Aside from feeling like we're living back in the 60's (yes these are the same types of folks throwing a fit), does anyone else wonder about the abject wierdness of the groups participating in this "protest" and the organization they are protesting against?

It's like Satan protesting Satan. It makes no real sense on the surface. But I have an angle on this I've not yet heard debated, but first an observation:

Both the WTO and the myriad groups protesting in Seattle are of a Leftist/Socialist ideology. The WTO is comprised of Globalists that seek an "even-playing field" around the globe for trade....meaning they want to plunder the United States and redistribute our wealth around the globe, or distribute worldwide misery equally. It's a general statement I know, but there's only so much bandwidth to list the history and policies of the WTO, so I will stick to the generalization...for now.

The groups having media prominence are also of a Leftist bent that seeks to "raise" standards (which is impossible the way they are suggesting), and to protest free trade which many have said is unfair...which requires a global standard to mete-out the things they are demanding.

Like I said, it's like George W. Bush, protesting George W. Bush....it makes no real logincal sense.

Unless it's to achieve a perception goal.

I would not be surprised if these Rent-A-Mob groups are part of a coordinated attempt to further the aims of the WTO much faster and further than would normally happen. It really is an ingenious plan by TPTB. The media is like ravens on a carcass highlighting each and every view of these group members, so that we can "understand" why they are protesting. These groups combined embody Everything the mainstream press stands for and expose's for us on a daily basis.

So these groups are having their views slammed in front of the national conciousness: "Free Trade is BAD, it is unfair Americans have a better living standard at the expense of laborers in other countries, Capitalism is evil, free markets destroy animals, profits are evil, eating meat is evil, government must solve these problems by enacting laws so everyone is equal." These are ALL quotes I heard from "protesters" today on various news stories.

The aims of both the WTO, the Unions and these protesters at-large are the same: to create mechanisms of protections, shared wealth and prosperity, and the ability to enforce them. In a nutshell; Socialism...because the only way they have suggested to do so is to erect regulations, and transfer the wealth to centrallized control.

Is it not possible that Presidente Clinton, will enter the melee, suggest these "protesters" be given a voice at this conference, enact and purpote new treaties and acts that achieve the shared goals of both the WTO and the protesters...and then be crowned savior and king for his courageous "intervention"?

The media will love it, the "protesters" will love it...the WTO will love it...and you the American people will be told "you WILL love it", and during this whole happy love-fest we will have lost more sovereignty, more dollars out of our pockets in taxes, lost jobs, and limited and decreased profits...but Clinton and the WTO get everything they wanted. And the "protesters" believe they will get what they want too.

And no one will care or wonder how this will affect Joe Sixpack...because we are all aglow and awash in the warm-fuzzy glows of emotionalism and manipulation by the greatest politician and propagandist of our age.

We have been duped here folks. Two groups that are fundamentally on the same side, getting out the worldview that Capitalism and free trade are harmful. And a boy-king shall lead them together.

Just my little speculation on what's going on in Seattle.

Are these surreal times or what?

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), December 01, 1999

Answers

Won't happen.

Too pat.

>"<

-- SH (squirrel@huntr.com), December 01, 1999.

Screw you, you know-nothing dill-weed.

50,000 to 100,000 committed people taking time off from their lives to voice concern for the coming one-world-government.

Agent-provocateurs, FBI plants start a small riot. The press only covers the bullshit -- not the ideas behind the protest, not the thousands of non-violent, peaceful citizens.

You think you are better than them planted in front of your Chinese-made computer, complaining.

I want the don't the suits running my country, how bout you?

-- Not you (someonegives@shit.com), December 01, 1999.

INVAR,

Fascinating assessment. Sounds kinda like our elections...the Democans verses the Republicrats. So will we all happy-glowy turn in our weapons like the NWO children in the DIA murals?

Disclaimor: not that I own anything more lethal than an 80 pound golden retriever; but, hypothetically...

-- Hokie (nn@va.com), December 01, 1999.

Gawd, INVAR, I think you are on to something. With "not you" being an obvious government stooge.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), December 01, 1999.

Hey "Not",

You said: "50,000 to 100,000 committed people taking time off from their lives to voice concern for the coming one-world-government. "

I heard NOT ONE PERSON OR COMMENTARY from ANY newsource whether on cable, radio, TV or internet say they were protesting a "one world government". Not ONE.

The unions sure weren't there for that. Neither was the Sierra Club, Greenpeace or the other myriad assemblants that I saw covered and interviewed from local and national news organizations.

Almost every newscast whether radio or T.V. spent time probing "WHY" they were protesting....not just the riot. The media was on this the day before yesterday....BEFORE the riots broke out today.

Never said nor suggested I was better than anyone else. I just posted an observation you didn't like.

So much for discourse.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), December 01, 1999.

