"May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me".

Jesus in prayer John 17:23

I remember a lesson God taught me about 1985 on this. I had invited a Jewish friend, Pete, to the annual Klein's BBQ for the college group. That night, Kathy and Edwina were just all buddy-buddy. It was obvious they liked each other as friends, and their laughter and (agape) love was obvious that night. Later, at Pete's apartment, I asked Pete what he thought about the evening. He spoke of the friendship he saw, despite the obvious differences. I knew that Kathy and Edwina were a big part of it, for you see, Kathy was white and rich, in college at Daddy's expense, and had everything handed to her on a silver platter, but somehow wasn't spoiled, while Edwina was black and poor, and often taking semesters off from school in order to earn money to return the next semester, and when she was in school, she had a part time job. Their clothing showed the difference, with Kathy's Gucci bag and Edwina's beaten old dimestore purse, Kathy's designer jeans etc. I explained to Pete that Kathy and Edwina can be friends because they share a common saviour, and Pete became the first person I ever had an evangelistic bible study with.

The church we all went to was the first racially integrated church I was ever at, and things were great. I remember the wedding of Wayne and Carmilla, where they asked Bill Wharton, a lay preacher at the time, to do the ceremony. What a site to see Bill, a white man, presiding over the otherwise all black wedding (as in the wedding party, not us witnesses).

Oh, yea, the question to go with that background. Last night, I was looking at James 2:1-12, about no favortism. I was thinking about how we can make congregations more open to people of all economic levels and, by extension of the principle in James 2, racial backgrounds, and I thought on how the resulting "unified diversity" can make a bold statement to the world about Christ. Churches, especially small and rural churches (my experience, yours may be different), tend toward being integrated both racially and economically. It's like the message we send the world is, "we love those most like us, not everyone". How can we combat this?

-- Anonymous, December 01, 1999

Answers

Are we afraid of the question, or do we think it is a non-issue?

Yesterday I visited a church in suburban Washington, D.C., while visiting my in-laws. One non-white in the crowd, out of a couple hundred. While I expected a predominantly white crowd, I do believe that the non-white population of the Virginia suburbs is greater than 0.5%.

-- Anonymous, December 13, 1999

Mark, I dont think its a non-issue, but its one approached with some trepidation. The immediate, knee-jerk reaction is, Of course were not prejudiced. Wed love for EVerybody to come. But then we find it difficult to understand why more dont. If we offer the love of God and the servant attitude of Jesus, then we would think that anyone who loves Christ will want to join us. But they dont.

Well, actually, some do. I dont know what the racial or economic makeup of Crosspoint(e?) is. At Cary, we certainly arent bursting at the seams with non-anglo-saxons. But there are a few. We have 71 family units (meaning different last names, whether a single man or woman, a couple with no children in the area, or a family of 6) listed in our church phone directory. Two of the family units are African American. There are four other African American family units that attend regularly. (We have all the African Zs covered - - Zambia, Zaire and Zimbabwe!) There are a family and a single woman who are Filipino. There is one Hispanic family. There are three couples of mixed race (in two cases, an African American husband and a Caucasian wife, one of whom is our youth minister and his wife; the other is a Caucasian husband and a wife from an Eastern country -- I dont think Ive asked whether Japan or Korea or Vietnam). We have a family from India. We have had in past members or regular attenders from Japan, China, a South American country (Ive forgotten which one), and even Long Island (thats a different world, isnt it?)

As far as economic structure, we have at one extreme a number of families who struggle to get by each month, and to whom weve given various forms of aid. We have several single mothers who exe out a living for their children. We have a couple of guys who have a hard time keeping a good job, because of the way theyve ruined their health in past secular living. On the other hand, we have families that make 70 and 80 and 100 thousand dollars a year or more, because of the way theyve worked up through their respective industries. We have a man who is an international known technical writer. We had (until he retired and moved to Canada) the manager of the Shearon Harris Nuclear Plant. Weve got a guy who could afford to give his power boat to the church, to sell so that the church could have the money. And I know that these men give lots to the church, and lots to benevolence. Many has been the time when a struggling family received a check from the church, funded by a donation given by these men and their families. My family itself has been such a recipient at a hard time.

