It's believable that PB was used by the .mil in an attempt to protect its soldiers. Unintended consequences?

http://msnbc.com/news/340799.asp

Chemtrails - an effort to protect citizens with who-knows-what unintended consequences? Consequences that may not even be recognized as having a straightforward cause in light of the secrecy involved?

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), November 30, 1999

Answers

Hmmmm.....maybe this 'splains my Kookiness.

Y2Kook, I-net Spook

-- Y2Kook (Y2Kook@usa.net), November 30, 1999.

How long would it take aerosol particulates to drop through the atmosphere from the height that the plane is flying?

What is the activity in the stack of wind patterns between the plane and the ground?

-- Mitchell Barnes (spanda@inreach.com), November 30, 1999.

On the subject of chemtrails, here is a good place to go: http://www.carnicom.com/contrails.htm

-- cryptkeeper- (eaten@alive.com), November 30, 1999.

PB was administered to as many as 250,000 soldiers in the belief it would protect them from the toxic effects of nerve gas. *THEREFORE* the government *IS* spraying us all via contrails with who-knows-what in order to protect us from who-knows-what. (Nope. No leap of logic required for that one huh.)

-- CD (not@here.com), November 30, 1999.

BigDog: Salutations and don't buy the crap line of "Unintended Consequences. During our little party in the Gulf, some of us attempted to nail down exactly what those funny little reddish pills were, and why the PTB were so interested in ensuring we got our 'daily-daily' much like Dad had to take back in the 'Nam. The difference was that Dad was taking salt and anti-malarials, while they refused to tell us wwhat the shit was they were passing. I didn't even get the name of the PB until a good six months after the war. (Thankfully I was a "slick willy" myself and palmed taking the damned things.) Lots of guys refused outright to take them, and much like the current Anthrax vaccine, were threatened with cashiering, ie fried in place.

My own opinion tends to run along the concept that the.mil and .gov know ,b>exactly what causes the Gulf War syndrome, and is refusing to admit it for fear of ruining any future "credibility" with the troops (as if they ever had any to begin with lol) The significance is that the .gov can say "The PB may have contributed to this issue (Gulf war symdrome), but there is no proof!" If solid connecting proof came about that the gov and mil willfully endangered the grunts without proper notification, then all of the cases against those who refuse to take the anthrax vaccine, or any other untested drug would be shot. Can you say "mutiny in the ranks?" thats just my take on it...The gov and mil will do the Cliton Legal-Speak Dodge on this, and any other matter they may be found culpable of. Especially in the area of airborn contrails.

My question is where can I get a Stinger Missle? THAT would wake 'em up eh?

-- Billy Boy (Rakkasan101st@aol.com), November 30, 1999.

How long would it take aerosol particulates to drop through the atmosphere from the height that the plane is flying? What is the activity in the stack of wind patterns between the plane and the ground?

-- Mitchell Barnes (spanda@inreach.com), November 30, 1999.

How much does it cost to have jets zig-zag around the country aimlessly? Why are they emitting a long, fat trail when planes at higher(normal) altitudes are leaving a pencil-thin trail which quickly dissipates? Why is it perfectly normal for there to be a dozen of these trails over my town one day, and ZERO for the next few days? If I hit you in the head with a week old salmon, would you smell fish?

I don't know, but it seems curious enough for me to look further.

-- MegaMe (CWHale67@aol.com), November 30, 1999.

CD -- You're not that dense but it's nice trolling. The point here is that .gov and .mil is not averse to all sorts of "testing" of "beneficial" substances on the military, not to say, civilians. It is an acknowledged fact throughout post-WWII period that the .gov has done such testing, including civilian populations. Anyway, the key point of this thread wasn't that it "proves" something about contrails but that it illustrates the vast unintended consequences that actions with a benevolent intent may have in the future -- and the imperative need to bring those actions into the light of day.

See "Billy's" post for the long-term costs to real people of the way .gov and .mil dodge responsibility for actions they have engaged in without adequate (heck, any) public debate.

Ironically and counter the fantasies of our keepers, the citizenry, by and large, is smarter and more sensible than they are. To wit, citizens recognized the value of nuclear weapons when the freeze movement would have outlawed them. At the same time, mom's and dad's expect their leaders to NOT test substances on their children without a public debate on it. THERE is a revolutionary thought (parse that one, Echelon).

