I think this has been discussed before and if so I"m sorry. Please post the link to where this has been discussed. And any updated comments anyone would like to make about how we can protect motors, etc, if there do happen to be disruptions in our areas...

thanks.

snip> > >From another list. I think J.R. stated this well > > >When the going gets tough....RUN! > >Here's a little something I posted sometime back about dirty power. >Personally, if the power is unreliable after Jan 1 I will turn off most all >appliances till the power gets stable. Actually I have several generators >so I will simply switch my entire home to homemade power. > > >Dirty power falls into two categories, Low-voltage and Spikes. Low-voltage >usually won't cause any damage to embedded controllers, computers, TVs etc. >but will burn out motors. Spikes, very short duration high-voltages, won't >hurt motors but can destroy embedded controllers, computers, TV etc. After >Jan 1 I expect that for at least a period of days, maybe longer, most >electricity will be very dirty. With many sub-stations, factories, >generators, etc dropping off line then coming back online, over and over, >we >will see very dirty and unreliable power nearly everywhere. Hundreds of >times more motors will burnout than there are replacements. Factories, >high-rise buildings, and more will be unable to function for the lack of >replacement motors. > >I here you saying, "Don't all embedded controllers have surge and spike >suppressers?" Yes they sure do. As a matter of fact, most of the >industrial strength controllers have extra heavy-duty suppressers. Here's >the rub. Most spike and surge suppressers use a semiconductor device to >absorb the energy in the surge or spike. A spike's duration is very short, >on the order a microsecond or two, and its peak voltage can be hundreds of >times higher that the normal voltage. Surge/spike suppressers convert the >spikes into heat. The suppressor must have a cooling-off time between >spikes or it will over heat and sometimes even explode like a small >firecracker. Most suppressors are designed to absorb only a few spikes per >second, with lots of cooling time between spikes. I expect the "Dirty > Power" problem will over stress many surge suppressors, and once they're >blown out the spikes will then go right into the controller, which of >course >will destroy it. > >Some say that the date problem may effect less then 1% of all embedded >controllers. This may be so, but I think dirty power may affect ten-times >as many. Shortly after Jan 1, I would not be a bit surprised if there were >over one hundred million burnt-out motors and controllers across this >nation. Remember, water treatment, sewage treatment, high-rise buildings, >food & medical manufacturing, oil refineries, and just about everything >else >just won't work without electric motors. Almost all motors have no >controllers associated with them, but they will suffer from dirty power >just >the same. It may take months if not years to fix or replace all these dead >motors. > >-JR >

-- Anonymous, November 22, 1999

Answers

Can't disagree with anything that you are saying technically, but will it really be that bad? If you want to protect electrical loads, use a battery powered UPS system, and power your inverter from the battery. (See banner ad on this page). Generastors suck up lots of fuel if you have to run 'em continuously. With a battery/inverter system you won't have to!

-- Anonymous, November 22, 1999

Low frequency is more damaging to electric motors than low voltage, but in any case the real cause of burnt out motors is a sustained high current. Therefore, there is a simple method of protection, but one that I would reccommend you employ an electrician for. Fit an in-line fuse to all appliances with electric motors, where the continuous rating of the fuse will just meet the demands of the appliance. Many fuses are dual rated to allow for the short duration start-up current demanded by electric motors, but have a much lower continuous rating for normal operation. I use 5/10A fuses for 1 KVA appliances (at 230 V in NZ). 5A continuous, and 10A instantaneous rating, but occasionally a fuse will blow during appliance start-up.

In any circumstance where there would be sufficient current flowing to damage the motor, then the fuse will go first. So ensure that you have a good supply of fuses on hand. Always ensure that a blown fuse is replaced with one of the correct rating, and TURN OFF the appliance before changing a fuse.

Malcolm

-- Anonymous, November 22, 1999

Walter

Or should I say JR. The article is a very good one and it makes good sense but I believe that during a discussion of this topic, it was decided that the electric utilities had a dampening system that supposedly wouldn't allow real dirty power to come to the user. I'm pretty sure FactFinder told us that if the votage fell below 50 (that mey not be exact figure) the flow would stop). If they have the same kind of safety for the spikes, then I don't see how we could end up with real dirty power (enough to do real damage). I could use some help with this explanation if the pros are reading this.

If JR has done his homework on this and all utilities cannot adequately control low-voltage and spikes then I agree we may not lose electrical power but have almost as many problems.

-- Anonymous, November 22, 1999

Thanks. JR was someone on another post and I just put the question up here. will look for more. Don't know if "factfinder" is respected here for his electric "knowledge" (like Rick said, everyone makes their own assesments based on their own experience), but, I have not been impressed with the way he has downplayed the very serious risks to oil/fuel over on tb2000 forum.

-- Anonymous, November 22, 1999

Walter, may I expect your feedback after the rollover as well? :)

Regards,

-- Anonymous, November 22, 1999

Walter, will you be providing me with your feedback after the rollover as well? That would be nice. :)

Regards,

-- Anonymous, November 22, 1999

I'm confused. I hear a lot of people talking about bringing down systems before the rollover, and bringing them back up safely afterwards. In fact, this is what I'm planning to do with my vehicles, just in case there is an embedded chip that happens to be set at the right time, and that may cause some weird problems. I think that the cars I have will be fine if I do this. However, I've read that shutting down some systems won't fix the problems, but just delay them. If that's the case, I can see where it would be easier to troubleshoot a system if you bring it up bit by bit, and fix what's not working before you bring up the next part of the system. But Dale Way says that embedded chips are the least of our worries, that you need only reset their clocks or reboot them. Is that what these organizations think will happen? They can just bring there systems back up after the New Year and that they'll be okay? That doesn't jive with the other stuff I've been reading about embedded chips. In some cases, when systems are brought down, they don't come back up. For example, I read that a high percentage of oil wells had to be redrilled when tested for Y2k, and the pumping systems no longer worked. I really wonder, does anybody really know what's going on?

Victoria

-- Anonymous, November 22, 1999

Hi Victoria. The questions you ask are good ones. Early on in Y2k re-mediation, there was a big concern about whether re-booting a device could cause problems, even though the device sailed through the rollover period ok. This became a greater concern about a year ago when some industry folks were reporting this very problem with some power plant controls. Interestingly, this type of scenario was played out last night in Y2k: The Movie (Rick, did you have something to do with that?).

One way to test for it is a "rollover, then re-boot, then rollover again" test. Forward the clock in the device or system to near the rollover, let it roll over, wait a few minutes, then re-boot the device, verify it is still working properly, and then move the clock back and let it roll over again (sorry about the run-on sentence!). A similar test lets the clock roll over while the device is powered down. If the device passes these tests, it should be ok whether or not it is powered up for the roll over. I hope this helps.

-- Anonymous, November 22, 1999

Thanks Dan,

So maybe some companies are "hoping" that bringing their systems down for the rollover will eliminate some of their problems. That's probably a good idea. I'm glad to hear that a lot of organizations are planning to do this, and that they're letting us know about it. It seems that "pollies" would recognize that Y2K is very serious if companies are planning to do this, in spite of the huge amounts of money that they'll potentially lose if you assume that there are no problems. I suspect that a lot more people will take this seriously right before the rollover when they see and possibly experience the actions of these companies that are taking precautions. By then, however, it will be too late for much preparation, outside of buying water and batteries from 7/11. (7/11 will be stocking items for Y2k, in case you didn't read about that on Gary North's site a month or so ago.)

-- Anonymous, November 22, 1999