A conversation on baptism I found in a religious cartoon. It has provoked some new thinking in me, so I thought I would share it. Comments from the peanut gallery?

Student: Brother Context, have you read my paper on baptism yet?

Brother Context: Yes. I'm glad you include the Spirit, but it seems you still have a lot of The True Church thinking about the purpose of water baptism.

S: huh?

BC: If we started with the Gentile ministry instead of the Jewish, we would begin in Acts 10 and Acts 10:43 would be our theme instead of Acts 2:38. The same apostle speaks in both places by the same Holy Spirit. Put these two passages side by side and the conclusion is inescapable -- God is not "hung up" on order of events. Both scenarios finally contain the same elements.

S: Are you saying someone can be saved by faith before being baptized?

BC: "By faith" is *how* we're saved, not *when* The main elements of saving faith are a firm conviction, a personal surrender to Jesus (John 1:12) and action inspired by that surrender (2 Corinthians 5:7, Philippians 2:12-13).

S: So *when* does God save us?

BC: The "when" question need never arise as long as we simply proclaim the good news, promise salvation to those who surrender themselves to Jesus and baptize believers as they come to faith. "When" only becomes an issue when we take our eyes off what God has done in Christ to focus on ourselves and what we are doing. Whoever truly trusts Jesus will obey Him. That certainly includes being baptized in Jesus' name as a public, visible declaration of the heart-faith that only God can see (Mark 16:15-16, Colossians 2:12). And those who trust and obey Jesus to the end will be saved (Matthew 24:12-13).

Should mention something about copyright 1999 by Bob West.

-- Anonymous, November 24, 1999

Answers

Sorry, that my friends is nothing but faith only. YOu are saved the moment you say you believe in Jesus and accept Him into your heart.

The when that the cartoon was talking about is decernable and it is at the time of being immersed into Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. That is when you meet the blood of Christ. The funny thing about people who want to take out immersion is that they refuse to remove any of the other parts of the plan to save manking by God. When are we raised up the new creature that II Cor. 5:17 speaks of? When are we united with His death, burial and resurrection that Romans 6:1-12 speaks of? At the time of our immersion. Pure and simple.

It provokes thoughts of anger in me because it is so simple and yet many just don't get it. Not because they cannot, but because they have been dooped into believing a lie, or because it does not fit their preconceived idea of how God will save them.

-- Anonymous, November 24, 1999

Yep, its the same old problem, People just have not been taught the purpose of Faith and the Purpose of Baptism. People still just think of baptism as immersion. But the over-riding thought forgotten is that the word Baptism, means to "immerse for a purpose." The purpose you just pointed out Roy, good for you. You cannot scripturally Faith into Christ, Repent into Christ, But you can be immersed into Christ for the purpose Scripture States. It is not just a symbol, as some maintain. Praise God He never used the word "symbol" about either Baptism nor communion.

-- Anonymous, November 25, 1999

Roy,

I find it fascinating that you got "faith only" out of that. The whole thing avoided the question of "when", only on the "how", yet you turned it into saying the "when" comes upon merely believing. The "how" is clearly by "faith", though I would like to go on to say "faith expressing itself through love", see Galatians 5:6 and James chapter 2. Maybe the whole thing is semantics -- I can't tell you how often I have debated with someone (there is one person in particular) on an issue, only to find out it turned on definitions. Once we agreed on definitions, we actually agreed.

I must say I was tempted to alter Brother Context's final comment, but decided instead to quote Bob West directly. Baptism is not merely a declaration of faith; I would agree with you there. But I would basically agree with West on the main elements being conviction, surrender, and action inspired by that surrender, though expressing it in my own words, I would say "action inspired and required by that surrender". Baptism is not merely action inspired, but action required. Without it, we have not surrendered.

I feel that all that I said and what is in response to doesn't clearly make sense to what I believe on the issue. Let me start from scratch a bit here.