I dont say all this to brag, but to show that it does happen, this sought-after mixture of race and economic station. I will certainly concede that it doesnt happen as much as it ought, and in every place that it ought. How did it happen at Cary? It happened because we strive to make Cary Christian Church a place where people feel welcome, whoever they are. We strive to share the spirit of Christ with everyone who visits. And it happens because some of our people go out of their way to bring along the people they know. God has honored that effort to some degree, by leading to us people of various racial and economic backgrounds. In fact, you know the group of people that we retain the least percentage of when they visit? Middle- to upper-class white folks. Dunno why. (It may be because thats who visits the most, but the fact stands.)

Could we do better? Sure. We arent as complete as we ought to be, or as wed like to be. But were getting better. And its happening in a number of places around Raleigh. Its happening in the denominational world more effectively than in the Christian Church world, as a general rule. That is to our shame.

How do we make the churches more open to people of all economic levels and racial backgrounds. 1) Go out and find them -- them being everyone. Personal evangelism of family, friends and co- workers is still the best way to see the church grow. Bring them to Christ, and youll bring them to the church. 2) Make them feel at home in the truth when they find you. We still need to work harder at number one, but were getting better at the second.

-- Anonymous, December 13, 1999

"In fact, you know the group of people that we retain the least percentage of when they visit? Middle- to upper-class white folks. Dunno why."

Could it be because that's the one group that you have made UNwelcomed...?

-- Anonymous, December 13, 1999

If you're serious about the question, here's my answer: I think it may be because we middle- to upper-class white folk tend to be the ones who vote with their feet based on the principle (mentined by Mark above) of "Are they like us? Do we like the facility, or the preacher's attitude, or the music, or the Sunday School class? Is it our kind of place?", etc. In other words, it is my opinion, I think, that we tend to "shop" for a church like we'd shop for a car -- try a bunch, and find the one that makes us feel most comfortable, and that has the features we like.

One of the things I had wanted to say in the last big posting but forgot to include is this: I think the reason we have something of a cross-section of folks is that we don't target any particular group. We encourage the believers to be witnesses to the people they know, and we try to make the church a place where those people can be brought to experience the love and life of Jesus when it's time. I certainly don't claim 100% success -- we'd like to be perfect, but we know we're not. But whether you're at the top or bottom of the social ladder, we want you to feel like you have a home with us.

Do some of us have problems showing that? Sure. Imperfect people make for an imperfect church. Do we reach everybody we could? No. We're working on it. With the grace of God, we'll continue to improve.

-- Anonymous, December 14, 1999

"I think the reason we have something of a cross-section of folks is that we don't target any particular group."

Not yet, anyway.

It will be a cross-section ONLY until one group gains dominance of numbers. When that happens, the others will being to drift away. The white middle-class folks were just the first to go, because they could afford to. The others will leave later on, when they start to feel uncomfortable. And they will, inevitably -- it's basic human nature to want to be among one's own kind & worship in a familiar atmosphere.

If the new majority can afford to keep the church afloat, it will survive & flourish. If the new majority can't/won't support the church, it will close.

Unfortunately, it's not that much different from a business. There's a bottom line here too: If you alienate the people who are most likely to open their wallets, your church will be doomed, regardless of how much love you have for those who remain.

-- Anonymous, December 14, 1999

Sam,

I must admit to not knowing the mix of my own current congregation. I brought the racial mix issue up this summer to one vocational minister of the congregation. Actually what I did was note that the overheads portrayed mostly white people (we use overhead slides rather than songbooks, and the slides have lyrics and appropriate pictures). His answer showed they were thinking: the slides supposedly reflect proportionately the racial mix of Cary. He further said that the ratio of blacks to total population at Crosspointe exceeds that of Cary.

