up on the THIRD day for about 3 or 4 more days and THEN you are in TRUE trouble as there are MANY more than you have food for and you and your family are NOW in DEEP yogurt, and become wanderers yourselves, assuming you survive the masses TAKING what they want.

The HUMANE activity is EXACTLY what Kurt has suggested.

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), December 06, 1999.

My city refused to disclose to me where shelters will be. I wanted to know for a multitude of reasons. I suppose my cityhopes it won't need any shelters. They wouldn't even give me a list of past shelters, cause that might suggest they'll use them again. ugh.

-- Hokie (nn@va.com), December 06, 1999.

Hold it a minute. I am kind and sharing all my life but there is one problem here on sharing. The first time lets see one week has passed and a neighbor comes to your door begging for food. Ok you share some rice and beans about a pound of each and maybe a can or two of soup. How many in his/her family four you say. Ok now three days later same neighbor comes back you share again. By this time this neighbor told his neighbor you are sharing. Second neighbor shows up. You out of the kindness of your heart repeat the same.

Question? How long can you do this in three weeks or less everyone will know you are sharing. Now look for things to become ugly here. You are in a delema. You can continue to feed 70 or more percent of the town or city you live in or you can refuse. If you refuse by this time you have a mob moving in on you.

Sharing doesnt help unless you can share to the end. I heard on McAlvany's site the time of repair and normalcy if that, has been upgraded to thirty months.

If you start expect to finish. Otherwise think very carefully. Hunger can drive a person to murder if hungry enough.

RETHINK SHARING!!!!!

-- Susan Barrett (sue59@bellsouth.net), December 06, 1999.

Reasons to believe our society is sane --- few.

Reasons to believe our society is clinically insane --- many.

-- Ragnarok (elder@northern~eddas.edu), December 06, 1999.

As for sharing --

Think triage. Think reponsibility.

If you have a family, if you have children, will you be willing to lessen their chances by distributing your limited foodstocks to those who laid nothing by for themselves? Once your cupboard is bare, those others will be out of luck anyway, along with you.

But who knows -- maybe the Rainbow Bridge will appear.

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), December 06, 1999.

Knock, knock. Hi Mr. Jones, the power has been out for sometime now and I was wondering if you had any food you could spare for me, my wife and 4 kids. I remember you warning me a couple years ago that this Y2K computer bug could become a possibility, and I know you have stocked well for you and your family. We need water too, the water quit running today and we need water to drink.

Mr. Jones: It's too late neighbor, I don't have any food to spare nor any water to give to you. I recall our Y2K conversation 2 years ago, I remember you called me a wacko, and this is the first time we've spoken since that conversation. I heard on the CB that the BIG WHITE BUS will be picking people up at Broadway and 5th. Pack up your family and here's a preparation list of things to take with you. Yeh, neighbor, I feel for you, reality sucks.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), December 06, 1999.

This is one of the reasons that feelings can not take the lead here. You have got to have a plan and stick to it carefully. Any activity that can be traced to you will set you up for difficulties in the future (hungry people, desparate also). Give food under cover of darkness anonymously to the back door or by a back yard landmark (if dog present). Make sure you do not leave tracks. Also consider meeting with people in your neighborhood and doing team problem solving "How are WE going to deal with this???" Make sure everyone contributes something and make sure that people build a sense of neighborhood community (mutual protection plan). Every house hold has some bleach, some food, some material to contribute. Make a security plan. If necessary, close off the road into your neighborhood.

The scenario in which a lone family tries to exist on its rations amid starving neighbors is exactly the picture you do not want to develop in your situation. Go to the local feed store and buy corn 50 # for $6.50, Red Wheat 50# for $12, Soy Grits 25# $11 (total of about $30). Use this in a 2 part corn, 2 part wheat, 1 part soy ration. Soak, par boil, roll flat, dry. A little molasses to taste (also from feed store). This will feed you for a good long while as a protein balanced bread stuff. Your neighbors also. Sprout seed for fresh greens and vitamins.

What do potatoes cost? They have vit C in the skins. Buy a few hundred pounds. What would it cost you? They keep.