Billy -- I agree with you about .gov knowledge on Gulf War. Again, the irony is that "transparency" generally leads to volunterism and a real willingness to take risks (Churchill: "I promise you blood, sweat and tears ...") and deceit erodes confidence and leads to soldiers palming their "treatments".

Good work back there and your family thanks you for your foresight, soldier, alas.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), November 30, 1999.

[ Fair Use: For Educational/Research Purposes Only ]

Brain scans suggest damage in veterans with Gulf War illness

As many as 30,000 vets have complained of maladies

By Brenda C. Coleman
ASSOCIATED PRESSNov. 30  Brain scans of soldiers who believe they suffer from Gulf War illness indicate their brains were damaged by chemical exposure during the 1991 conflict, researchers reported Tuesday.

Even in the absence of widespread acute casualties from battle, war takes its toll on human health and well-being long after the shooting or bombing stops.

 NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES REPORT

THIS IS THE first time ever we have proof of brain damage in sick Gulf War veterans, said the lead researcher, Dr. James Fleckenstein, a professor of radiology at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas.

Theres hope, now that these guys have a disease, he said. They can be believed  theyre not malingering, theyre not depressed, theyre not stressed. Theres a hope for treatment and theres hope for being able to monitor the progress of the disease.

As many as 30,000 veterans of the war have complained of mysterious maladies, including fatigue, joint pain and memory loss, that they say are related to their service in the Gulf.

A presidential panel looking into Gulf War illnesses said in August that it cant pinpoint causes of the ailments and recommended further study into whether there are potential genetic reasons.

In the new study, magnetic resonance spectroscopy, which uses radio waves to measure body chemistry, found that veterans who believe they have the illness have up to 25 percent lower levels of a certain brain chemical than healthy Gulf War veterans.

Lower-than-normal levels of the chemical, N-acetyl-aspartate, in the brain stem and basal ganglia suggest a loss of neurons in those areas, said the researchers, who presented their findings at the 85th annual meeting of the Radiological Society of North America.

The brain stem controls some of the bodys reflexes. The basal ganglia are switching stations for nerve impulses controlling movement, memory and emotion. The basal ganglia, for example, are where the malfunctioning occurs that causes Parkinsons disease.

Fleckenstein said treatments are being explored by his colleague, Dr. Robert Haley, an associate professor of internal medicine and chief of epidemiology at UT Southwestern.

Haley helped define Gulf War syndromes and identify toxic exposures associated with the likelihood of having them. He also revealed enzyme abnormalities that may be linked to the disease.

Fleckenstein said brain scans of 22 sick veterans revealed levels of N-acetyl-aspartate 10 percent to 25 percent lower than those in 18 healthy veterans. The finding held up in an additional six sick Gulf War veterans drawn from a different part of the military.

The study was blinded, meaning radiologists interpreting the results did not know which patients complained of symptoms and which were healthy.

GENETIC VULNERABILITY

Researchers believe soldiers who became ill were those who had a genetic vulnerability to certain chemicals used in the war, including nerve gas, the insecticide DEET, pet flea collars some wore to repel pests and the drug pyridostigmine bromide. PB was administered to as many as 250,000 soldiers in the belief it would protect them from the toxic effects of nerve gas.

Last month, the Pentagon raised the possibility for the first time of a connection between Gulf War illness and PB. It said more scientific study is needed before it can confirm or rule out a connection.

Lt. Col. Dian Lawhon, a spokeswoman for the Department of Defenses office for Gulf War illnesses, which helped fund Fleckensteins study, said her office could not comment on the findings until it sees a complete report. Only an abstract was available.

This is part of our continuing effort to find out what might be making Gulf War veterans sick, she said. We havent seen anything that would say that they found the smoking gun, though.

The brain scan study was reported on the same day as the release of a series of Pentagon-ordered reports that said focusing on the danger of traditional weapons could mask less-obvious, long-term hazards to troops.

Even in the absence of widespread acute casualties from battle, war takes its toll on human health and well-being long after the shooting or bombing stops, said one of the reports prepared by the National Academy of Sciences Institute of Medicine and the National Research Council.