My previous congregation, where I was on the leadership team, we sweated racial mix quite a bit. We did have the economic mix, for certain, as I well knew, since I coordinated ministries to the poor. I both helped the poor within the congregation, plus helped the rich find avenues for giving to the poor. As for our racial mix, we were striving hard, in prayer first but in other ways too, to draw those pioneers into the mix. When I left there to move to North Carolina, we did have several hispanic families, a couple of black single mom led families, a brother and two sisters from Chad, but no African-American adult males and no Asians out of 200. Ronnie, our full-time minister, was trying hard to recruit some of his friends from other congregations he planted to move to Dallas, and among them were some African-American males. When I left to accept a job in RTP, NC, we had made a paid position offer to a guy that happened to be the son of Portugese immigrants (he decided to plant churchs in Southern California instead).

As far as a solution goes, I think the best situation is when it happens naturely. But once a congregation reaches a certain size, if it hasn't happened, then I think you end up having to be proactive. 1) why didn't it happen? 2) well, now, we are all of x background, how do we make those of y and z backgrounds comfortable enough in our midst? If your group is of forty or so and a person is accepted in the group regardless of background, then they may join, but if your group is 80, 100, more, even if they feel comfortable, they may hesitate.

Sometimes you can have a problem and not know it. One congregation I was apart of once, a congregation of 2000, did have a good racial mix, though all the ministers were white. The worship service had always been led by lay leadership, but they admitted the quality dropped signifcantly from the "first team" worship leader (song leader) to the second team. Since the first team leader often travelled on business, he could do the job only half the time. So they hired a nationally known worship leader, a guy in increasing demand for conferences and church's special events. He happened to be black. There was an exodus of members attributeable to this. Since a lot of people wouldn't admit the real reason when it was the hire, it is hard to pinpoint numbers, but it may have been as high as 300.

-- Anonymous, December 14, 1999

To Eventually Everyone Votes:

You said: "Not yet, anyway.

It will be a cross-section ONLY until one group gains dominance of numbers. When that happens, the others will being to drift away. The white middle-class folks were just the first to go, because they could afford to. The others will leave later on, when they start to feel uncomfortable."

i guess you didn't read what I wrote very well. There is still a very dominant-in-numbers group in our congregation -- white middle- class. We're not losing the ones that are already here. We are gaining mostly in that segment. we ARE also gaining in other segments, but we are mostly gaining in the dominant segment of white middle-class.

It seems to me that you are selling that group short. Yes, you'll lose some as you integrate more. You'd also lose black members of a predominantly black congregation as more non-blacks become involved.

But Mark's original point was, it doesn't have to be that way, for Christians who love the Lord first. And MY point was that it isn't completely that way everywhere.

-- Anonymous, December 14, 1999

Mark:

"the slides supposedly reflect proportionately the racial mix of Cary. He further said that the ratio of blacks to total population at Crosspointe exceeds that of Cary."

yeah, we've go to admit, there certainly aren't as many non-whites of ANY race in Cary as there are in most of the Triangle. But it sounds like Crosspointe is trying do so something worthwhile and reasonable.

"As far as a solution goes, I think the best situation is when it happens naturely."

Agreed. Church growth happens because Christians bring to the Lord the people they know.

"But once a congregation reaches a certain size, if it hasn't happened, then I think you end up having to be proactive. 1) why didn't it happen? 2) well, now, we are all of x background, how do we make those of y and z backgrounds comfortable enough in our midst? If your group is of forty or so and a person is accepted in the group regardless of background, then they may join, but if your group is 80, 100, more, even if they feel comfortable, they may hesitate."

That's certainly true, and it would make a good argument for Nelta's usual position. Possible solutions? Emphasis on small groups fellowship and study. Emphasis on Sunday School classes ("the original small groups ministry!"). The "cell church" approach. Any of which would probably work great at Crosspointe. And, in fact, may already BE working great. The biggest difficulty with them that I've experienced is keeping the group small enough by saying to some folks, "Yes, I know you wnant to go with that family, but they've got too many now, and we need you over here with THIS group." Splitting the church up unnaturally is problematic, as well as virtually impossible to do in a non-offensive way that makes a lot of poeple satisfied with their fellowship in the church.

"So they hired a nationally known worship leader, a guy in increasing demand for conferences and church's special events. He happened to be black. There was an exodus of members attributeable to this."