The issues are a matter of survival not haute cuisine. If you take the lead in your neighborhood then you can control the agenda or at least guide it. Do not let your neighbors come to your house looking for food. Instead make sure they feel there is a plan and an avenue for working together. When your survival matters to them and their survival matters to you then you will be much, mcuh better off.

-- ..- (dit@dot.dash), December 06, 1999.

This is a very good example of "damned if you do and damned if you don't". There is no right answer to this question - it will be a reflection of how you have lived your life. There is certainly something to be said for watching out for your family, but can you imagine camping out in your house for three months? After two weeks, you'll be the only one left in your neighborhood (if you live in a city or the suburbs), with your black-out curtains and bundled in sleeping bags, because you don't want to reveal your presence by having a fire in the fireplace.

I shared Kurt's approach until last week. Now I'm in GoldReal's camp. If my neighborhood doesn't make it together, I doubt if my family will make it alone. I've decided that to approach this transition from a place of fear perpetuates a world I don't care much for. I'd rather live three weeks helping than three months hiding.

-- Dil Emna (livin@insubur.bia), December 06, 1999.

Susan B. really hit that ol' nail right on the head. Dead center.

Joe Sixpack comes home from the mill, and his kids are whining, "Daddy, we're hungry." There's no food in the trailer and the only grocery store within 15 miles (in our locale) has been cleaned out. The little town of about 350 persons has no shelters and no stores put aside. So what does ol' Joe do? He starts making the rounds, trying to bum food and other essentials from those who prepared.

Maybe he succeeds. So he goes back to the trailer park, grumbling about the whole damn mess, and feeds the kids. By now, Joe's trailer park buddies are asking him where he got the food. He tells them, and off they go to see what they can come up with. Some of them will be real needy, and others will just be your typical opportunists hoping to get something for nothing...at someone else's expense.

So what do you do when they knock on your door? I've had numerous conversations about this dilemma with well-meaning but naive folks hereabouts. The first task is to disabuse the erstwhile givers of the notion that these panhandlers will be grateful for the help and won't be coming back after they consume those beans. They won't be grateful, not by a long shot...given today's "You owe me" mindset, they'll simply think they are entitled to be fed by you, or by someone, doesn't matter who.

And when you finally run out of giveaways, you'll have a bunch of frustrated, desperate, ungrateful, resentful, and hostile people outside your door, trying to decide what to do next. "Gotta feed those kids, dammit!"

At that point, dear bleeding heart, you are in deep doo-doo.

Got a 12-gauge...?

-- Norm Harrold (nharrold@tymewyse.com), December 06, 1999.

Let me elaborate a bit on my previous remarks. Your dilemma on responding to requests for food is made considerably more difficult by the fact that there's just no way for you to determine just how long the problem will last, and how much you need to retain for your own family's well-being.

If you guess wrong, you put your own family and animals at unacceptable risk.

Yet, if the infrastructure problems are solved sooner than you expected and the food crisis is resolved quickly, you will have earned the permanent enmity of those who you earlier turned away...and even your own DWGI family members may resent your not having helped those others...after all, you now have food left over that you could have shared, no?

Can you still live in that community after the dust settles?

It's truly a dilemma. And I don't have any good answers...except that I will have to use my own best judgment and protect, first, those people and animals who depend on me for their safety and survival.

Boy, I wish this was over, already.

-- Norm Harrold (nharrold@tymewyse.com), December 06, 1999.

Norm, your answers were right on. The latter post, "can I live in the community after the dust settles?" Depends on what kind of community you live in and the circumstances surrounding your particular situation. I don't owe anything to anyone and everyone keeps to themselves here. Most are off to the golf course everyday, having babies and enjoying their own life and family. So in my situation, the community or "neighborhood" does not matter, it will be business as usual after the dust settles. That's life in the wide open country. However, if your buddies with your neighbors, socialize on occasion, look out for each other, etc., then maybe your feelings of obligation calls to you and that may be right for you. But knowing the human nature of people, jealousy sets in, then resentment that they find themselves in this predicament and it will cause problems after the dust settles (if it settles at all). How much do you want to prep for others and sacrifice your safety and supplies? It's funny how when one stray cat shows up, there's two or three behind it. There may be no wrong answer or right answer, it's what the circumstances are and how safe you feel with your decision. My decision is "NO" from the start.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), December 06, 1999.