Hi all... I have some very basic questions about guns for home defense purposes. I have never even considered getting a gun before, but my wife is 6 months pregnant. I also feel that since I believe the potential fallout from Y2K is bad enough that I have prepped, it follows logically that I must believe that I at least MAY have to protect what I have. I think I have decided to get a 12 guage shotgun, as I have little to no gun experience, and think it would likely be my best choice. My primary question is what kind to get? What are the best manufacturers? Should I be thinking of a pump action, or a sort of cock and load type thing? How many rounds do various types hold? Additionally, does anyone have advice on what type of ammunition to buy, and any maintenance supplies for cleaning etc. The last question is if anyone knows what sort of paperwork I have to go through to be legal in Massachusetts? I would like to keep the whole thing as cost effective as possible (ie cheap bang for the buck), and I definately plan on getting down to the local outdoor shooting range (that is if they allow shotguns there). Any help would be much appreciated, and please don't assume ANYTHING is too rudimentary to explain, as I am really clueless about guns. I'm not giving my real email address because, frankly, I'm paranoid about letting anyone know anything about me. Thanks everybody!

-- Gunter (scared@ofguns.com), November 28, 1999

Answers

A 12 gauge pump is a good choice, it'll mess someone up good at close range and it gets one's attention. Most will hold 5 rounds. Pump is a little more dependable than an auto. As for makes, there are a lot of good ones. Why not call a local gun shop for answers to your other questions.

-- (scatter@gun.com), November 28, 1999.

Gunter, if you open 'uncategorized' or 'survivalist' archives on this forum, then from your browser choose 'find (on this page' and type in 'gun', you will see that there are at least 50 previous threads dealing with essentially the exact question you have asked ("newbie requests gun advice" type of thing).

The best gun for any situation is the one you have in your hand.

-- Count Vronsky (vronsky@anna.lit), November 28, 1999.

Others here can give you specific advice on makes and models. I'll restrict my comments to other issues.

First and most important, you absolutely must get both training and practice. Find some people who are experts and spend some time with them. Please avoid the 'ye-haw-shoot-em-up' types as they have very little to offer. Serious target shooters are a much better bet. The time to learn 'best practices' (e.g. keeping your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot, always keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, not depending upon the mechanical safety, etc, etc, etc.) is not after you've accidently shot someone very close to you.

Second, you absolutely must understand the laws in your state with respect to the use of deadly force by civilians. For example, in the state in which I live (Iowa), it is never permissible to use deadly force to protect personal property. In Iowa, you may not employ deadly force simply because someone broke into your house. Whether or not you agree with these laws is totally irrelevant - unless there is a total meltdown, which I seriously doubt, you will be held responsible for obeying them. There are other very specific criteria here that must be met when deadly force is used. Ignore the rules and your child may have to grow up without a father. Think long and hard about this. In addition, even if you comply with all the rules and don't go to jail, in many cases you can still be sued.

Last, never substitute a firearm for clear thinking lest you make an irreversible mistake.

If you are not willing to commit to to at least these things, you and your family will be far safer without a firearm. Do not let your fear become the source of a personal disaster.

-- Arnie Rimmer (Arnie_Rimmer@usa.net), November 28, 1999.

Help in buying shotgun

-- same questions (gun@in.box), November 28, 1999.

Gunter,

You must get a Firearms Identifications Card application from your local police department. The chief of police is the issuing authority.

However, last year the Mass. State legislature passed a new gun registration law and "they" are real backed-up.

It took me 7 months to get my permit renewed, although I have heard that the average wait is 3 to 4 months. Call/visit your local police department but I doubt that you will get a permit in 5 weeks.

Good Luck.

-- Cant Say (Chicken@NoWay.Com), November 28, 1999.

K-mart sells the mossberg 500 6 shot 12 guage shot gun for around $150 bucks.To my way of thinking the mossberg is a very good first gun as the loose tolerances and milspec standards make it reliable (milspec says they must be able to fire 10,000 "00" 3inch buckshot rounds without jamming)and very easy to field strip.For amunition,the Federal amunition company makes very excellent low recoil #4 self- defence buckshot rounds,very good for minimizing over penetration issues.Normal buckshot costs less.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), November 28, 1999.