To his being black, or to his style of worship and musical preferences? If the former, then there are deep problems. If the latter, then it's not a deep problem, but one (as stated well by "everyone votes" -- see above convos") which must be dealt with in some way.

I don't remember if I told you, but I work at WPJL, Christian radio in Raleigh (1240 on your AM dial!) I am the music director at the station and have an hour of airtime M-F 7-8am, to play "today's finest praise and worship" to help you get to work or school. (Tune in one morning, and you'll get a voice to go along with the typing you see here.) So I see and hear most of what is being used in P&W these days. You can pretty much divide it up into three, maybe four, categories: 1) a combination of urban and classic black gospel, with lots of call and response, lots of repitition of a line or chorus by a background choir, lots of hip-hop/Top 40 r&b sound (this comes from mostly black but a good number of predominantly white groups -- think Brooklyn Tabernacle Choir); 2) Late 70's/early 80's am radio pop (Integrity, Hosanna, Maranatha stuff)(this class also includes the "country rock" sound made prominent by the Eagles so long ago); 3) Big Band Vegas (think late Elvis) (mostly brought around and made popular by Hillsongs Australia, who also belongs in category 2); 4) late 80's Alternative (mostly used in "seeker service" settings, out of the mainstream). There are a few smaller niches, for more specialized groups (ska and clash for the high schoolers and younger college ages, strong country, seriously hard hip hop or urban contemporary, etc.)

Black churches in the Triangle area tend to use category 1 for the most part; white churches here that are moving away from a "hymnal only" approach tend toward category 2 (Cary and Crosspointe are good examples). I must admit that category two is my favorite to play and sing, and covers some incredible songs that strongly move my heart and spirit. And in deference to "Everybody Votes" (above), I do acknowledge that the style of worship and music used therein may be the prime factor in deciding what congregation to become part of.

Now, is that bad? I don't think so, as long as it's not the first criteria. The first question answered must be, "Does this church teach the truth?" But the question of worship style wil come into the equation at some point.

All this was to say that I hope the group you spoke of left because they didn't like the way the worship style was evolving, and went to find another church that teaches truth and also has a worship style comfortable to them. If they left just because the worship leader was black, then they have deeper problems.

-- Anonymous, December 14, 1999

I wote this as a Journal article. I have been trying to find it for days.

IT'S NOT THE SKIN IT'S THE SIN

by Evangelist James D. Spinnati Director, T.N.T. Ministries

The most segregated place in America is not the work place, the government, or the school system, it is the Church. Furthermore, the most segregated hours in our country are between 9 and 12, and they take place every Sunday morning every week of the year, year end and year out. It is when we (Christians) separate to worship a God that we all claim loves us so much that He sent his Son to die upon the cross for everyone that we might truly be set free. Instead our prejudices bind us and rob us of our purity, holiness, and glory, which is in Christ. Isn't it funny how many will "break their backs" to unite with those who have trashed the plan of salvation, the Lord's Supper, Church polity, and dishonor doctrinal purity and yet at the same time turn their backs or ignore those who are in the Body, just because of their skin color. We somehow have the idea that we will still get to heaven hating those for whom Christ died and this is happening on both sides of the pigmentation. It is not a white or black problem, but it is a catastrophe in the Lord's Church. To view the racists attitude that prevails among "Christians" you don't have to go to their homes, or where they work, just read our periodicals. In Bob Russell's article, Make Us One, in the Christian Standard, he tells about going to Florida and visiting a Black Church.1 Why didn't he just say we visited a Church of Christ, if indeed this was a Church of Christ? What does black or white have to do with our salvation? We proclaim, "Were Not The Only Christians But Were Christian Only", but that slogan seems to only apply when some of our liberal brethren want to include those among denominations, who have never obeyed the Gospel of Christ. Those same brethren, and a lot of others, suddenly forget the motto, that they love, and they end up producing a mutation, thus we have a Black Christian or a White Christian. When we make those distinctions, whether intentional or unintentional the Church's racism is exposed. If you asked Mr. Russell if he was a racists he would strongly disavow it, and I truly believe he isn't, but it just shows how deeply rooted racism is in the Church when we feel compelled to make such distinctions.  This unjustifiable attitude prevails throughout America and the world. It was this same attitude that produced sin in the First Century and it is still sin today. Why do you think the Apostle Paul penned the words in Galatians 3:28 & 29? There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. It was because the Jews hated the Greeks, the free looked down upon the slave, and the male thought of the female as inferior in Christ. Prejudice continues to haunt the halls of Christianity, like the fog that intermittently engulfs London. I remember in Lima Ohio, where I was preaching at the time, a family in the Church said that they would tolerate a black couple in the services, but they were not going to sit by them. I immediately informed them , and the Church in general, that if they didn't want to sit by this couple in the assembly they didn't have to worry about going to heaven with them either. God will not put up with such attitudes. Ghandi was tired of the Hindu system. He knew it didn't have the answers to all the problems that beset humanity and he had heard talk about a new religion, Christianity. He traveled a long distance to receive further instruction in this new thinking. When he arrived at the Church he was told, by the "Christians" that attended there, that he needed to go back to his own people. Ghandi wrote later that if Christianity had a cast system too, they were no better than the Hindus. It's too bad that he was Not looking at Christ, but what Christians do in the name of Christ. Paul speaks to us about renewal in Colossians 3:9 - 11. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Paul tells us that all there is in reality is Christ. Everything outside of Christ shall pass away. Christ is all that really matters! Christ is all and He is in all who have obeyed the gospel. Christ permeates and indwells in every member of his body. Racism and prejudice flow out of the old man, love and truth flow out of the new man.

