Hey Preachers,

I received the following email from a gentlemen who has been attending our services for quite some time now. He and his wife have been a real blessing to our congregation; they are from a Lutheran background, and are now at the point where they are considering placing their membership in our congregation.

Please respond to this email as if you were me--I have already sent them my response, which I will post soon. But I will direct them to this forum to see how other preachers would have responded, and let them compare your responses to my own...

Thanks... here it is!

Duane,

The discussions after we leave Bible study seem to be more far reaching and basic than anything that comes up while we are there.

We are still wrestling with the specific beliefs of the Christian Church as manifest in the First Christian Church of Chiefland.

I am trying to get to a yes or no question so here goes.

Does the First Christian Church of Chiefland acknowledge that there are many Churches that teach and follow the Bible and consider them selves to be Christians ie; Episcopalian , Methodist , Lutherian, Congreational, Baptist, etc. But that Heaven is EXCLUSIVELY the right of only those who have been Baptized by immersion, and that those who are not Baptized by immersion , irrespective of all esle, will be barred from Heaven on this fact alone?

I think I have gotten to a yes or no.

Please help,

"John Doe"

-- Anonymous, December 03, 1999

Answers

Alright, Alright....I will bite......

If a person knows what the Bible teaches about baptism and refuses to accept that teaching......they ARE NOT going to heaven....i.e., they are going to hell.

When will we come to understand that a large number of people in the pew are weary of preaching that doesn't just come out and say the way it is.

This is not my declaration....Jesus said, "If you are not for me....you are against me."

Then pray tell....how can we be "for Jesus" if we reject the baptism that He commands?

-- Anonymous, December 06, 1999

Duane.....

Great question!!

If in fact a person is without knowledge of what the Bible teaches about baptism.....then they fall into that category where we make the claim...."that is between them and God"....because.....only God knows the extent (or the lack) of knowledge a person has.

Of course, they also become a prime candidate for teaching.

My pervious post was only in direct reference to those who know....but refuse to accept (otherwise known as "repentance").

Hope this clarifies.

-- Anonymous, December 06, 1999

Dear John,

Heaven is EXCLUSIVELY (as you put it) for those who have been obedient to the gospel.

I would presume by now that we have come to understand, that obedience to the gospel as clearly outlined in the N.T., includes and necessitates the act of immersion.

To not be immersed then, would be direct disobedience to the command of our Lord.

Rejection of the authority of Jesus on this matter carries no less penalty than for disobedience on any of the other things Jesus commanded including the need for faith or repentance.

The Christian Church has the obligation to preach and teach the gospel according to how it was "once" delivered in the N.T.

Therefore, I volley the question back to you....yes or no......should the Christian Church (or any other church), in disobedience to the clear teachings of Scripture and the clear commands of our Lord Jesus Christ, preach any less than the gospel "once, for all delivered?"

I believe from the way that you answer this question....you will be able to determine my "yes" or "no" answer.

Best Regards,

-- Anonymous, December 03, 1999

I'll give it a go:

Dear "John",

I think regardless of who is answering, the answer is no.

1) The New Testament scriptures show the early church teaching and practicing baptism by immersion. Scripture after scripture shows this as the practice of all who came to Christ. YET, it is only at best implied that those who weren't baptized face a negative judgement. So I teach that baptism is necessary for assurance of salvation, and would not advise anyone to teach otherwise nor risk their salvation by not being baptized. If you would like to study this point more John, let's discuss it over breakfast some time.

2) You use the language "EXCLUSIVELY the right". John, heaven is not a right to those who are baptized. To call it a right because of something we did is to imply we earn salvation. God gives us salvation. The only right we have comes to us when we believe, as John 1:12 says "Yet to all who receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God". I get the right to become a child of God if I believe in Jesus. I claim that right when I repent, that is, give up my current selfish life and turn it over to Christ, fully submitting my will to Him, and join Him in death and resurrection by being immersed in water and coming out again.

John, I hope that helps.

Mark

How's that Duane?