--I thought about this this evening when i saw the king on the toob sorta kinda weasling around just s smidgen of praise for the protest, in a way, then ....I dunno, seems plausible somewhat. I DO know that any situation can be taken advantage of, wheels within wheels. Just like y2k was recognized early on and taken advantage of. I posted on the strange coalition of normally different groups, it's not all left wingers protesting. There's a spread, even pat buchanan is on the protest side. Not sure, see what shakes out over nite and tomorrow. It IS a great excuse to use agent provacatuers, and we do have dot mil presence now...h-m-m-m-m sometime I'll have to tell ya my 60's story, at least one of them, most interesting.....

-- zog (zzoggy@yahoo.com), December 01, 1999.

ISSUE 1650 Wednesday 1 December 1999

Rioters attack police at Euston By David Millward, Sebastien Berger and Michael Paterson

RIOTERS set fire to an overturned police van and fought running battles with officers in central London last night during a protest against the World Trade Organisation.

In scenes similar to the anti-capitalism riot in the City in June, injured demonstrators were led from the scene with blood streaming from cuts as thick smoke filled the air. The violence coincided with similar demonstrations in Seattle where the World Trade Organisation talks are being held.

An estimated 1,000 people gathered outside Euston station at the start of the evening rush hour for what was initially a peaceful demonstration. The trouble flared after hundreds of campaigners surged towards a wall of waiting riot police. A firework was thrown, in what appeared to have been a pre-arranged signal for the attack to begin.

A police car was driven back as missiles rained on officers in riot gear. Many of the protesters - some wearing masks - were determined to bring chaos to those commuters remaining at the station. A group of about 100 attacked a parked British Transport Police van and succeeded in toppling it. The mob cheered as it burst into flames.

Police with batons and shields surged forward and encircled hundreds of protesters, herding them into the station courtyard where the ground was strewn with broken glass and beer cans.

Traffic on the busy Euston Road was brought to a standstill as the protesters hurled missiles at the officers and a large group staged a sit-down in the road. Dozens of police vans lined the area as snatch squads moved in to make arrests as violence flared again.

A Scotland Yard spokesman said a decision to close Euston Station had been taken "to protect the safety of the public". She said there were about 500 demonstrators inside at the time. The spokesman said: "Shortly before 7pm outside Euston Station police officers came under unprovoked attack from a violent group of approximately 100 demonstrators throwing missiles at them.

"Police officers wearing protective clothing and equipment were deployed to the scene. No officers were believed to have been injured. Protesters have attacked and set fire to a British Transport Police van. London Fire Brigade are at the scene and dealing with that.

"Euston Station is being closed now to protect the safety of the public. Five hundred protesters were at the scene. Only a minority are involved in violence. Nevertheless, we condemn the actions of the violent minority."

Early reports indicated that six protesters had minor injuries, and one police officer had dislocated a shoulder. A line of police officers took the names, addresses and photographs of those penned in by Euston station for further investigation.

A small number of protesters were determined to stay. Many sat down while hundreds of others waited patiently to be released. Glen Smyth, chairman of the Metropolitan Police Federation, condemned the violence. He said: "I am horrified that the right to protest has been abused by people in this way.

"The treatment they are meting out to Metropolitan Police officers is nothing short of a disgrace. This is tantamount to eco-terrorism and those responsible should face the full weight of the law. If you want to change the world there are ways to do it and this is not the way. This is a disgrace."

Protesters believed to belong to the Reclaim the Streets campaign said that the violence erupted because the heavy police presence had stopped efforts at a peaceful demonstration. They admitted throwing missiles but claimed that they had acted "out of pure frustration".

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), December 01, 1999.

Old Git, I am speechless!!!

(go figure)

-- Hokie (nn@va.com), December 01, 1999.

Just remember this: Bill Clinton is the ULTIMATE POLITICIAN. NOTHING that makes the news on his pet flunky shows is accidental. If there is even one stick, one strand of political hay to be made from ANYTHING that is reported on the news, Bill Clinton will make it. He leaves nothing to chance. Don't forget, the boy is bucking for promotion to King of the world. No unplanned events allowed. Got that?

-- Liz Pavek (lizpavek@hotmail.com), December 01, 1999.

You remind me of an event we saw earlier. Remember when the "protesters" screamed at a press conference for Al Gore. The odd part was the so called protesters actually "stormed the podium." The V.P. looked kind of amused and Trippered out Gore took a picture. The secret service let the protesters on the stage. How could that not be staged. I believe the purpose was a feeble attempt to make Al look less of a leftist extremist for the general election. But the secret service didn't even circle the V.P. with this disruption.

These people will do anything for their cause even play rent a mob. Why would the WTO out of nowhere garner such hatred when we live in the best of times. The populace can't even get worked up about the Pres. fibbing, selling secrets and selling out because the stock market is so high. Guess what the stock market is still to high. But this is laying the groundwork for a state of emergency not looking so bad. Well so what if we have National Guard troops on the street at least its peaceful.

This event does indeed look a little too pat, smelling sardines.

"Something wicked this way comes."

Squid

-- squid (Itsdark@down.here), December 01, 1999.

Ivan understand what you are saying have thought that might be the plan the inviormentol groups are all marxist(gpo's?) can't spell or type well, sometimes can't think but, I feel living here in no tv land that this is a ploy of some sort...maybe been around the birds and deer to long but it feels like the sixties with undercurrents for sure.