My dear Mr. Gunter

In a effort to reply to your question. The 12 ga. shot gun is the first choice for home defence and is excellent for wild game. The Mossburg 500 pump is b far the mos reasnable in price, and is dpendable (does not malfunction very often-I have used mine for 30 years and have never had a shell jam up when I loaded or ejected a spent shell).

This shot gun has a little wooden dowel in it that limits the shell cap. to three shells (one in the chamber). It takes about 15 seconds to remove this dowel and then you have a 5 shell cap. (with one in the chamber). Now as for types or shot shells... go with #4bird shot for one...Tis will take small game, ducks, rabbits etc. And will totally wipe out an intruder at close range (in a house) but will not go through bothe sides of a normal house wall(some one you love might be on the other side. And I would deffiately include 50 rounds of #4 buck shot for those loner, out of the house needs.

#4 buck shot has more pellets than 00 buck shot, will shoot further, and is what the feds use now also.(Btw) be sure you ask for the 2 1/2 inch maginums in the buck shot and bird shot loads.) And here is the reason wh..I have the 3 inch magium chamberedMoss burg...But when I shoot 3" loads, the shot shell is actually a little loonger n lenth when the front opens up to let the shot load leave the shell. hense! I have had difficulty in ejecting the spent sht shell...No such problem with 2 1/2 inch mag. rounds.

In closing, I would like to make two things clear; the first! There is no more chilling sound then a shot gun's trombing sound when you jack in a round. And the 12 ga. shot gun; firing buck shot will put more lead in the air than a sub machine gun firing on full auto will. In the same amount of firing time.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Shakey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

-- Shakey (in_a_bunker@forty.feet), November 28, 1999.

The first rule of gunfighting is to have a gun.I would travel to a differant state if I needed to insure I had the means to protect my family........"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property . . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them." Thomas Paine, Thoughts on Defensive War (1775). .........."False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crime."--Thomas Jefferson

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), November 28, 1999.

Ditto on the Mossberg Mod. 500. Easily fitted with accessories and a durable piece. Make sure that whatever you do, you understand the mechanics of such and get some practice. Also, join the NRA (plug). Thanks !

-- Rob (maxovrdrv51@hotmail.com), November 28, 1999.

A few thoughts on the gun question. First, I also like the Mossberg 500...have used one for years and never had a problem of any kind. They are reliable, made in America and fairly priced.

About the legal side of buying a gun...many states now require a load of legal stuff before you can buy a gun. Some combination of ID cards, permits, training courses etc. For example, in my state you can no longer just walk into a gun store, put down your money, sign the Form 4473 and walk out with your weapon of choice. Please check with your local authorities. If you need permits or training just to make a purchase, you are out of time.

I always liked a line from John Wayne..."A man should know how to handle a gun and use it with discretion." You had better be damn sure of the situation before pulling the trigger. THINK...use DISCRETION!

-- Irving (irvingf@myremarq.com), November 28, 1999.

Good choice on the Shotgun. No better home defense weapon for a newbie. Ditto on training. Get it, go to the woods or a range and shoot the thing a lot. Practice loading it.

I recommend #1 buck as it has been shown to provide optimal crush and wounding in ballistics tests. Believe it or not theres a site that has such data.

As far as overpenetration, you should assume that your loved ones are following emergency procedures and are safely behind you somewhere in your house. My guess is if lights are out you will have already assumed a pretty defensive lifestyle by that time. Good luck.

PS go to www.gunsamerica.com

they have plenty of pictures of shotguns and features and prices as well so that you can get a good range.

-- Gordon (g_gecko_69@hotmail.com), November 28, 1999.

"In closing, I would like to make two things clear; the first! There is no more chilling sound then a shot gun's trombing sound when you jack in a round. And the 12 ga. shot gun; firing buck shot will put more lead in the air than a sub machine gun firing on full auto will. In the same amount of firing time. ~Shakey~~"

Agreed wholeheartedly. Also, you had better get a midwife lined up for your wife, just in case...... I like the Remington 870 with the short barrel for home defense. It's what the cops used for a long time, and called it a "riot gun". I have both long and short barrels to increase what I can use it for. I like it very much for it's varied utility, though it's not something I really *enjoy* shooting. Each time I fire it, it's like someone kicking me in the shoulder. Have to get a good recoil pad for it.