-- Anonymous, December 03, 1999

To be submersed or not is a matter of whether you wish to follow Christ's example. He asks that we do. To go to heaven one must first accept the Lord Jesus as Savior. But the act of water baptism is an outward expression of our decision and our dedication to Him. It is symbolic of: (1) the death of our Lord, as in our submersion; (2) the burial of the Lord, as in the being underwater; and (3) the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, as in our coming up out of the water cleansed and pure in Him. The question is not so much "If I don't get water baptised, will I go to heaven?" The question is: "Do I love my Savior enough to follow His lead as He had asked us to." It is a humbling of oneself to say the least; but if you're not humble enough to do this one small thing He asks of us, how can He use us in the big things? He that is not faithful in the lesser things, will not be faithful in the greater matters. The answer is already within you.

-- Anonymous, December 03, 1999

Dear John

It matters not what the Christian Church at Chiefland or any other group teaches about immersion. I am not saying that to be mean or sarcastic, but it is the bottom line. It matters only what the Bible teaches.

John you must come to the biblical conclusion of what God's plan to save man from their sins is. You must come to the biblical conclusion of where do sinners meet the precious blood of the lamb for salvation by grace, through faith. If we have the earnest desire to make Jesus Lord of all of our life, then it should not make a difference if He commands us to stand on our head and whistle dixie while eating watermelon. If that is what the Lord wants, than if I want Him as Lord, I will do it no matter what all of my loved ones have done in the past, or what anyone else says. Jesus said "if anyone wishes to come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow me." "For whoever wishes to save his life shall lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it. (Luke 9:23-24) There is the choice that we all must make and keep making it all through our lives.

It is a matter of who you want to be the Lord of your life John. Jesus or some other person or tradition. Is the Bible the word of God? If it is, then the followers of Jesus must follow the bible or they are not His followers. Yes, immersion is necessary for salvation because the bible includes it in the plan of salvation, along with Hearing, Believing, Confession and Repenting. Let us not forget living faithfully until our physical death or the Lord's final coming. Read Romans chapters 5-6 and maybe that will help.

God bless as you strive to please Him, not man.

-- Anonymous, December 03, 1999

What if they don't know what the Bible teaches about baptism?

-- Anonymous, December 06, 1999

Duane,

The discussions after we leave Bible study seem to be more far reaching and basic than anything that comes up while we are there.

We are still wrestling with the specific beliefs of the Christian Church as manifest in the First Christian Church of Chiefland.

I am trying to get to a yes or no question so here goes.

Does the First Christian Church of Chiefland acknowledge that there are many Churches that teach and follow the Bible and consider them selves to be Christians ie; Episcopalian , Methodist , Lutherian, Congreational, Baptist, etc. But that Heaven is EXCLUSIVELY the right of only those who have been Baptized by immersion, and that those who are not Baptized by immersion , irrespective of all esle, will be barred from Heaven on this fact alone?

I think I have gotten to a yes or no.

Please help,

"John Doe"

Dear John:

The above is a letter addressed to Brother Duane which he has asked us to help answer for your benefit. I am sure that you ask these questions because you love our Lord Jesus Christ and are sincerely seeking the truth that you may obtain the salvation that comes from our Lord alone. I am not a preacher in the sense of clergy and laity is understood in our modern day but I am a preacher because the Lord commanded us all to preach the gospel ( Matthew 28:19,20). I completely reject the false idea of seperating the so called clergy from the similarly humanly denominated laity. I am a Christian and as such I serve at the pleasure of the Lord in obedience to His commands to preach the gospel to all nations. For he has determined through the foolishness of preaching ( 1 Cor. 1:18) to save them that believe. Therefore it is with love in my heart for you, your family and our Lord Jesus Christ that I now make this attempt to help you. I send this to you with a fervent prayer that you will come to know the truth as it is in Christ concerning these matters.

Let me begin by saying that the beliefs of the First Christian Church at Chiefland are of little consequence in answering your question. For though they are clearly Christians who love the Lord and yearn to follow Him in all things and seek to lead others to do the same, none will be judged in the last day by anything that they believe whether right or wrong. We must wrestle with the teachings of Christ as manifested in His Holy word rather than the beliefs of the Christian Church as manifested in the First Christian Church of Chiefland. We will all be judged by Christ, our Lord, and his words. (Acts 17:30, John 6:63, John 12:48). And the degree to which the beliefs of the First Christian Church of Chiefland harmonizes with the doctrine of Christ will determine nothing more that how they will stand before the judge at the last day. Who will not consult their beliefs any more than He will consult any of the other creeds of men. When our Lord judges you he will not refer to the beliefs of the First Christian Church of Chiefland but rather to the doctrine of Christ manifested in His word. He also will not refer to the apostles creed The Westminster confession of faith, or any other human creeds. He will judge us out of His word that was delivered by the Holy Spirit through the apostles of Christ. (John 12:48).