-- sandy (rstyree@overland.net), December 01, 1999.

Invar-

I think you are on to something here, in terms of Clinton's thinking, and the general political orientation of these folks. I very much support these protests, however, which perhaps aren't putting their actions in terms of ending "world government," but are clearly opposing the world govt.'s machinations. I wonder why no one here is taking note of that and giving a cheer for this open opposition to the NWO, globalloney-types. Hmmm......

I also wonder why people on this post are so skeptical. I've seen a lot of the protestors here in Oregon, on their way up, and believe me, these are no "rent-a-mobs." I know a couple of them personally. Believe me, their not getting federal checks on this one (aside from maybe a possible audit should their identities become known)

I'm not precluding the possibility that there may be agent provocateurs, but I have to agree with "not you" here in saying that they are probably more in line with the FBI or some other profoundly non-leftist group.

My guess, and it's only a guess, is that we will see the violence escalate, and that the really serious violence will not really be from the protestors, but from these agents fomenting it.

Nonetheless, I think your analysis is interesting and deserves thought, albeit with some revision as well.

sean

-- sean (Im@impressed.but_a_bit_perplexed), December 01, 1999.

Yes, I know many of those people too and they are people who care about the globalization of the planet and the control by corporations. This has been well-planned by many of the protesters and hopefully those that are causing the violence will be exposed. But probably the media will paint them all with one brush. Please go to the websites I gave in other posts to get a clear picture of who the protestors are and what they are protesting!

It truly is an amazing thing.

-- Sheri (wncy2k@nccn.net), December 01, 1999.

Sean everything is perplexing, these days

-- sandy (rstyree@overland.net), December 01, 1999.

INVAR,

I consider myself an environmentalist and at the same time I would prefer a world without globalization, the UN, and WTO...and by the way I'm also a Christian! Whooaaa, you may think I'm a little confused. Well, I'm not. My logic is sound. What's interesting about protest is that memes are melding. We're finding that we have a common perspective and a common enemy: money. The skies-the-limit drive for increasing profits by a powerful elite damages us all. Great caches of wealth drains our life-support system [the environment] just as much as it hurts our children, for when our earth suffers so do we. The TV stare-tube and grocery counter magazines with their "sex-sells" advertising drives big-media, pushes the morally-weakened masses' internal sex buttons, which deteriorates our families. This cascading-failures in our families in turn creates a collective psychology that's scarier than any Hollywood fear-mongering flick. A Kingdom-serf world still exists, and we're getting a glimpse of a few our mighty lords at this WTO summit.

My knowledge-base is nested in the concepts of ecology, where if you look closely, you will find the same stories, morals, and visions that are found in the Bible. Those who wrote the Bible were people who lived with the land and the stories came from there. Wilderness is fading fast and there is where our bible began.

Hopefully soon, we, Moralists, Christians, and Environmentalists, will be hand-in-hand in a wonderful new world. We will then be able to teach our children how to be stewards of our world.

-- steward (Perspectives@coming.together), December 01, 1999.

Steward,

I happen to be an atheist, but I'd like to post a word of thanks, and support for what you posted. I think there really is a recognition that we have just lost our bearings.

I would also like to show you a passage from a speech I came across recently:

<<<<<<<<< Throughout America's adventure in free government, our basic purposes have been to keep the peace; to foster progress in human achievement, and to enhance liberty, dignity and integrity among people and among nations. To strive for less would be unworthy of a free and religious people. Any failure traceable to arrogance, or our lack of comprehension or readiness to sacrifice would inflict upon us grievous hurt both at home and abroad. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Is it just me, or are we suffering grievously right now??

This was from President Eisenhower's farewell speech. These are words of wisdom, of worthiness, of reason, of hope.

Two years later, President Kennedy was executed an arrogant fashion, by a dangerous, powerful, nefarious faction of what, in an earlier section of the same speech, Eisenhower called the "Military- Industrial Complex."

And now the faction which enacted that coup (at the direction of a much more powerful group, a "power elite") hold dominion over the channels of the government, over the major media, and are not so much allied with, but rather are one and the same with those multinational corporations which swell like menacing leviathans whose center is nowhere but whose circumference is everywhere (Augustine reference there). Those are the very corporations which are meeting now in Seattle. Their life's blood is the money fed them via mythical credit-creation power we have ceded to them in increasing proportions since 1913.

We live in these chains. I think immoral greed fuels the belief, on the part of the elite, that the people must be chained, as well as the belief, on the part of the people, that these chains are unbreakable. That is where we are now.

Best regards to all,

sean

-- sean (less@perplexed_thanks_to.sandy), December 01, 1999.

i know what you mean INVAR. i would agree, however, that all the protesters don't fit the bill you describe and i SAY MORE POWER TO THEM. LEFT OR RIGHT, I APPLAUD THEIR SPEAKING OUT!!!!!

i do think it is normal for "satan's" forces to self destruct (it happens alot) and you can see it 1) in the way satan will use people to do such evil things and then he disposes of them or gets them to dispose of themselves at the end (e.g., shooters trying to kill themselves after they said a voice told them to do something), and 2) organizations that do evil begin battling within their own ranks (e.g., many of the globalists are bickering even though they share a common goal).

