Posted this earlier. What is the smoke the police are spraying at the WTO? If it is tear gas, why aren't the "sprayed" falling to their knees immediately and kissing/slobbering Mother Earth. And if it isn't taer gas, what is it's purpose. Yes, I saw CNN clip earlier. Just need someone with "perience" in tear gas.

-- Smoke Screen (canIget@hand.com), November 30, 1999

Answers

It is not tear gas it is cayenne pepper spray

-- River Soma (riversoma@aol.com), November 30, 1999.

Thank you, but wouldn't Pepper Spray have the same effect. The brand I own seems to suggest same. If this is true, and it was Pepper Spray, why weren't they falling like flys and kissing/slobbering Mother Earth? Thank you.

-- Smoke Screen (canUget@hand.com), November 30, 1999.

Saying on News police used concussion cannisters.

Yep, Civil Emergency, curfew, troops moving in. Clinton due to arrive tomorrow. And the whole world is watching.

a 31-day PREVIEW, folks, while everything's still up & purrrrrrrring.

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), November 30, 1999.

tear gas, cn or cs, the most popular type are only mminimunaly effective in open air. even ligt breezes will tend to disperse them to the point that they are more of an irritant then the are disabling that is why a damp cloth will stave off the worst of the effects. i imagine pepper spray would be simular. only at point blank range might the effects be anywheere near the same as in an enclosed space

-- david house (yellowowl@panhandle.net), November 30, 1999.

Does the word "Custer" ring a bell?

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), November 30, 1999.

MACE is also minimally effective in open air in the concentrations that the nannies will allow the constabulary to use and, barring Pepper spray, what the typical cop has on his belt. The EARLY MACE concentrations WOULD have one working on a love affair with the pavement, but the nannies decided it was TOO effective and there was the odd possibility (LOW probability) of negative cardiac events, terminal asthma attacks, etc.

Chuck, who understands the applications of vaseline, and wash bottles in crowd situations from BOTH sides of the barricade.

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), November 30, 1999.

Are you telling me, that my $10.00, advertised all over, Pepper Spray is "being improperly promoted? That I "expected" to be able to protect myself with this clever devise, when in fact it has little effect, and would allow an evil person to keep coming towards me? Talk about "Watered Down". Where are the "Watered Down Politicians?", The crowd in Seattle are a pimple, on the face of a flea. Let us know the Truth.

-- Smoke Screen (canIget@hand.com), November 30, 1999.

Seattle police are using CS and Pepper Spray canisters (some canisters have hit people). Clinton arrives at Boeing Field tonight (don't know what time), this per the local news the last 3 days.

Vandalism is due to some how have come here just for this purpose, not the daytime demonstrators, they are also joined by local gangs who are 'tagging' the retail stores. Smashed windows and looted 2 Starbucks and broke windows at Nordstroms and McDonalds, probably more. Local citzenry is irate at the vandalism, they support the right to protest and demonstrate, but defacing the city is getting their dander up.

Only some of the local stations are making the distinction between the peaceful demonstrators and the vandals this p.m. Vandals number, per the reports, about 100+, this is a very small number compared to the number of demonstrators today. Will keep you guys posted if anything 'interesting' turns up.

Oh yeah, we are under 'Civil Emergency', 300 State troupers are coming in to help Seattle PD, and tomorrow a.m. 2 units of National Guard.

This week will be very 'interesting', I sure don't need it with all the other worries........

-- Sammie (sammiex0@hotmail.com), November 30, 1999.

Pepper spray is horrible. You truly believe you are going to die!

Period!! Do not let anyone tell you different.

Ray

-- Ray Hildenbrand (Crazynick@MSN.com), November 30, 1999.

The news reported pepper spray, tear gas
and rubber bullets.

Tear gas burns the eyes and throat. A damp
cloth to breath through helps. Also calming
and breathing shallow works.

-- spider (spider0@usa.net), December 01, 1999.

FYI Clinton is due in at 1:30AM Wednesday morning (middle of the night) IF (BIG IF) he is on time as he tends to run late.

For those posting on other threads as to deterioration of the situation. The great majority of protestors were calm, pleasant and non-violent. The few that were doing the damage were local thugs and a few protestors who warned ahead of time that they were going to try to incite violence (one group I read about was from Germany) and they did try. Problems also arose when protestors chose to ignore or could not hear the order that was given to let aid/fire trucks thru at one intersection. When you have police on one side who had been up and active since 4:00am and protestors who had been up nearly as long, tempers get short - it is the nature of the beast called man, and I am sure that there were those on both sides who simply frazzled by 5 in the afternoon.

Biggest stupid move I can see is that they set the south end of the curfew area at Yesler way - guess what - delegate dinner was/is at the Museaum of Flight at Boeing Field - south of that designated area and where Clinton will arrive whenever he does. Open invite to march south and so whatever.

Fun and games tomorrow too. Expect hubby home sometime after Clinton is tucked into bed. If anything new, will try and get it on here.

