WARNING: AndyRay's SPIN & OPINION: New to Y2K? Concerned about possible failures? Another perspective...greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread |
The JoAnne Effect was supposed to strike throughout the previous year. It was predicted to "create chaos" and be "the wake-up call for the CEO's who have not yet grasped what the programmers have done to them."
It turned out to be more like the snooze button...
People have been fighting over the Y2K issue since it's inception. Some of it has not been nice. There are information technology professionals about that do not believe Y2K is going to have devastating effects on your life. You will find a few here (though this is a christian religious site). They are often derided and called by a name that I personally bear with a particular pride: Polly.
You will also find people (most here, in fact) who disgaree with the Polly scenarios, and believe the events surrounding Y2K will range from serious interruptions to total catastrophy. They are called Doomers.
There is a surprising consensus occuring as the date draws nearer. It is exhibited in several ways. For instance, last year you could separate the Doomers from the Pollys by asking whether or not they believed their power utility would fail where they live. Now, a significant portion of Doomers acknowledge that power will either remain on, or fluctuate in a manageable fashion - as opposed to failing and remaining off for a period measured in days (weeks, or months). (See Your prediction please: Do you believe your local electric utility will deliver uninterrupted power through the 991231 - 000101 roll-over?)
There are some important things to consider these last few weeks of 1999:
- You will read that it is now too late to do anything to prepare at this stage. This is false for two reasons: 1) The people making these claims are expecting things to be much worse than Y2K could ever have been. 2) You can, if you believe you have a need, prepare in some way. (I am personally not doing anything different for Y2K...I had an opportunity to purchase a generator for one of my cottages that could actually utilise it, and turned it down because a) installing a generator now would send a confusing message to those I have talked about regarding Y2K; and b) I believe generators will be very inexpensive after the first of the year - I could probably get a great deal on one from a local Doomer...)
- You will read a lot of fighting. This is an unfortunate by-product of disagreement about any issue. Some of it is petty. Among the moderates in both camps, however, I sense a refreshing respect.
- You will read that the worst is yet to come. In my opinion, the worst has already occurred. Why do I believe this? Companies have been experiencing Y2K programming issues for years - and they have fixed them as the failures occurred.
- You will read scary predictions from "experts." Well, there's a link at the top of this message to an "expert"'s opinion regarding the JoAnne Effect. These effects occurred, but they had so little noticable impact that I often refer to it as the JoAnne Non-Effect. These "experts" all have something to sell you. Some of them are selling books and dried foods, while others are attempting to get you to buy into their philosophy or religion.
As is the case in much of life, calmer minds prevail. If you are in a state of panic because of what you have read or viewed on television, you should examine the other side of the issue closely. There are gaps in the logic Doomers applied to reach their conclusions. The few that have revised their position in light of the ever-changing facts have been met with derision. In the end, the machines will respond in ways dictated by the laws of physics and their programme's code - how we as individuals respond is a matter of individual choice.
Patient Regards,
Andy Ray
-- Andy Ray (andyman633@hotmail.com), November 22, 1999
Mr. Ray, I believe that your headline is mislabeled. Yours is THE perspective as it is the majority view or spin I have head in the mainstream media for quite some time. Those expecting major problems are in the minority and are the OTHER perspective.
-- smfdoc (smfdoc@aol.com), November 22, 1999.
Folks, if you are new to Y2K, please do your research and make your own decision.Andy Ray DOES have an agenda himself, he is writing a book on what he considers to be the irrational reaction to the possibilities of Y2K problems.
Most of us here do expect problems, ranging from moderate to devastating. Very few of us are hoping for them.
There have been a number of "failed" predictions. So what? We will all start to know in *39* days. Past performance is no indication of future results, as they say in the investing industry.
If you are new here, welcome. Things can get a bit heated, but even the folks like Andy Ray are accepted. Just don't get nasty, don't get foul mouthed. We are trying a lot harder to play well together, these last few weeks.
-- mushroom (mushroom_bs_too_long@yahoo.com), November 22, 1999.
Yes, this is the opinion of Andy Ray. It is shared by a few of the other regulars here, like Y2K Pro, Mr. Decker, Flint and Hoffmeister.It is my opinion that these people refuse to face the facts. They ignore the warnings of Mr. Koskinem, the US Senate special panel on Y2K, the Red Cross, IBM and countless others. They can not accept the fact that their nice little comfy lives may be disrupted by Y2K. They are afraid.
On the other side, we have SEVERAL HUNDRED people here with the "doomer" attitude. This includes many people with programming experience (875 man-years at last count), engineers, doctors and many other smart, thinking people. Yes, the doomers may also be afraid, but they are prepared.