-- tt (cuddluppy@nowhere.com), December 01, 1999.

I agree with Sandy! I understand your point but it's silly to assume all leftist agendas are the same, even if the groups "combine" parts of their agendas in the end. Believe it or not, every leftist is not a communist, globalist, or socialist; in fact, I find the contrary to be true more often than not.

-- Mori-Nu (silkenet@yahoo.com), December 01, 1999.

Upon closer evaluation I'm not sure I've interpreted Sandy's post correctly; if that's the case, sorry. Doesn't matter -- I stand by my writing.

-- Mori-Nu (silkenet@yahoo.com), December 01, 1999.

INVAR

Good call. Agent Provocateurs...mob mentality. Perhaps, as stated, many of the individuals at the gathering had nothing more violent planned than a Ghandi-esk civil diobediance protest, but as many saw, one or two people, with the right attitudes and actions, can "stir up trouble" rather quickly...Be interesting to see what happens today.

-- Billy Boy (Rakkasan101st@aol.com), December 01, 1999.

From the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_544000/544517.stm

Wednesday, 1 December, 1999, 10:21 GMT

Clearing up is underway in London following violent clashes between police and anti-capitalist demonstrators.

Forty people were arrested and a police van set alight during the disturbances, which were part of an international day of protest to mark the opening session of the World Trade Organisation (WTO) talks in Seattle. Seven people, including a policeman, were injured.

Violence in Seattle led the Mayor, Paul Schell, to declare a civil emergency and call in National Guard troops, just hours before US President Bill Clinton's visit to address the WTO.

In London, about 500 activists gathered outside Euston railway station at the height of the evening rush hour, forcing police to close the busy Euston Road and block the way for homeward-bound commuters.

The largely peaceful demonstration erupted in violence when a group of 100 campaigners surged forward towards a wall of waiting police in riot gear.

A police car was forced back as missiles rained on officers.

Public disorder

A Scotland Yard spokesman said there had been 40 arrests, mainly for public order offences, offensive weapons, violent disorder, threatening behaviour and affray.

Two people are due to appear in court on Wednesday charged in connection with the disturbances.

Keith Spence, 23, of Clapham, south London, and unemployed Gareth Williams, 20, are accused of violent disorder.

Student John Williams, 26, from Brixton, south London, is charged with disorderly behaviour and will appear before the same court on 8 December. Paul Robinson, 31, from north-west London, will appear on 9 December accused of violent disorder and common assault.

One man has been released on bail to return to Kentish Town police station in connection with a common assault charge.

The remaining 35 have yet to be charged or released.

Tuesday's events started slowly, with only a few dozen people protesting at Trafalgar Square, Downing Street and Oxford Street.

But by about 1730 GMT some 500 protesters had converged on Euston, ] encouraged by fly posters [flyers] which had appeared around the capital overnight.

Bottles, cans and sticks

Trouble flared when small groups at the front of the crowd attempted to breach lines of police guarding the station and were followed by their fellow protesters.

Riot police moved in to push the mob back as bottles, cans and sticks were hurled at officers.

A British Transport Police [traffic police] van was overturned by the crowd and set on fire, covering the scene with a thick blanket of black smoke as masked demonstrators fought baton-wielding police.

Protesters emerged bleeding from the melee as officers attempted to push them away from the burning van, fearing it might explode.

'A violent minority'

One policeman, PC Paul Squires, 32, was injured when he was hit over the head by a litter bin.

He was taken to St Thomas's Hospital with a suspected spinal injury.

By 1900 GMT the situation had become a stand-off but 30 minutes later there were still up to 150 demonstrators outside the station, with a further 100 close by in Euston Road.

This hard core of protesters was surrounded by police. The demonstrators were systematically searched and dispersed by about 2300 GMT, said Scotland Yard.

"We condemn the actions of this violent minority which marred the otherwise peaceful demonstrations which took place," said a Scotland Yard spokesman.

'Provocation'

Protester Beatrice Stonemore, 21, said she and fellow activists had been cornered by more than 100 officers as they protested outside Euston station.

She said: "I admit that we caused some damage but what do you expect when we were provoked by so many military-style police officers who were not interested in any form of peaceful demonstration."

Ms Stonemore, who has been on several other demonstrations, said she understood there needed to be a police presence but believed this time it had been heavy-handed and too many officers had been involved.

"This won't stop us - all this will do is force us to come out with more numbers next time."

'Bent on violence'

Commander Judy Davison, of the City of London Police, said a hard core of 150 people had started the trouble and had been "bent on violence before they got here".

Commander Davison, speaking on behalf of the three forces which policed the riot - British Transport Police, City of London Police and the Metropolitan Police - held up a spanner and said it was one of the missiles thrown at officers during the riot.

"The actions of this minority have nothing to do with expressing a point of view or lawfully protesting about an issue. This is purely yobbish behaviour - it is violence for the sake of it, unnecessary and unprovoked."