-- Valkyrie (anon@please.xnet), December 01, 1999.

FYI Clinton is due in at 1:30AM Wednesday morning (middle of the night) IF (BIG IF) he is on time as he tends to run late.

For those posting on other threads as to deterioration of the situation. The great majority of protestors were calm, pleasant and non-violent. The few that were doing the damage were local thugs and a few protestors who warned ahead of time that they were going to try to incite violence (one group I read about was from Germany) and they did try. Problems also arose when protestors chose to ignore or could not hear the order that was given to let aid/fire trucks thru at one intersection. When you have police on one side who had been up and active since 4:00am and protestors who had been up nearly as long, tempers get short - it is the nature of the beast called man, and I am sure that there were those on both sides who simply frazzled by 5 in the afternoon.

Biggest stupid move I can see is that they set the south end of the curfew area at Yesler way - guess what - delegate dinner was/is at the Museaum of Flight at Boeing Field - south of that designated area and where Clinton will arrive whenever he does. Open invite to march south and do whatever.

Fun and games tomorrow too. Expect hubby home sometime after Clinton is tucked into bed. If anything new, will try and get it on here.

-- Valkyrie (anon@please.xnet), December 01, 1999.

I've caught a whiff or two in the past. Unless you are real close it isn't instantly debilitating, it is a lot like a real strong onion when you cut it except it has a wierd metallic stench. People who got a strong dose got very sick. I was too far away for that.

-- Forrest Covington (theforrest@mindspring.com), December 01, 1999.

One thing to perhaps consider (from one who has been both tear-gassed and pepper-gassed in Chicago):

Back in the "good old days" (ha!) there weren't as many contact lens wearers. Now, you've got gas-permeable, water-permeable, extended-wear, and so on and so on. It appears to me that these things would soak in any gasses that might be floating around, adding to any discomfort (which is, believe me, a MILD way of phrasing it!). Just something to consider, should you find yourself in such a situation.

And yes, I also remember wet rags and Vaseline. Great stuff, Vaseline.

-- The Whistler (I'm Here, I'm There, I'm Everywhere@so.beware), December 01, 1999.

Is a fuzzy time period for me but I remember the Wash.,DC riots of spring,1970. We were tear-gassed and pepper-gassed. The tear gas was less effective if you had a wet cloth over your face..breathed in your mouth and out your nose. The national guard and DC police opened fire with pepper gas later.Anywhere your face was wet would start burning instantly. If you had just entered the fray and your face was not wet then a dry cloth to breathe thru lessened the effects of the pepper gas. It was not a good situation to be in. I do know that after 3 days I decided it was time to move on.(Quick learner,huh?) Survived that and much more, just wish I could remember it all...*G*

-- larkspur (survivor@y2krollover.net), December 01, 1999.

I've had many experiences with gas. Training for my previous employment involved being sent into a building filled with gas. Later during training for SORT (Special Operations Response Team) we were required to experience more gas. CN seemed to be the more potent of the two but was faded out due to it's potency (could be life threatening to certain individuals with medical problems....moreso than CS). I came into contact with gas many times during my career. Sometimes experiencing as many as 3-4 riots a month.

I can truly say that gas in a confined area is quite debilitating. Your eyes burn intensly to the point you can't open them (rubbing them makes it worse), you feel as though you can't breath, mucous flows freely from your nose, you experience nausea and vomiting and moist parts of your body have a burning sensation (back of knees, armpits, groin area, etc.). Most people wind up doubled over or on the ground begging for relief. My experience is that the more you are exposed to it, the better you can tolerate it. Some individuals don't seem to be affected by it but these are usually persons with mental problems. The best antidote is fresh air and cleansing your eyes with running water. Shower as soon as possible and wash the clothes you were wearing seperately (or you may experience the burning sensation when wearing the the other clothing).

Being exposed to gas in the outdoors is a bit different. At first, when the gas is most concentrated, you have nearly the same effect as being indoors but the gas quickly disperses and the effects begin to wear off before they reach maximum effectiveness. Rioters usually began their antics again within a short period of time. About the only way to keep control is to apply a steady supply of gas until the rioters are removed or give up. We once used everything we had in the armory (well over 100 rounds of muzzle blast (not very effective), scat shot, and grenades before we gained control of an outdoor riot. The rioters (riotees?) just kept getting back up and going back at it (these were race riots and involved weapons so it was mandatory that everyone layed belly down and stayed down before we started removing them). We had just resorted to our last option (firearms and authorization for deadly force) when they finally laid it down for good. Basically, gas used outdoors can be somewhat ineffective at times.

"Pepper foggers" can be very effective in that they disperse a constant thick cloud of gas from liquid CS. The big problem with these is that they are very tempermental and can be hard to start and sometimes won't start at all. I don't believe I've ever heard a sound as ominous as a pepper fogger echoing inside a building. The sound alone has stopped riots.

We never used pepper gas but my understanding is that certain brands are very effective (Capstun?).

-- NokternL (nokternl@anywhereusa.com), December 01, 1999.