Even so, I expect to have a pretty nice defense from this shotgun. Only truly stupid people would approach a petite woman with an 870 who is prepared to use it to defend herself and hers.

-- (ms.noname@nono.not), November 28, 1999.

Site didn't pick up cancel italics command....again. [ Fixes R us and you wouldn't BELIEVE where we had to put the /i ]

-- Boy Wonder (robin@the.cave), November 28, 1999.

Gunter, first and foremost, BOTH you and the Mrs. sholud go to a range and learn SAFETY as well as TRAIN together. For defending your home a good 12-g shotgun would do nicely, BUT be sure she can control the weapon.

-- Mr. Mike (mikeabn@aol.com), November 28, 1999.

Looks like you'll need to take a little road trip to a state with less draconion anti-gun laws.Many non-facist states will let you walk out the same with a long gun.Don't let bureaucrat and political misleaders stop you from having the means to protect your wife and baby!!

-- apokoliptik (apokoliptik@yahoo.com), November 28, 1999.

Hello, Gunter. You've asked some thoughtful questions. If you're like me and many other self-defense shotgun owners, chances are that you won't have enough time or money to practice with your new shotgun to the degree that your manipulation of the controls will be nearly automatic. That being the case, you should seek a weapon that will not confuse you when the adrenalin is flowing and your fine-motor skills are AWOL.

For that, I recommend one of the Mossberg 500 or 590 series special-purpose shotguns. See this URL: http://mossberg.com/pcatalog/Specpurp.htm

My reason? Some shotguns place the safety athwartships, usually in the vicinity of the trigger guard; you have to move it left or right to use it...but it can be very difficult to remember if it's on "safe" or not, and know which way to move it to get ready to fire. For a relatively unpracticed shooter, the resulting delay can be fatal in a deadly-force confrontation...or after the confrontation has ended.

You don't have that problem with the Mossberg special-purpose shotguns, because the safety is mounted on the grip tang, right in reach of your thumb. It moves fore-and-aft. To make the gun ready to fire, you simply push the safety button forward, in the same direction as the shot charge will leave the barrel...right toward your target. Simple, no? Very easy to deal with, no potential confusion or delay.

I agree with the other comments made about Mossbergs in the posts above. Note that some of the Mossberg special-purpose shotguns hold either 8 or 9 rounds, which can be a real comfort when you need them right now.

Good luck with your preps; glad to see you facing up to the fact that you'll need something more convincing than good intentions and debating skills if/when the bad guys come to visit.

-- Norm Harrold (nharrold@tymewyse.com), November 28, 1999.

How to buy a gun if you live in the People's Republic of Massachusetts:

"move" to Vermont or New Hampshire

-- who, me ? (live.free@or.die), November 28, 1999.

Mr. Gunter:

Before long, that baby of yours will be runnin' and bouncin' around, and gettin' into all kinds of mischief!!! Hopefully your gun will only be needed for hunting. If any unscrupulous persons invade your home, then the first thing they might do is grab your baby for a shield. I would not recommend a shot gun because of the "splatter pattern". Even if the invader does not grab your baby, the child could easily get in the way.

If you get extra ammo for practicing, then you don't need a splatter pattern to hit your target. Plus you will have more control over exactly where that bullet goes. You won't have to guess where the ump-tee-ump pellets are gonna hit. I don't have a gun, so you can take my advice with a grain of salt. But I did shoot a bit as a kid with Dad at the dump, and have fired shot guns as well as a rifle. I know with my 2 dogs in my home that there is no way I would risk discharging a shotgun in my home.

-- Hokie (nn@home.com), November 28, 1999.

I got a Mossberg Maverick...they sell for around $200, and they are GREAT guns. You might consider a pistol as well, as if you ever want to go anywhere in y2k land, you don't want to have to carry around a shotgun. If you want a cheap, GOOD gun, go with the Kel Tek 9mm. For the price it can't be beat, and it's incredibly compact yet holds 10 rounds + 1 in the chamber. Good luck

-Rational Doomer

-- Rational Doomer (doomer@big.time), November 28, 1999.