["Yobbish": "yob" originally meant "backward boy" or hooligan. The word now refers to hooligans of either sex.]

Four of those taken into custody were arrested in connection with the anti-capitalism riot in the City, London's financial heart, in June.

1. I haven't seen any U.S. reference to the British riots yet, but haven't done a deep search.

2. There are startling similarities between the two demonstrations and the British riot in June.

3. The BBC, owned by the British government, which is left-wing at the moment, refers to the protestors, protests, rioters and riots as "anti-capitalist."

We do live in interesting times.

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), December 01, 1999.

Update: CNN is now showing ITN footage from London.

ITN's URL:

http://www.itn.co.uk/

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), December 01, 1999.

Invar, I have no doubt that Clinton will find a way to further his globalist agenda out of the current chaos, but I really believe the protestors by and large are sincere. There is a huge smoldering fire of anger in the country over the governments cowtowing to big business over the last two generations and the feelings of impotence and worthlessness it has generated in the working public as a whole. what we are seeing in Seattle is just the tip of an iceberg which has the potential to rip this country, indeed the entire world to shreds.

You can put your finger on a specific point in time which has led to the current global situation. That time was 1913 and the specific event was the institution of the Federal Reserve Banks. The institution of fiat money and easy credit created a new class of superparasite which feeds off of the working man. The moneychangers.

Lured by easy credit the American populace became a hoarde of "keeping up with the Jonses" consumers. We built an industrial giant of a nation in the process of meeting those consumption demands, ever more streamlined and technologically advanced, totally ignoring the huge debts that we were incurring as a nation and as individuals.

Cracks were beginning to show in the overall scheme as early as the sixties, and by the seventies the handwriting was on the wall. The advent of the computer, combined with robotics pushed productivity to levels undreamed of only twenty years before, but it also began to disenfranchise the very workers who were the consumer base the entire pyramid was built on.

By the eighties it had become apparent that the American population could no longer support the behemoth manufacturing system it had created, and the bloated government installed to manage it. Corporate raiders financed by junk bond dealers began to systematically dismantle the manufacturing infrastructure of the nation while investors pounded the table demanding higher profit margins from their stocks. A new breed of CEO was born, I call them terminators.

Huge amounts of money flowed into our political system as these special interest sought to shape a government which would be totally compliant to their desires. Nafta and Gatt drove the final nails in the coffin, heralding the onset of corporate flight to third world countries and developing nations.

Through the nineties we were introduced to the concept of temporary workers. Companies ruthlessly exploited the shortage of secure jobs and low payscales to institute an ever smaller employment base based on the revolving door principle. Skilled workers disenfranchised by corporate flight began the cycle of replacing tenured employeees, but only until the corporation could merge with someone else and further disenfranchise it's existing employment base. This cycle cannot continue unabated.

The American population as a whole has incurred tremendous debt, largely through credit cards and second mortgages. Bankruptcy is at an all time high during what the government touts as the most prolonged period of prosperity in the history of this nation. We are not prospering, we are eating ourselves alive. The morphine of easy credit can no longer conceal the pain of our self inflicted wounds, and the protestors in Seattle are the first pangs of what is more than likely going to be a world of screaming agony when the effects of Y2K combine with the effects of our collective greed.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), December 01, 1999.

I guess I should have expanded a little further for clarification. there are two basic futures facing us as a people and a nation if Y2k is left out of the equation.

We can continue down the road of globalization and we will see the average American standard of living drop to the level of perhaps Brazil or Venezueala and lose our national soverignity in the process. This course will eventually lead to the destruction of the planet.

We can island our country with Canada and go isolationist, focusing our rescources on developing alternate energy sources to cut our dependence on foreign oil and developing strategies to recycle our depleted rescources. Only after these technologies have been developed and implemented should we once again begin trying to develop foreign nations.

The people mounting the protest realize this on either a conscious or subconscious level, and that is the explanation for the strange coalition of labor unions and environmentalist. There is not going to be any painless exit from the currrent situation.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), December 01, 1999.

In general, there are strange bedfellows/allies developing that cut across the "typical". Actually, you can see it on this forum in the Y2K alliance between the Christian kooks (that's me) and the libertarian kooks (Uncle Deedah).

Item: the ACLU is joining forces (not officially, I should say) with "militia" and other folks to oppose Echelon.

The alliances between the "globalists", on the one hand, and those who see divine and human wisdom in "localism" (beginning with individual human beings, then families, towns, states, countries in intelligent, voluntary relationship with one another), OTOH, say much about what is happening in Seattle.

.... there will be more of this in the future.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), December 01, 1999.

The rent a mob doesn't mean that the .gov is handing out checks as they load up the black busses. A few leaders can direct and organize the protests and during the protests the actions of the mob are easily directed because of how individuals tend to hand over control to "the group."

This is not the end of WTO by any stretch of the imagination and those who see this as anything more than a few headlines are seriously fooling themselves.

Globalism is a path that is being driven by the left. They see globalism as a way of imparting their control on the rest of the world. It seems silly that those same protestors are wearing their GAP clothes and NIKE shoes. If you read writings from the left think tanks they have been talking about the move toward globalisation for years. There is a huge disconnect with this particular attack against WTO.