We seem to forget that it isn't a matter of black or white, but of lost or saved. One man recently told the story about being on a cruse ship. They had to have a life boat drill and everyone, crew included, was to participate. They were to adorn their yellow life vests and report to the top deck for evacuation. When the alarm sounded the passengers and crew alike assembled. As he observed the distinguished and the commoner he noticed that they were wearing tuxedos, evening dresses, and work clothes, from maids to executives and yet they all looked the same. They were all wearing the one thing that could save them, those yellow life vests. It is the same way in the Church. It does not matter what our status, economic level, or color is. Everyone has to have the same life preserver. When we put on Christ we are all the same. Everything we were has been stripped away and replaced with what we are. We are to be like Him. .

So make no mistake about it the thing that separates us is not the skin its the sin.

-- Anonymous, December 16, 1999

Another thought that has come to mind concerning "toleration" I wouldn't want to be tolerated....meaning that someone has to put up with me......I want to be loved in the fold! More thoughts as i read through the threads! Coming from a different point of view consideraing what my family has endured for the sake of tolerarion. kathy C. ><>

-- Anonymous, December 16, 1999

New info, from Barna research, that relates to this thread:

Existing Stereotypes about African-Americans Are Way Off the Mark--and Impede Reconciliation February 1, 2000

(Ventura, CA) Next time you see an African-American person, tell yourself that what you think you know about them is probably wrong. That advice is based on a new study released by the Barna Research Group of Ventura, California, concerning African-Americans, entitled "African-Americans and Their Faith." The study explores their lifestyles, attitudes, relationships and faith and arrives at some surprising conclusions - including many that nullify the stereotypes held of black people and black churches.

Life Is Good

A common perspective is that blacks are dissatisfied with life and have little to look forward to in the future. The research provides an entirely different portrait of blacks. They emerge as very positive and upbeat. For instance, almost nine out of ten (85%) describe themselves as "happy," three out of four (72%) think of themselves as "successful" and half (50%) say that they are "financially comfortable."

Even young blacks possess a generally upbeat attitude about their life. A survey among African-American teenagers discovered that more than nine out of ten black teens (94%) described themselves as "excited about my future." While they are not naove about the realities of American culture, relatively few feel burdened by insurmountable racism. Just 9% of black teens say that they feel "oppressed."

The Movement Has Dissipated

Social analysts note that a key to building a movement is for a group to understand how it is being oppressed and to convert its suffering into a compelling cause. Possessing a common experience and perspective was key to the progress achieved by Martin Luther King Jr. and the Civil Rights Movement in the sixties.

