We have pygmy goats and one fainter. We got a scroungy, half-wild, old Nubian doe with high hopes for milk next spring. Unfortunately our pygmy buck wasn't tall enough to do his duty. Our friends brought us a gorgeous Nubian buck and another Nubian doe last night. We were very pleased, particularly because the pair was so gentle.

This morning I went into the pen to help a little goat who was stuck in some wire. The others were eating at the feed trough. Out of the corner of my eye I saw the big buck rise up taller than I am. I had a split second to see that he was bringing his skull down hard in the direction of my skull, and I turned my back and ducked. The blow came down between my shoulder blades. I staggered. He came back up underneath my precious fanny and lifted me off the ground entirely on the points of his horns. The ripping noise was merely the tearing of my jeans and not of my flesh, though I wasn't sure of that until later. He hit me several times with his hooves while I fumbled for the gate and tried to keep him from gouging my eyes out.

My husband won't let me make a goat-skin ammo bag from the most useful part of that goat's anatomy. He's willing to let me try out my new stun gun but suggested I carry a baseball bat for backup. He promised that if y2k is a nice little fizzle he'll turn me loose on that goat.

My fanny may never be the same.

-- helen (sstaten@fullnet.net), December 02, 1999

Answers

Screw the ball bat....carry a .357, no damn goat is worth your well being.

My father in law barely escaped with his life when one of our kids goats (the buck) decided to play the same game with him....he had a hammer and hit said goat repeatedly in the head but it barely fazed him. Ozzie got away but no way would I allow that critter to survive with my kids being frequent visitors. When I Oz told me what happened I handed Oz my .45 and told him he was welcome to remove the hazard as he saw fit. He did. Damn goats.

-- Don Kulha (dkulha@vom.com), December 02, 1999.

(pssstt...Helen...be sure to leave this part out of your travel brochure...) Glad to hear most of your parts survived the attack. Did the little goat stuck in the wire sort itself out?

-- Brooks (brooksbie@hotmail.com), December 02, 1999.

Shoot the damned goat. Now. Your tender parts are consideraby more valuable than any goat. Your husband has strange priorities.

-- Vlad (Strelok60@yahoo.com), December 02, 1999.

I'm glad that you're O.K. We've had goats for almost ten years, and I've never (thankfully) had to go through that. It is possible to have friendly bucks, but remember the following:

1. Never allow a goat's horns to grow. As soon as they start growing at about 3-6 days, have them burned off.

2. Work and play with your goats, starting from when they are young, and they will be as friendly as pet dogs.

-- Ann M. (Hismckids@aol.com), December 02, 1999.

The little goat got out of the wire by himself.

My husband wants milk for our children next year, so that's his highest priority.

We went back out there with a stunner. First I humiliated myself by screaming and running when the goat looked at me. Then I stunned him. Nothing happened. I stunned him again. He got sexually excited and started wanting to get even closer to me. I backed out of the pen and stunned him right between the eyes over the fence. He became wildly turned on and began sexually attacking male and female goats alike.

Stunners on buck goats don't appear to be helpful in self defense.

-- helen (sstaten@fullnet.net), December 02, 1999.

Helen -- Glad to hear you are safe and relatively unhurt. This is a very important thread. Too often, we talk about livestock in terms of how "cute" they are. Yeah, sorta.

Old-time farmers sometimes lost their children to pigs or goats.

Farm animals are "relatively" tame, that is, compared to coyotes and mountain lions. The biggest, though not the only, problems, as your post points out so cogently, is with males and breeding.

The message is to have a means of defense with you at all times that really, really works. Stunning is better than killing but killing is better than risking your own serious injury or death.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), December 02, 1999.

I agree with the rest..... shoot the damn goat! If he will attack you, the brute will not hesitate to attack your children... Milk is important, yes, but so is your health and your childrens... Let hubby go into that goat pen and deal with old Billy for awhile.

I had a bull like that... tried to run down everyone he came up against... a steal pipe between the eyes once or twice straightened him out where I was concerned.. but he still chased my husband and kids all over the pasture!

-- twila (twilap@hotmail.com), December 02, 1999.