-- squid (Itsdark@down.here), December 01, 1999.

INVAR, I think that your question, and the attitudes behind it, show a lack of understanding of subtlties of "the left" that is common among "the right." It appears as though your assumption is that everyone on "the left" is pro-big government/global socialist/transfer the wealth/ yadda yadda yadda... I don't think it's that simple. Let me illustrate this:

A couple of weekends ago, I went to a gathering on a farm that was sponsored by an environmental group. I found out about it from someone on the Ishmael Community mailing list. There were about 50 people there, of all types, but the common concern among the group was that the environment is being damaged and that WE must do something about it. Over the course of 48 hours, there was a lot of discussion in the large group and smaller groups about what can happen.

There were some pretty hardcore environmentalist types there, there were a lot of college students, a few older activists of various kinds (like me) and a few concerned curiosity seekers. There was even one journalist that I was aware of, although I don't think he was there for a story. There was some literature provided about a number of issues, including a few pieces on the WTO. (Dammit! I didn't grab any of it!)

Not once during the course of the event did I hear anyone mention any of these things: Government passing laws as a solution, ANYTHING about government as a solution, Big Business being inherently evil (although certain business PRACTICES may be) Profits being inherently evil, forced redistribution of wealth, the American standard of living being unfair, eating meat was evil, (the meals, which I helped cook, were vegetarian, but there was no comment about it.) Free trade, globalism, taxes or Bill or Hillary Clinton in any context.

The overwhelming sense was that it is up to the INDIVIDUAL, in every decision that one makes, to do what needs to be done to save the environment. There are no large scale programs that can be enacted to save the environment, only small scale decision making. Consumerism is the key, and our attitudes toward "stuff." It must happen at the grass roots and household level, at the attitude level and at the community and local level. Noone can be forced to make the "correct" decisions, people must be shown by example how to live within "our means."

The "warm-fuzzy glow of emotionalism" that took place was the sense that everyone who was there understood that it was up to them as individuals to come together in a culture of reason to try to live smaller lives in a world of big wants, and to attempt to lead by example before the world gets to the point where wants outstrip availability. One of capitalism's techniques for sustaining itself is by creating wants, and one can choose to step outside of that and limit one's wants to what makes sense. It was also understood, that limiting wants would "do damage to the economy," but that might be a price to be paid for protecting the environment.

There was quite a bit of discussion about small scale entrepreneurship, and people coming together to create businesses and co-ops. Profits can be used to create communities, to buy and protect land, to help start other businesses that can create forest products to sustain forests rather than cutting them down, stuff like that.

Frankly, I went there expecting something totally different, and was even prepared to pick a fight. I came away from it with a stronger sense that it is up to the individual to make decisions, and that there are other individuals who see the same thing.

Now, about the WTO and Seattle. I was watching news coverage about this last night, and there was a shot of a young college looking guy, who was very much the type at the gathering that I went to. He was saying to the camera, "we were right up in the cop's faces, and we told them We want a peaceful protest, We want a peaceful protest!. Then all hell broke loose!" I got the strong sense that the violence was provoked, and that the vast majority of the protesters were sickened by it. After it began, I think the mob mentality took over, and the looters took advantage. On one station, there was a shot of an Asian delegate wondering why the police don't take control of the situation. I was alternately cheering the disruption of the meeting, and cringing at the violence of the protest.

I guess my point is that I wouldn't be surprised on the one hand if you are right to some degree about this being a set up, but on the other hand, I think you often portray "the left" using incorrect and too broad brush strokes. I don't believe it is as simple as your worldview may have you believe. Explore the subtlties, INVAR, and you may be surprised...

-- (pshannon@inch.com), December 01, 1999.

To amplify PShannon and Big Dogs points about the unprecedented political syncretism that is occuring: the fight against the emerging global monoculture and government is being led by forces as disparate as Pat Buchanan and Jerry Brown. The anti-globalist wing of the "conservative" movement (I use the term only as a nod to history) revolves around Chronicles Magazine and the followers of Murray Rothbard, like Llewelyn Rockwell. On the "left," (again, a grouping of convenience) we turn to authors like Jerry Mander (In the Absence of the Sacred), Wendell Berry, and Robert Talbott (NetFuture--the finest online work I've encountered: I encourage everyone to read it), as well as the Edward Abbey-derived "Earth Firsters" and other 'Green' groups. Where do they meet? In a common vision of human economies working to serve human communities, and a mutually-felt wariness of the now-skeletal, soon to be muscled transnational government which is rearing up like some Orwellian bad dream. Profit and efficiency will replace love and charity as the lifeblood of this soulless creature now taking shape: all people of good will must contest it: withdraw from the Imperial center: boycott their garbage, the filth they pump into our communities, both physical and spiritual: uphold the idea that we are a sovereign people, a free people, and that we will not be crucified anew on a cross of gold. Their god is Mammon, pure and simple.

-- Spidey (free@last.Amen), December 01, 1999.

Pshannon...