Nor will the various denominations that consider they to be Christians have any bearing on the eternal salvation that comes only through Christ. It is not those who consider themselves to be Christians who will be saved but rather those whom God has accepted as Christians that will find the hope of the resurrection unto life eternal. The answer to your question must not be found in the doctrines and commandments of men but rather in the Word of God received from Christ, through the Holy Spirit, and delivered to us by his chosen apostles. (John 16:13; John 14:26; Jude 3).

Also I must explain that salvation in Christ is the gift of God (Romans 6:23) and therefore has never been nor will it ever be an exclusive right to anyone who has faith in Christ.

Having said all of the above, I will site several passages from Gods eternal word followed by yes or no questions which I am convinced will help you to obtain the answers to your question form our Lord Jesus Christ himself. For He sent the Holy Spirit to the apostles to deliver the Faith to us so that our hope of eternal Life may reside in Him alone. For Christ is essential to our salvation and there is salvation in no other. (Acts4: 12). This procedure will help you for the word of God is quick and powerful piercing even the dividing asunder of soul and spirit and the joints and the marrow and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Heb. 4:12). 1. Jesus said,  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: He that believeth not shall be condemned (Mark 16:16). Did Jesus promise salvation only to those who believe and are baptized? Yes or no?

2. Jesus told Nicodemus,  except a man be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:3-5).

Can one inter the kingdom of God without being born of WATER AND THE SPIRIT? Yes or no?

3. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, (Ephesians 5:25,26).

Is the Church cleansed by the washing of water by the word? Yes or no?

4. For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Did Christ save us by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit? Yes or No?

5. Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. (Hebrews 10:22).

Can we now approach God with a true heart and full assurance of faith because not only has our hearts been sprinkled from an evil conscience but also our bodies have been washed with pure water? Yes or no?

6. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen. Matthew 28:19,20

Is baptism a command of our Lord? Yes or No?

6. Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Hebrews 5:8,9. , If you love me keep my commandments. (Luke 6:46), Why call ye me Lord, Lord and do not the things which I say. And again, not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven but he that doeth the will of my father who is in heaven (Matt 7:21). If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love. (John 15:10).  Ye are my friends if ye do the things which I command you. (John 15:14).

Is Christ the author of eternal salvation to anyone who does not obey him? Yes or no?

7. And we are his witnesses of these things; and [so is] also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Acts 5:32.

Is the Holy Spirit given to those who do not obey Christ? Yes or no?

8. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.  Romans 8:9.

If one does not have the Spirit of Christ does he belong to Christ? Yes or no?

9. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38.

If we repent and are baptized will we receive the Holy Spirit? Yes or NO?

10. And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Is baptism in the name of Christ necessary to receiving the Holy Spirit? Yes or no?

11. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38.

Must one repent and be baptized in order to receive the remission of sin? Yes or no?

12. And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Acts 22:16.

Does baptism have any connection to having our sins washed away? Yes or no?

13. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Romans 1:16.

Is the gospel the power of God to save us? Yes or no?

14. :  Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand, by which also ye are SAVED, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye BELIEVED IN VAIN. For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried; and that he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures.

Does the Gospel save us? Yes or No?

Can one believe in vain? Yes or no?

Is the gospel the fact that Christ died, was buried and raised? Yes or no?

15. And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Thess. 1:8,9.

Will Christ take vengeance on those who do not OBEY THE GOSPEL? Yes or no?

Will those who do not obey the gospel be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of God and the glory of His power? Yes or no?

Is the gospel the facts concerning the death burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Cor. 15:1-4)? Yes or no?

Is it possible to obey the death burial and resurrection of Christ? Yes or no?

16. Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Romans 6:3-6.

When we are baptized do we obey the likeness of the death burial and resurrection of Christ? Yes or no?

If the gospel is the fact that Christ died for our sins was buried, and raised the third day according to the scriptures and we die to our sins and are buried by baptism into his death and are raised to walk a new life. Then are we, in this process, being obedient to the gospel, which is the fact that Christ died, was buried and raised again? Yes or no?