The prevailing stereotype is that the black population of our nation has retained its sense of community and common purpose. The research shows, however, that today most blacks do not feel that they are part of a cohesive community, perhaps due to the absence of a sense of urgency and shared perspective. Three out of every four black adults (74%) and almost two-thirds of black teenagers (62%) concur that race relations in America are getting worse rather than better. (Interestingly, whites have the opposite perspective.) But the probability of blacks banding together today to address such issues is limited by the fact that only one out of every three African-American adults (34%) claims that there is a real sense of unity among blacks these days.

Faith, Front and Center

One of the most remarkable findings of the research is the significance of faith in the lives of black Americans. Reliance on the principles of their Christian faith, more than anything else, explains how this segment has been able to maintain a positive outlook on life in the midst of challenging experiences.

For instance, when asked to identify their goals in life, the top-rated goal - listed as "very desirable" by 94% - was to have a close, personal relationship with God. That goal surpassed even such tangible, culturally acceptable desires as having good health and living comfortably.

The depth of faith among blacks was further demonstrated by the conviction, held by 92%, that in times of crisis they are "absolutely certain" that they can count on God to answer their prayers. A similar percentage of black adults also say that their faith is a source of emotional strength.

A majority of African-American adults even go so far as to maintain that the only reason to live is to know, love and serve God. That is a much higher proportion than is found among either whites or Hispanics. Black adults are also substantially more likely than any other ethnic group to believe that the Bible is totally accurate in all that it teaches.

Further, half of all black adults directly attribute their ability to handle prejudice and to endure the injustice that they encounter to their focus on their anticipated life after death, based on their faith in Christ.

There were numerous indicators of the centrality of the Christian church in the lives of black adults. Among the most telling findings was the fact that two-thirds of all African-American adults listed pastors as the most important leaders and primary spokespeople for the black community. Among the black pastors interviewed, the most commonly listed church priority was helping people in crisis. Another dominant role of the church was to bring black people together and connect them around a common purpose.

Differences Placed in Context

The profile of blacks' attitudes and their faith commitment stands in stark contrast to the profile of the Caucasian population of the U.S. "Placing the profile of whites and blacks side by side is like looking at people from different sides of the planet," commented George Barna, the president of the organization that conducted the research. "While whites tend to be self-reliant, blacks are more likely to rely on God. Whites persevere on the basis of their drive to achieve; blacks, on the basis of their faith. Whites turn to business leaders and government officials to represent them in the world; blacks support their religious leaders. These two groups have very divergent strategies for interpreting and dealing with virtually every aspect of life."

Barna also noted that some of the stereotypes of blacks will die hard among whites. "For most whites, the perspectives of black people make no sense. Being happy in spite of a very high proportion of single-parent families, feeling financially comfortable in spite of a substantially lower household incomes, and describing themselves as successful despite being shut out of the highest ranks of government and corporate America makes no sense to the average white person. But what most whites don't comprehend is that African-Americans perceive and approach life on the basis of completely different assumptions. This confusion explains why reconciliation efforts have largely failed in our country. Whites are trying to bring about reconciliation based on a white view of reality and within the context of white lifestyles and goals."

The faith focus of blacks also prompted some unexpected comments from the California-based researcher. "The research findings demonstrate why most of the efforts at developing multi-racial congregations or creating multi-ethnic worship services fall flat. These different population groups have relatively little in common. They may believe in the same Jesus, but the ways in which they express their faith and experience their savior are radically different. Frankly, our interviews suggested that most blacks don't have much interest in being part of a multi-racial worship experience. They don't hate whites and they do not dismiss the white spiritual experience - but neither do they feel any need to appropriate it as their own. Their faith culture is unique and is one life element that blacks are neither willing to alter nor abandon."

Research Methodology

These findings are based on a report about blacks entitled "African-Americans and Their Faith," written by George Barna. The report is based upon a series of surveys conducted with African-American adults, African-American teenagers and the pastors of black churches. In total, the report includes data from interviews with more than 1100 black adults, approximately 400 black teenagers and 400 pastors of black Christian churches across the nation. All of the interviews were based on random sampling techniques and were conducted via telephone.

-- Anonymous, February 01, 2000