Just what we need: another 100,000 people in Greater Seattle.

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Reductions in ferry subsidies mean reductions in service (since they won't be able to raise fares without popular approval, and privatization assumes that some corporation will magically be able to operate the system while cutting about 60% of the system's operating expenses).

The standard Eymanesque response is: so what? Those ferry commuters should just live closer to their jobs.

So, how about it, folks? Who wants to volunteer THEIR neighborhood to house a couple thousand former Bremertonians and Vashon Islanders?

-- PeterH (hartikka@primenet.com), November 24, 1999

Answers

Hmm... lesse here, so it's true, ALL bremertonians and vashon islanders work in East Sound. First off, you can live wherever you want to, but please, don't force me to pay for it. That's the message, not "move closer to your jobs".

If I decide to move out to a small community called Centralia, and commute to downtown Seattle, should you, Peter, pay a commuter service to run between Centralia and Seattle, or should I, through user fees pay for that service? I can hear the howls: "Oh, but Centralia is too far, that's not what we're talking about." But it IIISS what we're talking about. When is 'too far' too far? When is it ok to subsidize a ferry system, for which 14 cents on the dollar come from user fees? 14 cents on the dollar (Thanks to Craig for the link to federal transit stats on the Wa Ferry system). At 14 cents on the dollar, I would submit, that with a bit of clever financial juggling, the state of washington could have made the ferry system FREE! At minimum, they could have cut the fares in 1/2, and then at least 7 cents on the dollar would be covered. After I made the conclusion that the fees were only covering pennies on the dollar, based on statements from State officials, and then Craig confirmed my suspicion by pointing to the stats, I was stunned at how inefficient the system is, BEFORE 695. Do we subsidize a transit system from spokane to seattle? No. Because it's too far to be efficiently run. Apparently, the state tacitly implies the same is true with the ferry run accross puget sound, yet the scream that subsidies be continued. If it can't be done more efficiently, it shouldn't be done.

-- Paul Oss (jnaut@earthlink.net), November 24, 1999.


"Those ferry commuters should just live closer to their jobs. " WAIT A MINUTE.

Seattle is going to GREAT LENGTHS to increase it's population density (see Smartgrowth site http://www.metrokc.gov/smartgrowth/) at great expense and considerable curtailment of the property rights of its rural neighbors.

You are now asking that we SUBSIDIZE you to avert the effects that ARE THE GOAL of YOUR OWN policies???

What next? Do you want us to subsidize you to turn your thermostat up to a point that we should subsidize you to buy an air conditioner?

-- Craig Carson (craigcar@crosswinds.net), November 24, 1999.


"Hmm... lesse here, so it's true, ALL bremertonians and vashon islanders work in East Sound."

Er, no... 100,000 is the approximate total number of people who commute by ferry each day. There are a LOT more than 100,000 people in the West Sound.

"When is it ok to subsidize a ferry system, for which 14 cents on the dollar come from user fees?"

Well, do you really think that those who *choose* to live on mini- estates on the Sammamish Plateau are paying the *full cost* of the extra roads and sewer lines and police & fire coverage they require? You deplore density, but the fact is that a 35-unit condo building (like mine) requires a lot less infrastructure than 35 one-acre lots. Yet, of course, condos pay the same property tax rates as any other property.

-- PeterH (hartikka@primenet.com), November 24, 1999.


True, there are more than 100,000 people in west sound, so I assume that you're calculating 100,000 IN west sound commute to downtown Seattle. I assume this is because "that's where the money is". Hmmm.

"Well, do you really think that those who *choose* to live on mini- estates on the Sammamish Plateau are paying the *full cost* of the extra roads and sewer lines and police & fire coverage they require?"

It's possible they are, due to the extremely high property taxes that they pay on those mini-estates. Do you think that it's *fair* that a small family in east Spokane pay for a ferry system to run between Bremerton and Seattle? Apparently you do. I don't feel I should pay for a localized bus system in Spokane. I do however, believe that I should pay for the services which are localized to me. This has already been well hashed out, before I saw your name pop up in this discussion forum. Especially in the sales tax equalization thread. And, to answer your question directly, NO I don't feel I should pay for that. That part of government is next. We're leaving no stones unturned on this one.