Is their any other way for us to obey the death burial and resurrection of Christ? Yes or no?

If baptism is the only way to obey the gospel and Christ will destroy those who do not obey the gospel can we be saved without being baptized? Yes or no?

17. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.  Gal. 3:26,27.

Are we Children of God by faith in Christ Jesus because as many of us as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ? Yes or no?

Is their any other way to get into Christ? Yes or no?

Is their any other way to put on Christ? Yes or no?

If Salvation is in Christ (Acts 4:12) and we are baptized into Christ is their any salvation for those who have not been baptized into Him?

Are there any IN CHRIST who have not been baptized into Him?

18. Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:20,21.

Was any souls saved by water in the days of Noah? Yes or no?

Does baptism also now save us? Yes or no?

Is baptism merely the putting away of dirt from the body? Yes or no?

Is baptism the answer of a good conscience? Yes or no?

Is baptism connected with the resurrection of Christ in answering a good conscience? Yes or no?

19. I recommend the reading of all of the examples of conversion again with your question in mind. Acts 2:1-47; Acts 8:9-40; Acts 9:17- 18; 22:16;Acts 10:34-46; Acts 16:32;Acts 16:13.

Upon reading the examples of Conversion did you find anyone, after the death of Christ on the Cross, that was saved without being baptized? Yes or no?

When Phillip preached Jesus did he preach about baptism? Yes or no?

Was baptism very important to the apostles? Yes or no?

Was anyone offered salvation on any terms that did not include being baptized? Yes or no.

It seems to me that if you will read these verses and honestly answer the questions about them you will find that when you submit to our Lord in Baptism that He will add you to His Church. (Acts 2:47). And you will then be able to end your search for a church to belong to. Because you will then belong to the Lord who automatically places you into the Church which is His body. Col. 1:18, 24; Eph1: 22,23; Eph. 4:4. Then wherever you find others who have also obeyed the Lord by faith and have been baptized into Christ you will be among others who are also members of the Church of Christ. You will have no reason to belong to anyone but Christ our Lord and His body wherein salvation is found. You cannot join this Church. All who are obedient to the Gospel are members of it just like a Child who is born into an earthly family is automatically a member of that family upon his birth. The Lord will not add you to any denomination or sect. He will add you to His body, the Church. If it were important for you to belong to some denomination he would add you to one. If he has not determine to add you to a denomination then why would you seek to join one? Obey the Gospel of Christ my dear friend and Let Him save you from your sins and let him add you to his one body the Church. Be content with that operation of God and seek no sect or schism in that body. Love Him, serve Him, and worship with others who have been obedient to the same gospel and have the LIKE PRECIOUS FAITH that is found in the word of God. Continue steadfastly in the apostles doctrine and fellowship and the breaking of bread and prayers. Acts 2:42. Be faithful unto death and you will receive the crown of life, which the Lord the righteous judge will give unto you in that day.

I pray fervently for your faithful submission to our Lord in all that he has command you that you may obtain the hope of the resurrection without which we would be of all men most miserable.

Your Friend in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, December 06, 1999

I have read all of the answers submitted but this is an issue I have had to deal with frequently....

The only person the bible considers a christian or going to heaevn is a repentant immersed believer.

The bible never addresses the idea of an unimmersed believer - so we are in an area where the bible is silent...

I would love to see everyone in heaven BUT the only ones who can have any assurance whatsoever are those who have obeyed the Gospel... Those who have not are in a very uncertain position...

As you reach out and covert people from various backgrounds (I was raised Luthern and had many people I love die before we were exposed to the truth) you will deal with this issue more & more... What i tell them is that those who are not immersed are in God's hands and he will do what is right and fair... as he always does... By doing so I neither place them in heaven or in hell...That is up to God... BUT I then encourage them to embrace that assurance for themselves thru simple obedience...

NOW SUPPOSE I say - they are most certainly in hell... and this position causes them to put off their own obedience... becasue accepting it means their loved ones are lost. Granted it is hard to accept even when it means are loved ones eternal destiny is unsure...

There is obviously a delegate balance to maintian here....lest someone feel comfortable with not obeying the Gospel... For we must preach the plan of salvation as it is in the bible....

-- Anonymous, December 21, 1999

Correction to my answer above, I have NOT read all of the above answers...

keep looking UP

Steve

-- Anonymous, December 23, 1999