Before reading this, understand that I need a good rant/Q&A with the forum, no direct offense is meant in any way specifically.

If offense is taken,...then forgive the flaming. I grow weary of cretinous morons who are waving the banner of the UN and how "the russian trained, genetically mutated, Rockefeller controlled UN military are coming to drink our whisky, rape our fields, pillage our women, and steal our guns." It gets old on such a continuous level. And FYI, just to prevent the real nutcakes from going after me....Do I think there is a shadow government? Yes. Do I think the globalization of the world is bad news? Yes. Do I think that there is a vast conspiricy to dominate the world? No. Do I think that any one group is capable of taking control of the world? No.

After spending many moons in the service, and having helped construct some of the supposed 'camps' that are photographed and posted all over the place, I find it facinating that people truly believe that there is going to be a 'Huge Overnight Takeover' where Bill Clinton will be crowned "Emperor Willie the First."

Get a grip folks. This country has enough problems on a daily basis just getting a letter to be delivered from NY to California within a respectable time. (Never mind shipping it overseas!) The very Idea they could possibly get so many people organized in such a way as to dominate or control the entire United States is beyond me. No foriegn presence would ever get a toehold in this country. Lets face it. This is the best armed country in the world per capita, and the boys in DC sure as hell know that even the military would not back a play to disarm the US.

How is it that so many have gotten to the point where they actually believe that a united world government could exist? We, here in the United States, can't even get along with each other all that well. How are we to relate to all of the worldwide xenophobia that currently exists? The Russians still believe we are determined to destroy them, and because of their paranoid tendancies, are re-arming just like the 'bad old days' We need to take a break here gang. The UN is not going to break down your door on January 1st, and demand your gun and food. Ain't gonna happen. Y'all who really believe this stuff need to take a deep breath, continue to prep, and relax. If you see a National Guardsman out and about on New Years, wish him and his a Happy New Year. Don't shoot him. He's just doing his job. Same goes for the police and firemen. The reality is, having been in S.F., Infantry, Armor, and a whole lotta crappy places around the world, we Joes talk and discuss this shit too. We all, as almost a rule, pretty much have agreed that if push came to shove, "the officers appointed over me (us)" are disposable if they are telling us to do something that we know is inherently wrong. The funniest thing about the Army these days is, that with all of Clinton's Political Correctness and Sensitivity for Others Training they pushed on us, made us realize that we, 80% that I know, would not obey an illegal order. Especially if it came from the current President. Our oath of service is to the People of the United States and its Constitution. People speak of us (the military) here on this forum as if we were reborn goose stepping Nazis. Maybe so in the higher ranks, like at the pentagon...but not the average Joe. Support the troops, and they, in turn will support you. You can't have a war with out the grunts to wage it.

-- Billy Boy (Rakkasan101st@aol.com), December 02, 1999

Answers

Uh, Billy-Boy, what do you think the reason for the vaccines is? they KNOW that the grunts like you( god bless you!) would not support them, so they are murdering you to get rid of the problem, ie: gulf war syndrome, or farther in the past, agent orange, or forcing troops to watch live nuke tests. you, as well as the american people are expendable and always have been. we are all pawns, to be moved around the board and taken out at whim... The first step to true freedom is to understand that! The next step is to...?

-- Crono (Crono@timesend.com), December 02, 1999.

Good Post Billy!

-- C. Hill (pinionsmachine@hotmail.com), December 02, 1999.

Huzzah to that! Now please delete this OT thread. ;)

-- Colin MacDonald (roborogerborg@yahoo.com), December 02, 1999.

Crono...he was talking about supporting and respecting the grunts...you are WAY out in left field.

-- C. Hill (pinionsmachine@hotmail.com), December 02, 1999.

Billy -- superb post and, if people are reading, you admit "shadow governments" and wrong-doing in HIGH places, WTO wrongness, etc.