I do agree that the baptism is required, and that it is immersion into water that we are discussing here. But I am saddened to see people considered themselves followers of Jesus merely because they were baptized. Baptism has become, by the way it gets emphasized and for fear that we accidently "endorse" another view, *THE* way of salvation.

Lets look at the NT scriptures, ignoring letters and books written to the faithful disciples at a location or region for the moment so as to maintain context. That leaves the gospels and Acts. Certainly, the rest of the new testament will not contradict or teach differntly, its just that their originally intended readers come with a certain knowledge and we want to discern what that knowledge might have been. What are the instructions to be saved? Interestingly, no one place seems to list everything that is required.

This list is not meant to be all inclusive: Jesus' example by being baptized Himself Matt 3:13-17 et al. Jesus says as He submits to it: "it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness". Matthew 11:28-30 et al: a mere call to come to Jesus. Matthew 13 parable of the sower: those who are fruitful are saved. We see two catagories of people who receive the seed (Jesus) but those without root and those who let life's worries (the thorns) chock their faith are unfruitful. Matt 13 parable of the hidden treasure and the pearl: the principles in the story sold everything to have the treasure and the pearl -- implying that to receive the treasures of heaven we must give it all up --> full submission. Matt 18:21-35 the parable of the unmerciful servant: a story illustrating that unless we forgive others, we ourselves won't be forgiven Matt 19:16-30 the rich young man: another tale promising eternal life to those who give it all up Matt 25:14-30 parable of the talents: an illustration showing that the unfruitful will be thrown in the darkness (v30) Matt 25:31-46 judgement day: those who demonstrate love for their neighbors in need are saved, the rest go to eternal punishment Matt 28:18-20 the Great Commission: the disciples are to baptize those they make disciples of, or as a step of making them disciples, depending on how you read it. In the context of all NT scriptures, this looks to be the latter. Certainly this implies that disciples are to submit to baptism, likely even before they can properly wear the title disciple. Mark 6:6-12 the sending of the 12 with instructions to teach people to repent. Since repent means to "change", more precisely "to turn your course (life direction in this context)". Assumedly, this is turning your life to following God Mark 8:34-38 deny yourself and follow Christ: "whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and the gospel will save it." Another surrender to Jesus passage. Mark 12:28-34 the Great Commandment: a teacher of the law responds to Jesus citing the two greatest commandments in response to a question by saying "well said teacher ... to love God ... and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices" and Jesus says "you are not far from the kingdom". This implies to me that a necessary step (though not enough) is to know that we must love. Mark 16:15-16 another rendering of the Great Commission. Luke 5:1-11 the disciples leave everything behind to follow Jesus. Luke 14:25-34 give it all up to be a disciple John 1:12 those who receive him and believe on [the name of Christ] have the right to become children of God -- a first step is to believe Jesus. Note that this verse does not say receiving and believing make us children. John 3:1-21 we must start over (be born again). John 6:54 strange one "whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life" John 15:1-17 seems to indicate that we must remain in Christ and his words remain in us -- there is a promise that if we do, we will be fruitful, but that unfruitful branches will be thrown away.

So, in the gospels, there is actually little emphasis on baptism. Surrender, repentance, remaining in Christ, and loving God and neighbors are mentioned as necessary for eternal life, while fruitfulness is an indication that we are "on the right course".

I was going to make the case for baptism a bit by going through Acts, but if you aren't familiar with all the instances of conversion always including baptism, then Acts is there for you to check out that claim. I would rather focus on what gets neglected: that Jesus himself put a huge emphasis on surrender and commitment. But in many congregations and for many preachers it's baptism, baptism, baptism. I would claim (and I am aware of much anecdotal evidence, witnessing much of it myself) that if we teach the word, placing an emphasis as Jesus did on surrender and commitment, then the disciples that we produce almost always become fruitful, and they are baptized anyway. They do great things, but themselves credit grace for their salvation.