All good advice for you, all things considered. I do not consider the 12ga to the best choice for a new gun owner. Get a semi-auto shotgun if you must have a shotgun, otherwise, a semi-auto rifle is a better choice.

If you don't practice constantly with the pump shotgun, during a firefight, you may encounter a problem that even trained cops run into: shortstroking the gun. With the adrenaline pumping, and your mind preoocupied, you have a good chance of not pumping the forend fully, or not pumping it enough to get the round into the chamber. Either is bad news and can get you killed.

With the auto shotgun, this possibility is minimized. A fair number of SWAT types use semi-auto shotguns in 20ga as entry guns. I'd use the 12ga if I HAD to have a shotgun.

Look into getting a SKS, or a Mini-14 if you can get one. This keeps the cost down. If cost is not an issue, get a pre-ban CAR-15...

Since you are in MA state, I doubt that you will be allowed to buy any of these guns, or in time to make a difference, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to be able to protect yourself and family.

Don't interpret that to mean go and get a gun illgally, 'cause I don't want to get into trouble advising that. I simply meant that you shouldn't let some piddly bureacrats keep you from getting what you need.

-- Bill (billclo@msgbox.com), November 28, 1999.

Gunter I like the Mossberg M590A1 with Ghost Ring sights. It will run you a little more than the 500 models but what is the price of your family's safety worth? Also I have a Glock 40 cal as a backup. Sorry you live in a state were you can't just buy a gun and walk out with it after a background check. The M590A1 holds 9 rounds and the Ghost Ring sights are really great for a quick target acquisition. It seems that you are trying to either save money or don't have money to spend. I started my firearms preps about two years ago and have thousands of rounds of ammo and a Remington Model 700 Sendero 300 Win Mag that I could take someone out with at over 500 yards easily with the scope I have and practice I put in. You would be a sitting duck if you run up on someone who is waiting for you 200 yards away with a 308 hunting rifle. Preps is not only about food and water its also about protection and keeping what you have. A shotgun though if you are financially strapped for cash would be the best bet. A Mossberg Model 500 pump using 00 or in my case 000 buck would serve you well enough. good luck with the new baby.

-- ~***~ (~***~@earth.ebe), November 28, 1999.

Whatever you decide to buy, DO IT SOON.

I visited my local firearms establishment and was astounded by what I saw. The guy is a Class III dealer, usually with a "neat display" full-auto gun as an attention getter,lots of shotguns (200 or more), hunting rifles and pistols and plenty of ammo. But that was before the last two months.

This weekend it looked like his place had been looted, it was almost empty. His sales have been booming, while getting restocked is near impossible. From two hundred shotguns to barely two dozen and ABSOLUTELY NO 12Ga, #4 shot loads. But some 12Ga deer loads were left.

He said most of the purchasers of all those shotguns (mostly Mossbergs) were not hunters. They were Y2K concerned homeowners excercising their Second Amendment rights, most for the first time in their lives. "They've been a steady flow out the door since Labor Day".

And along with all the shotguns and self-defense ammo, all his "assault rifles" and appropriate ammo, and most of the pistols up through the mid-range prices are sold. The largest selection of guns were hunting rifles and those are down from normal numbers and only the "unpopular" calibers or expensive models are left.

Of his Class III items, including the old WWI water-cooled Vickers, they're all gone. And all the belted ammo for those ammo eaters is gone, too. Even all the tracers a certain ol' weasel wanted some of for his big gun.

If you can you really need to get hold of your local "For Sale By Owner" type of magazine. Since you're in Mass you might want to try and get an out-of-state one. In most states, person-to-person sales still don't require registration or background checks.

If Mass does, you might just have to consider an across-the-border purchase. It may be illegal but in the face of possible violence against your family and yourself, what is a paperwork transgression? And if you've got family or freinds across the border you might be able to purchase the gun in their state and store it there, too.

Whatever the method, good luck and may you never have to use your firearm in anger.