The reports offered some criticism of past Pentagon strategies for protecting troops, citing a natural tendency to focus attention on known hazardous agents and saying that too much attention on them may result in other hazards being overlooked.
-------------------------------------------------

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), November 30, 1999.

CD -- You're not that dense but it's nice trolling. The point here is that .gov and .mil is not averse to all sorts of "testing" of "beneficial" substances on the military, not to say, civilians.

Oh. Sorry BigDog. I guess I was thrown off track by your sentence; " Chemtrails - an effort to protect citizens with who-knows-what unintended consequences?"

-- CD (not@here.com), November 30, 1999.

Also remember that the .gov tested NUKES and BIO-WEAPONS on it's own people for the last 40 years! The gov bombed out west, NEAR POPULATED AREAS! PEOPLE SAW THEM AND DIED YEARS LATER OF CANCER! remember that! Our .gov murdered our own people(sheeple?) in the name of freedom; and is STILL DOING IT!!!!!!!!!!

-- Crono (Crono@timesend.com), November 30, 1999.

CD -- have you ever wondered why question marks (?) are placed at the end of sentences? Have you ever considered that question marks (?) do not represent conclusions but queries? Have you noticed that your use of the word "therefore" implies I was drawing conclusions rather than asking questions? And am I aware that trying to reason with you is like trying to address a piece of soggy toast?

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), November 30, 1999.

Billy Boy and others: My husband had to take those red pills in Desert Storm.....what were they? He REALLY didn't like being told to take something when he didn't know what it was and wasn't being told.

-- preparing (preparing@home.com), November 30, 1999.

A & L,

Do you have an URL for that report on GWS? I'm interested because of its relationship with some similar syndromes.

-- Evelyn (equus@barn.now), November 30, 1999.

It's called "SARCASM" BigDog. Didn't say I was proud of it or that it contributes to constructive debate. For some reason these threads which espouse bizarre theories bring that out in me. I'll try to bite my tongue "next time".

-- CD (not@here.com), November 30, 1999.

Evelyn, it's the original addy Big Dog gave in first post:

http://msnbc.com/news/340799.a sp

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), November 30, 1999.

CD -- sarcasm! I never touch the stuff .... thanks.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), November 30, 1999.

When did the chemtrails begin? How long ago? Sometimes looking back, might give clues to why the chemtrails are being used now.What was happening before these were seen? Was there a small outbrake of anything,if left untreated,that could become epidemic(SP?)? Just wondering,not saying this is what happened.

-- Maggie (song bird@iwon.com), November 30, 1999.

I've been reading these threads with interest, although I haven't seen any such C-trails around these parts. In answer to Maggie's question of what was happening that "they" may have been trying to control...the thought occurred to me the other day about spraying for insect control. What was the deal I think it was this past summer that had to do with mosquitos...was that in NY State? That was something fairly major wasn't it?

beej

-- beej (beej@ppbbs.com), November 30, 1999.

beej,that's what started me wondering,because NY sprayed to stop the spread of West Nile Fever (or a variation of it) with heavy duty chemicals. The chemtrails were seen before the reported problem in NY.I know of one women that died of encephelitis about 16 years ago in California.

I really would like to know when the chemtrails started,so as to see what if anything was going on before that time.

-- Maggie (song bird@iwon.com), November 30, 1999.

For a documented explanation of gulf war syndrome, refer to Cpt. Joyce Riley, RN and her research at gulfwarvets.com or listen to several interviews with Rense and Bell here:

http://www.broadcast.com/shows/endoftheline/9806/end0601.ram

http://ww2.broadcast.com/artbell/abell/9904/ab0415.ram

http://www.broadcast.com/shows/endoftheline/9905/end0524.ram

http://ww2.broadcast.com/artbell/abell/9905/ab0531.ram

http://www.broadcast.com/shows/endoftheline/9908/end0817.ram

http://ww2.broadcast.com/artbell/abell/9909/ab0902.ram

http://www.broadcast.com/shows/endoftheline/9911/end1103.ram

-- OR (orwelliator@biosys.net), December 01, 1999.