If Y2K > 7, .gov and .mil will have enough trouble trying to keep its OWN centralized control game over its own "employees" together. I have taken at face value Mme K's exhortation that the states/localities will largely be on their own -- watch out, New York City dwellers ... !

I have also said on this forum on numerous occasions that I believe the feds will have strong need to maintain internal U.S. morale so it remains possible to "enlist us" to continue projecting U.S. power overseas against the BIG-TIME adversaries. This will also be a full- time task in a Y2K-chaotic scene.

Local "martial law". Possibly. Over-reaction by feds with respect to guns? Probably, alas. Efforts by some in the "shadow government" and "high places" to exploit all this to their own ends? Definitely.

But that doesn't add up, as Billy says, to a CAPABILITY, let alone a DESIRE, to assert de facto "military" control over the United States.

On the devil's advocate side, I will say this, however: it doesn't take lots and lots of actual military presence to cow a civilian population IF that population WANTS to be cowed. A few big-time, intense incidents could do the trick. HOWEVER (and this is crucial), the Waco debacle probably means that there are way too many "ordinary" Americans who won't stand for that type of thing post- Y2K to make "political display" incidents a safe bet for the nasty side of TPTB.

As for chemtrails, whatever they are, they aren't genocide. That's lunacy. Or, if so, it is genocide by stupid, crazy, unintended consequences accident ("uh, gee, err, this seems like a cool, experimental vaccine, yup, yupper, let's try it out on the citizens to protect them!"). Dilbert rules .gov too, you know. We're rural enough that we haven't seen any of them and, if we do, we're going into full hazmat alert hide-out mode.

Thanks, Billy, for an important "station identification."

Now, let the debate begin, eh?

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), December 02, 1999.

Thanks Billy. BD...well said as usual.

I don't fear the military and I totally support the view that the regular people within the ranks would/could rebel against questionable orders. But think about the ramifications of this. That's insurrection. We would see a splintering of our own military into factions. Is this a good thing?

Also, consider that we may see a serious, uh, disagreement and riff develop between our elected leaders and the military. Where will that lead? How far are we from Pakistan, really?

I agree that this is not a time when any NWO will be established. It's going to be difficult to keep order let alone create a one world government.

I see most people staying quiet in their homes, hunkered down. A wide use of the military isn't necessary unless foreign invaders or military action is taken. And, even then, if the DoD is suffering problems with readiness then things may be tough. If this kind of action were to take place I see the country moving together to repel any enemy rather than fighting eachother in the streets.

I am more concerned about government in-fighting, power struggles and maybe even a wild-card coup than whether or not a GI is going to come to my door and ask me for a couple of cans of soup. Contigency plans are a good thing.

Mike

=====================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), December 02, 1999.

Talk of UFOs, the "End Times" and (perhaps) the Illumanati may be rather extreme, but:

• The creators and leadership of the UN *is* mostly communist.
• There *is* now a World Court.
• There *is* now a WTO, which arguably is the UN's "Commerce Department".
• The UN *did* recently claim that national borders would not deter its "Human Rights" efforts.
• Nations *do* usually seek UN approval before engaging in military action (but not always).
• NATO (mostly under UN control) *is* now an offensive alliance, as well as defensive.

With the above in place, between the risks of a) global debt collapse, b) nuclear/chemical/biological war and c) Y2K, I'm personally concerned about the emerging "World Government". Granted, having a bunch of nation-states at war all of the time is a "Bad Thing". Global Government, though, seems to be a "Bad Deal" for the "West".

-- Anonymous999 (Anonymous999@Anonymous999.xxx), December 02, 1999.

Would a President sell nuclear weapons secrets to Communistic China? Nah..

Would a President attack Arab/Moslem countries to generate news media interest away from his scandals? Nah...not in the Democratic party.

Would a President lie under oath? Would his party lie to Congress over 1500 times, and would over 500 witness refuse to testify about his scandals? Nah...not if they were loyal Democrats.....but loyal to who?