WW

-- Wildweasel (vtmldm@epix.net), November 28, 1999.

[ BROKEN RECORD/REPEAT WARNING: The regulars have heard this from me for a LOT of times. Skip on to the next answer. Chuck]

NOW that the italics have been fixed, I will run my usual first time gun buyer mantra, as handed to me by my best friend 20+ years ago as I was buying MY first "Self Protection" piece.

Bill shot All Army for a couple of years, Airborne qualified most of the whole 9 yards. He looked at me and my bride (she of the matched pair of Camp Perry Pistols on the mantle) and asked WHY we wanted to buy a gun. This was IN the GUN SHOPP and was a minor embarrassment, as he KNEW about the then current problems (thefts, contract out on wife, etc.). I said something about self protection, and he started to walk out of the shop. He stopped and turned around and said (and I quote, because I'll NEVER forget it) "If you want to buy a gun for protection you are a fool and I'm an even bigger fool for almost helping you. If you want to buy a gun to KILL someONE, then we can continue."

His point is simple. SHOWING a gun will NOT PROTECT YOU FROM ANYTHING OR ANYONE. THE ONLY REASON TO OWN A GUN IS TO KILL. PERIOD. END OF SUBJECT.

(Target shooting as a hobby is truly TRAINING to hit a TARGET to KILL the TARGET. )

SO, unless you have made the determination that you will kill someone/something then you should NOT have a gun. DO THE MENTAL stuff FIRST, rather than when the decision is breathing down your neck, your adrenaline is running, your pulse is about 180 and you are breathing at about 45 - 60.

Chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), November 29, 1999.

Let me synopsise:

A 5 shell pump shotgun is an excellent choice for 24/7 protection against the zombies that will rise from the sewers to devour us. Aim for the head! For protection against a rampaging lynch mob or plagues of scorpion tailed locusts, try a flamethrower. A .50 machine gun is necessary for dealing with the light AFV's of the inevitable rogue military units, or for the larger of the 7 headed, 10 horned beasts that will emerge from the oceans. Always keep an IMI Desert Eagle to hand for last-ditch defence, and remember to save the last round for yourself.

Oooh, nice troll. ;)

-- Colin MacDonald (roborogerborg@yahoo.com), November 29, 1999.

A shotgun is great for VERY close range, however ......... if I could own only one long run it would be a rifle. Rifles are effective from very close to a considerable distance. Please consider the SKS 762x39. My Garand 3006 is a bit much for most ladies. My wife (age 65 120 lbs) and her sister (age 68 and 135 lbs) both shoot the SKS quite well. They each have their own SKS. They make one-shot kills on water-filled milk jugs at 50 yards. That'll keep the bad guys off the front porch. I feel that the SKS 762x30 is particularly suitable for ladies and teens. It has virtually no recoil, is equal in power to the 30-30 , is semi-auto and holds ten shots. SKS loads from a stripper clip. To load from a stripper clip -- put the safety ON --pull the bolt handle back to lock the bolt open. --put end of stripper clip in clip slot in bolt --place your thumb well back on the top cartridge in the stripper clip so that your thumb rides along the stripper clip as you press the cartridges down into the magazine. --if you are ready to shoot, pull the bolt handle back with right hand knuckles down and release the bolt handle. That will load a cartridge into the chamber. When you push the safety OFF you can fire the rifle. --if you DO NOT wish to shoot ......grasp bolt operating handle with right hand knuckles down, pull back slightly and hold. With your left thumb press and hold the cartridges down in the magazine, and let the bolt SLOWLY ride forward over the top cartridge (move your left hand) and let the bolt close on an empty chamber. --carry the rifle with empty chamber.. when you are ready to shoot , pull bolt handle to the rear with right hand knuckles down and let it slam forward chambering a round, then push safety to OFF and you may fire. Why pull the bolt handle back with right hand knuckles down??? IF the rifle fires when teh bolt closes on around in the chamber ( called a "slam fire) and your knuckles are UP, the bolt handle will relocate your right thumb some four inches to the rear of where it grew on your hand. If you have a slam fire with knuckles down the bolt handle will not catch your thumb. A slam fire is a rare occurence. Once is one time too many if it breaks your thumb.