Was this by chance a bio-intensive farming/gardening workshop that you attended?

-- Texas Terri (DeepintheHeart@Texas.com), December 01, 1999.

Agree with both Spidey and Pat. Obviously, strange bedfellows will have a hard time keeping from falling out of bed (heck, we do here) but understanding where the core, spiritual (if you'll permit me to use that word) unity is on this is essential.

Our early American history saw some VERY strange bedfellows, but they were hard-clear on the key issues.

And using Mammon as the signifier is legitimate, even for New Agers or atheists. The warfare between Mammon and all truly human values goes back to the beginning of human history. Globalism in our day enshrines commerce and greed as 'god' beyond anything we have ever seen (listen up, guys, this is said by someone who is always bow-down thankful for the prosperity I have experienced in my life, I ain't a monk, there is a diff between "enjoyment" of good things and "lust").

Try this -- throughout history, absolutism cloaks itself in a variety of attractive guises. Most recently, it was Marxism (abolish poverty, communal utopianism), driven by envy. "Tech-Commerce" (I enjoy "Wired" and kin, though it's tired, but consider the worshipful- ness of it all), driven by greed, is the next candidate. This one is going to be far tougher than Marxism ever was and THAT was hideous.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), December 01, 1999.

BigDog: Instead of 'absolutism,' I'd have substituted plain old 'materialism.' I consider Marxist-Leninist-Maoist communisism and imperial capitalism as two sides of the same coin: a rejection of the Creator, and misguided (and often well-meaning) attempts at building an earthly utopia. It is my belief, strengthened each day by events unfolding around us, that all such attempts are doomed to failure, since the house is built not on the solid rock of Christ but on sand. Atheistic communism is not dead, but only transfigured in its new guise as 'compassionate capitalism,' the better to proffer pleasures to a benighted mankind. "I assure you, God is lying: if you eat the fruit of this tree you shall not die." New lies for old, yes, but the original lie was Lucifer's. World government is, at its core, diabolical. Materialism, with its acolytes Science & Industry, is a passing chimera, "clouds without rain."

-- Spidey (free@last.Amen), December 01, 1999.

Thank you for speaking my mind Nikoli and Sean.

I sure do not relish the job ahead of us....fixing this mess we've made of the world.

The protesting of the WTO has given me new hope that not everyone is asleep and content to ignore the truth of the crazy, stressfilled lifestyle we humans have created for ourselves. It kills me to admit to being part of the problem and having contributed to messing up this planet, not only for our children but for the innocent creatures who share it with us. Mankind has a long way to go before we learn to live. Much humble pie to eat, me thinks! Humans! Sometimes I hate 'em! Thank God the flip side is also true.... There is much to love too!

-- DianeR (HelpUs@Please.com), December 01, 1999.

Interesting Post

Worlds within Worlds

-- hhhhhmmmmm (karlacalif@aol.com), December 01, 1999.

Thanks to (almost) everyone for posting your thoughts. It is indeed an education.

Though I am not as well versed as others here as to the individual machinations of all Liberal/Leftist groups or even Pat Buchannan, I am however observant of the modus operendi of this Administration, the various "spokesmen" of the Left and the use of the left these past six years. They, and many of the groups protesting the WTO actually SHARE the same goals. The WTO, acting as an arbitration arm of trading disputes, intervenes by redistributing the wealth and living standards of others. Many of the "highlighted" groups portrayed in the media, seek to do the same. They both perceive prosperity as a finite pie, needing to lower it from one group in order to raise it in another. The WTO is used to enforce regulations and restrictions on trade, monetary policy, environment and health issues. Many times these regulations are used as weapons for political reasons. The "highlighted" groups WANT enforced regulations and restrictions on trade, monetary policy, environmental and health issues...at least that's what the media is reporting.......so these groups are PROTESTING the very organization that would PROVIDE them exactly what they seek.

While I have no doubt that many of these protesters are sincere and devout in their determination to thwart injustice, I cannot help but notice that the overlying message coming from interviews and media coverage is that Capitalism and Free markets are bad and evil. In that light, I cannot help but notice that they are all protesting America, and the ideology that contributed to our Superpower status.

I find it curious, and cannot help the skepticism. The Unions went a long way towards organizing this protest...and though they themselves may have not rioted, they helped that process along by fueling the atmosphere beforehand. (If Unions are SOOO protectionist as they claim we need to be, why have they not endorsed Pat Buchannan, but instead Clinton and Algore?)

But I wish to respond to a few posts:

Sean:

"Rent-A-Mob" is tongue-in-cheeck. I'm not suggesting they are paid, but they support an ideology that is paid back when they protest via media exposure. (ala: Jesse Jackson's bussing-in protesters from Chicago in Decatur, IL a week or so ago). I'm sure most of these folks protesting ARE sincere, but as you suggested "agent provocateurs" may be small groups or cells that were "directed" by those loyal to this Administration, so as to provide an atmosphere that may be utilized for maximum political expediency. I'm sure if Bill could have gotten the Kyoto Accords ratified through Congress this way...he would have done it. Since THAT agreement was stopped dead in Congress, and Clinton is enacting it through Executive Action, THIS approach or massive protests to enact WTO policies is completely plausible in my mind.