Would a President lie about foreign policy issues? Would a President lie about the future intentions of the country that bought his place in the White House? Nah.....

Would a democratic Justice Department - also supposedly made of loyal Americans - cover up a Democratic President's scandals? Nah....

Would the national media coverup a Democratic President's scandals? Nah....

-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Marietta, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), December 02, 1999.

Billy-Boy,

My deepest respects to you and your fellow servicemen.

In deference (www.mikenew.com), I will not post again except in case of necessity.

Most claim the right to disagree. Did you know that you have the right also TO AGREE?

Many thanks and highest regards, Maid Upname

-- maid upname (noid@ihope.com), December 02, 1999.

Micheal,

There is merit in what you say Re:insurrection. The fractionalization of the Military would almost be gar-ron-teed in the event of a civil war/disturbance of great enough magnitude. The majority of the .mils in the service today are wholly dependant on more and more technologically sophisticated weapons to do the job. There are even 'safeguards' built into the equipment. The M1A2 MBT, the latest and greatest tank we have has an interesting feature built into it's command GPS satellite system. This little device, (from what I've heard) is standard in almost all of the new .mil toys out there. It's a remote "kill switch" that is activated remotely by the GPS tracking satellites. It essentially 'cooks' the electronics of the tank so it becomes (essentially) a 76 ton paperweight. The plane in the airforce, and the helicopters, even the new artillery pieces have something similar inside of them. All, ostensibly, to prevent 'theft' or enemy misuse. Now I realize that this seems to 'throw a bone' to the conspiricy theorists out there, but it also says something about the level of trust the .gov has for the .mil and the troops. Why? Because, history has shown that no coup or junta can be accomplished successfully without the support of

A) the people

and

B) The Military with the heavy weapons.

Thankfully, even if the bastards did manage to "pull the plug", we Joe, crafty devils we be, have already come up with workarounds to keep the tanks running and the choppers flying. Ain't no coup or takeover happening on our watch...

-- Billy Boy (Rakkasan101st@Aol.com), December 02, 1999.

Concur on shadow gov't. Concur on serious problems in globalization of trade. Concur on impossibility of "world government" in the overt sense, i.e., national governments made subsidiary to some central body. BUT---

IMO there are serious concerns about global anvironmental degradation resulting from (a) limited carrying capacity and (b) mega-corporate indifference to long-term consequences.

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), December 02, 1999.

Maid,

Drive on, go ahead and keep posting as much as you Like! I love to have such a worth opponent in the respect that if you show me some real-deal intel, I'll try to disprove it, but if I can't Hey I'll admit it Loudly and help trumpet it to the light!!! Bring out the roaches. Show them they will not be allowed to hide!!! Hell I'm the one advocating the use of Stinger missles to bring down a contrail plane! Drop one in the laps of the media and say "NOW! Disprove THIS you jackals!!!" So go ahead...keep searching...I know I am. I'm here from 7 in the morning to almost 7 at night, almost daily, either posting lurking or more importantly RESEARCHING.

-- Billy Boy (Rakkasan101st@Aol.com), December 02, 1999.

ROCK ON

RATIONALITY AT LAST!!

Old DJ

-- Old DJ (Hits_keep_ on_ comin@re.us), December 02, 1999.

On the whole, I tend to believe that more things are explained by the existance of powerful communities of interest than by active conspiracies. A conspiracy requires a relatively small number of participants. But it takes no stretch to understand how all millionaires and billionaires are tied together by a common desire for power.

The military is a good example of how the centers of power are managed for the benfit of those with the most leverage. The USA needs a military. The big question is what kind of military? Who benefits most from keeping a military whose mission is to be able to fight and win a two-front global war, Joe Blow who lives in a suburb of Kansas City? Or Joe Bucks who owns 100,000 shares each of IBM, Boeing, and Exxon? Who is getting the most bang for their taxes? Which one has been getting the most leverage out of our military power?