ALSO affix six inches of bead chain to one end of a stout nylon cord twice as long as the barrel of your rifle. At the other end tie a loop (bowline). Eight inches in from the loop on the end tie another loop (bowline). When you wish to clean the rifle, place a patch in the inner of the two loops. Hold rifle muzzle down, drop bead chain into chamber. It will pull the thong down through the barrel. If the patch is too large and gets caught, grasp the end loop and pull the patch out backwards. It is not well to have the thong break leaving a patch in the bore of your rifle.. I usually clean my rifles with carburetor cleaner. I hold them muzzle down, squirt carb cleaner into chamber and bore and clean with a thong as described.

Stupid gun laws in Mass? Go out of state. Buy from an individual. Pay cash. Sign nothing.

-- Vlad (Strelok60@yahoo.com), November 29, 1999.

Gunter, one caution on maintenence:

Never use WD-40 or similar penetrating-type lubricants on the inside of your firearm.

Reason being, self-defense firearms are kept loaded at all times and the ammo can be exposed to oil inside the gun; WD-40 type lubricants are able to seep past the primer in the base of the cartridge and can deactive it, resulting in a dud.

If you have to purchase a dirty used firearm, use automotive brake cleaner to remove the crud. Then relubricate sparingly with a good gun oil and wipe off all excess. A thin film is all you need.

Good luck!

-- Cherokee (mcdixon@konnections.com), November 29, 1999.

"SHOWING a gun will NOT PROTECT YOU FROM ANYTHING OR ANYONE. THE ONLY REASON TO OWN A GUN IS TO KILL. PERIOD. END OF SUBJECT."

End of subject?

A few tidbits:

http://www.cairns.net.au/~sharefin/LocationRisks.htm

"During rioting in Miami a few years ago, two men set up lawn chairs at the entrance of their trailer park, and sat there with .22 calibre rifles clutched in their hands (not very powerful weapons, actually). All night long looters came running by ready to enter the park. One glance at the sentries, however, and the looters kept running to find easier prey elsewhere. Not a shot was fired and no damage was done to those trailer homes. A show of force, rather than the use of force, was effective protection."

http://members.aol.com/keninga/looting.htm

"During Hurricane Hugo, prepared neighborhoods barricaded their block. Home watch guards worked in shifts during the day and night. This system was very effective. Active involvement with neighbors now will aid in future group preparedness actions. One store owner I met was the only retailer in his shopping center that was not looted. His solution was a generator for light, a cooler for food and drink, a comfortable chair located in his doorway while on guard and a shotgun. He never had to even point it -- all looters gave him full berth while seeking easier spoils."

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000aPF

"Looters WILL pass up homes and businesses with armed owners protecting them... Guns don't have to be fired in order to be effective... Unless the person is on drugs and out of their mind, a 12 gauge shotgun pointed in their direction will make them think twice about looting your home. Looters are cowards, who take advatage of bad situations. Burglers are the same: they look for easy targets. That is why they skip homes with large dogs, alarm systems, well lit homes, etc."

-- alan (foo@bar.com), November 29, 1999.

no responses....... hmmmmm..........

-- alan (foo@bar.com), November 29, 1999.

(Target shooting as a hobby is truly TRAINING to hit a TARGET to KILL the TARGET. )

Im calling bullshit on this. It is perfectly reasonable for someone to take up shooting as a hobby, without the need to learn to kill someone, or even having the intention to kill someone. I'm affraid you are only sharing one mans point of view here.

-- C. Hill (pinionsmachine@hotmail.com), November 29, 1999.

"Looters WILL pass up homes and businesses with armed owners protecting them... Guns don't have to be fired in order to be effective... Unless the person is on drugs and out of their mind, a 12 gauge shotgun pointed in their direction will make them think twice about looting your home. Looters are cowards, who take advatage of bad situations. Burglers are the same: they look for easy targets. That is why they skip homes with large dogs, alarm systems, well lit homes, etc."

you the man!

also...magnesium shells will make anyone drop a load in their pants..

-- C. Hill (pinionsmachine@hotmail.com), November 29, 1999.