Steward:

As a "Christian", you should know that money in and of itself is not evil, neither is being wealthy. Consider how God rewarded Job after his trials. It's HOW YOU USE AND PURSUE WEALTH that is the problem. Also, where I part views of the eco-crowd, is that according to scripture MAN has dominion over the earth. Not a subject TO earth, not EQUAL with earth, but OVER earth (and all the creatures and plants within it). We were instructed to "tend and keep it", and that well may include the strides in conservation and replenishment we have learned and enacted over the last few decades especially. Where I draw a line is when the life of animals and plants take equal paring with or precedent over humankind. That is Idolatry...and it is wrong. If many of these eco-groups had a balance...I might be sending money their way, as I'm an avid hunter and fisherman that delights in nature and desires the proper balance of harvesting and replenishment.

Old Git: Thanks much for the timely reporting. Scary 'aint it?

Nik:

You describe Fascism well, and how it snuck so silently into our culture and set itself up. I agree with you. I also agree with some protesters that those businesses that are in-bed with politics for massive profits and power alone are a problem. It is a Fascist system emerging, business and commerce together like this.

Whichever way we go Nik, Globalism or Isolationism, will result in pain for our nation. With Globalism we lose our freedom and liberty, and become slaves to a total tyranny of mediocrity, while the Elites live it up. This is the way I think we will go, because the spoiled American today will gladly surrender freedom for a meal and a promise of prosperity. Isolationism is no better, we may have been able to do this in the 50's and 60's but not today. We don't manufacture anything anymore. Pat's Brigade's are missing this point. But ultimately, Isolationism will result in war, it always has and always will, it INVITES invasion and turmoil.

pshannon:

I do not assume that all "Lefties" or Democrats are pro-CENTRAL government/globalist/Socialists. Living in the heart of Yellow-Dog Democrat country, and heralding from the Union mecca that is Chicago has taught me this. But almost ALL Leftists and Democrats see the solutions to problems at the hand of government. Government is the solution, through programs, grants or regulations/restrictions.

However, your friends at that meeting you attended are possibly the majority representing that concern over there in Seattle. The problem is that the folks you describe have no voice, and their presence there lumps them into the radical/whacko groups. It's no different than most true feminists I know. Most of them are pro-family, pro-life and are avid in demanding proper treatment at work and at home, they have no ties to NOW. The problem is that Patricia Ireland and Co. speak for ALL women...because that is who the media goes to time and again for feminist insights, and paints ALL feminist groups as members of NOW. I imagine the same thing is true for the group you described above. I myself am not desiring to paint with the broad brush....but the media does, with Liberals and Conservatives alike.

I suppose you weren't aware that most Conservatives are fat-frumpy White, intolerant, racist, sexist, homophobes with guns? Most folks associate Conservatives with the above because that is how we have been portrayed in the media. Now while there is truth in stereotypes, the line is blurred when we accept what we are forcefed from the media.

But I will tell you that many Leftist Socialists I know that I've had discussion and argument, do believe in the government to solve all problems, and that Capitalism and Free Trade is evil. Most of the avowed Socialists I know personally are members of the Green movement. That is not to say that ALL are as I describe, but in my experience....this is the case. "Individualism is good only when it comes to belief " I have been told by an artist I know who is a self-proclaimed Liberal, "when it comes to living life...THAT needs to be regulated and maintained by a central authority that ensures the equal distribution of resources, because men are evil and cannot be trusted to do for themselves at the exclusion of others."

Simple worldview? No, just conversations past that led to much study and investigation. I am keenly aware of our foundations and where our blessings as a nation have been derrived, and it has not come from the hand of government, but by the Hand of God, and the hands of both our American ancestors, and our hands today.

BigDog:

Amen again Russ, but the PURSUIT of mammon is what is evil. Anything more important than God in your life IS idolatry, whether Marxism, Capitalism, Materialism or Humanism.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), December 01, 1999.

Invar, great response. Along the origional lines of your post it suddenly occured to me that during the riots in Greece last week when Clintoon showed up the media on all major networks were referring to the rioters as "Anarchist". Nothing like getting a little psyops in ahead of time, huh?

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), December 01, 1999.

Nikoli, I was gonna post it, but you beat me to it. Touchet! These protesters have me a little baffled frankly, they should be vandalizing the Federal Reserve building in Washington if they want to go to the root of their anger. They are just too ignorant to know the true target. I get pissed myself when I go to Home Depot and can't find a damn thing mande in America anymore, or even Lichtenstein, its all China for Chrissake! And do they give us a break on the price since they use pollitical prisoner slave labor? Hell no! It's the same as if Americans had made it. And who keeps the gravy? Mister fat-ass CEO of some multinational thats who.

Another missed target of these protesters is the fact that over-regulation, over-taxation and lawsuits has driven many businesses overseas. We urgently need to adress these problems in America as well. And we we will never do that by continuing to elect socialists like Clintax.

-- doktorbob (downsouth@dixie.com), December 01, 1999.