"You deplore density,"

I deplore density? How on earth would anyone get that idea from my first response? I complain about people moving into the boonies because they want 600 extra square feet on their house for the same price and I deplore density? I live in Capitol Hill, sir, and not only am I fine with density, I prefer it. My sister deplores density, and chose to move to Silverdale for the extry 800 square feet. That was her choice. I don't want to subsidize it. I also warned her, long before anyone ever heard of 695 of the potential consequences of disrupted ferry service due to my militant assed, government reducin' attitudes. She took the 800 square feet. The rest will be history.

"but the fact is that a 35-unit condo building (like mine) requires a lot less infrastructure than 35 one-acre lots. Yet, of course, condos pay the same property tax rates as any other property."

2 right, 1 wrong. Yes, a bunch of 35 one acre lots do require more infrastructure and they do pay the same property tax RATES as any other property. They do not, however, on average, pay the same $'s that the 35 acre estates pay. That's why having everyone pay the same tax rate IS fair, always HAS been fair, and always WILL be fair. The more money you make and spend, the more taxes you pay. See the newspaper article which reports the projected INCREASE of revenue to the state for next year. Why? Cause we gots lots of rich people payin' lots of taxes. But the conventional wisdom is 'raise tax rates'. Economics education in this country is null and void.

-- Paul Oss (jnaut@earthlink.net), November 24, 1999.


"Well, do you really think that those who *choose* to live on mini- estates on the Sammamish Plateau are paying the *full cost* of the extra roads and sewer lines and police & fire coverage they require? You deplore density, but the fact is that a 35-unit condo building (like mine) requires a lot less infrastructure than 35 one-acre lots. Yet, of course, condos pay the same property tax rates as any other property. "

Visions of MOM telling me, "Well, I suppose if all the OTHER kids jumped off the roof, you would too!"

As Mom would say, that may be a great reason for you to campaign for greater fees from developers to offset their alleged subsidies by the taxpayer. That IS NOT a good rationale to defend subsidizing people to live on the west side of the sound and commute to Seattle. We ought to be getting the government OUT of the business of subsidizing people to do things that make no economic sense, not finding additional groups to inefficiently subsidize in the interest of equity.

-- Mark Stilson (mark842@hotmail.com), November 24, 1999.



Can you provide the site that indicates that 100,000 people come into Seattle on the ferries every day? I REALLY like to see that.

My understanding is that the number is a little less. Something like 80,000 less. But I'm willing to check your info.

Westin

"Have you emailed Rep. Fisher (fisher_ru@leg.wa.gov) to resign today?"

-- Westin (jimwestin@netscape.net), November 26, 1999.


Westin:

Well- WSF claims 70,100 total passengers/day on their info website. They also claim 25,587,112 passengers carried per year.

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/ferries/about-wsf/about-facts.cfm

What they reported to the feds for the same year however was 13,968,253 annual unlinked trips, and an average of 32,266 weekday unlinked trips., 39,083 Saturday unlinked trips, and 32,436 Sunday unlinked trips.

http://www.ntdprogram.com/NTD/Profiles.nsf/1997+Exceeding+200000/0035/ $File/P0035.PDF

These are for the WHOLE SYSTEM, not just the west sound to East Sound commute. So I think, unless the state is fibbing to the feds, the average number of commuters is somewhat less than 35,000, at least in 1997.

-- CraigCarson (craigcar@crosswinds.net), November 26, 1999.


Definition:

unlinked passenger trip The number of passengers who board public transportation vehicles. A passenger is counted each time she or he boards a vehicle even though she or he may be on the same journey from origin to destination. (FTA)

-- (craigcar@crosswinds.net), November 26, 1999.


yeah I'm tired of paying for your ride to Seattle move closer or PAY FOR IT BABY!!!!! CUT THE PORK

-- roy (nannoook@aol.com), December 02, 1999.

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