All that is required to see that there is no conspiracy among the wealthy and powerful is to watch when two or more powerful interests clash, as they did over nationalized health care in Clinton's first term. There is an old Chinese saying, "When elephants fight, the grass suffers." But elephants usually hang together.

I have my own theory about the conspiracy theorists and the black helicopter crowd. I think that these people are observant and perceptive. They see how the world works better in many ways than the swaddled and coddled bourgiousie, and they are very aware of how the cards are dealt. But they have a heartfelt need to take a set of nebulous facts and to project them into strongly objective and even mythological terms.

They require stories with clear heroes and villians and the clash of arms before they become "real" stories. In fact, they often tell you that they know the "true facts" or the "real story". It is just too hard for them to accept that the world is sh*tting on them out of impersonal actions, predicated entirely on amoral self-interest. As it has ever been. This would require them to understand the degree to which their own sh*t smells exactly like that of the people whose sh*t is falling on their heads from above. And to notice where their own sh*t is falling beneath them. Mostly on poor people from other countries.

Rant over.

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), December 02, 1999.

Billy, I could not agree more!!!!! You are right on. There's plenty to fear, but this isn't it. (Got to admit, I thought you were one of THEM, I stand corrected.) Rave on.

-- Mara (MaraWayne@aol.com), December 02, 1999.

Billy Boy,

Thanks for having the courage to voice your opinions here. Your words have been a profound comfort.

-- Hokie (nn@nn.com), December 02, 1999.

Oh, and I think that remote disable option is FUBAR. Tell me it ain't cake for the enemy to hack a satellite compared to him prying the equipment outta you guys hands! Little kids can hack DOD sites. sheez!

-- Hokie (nn@nn.com), December 02, 1999.

You seem to be learning fast, Billy Boy, but is is too bad you don"t have the video of General Shelton, head of Joint Chiefs of Staff, shouting to the military at Ft. Polk about "The beginning of a New World Order." I can mail you the video. My e-mail is real.Or you can order it from the Militia of Montana.

-- Betty Alice (Barn266@aol.com), December 02, 1999.

Good rant, Billy Boy. You're right, lotta lips flappin, and not much critical thinking going on about this scenario. Early this year though, we had a dynamite thread on this topic:

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000S8Y

Check it out. You're gonna love it.

Godspeed,

-- Pinkrock (aphotonboy@aol.com), December 03, 1999.

Here's another classic: "A Few Facts And Opinions About Martial Law"

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000NKQ

The sequel. Just as good as the original. Starring Hardliner, E. coli and Runway Cat. Don't miss this one.

Godspeed, Airborne.

-- Pinkrock (aphotonboy@aol.com), December 03, 1999.

Pinkrock -- the content is disturbing but those threads bring back memories. Was it only months ago? Wow. Must-reads for forumites.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), December 03, 1999.

Billy and all, I strongly recommend BOTH Threads, but don't do it between breakfast and work or on lunch hour. You will want to sit down with a notebook and pen, and a couple beers because they are LONG and have some VERY HARD THINKING in them.

chuck, whose contributions tended to be more comic ignorant relief against the heavy-weights

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), December 03, 1999.

Billy boy I don't doubt your sincerity, however there is incontrovertible evidence suggesting that the military is recruiting some pretty questionable folks these days. Try satanists and gang members. This does not speak highly of the folks in power, and it is the men training these creeps that are doing all the complaining, men probably like you, who are fed up and leaving, effectively weakening the integrity of our military as the grip on the power gets handed over to people who do not have allegiance to the constitutuion and the american people, who do not have integrity, morals and culpability.

I only hope that when the sh*t hits the fan there are more of youz guyz then there are of thoze guyz.

This information can be researched on the website of Captain Joyce Riley, RN at www.gulfwarvets.com

An easier way to research is to listen to her multiple interviews on the Jeff Rense show and the Art Bell show.

-- OR (orwelliator@biosys.net), December 03, 1999.