But when we emphasize baptism, it is common that the result is "Christians" who stop right there. They have got the *major* thing down, now you want something else? If they do more, it is on the basis of completing the ever-growing "checklist" . The result is a leaning toward works-based faith, if not worse. At some point, many act as if they have done enough, and as long as they still warm the pew, they continue to be ok. For others, it becomes "once-saved, barely-saved". They never sense the peace that comes with the assurance of salvation; they are a wreck spiritually.

When are we going to realize how we approach the subject of baptism can cause so much damage? When are we going to proach the subject more scriptually, in the context of surrender to Christ and repentence. Too often, its a step by step hear-believe-confess-repent-baptize or some other step by step approach. Paul wrote (Phil 2) "continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good purpose". Before what I quoted, Paul spoke of our attitude being the same as Christ's, who (v7) "made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant" and who (v8) "became obedient to death". In this context, working out our salvation must mean taking the attitude of Christ, which in Paul's mind apparently is humility and submission to God's will and purpose.

Maybe I am trying to steer this thread a different direction that what others took my original intent, but the responses to this thread so far have just been so much well-practiced rhetoric. I mourn for those who have fallen away so quickly, and wonder if it isn't how we initially teach them about such matters. This past January or so, I heard a sermon that, while I only vaguely remember the main point, it gave some interesting statistics on the median time it takes someone to fall away from faith, that is, when, not if, 50% will fall back to their old ways. These people might still be attending church, but they admit that their lives have fallen back to old patterns/sins/habits. I remember who was speaking, so I could ask him for his source.

Age group how long adult, past college or no college 4 weeks college students end of the current semester teenagers 1 week

Enough rambling. Is anyone making sense of what I am trying to say? Should I start over?

-- Anonymous, November 26, 1999

Mark,

Wasn't trying to sink the ship, just support it. I agree that some have overstated the need for immersion. I believe the reason baptism was not emphasized in the days Jesus walked on earth was because He still lived under the Law and the New Covenant had not been established. After His death, burial and resurrection, baptism was the word for the day along with hearing, belief, confession, repentance and immersion into Christ. Yes , we are saved by grace through faith, baptism does not take that away one little bit. Scriptural grace and faith include obedience. The question that needs to be answered is "When" do you come under the saving grace of God through faith?

Yes, we need to state the case for all of the biblical plan of salvation, not just one word. Yes, we need to be concerned about those who are falling away shortly after they have been converted to Christ. Do they understand that obedience is moret than just baptism? Do they understand that they must be faithful and that entails more than just attendance to the morning services. That biblical faithfulness is a lifestyle, which is inconvenient many times. It is a life long challenge and decision not a one time moment.

-- Anonymous, November 27, 1999

"The question that needs to be answered is 'When' do you come under the saving grace of God through faith?"

"if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9 There are no other conditions set forth in the New Testament for salvation of the unsaved. IMO, it occurs at the exact moment that those two things occur. Baptism applies to the saved and the lost as well: it is an act of obedience for the saved, publicly professing their faith in Christ. For the lost, while they might THINK that it brings salvation, the reality is that they go into the water lost and dry, and come out lost and wet. As to immersion, I have been taught that our living example in everything was the life of Jesus. Jesus went down into the River Jordan and was baptised through immersion (ie, he was lowered into the water). The scriptural description is "and straigthway coming up OUT OF THE WATER..." Mark 1:10. Therefore, IMO, present day baptism should be in like manner.

-- Anonymous, November 28, 1999

To Claude:

Excellent observation. To add anything else to salvation is to preach "another gospel" as indicated by Paul in his address to the Galatians. Paul specifically is preaching that salvation is by the Grace of God (1:6) to specifically correct the false teachings of salvation through works. The awesome revelation explained by the Holy Spirit through Paul culminates in chapter 3 verses 21-29, through faith (vs.26) we have been baptized into Christ (27). Salvation is the translation of an individual from death into life, God cutting away the body of sin and bringing (baptizing) us into His Body. This happens at Romans 10:9,10. What must I do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ! Everything subsequent is a work to show your faith is not dead.

Sincerely,

-- Anonymous, November 29, 1999