When I was a kid just into college I had a neighbor, a famous blues singer/guitarist,who always had a bunch of pigs and a milch goat or two. He came from Miss. or Alabama or somewhere and even though he was gone a lot doing concerts, his animals always showed lots of respect. He always had a "suger stick" as he called it, either a tree branch or a 2x2 about 3 feet long with #8 penny nails driven through the last 5 or 6 inches pokeing through in every direction. He would pull up to his yard gate and when the pigs saw him,..by the time he had the gate open, the pigs would have forced their way back through the holes in their pens and would be hiding in their sheds. (While he was gone, the pigs would break out and tear up the whole place, but ugly as it was, they sure respected him when he was around.) Same thing for the goats when they got out of line. they all got a second or third chance, but a beating with the sugar stick surely imprinted some manners. Drastic methods, and I don't embrace 'em, but it's a sure thing your stock will respect your rules. I did see, one time, his solution to a puppy who wouldn't quit attacking chickens. After 2 severe beatings and accompanying scoldings and the dog once again attacked a chicken, he picked up a cinder block and bashed the dog's head in. That was a real shock for me, a kid mostly raised in the city, but in hindsight, that was a man who cared for his live-stock, offered that stupid dog several chances to shape up, and when he wouldn't, he was humanely destroyed in one swift second. Was I you, I would go out and set that "cabron" up, and when he assaults you, in return, turn around and attack him ferociously, and beat him so severely that he he knows he's contemplating his own death at your mercy. Then you go drink a cup of coffee and come back out 20 minutes later and just walk up and kick him as hard as you can. (All the time you have been beating on him you should have been shouting at the top of your lungs, too.)

After this you should have a fairly decent billy, if it happens again, beat him again. It won't happen a third time, and you still have a live, valuable billygoat.

-- Roger (pecosrog@earthlink.net), December 03, 1999.

What many of you are missing is that a male animal whether it is a bull, ram, stallion or buck that is in with his females will almost always be territorial. We have a bull, stallion, ram and a buck, and they all behave that way. When they are away from the females, they are very gentle and easy to handle. Once they settle into being with their females, they also calm down.

I would suggest moving the buck and the females that need bred to a smaller pen so that only when you need to deal with those particular animals do you need to worry about the buck. Also have the vet come out (or take it to the vet) and have the horns removed (cost us $25 to have it done to a female we had)- that will slow him down some as well since the horns protect his head from the full blow of head butting.

-- just me (none@nowhere.com), December 03, 1999.

I know better than to enter a pen with a bull, a stallion, a hog, or a buck deer. I feel so stupid for not realizing a big buck goat can kill too. I went back out there this morning, and the monster tried to come through the fence to get to me. This is getting ridiculous. We've put down stock-killing dogs with a bullet. I've never beaten an animal (the kids are pretty safe from me too), but we have to do something about this goat. He goes after my husband only when he's not looking. All my husband has to do is look at him, and he backs off. With me he's a dominant. I don't know if he's treating me like a threat to his territory or an addition to his harem. The only reason we have these goats is because of y2k issues. I have materials for a sugar stick. And the fear to make a good swing if I have to...(shudder)

-- helen (sstaten@fullnet.net), December 03, 1999.

Understandable, Helen, and we wouldn't think about bucks if we didn't have friends who have a goat farm (and never a bad incident, it's just a matter of knowing how).

Your buck might be better off as meat. Like any animal, when they get persistently uncontrollable, it is sometimes too late.

Otherwise, pitchforks aren't bad.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), December 03, 1999.

Understandable, Helen, and we wouldn't think about bucks if we didn't have friends who have a goat farm (and never a bad incident, it's just a matter of knowing how). This thread has reminded US of the need to take care ahead of time with all our animals.

Your buck might be better off as meat. Like any animal, when they get persistently uncontrollable, it is sometimes too late.

Otherwise, pitchforks aren't bad.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), December 03, 1999.

helen

you got the point in your last post - it's definitely dominance. in order to be able to work with him, you've got to teach him that pecking order puts him below you, not above you. just cause its a simple answer doesn't mean its an easy answer. some animals will fight to the death for the dominance position, others won't.

i've gone through this with dogs, and most animals are the same. if you can get him to accept your dominance, you won't have to kill him, but he might not ever get to that point.

good luck, and be careful out there.

-- Cowardly Lion (cl0001@hotmail.com), December 03, 1999.

Send him away, either the butcher or auction house, and find a goat with a gentler personality. We borrowed a buck from the neighbor, he's been with us for several weeks, and has never shown the slightest agression towards humans. We got a free ram earlier this year, after our older ram died. The new guy made my hubby limp a couple of times. They had at it on several occasions, before we got him to the auction house. We broke even on the price he fetched vs. the cost of getting him to the auction, but good riddance. Our older ram was picked for his calm personality, and any new rams we get will be picked for personality. We're not raising prize-winning registered anything on the farm and the safety factor, with two (human) kids, is the most important. It's just not worth it, in my opinion, to try to figure out just how much violence an animal needs to behave. Using a buck with that personality to make more goats is a mistake anyway. You don't want the traits this animal shows to be passed on to any more animals.

-- Bingo (ecsloma@pronetisp.net), December 03, 1999.

Helen, Helen, Helen, I leave you alone for how long, and look what happens! Sorry Dear, I have owed you an e-mail for sometime, and will remedy that today *if this server stays up long enough*

This buck, and others similar to him, IMNOHO, will never be gentle, tame or anything other than dangerous. His raising to fight you is not normal human/goat interaction. This is not a "territorial issue" this is a pecking order issue. He is challanging the humans for dominance. You are not another "doe", you are higher on the pecking order, although normal bucks can sense a woman menstrating, and some react, but that isn't the issue here.

NOTE: goat kids doing similar raising up in fight posture to butt humans, should be taught a stiff no, and pull down on their collars immediately. Goats are smart, they learn quickly.

First, and foremost...keep children and buck separated. He will be worse with them then you and hubby. Can he get out?

If this buck is absolutely necessary for breeding, do it a.s.a.p, then get rid of him, even if it means digging a large hole. And then who would you be able to sell him to with clear concious?

There is only one way to get a really hard bucks attention, in my personal experience, to come up under his belly and knock the wind out of him. This is cruel, to most, and possibly harm the buck. I have been there done that at the emergency room, ref: buck goats.

Hubby should only deal with this animal, and taking the wind out of him, with top of boot, is the only way to make him keep a distance. Careful not to use toe of boot...that would harm the mean old fellow too much, aside from hurting your toe. This will hold him at bay long enough to care for him if you need him for breeding.

He is only challenging hubby with eye contact, hubby need to surprise him. Do not hit him on the head, this just reinforces his natural method of fighting...butting. Wind knocking with foot is a purely human move.

As was suggested above, the stick is a symbol, but this fellow may be beyond that...use the wind knocking in conjuction with the stick...then the stick will reinforce the lesson on sight (and hopefully he a visual for when the back is turned).

No need to do it exceptionally hard, it will get his attention; and no need for hubby to wait till "something" happens to do so...you want the buck weary of hubby...teach him to keep a distance at all times, even then you can't trust him when you are around the females and grain.

Someone ruined this animal long before you got him, dear, but even a "friendly" buck is dangerous during breeding season or if you are between he and the feed, just by enthusiasm alone. My Toggenberg buck goes near 200 lbs.

I have two bucks. The dominant one is servicing the does, the other is a sweet heart, but that is to respect, not exploit. The dominant one is witnessing his first and last breeding season here (we acquired him when he was older too). He has hurt me several times, knocked me down, and not even ment too. Now he waits several feet back for me to pass through the gate, grain in hand. I didn't like doing it, but...

My general opinion of livestock, goats specifically: keep the stock in the field, treat them as such, respect and care. Buck goats should NEVER be made pets, they should be trained. They appreciate brushing and care, but they have to respect you, and appreciate the attention you give them. Keep kittens in the house to pet.

Any one want a kitten? :-)

-- Lilly (homesteader145@yahoo.com), December 03, 1999.

Thank you for all the advice. My husband agrees we can get rid of him as soon as we're sure the ladies are pregnant. We've learned that the former owner (single man) kept him on a chain within sight and smell of the doe, but he's never been allowed to breed. We turned him in with four does and three small bucks. We might as well have turned him out in heaven for all he knows. He likes it and he's protecting his new status -- at least, I hope that's the explanation. I don't like the idea of hurting him, but he's hurt me already and the kids will be in danger if he breaks out. Getting the nerve up to go in there with him to do the training is the hard part.

-- helen (sstaten@fullnet.net), December 03, 1999.

I have been working on my geneology and discovered so far that I have had one ancestor who was gored to death by a bull and one who "died in an incident with horses".

-- Amy Leone (leoneamy@aol.com), December 03, 1999.