So newbies, you decide. Ignore the problem and hope it goes away, or prepare for it. It's your choice. It's your life. It's your family.
Tick... Tock... <:00=
-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), November 22, 1999.
Please delete these polly trolls.
-- (brett@miklos.org), November 22, 1999.
(snip from ed yourdon's home page) No doubt there will be some who gleefully proclaim, "This just proves that Ed was wrong about Y2K all along! He has given up on his 'doomer' position, but he's too much of a coward to say so!" Well, time will tell whether any of us were right or wrong about Y2K - - but for now, my perspective on Y2K remains essentially unchanged. I stand by the comments I've made in all of the articles and essays that I've written; at a "macro" level, I still have a pessimistic outlook about the outcome of Y2K. We can argue indefinitely about whether the large government agencies and the large companies in England, Canada, Australia, and the U.S. will manage to muddle through, and whether the failure or bankruptcy of a few such organizations and/or agencies will have a dramatic impact. But even amongst the optimists, there seems to be a common consensus that small businesses, small towns/counties, and small (aka Third World) countries are so far behind that they're unlikely to finish repairing a signficant percentage of their mission-critical systems. The "fortress America" attitude amongst the optimists seems to be, "Well, so what if half of the small businesses don't do anything about Y2K until they see what breaks? So what if Eastern Europe, Africa, South America, the Middle East, and most of Asia don't manage to repair their systems? Why should I believe that this will have any impact on my life?" Similarly, we can argue indefinitely about whether the governmental authorities and the private-sector organizations (e.g., the banks, the utilities, the telephone companies, etc.) are doing a good job or a bad job in terms of reporting their status and progress to the public. But there is a widespread theme that they're in control of the situation, and that (notwithstanding the possibility of a few "glitches") there's really nothing serious to worry about. Yet the federal government has acknowledged that it doesn't have the resources to provide emergency relief to all of the local towns and communities across the country; local communities are being told that they're on their own, and that they should make their own contingency plans. But the federal government can't force them to do so, nor can it force small businesses to make Y2K a top priority, nor can it issue ultimatums to foreign governments to do anything about Y2K. I don't even think it has control over the outcome of Y2K repairs within its own agencies, for non-compliant code doesn't listen to the rhetoric of politicians -- it either works, or it doesn't work. Ultimately, there is only a limited amount of control that corporations and government agencies have over the technological outcome of Y2K; yet the prevailing attitude seems to be that government and industry are in control, as long as they can "manage" the perceptions of the public. I have believed, all along, that Y2K is too big, too complex, and too systemic in nature to be "controlled" from a technological perspective; and I believe that the public's perception of Y2K will ultimately be shaped by tangible events that impact their lives, much more than it's shaped by the "spin control" efforts of government and industry. For the past few months, the PR spin control has been quite effective, and I fully expect that it will continue throughout the summer as government and industry seek to "reassure" the public. And since the public would generally prefer to be reassured that the government is taking care of any problems looming on the horizon, rather than face the possibility of serious disruptions, the spin control efforts may continue succeeding even into the fall of 1999.Those who want me to continue participating in the public debate sometimes ask me, "But isn't it possible that things will change in the final months of Y2K?" And the optimists ask a roughly similar question: "Yes, I agree that things look bad in small companies, small towns, and small countries -- and maybe even in some of the big companies and big agencies. But don't you agree that with a lot of hard work, we can redouble our efforts, achieve a quantum leap in productivity, and make enough progress in these last few months to avert disaster?" To which my answer is, quite simply, "No." If you believe in the Tooth Fairy, or in the kind of implausible miracles favored by Hollywood script-writers, then perhaps you can sustain your belief that everything will somehow work out in the end. If you're looking at an individual company, or an individual government agency, perhaps you can make a plausible case -- yes, sometimes we get lucky, sometimes the combination of inspiration and perspiration are sufficient to overcome enormous odds. But at the macro level, I don't think it makes sense. We have 30 years of data in the software field that tells what to expect in the "average" case -- i.e., 25% of all projects are cancelled, 15% are delivered behind schedule, and the resulting systems have an average of one defect for every thousand lines of code.
-- millions dead (hopeful@doo.mer), November 22, 1999.
They call it the Y2K problem for a very good reason, not the various dates in 1999 problem. 1999 failures are a drop in the bucket. The number of programs that do any look-ahead processing is tiny when compared to the total number of mainframe, mid-range, PC and embedded systems that have a date problem.It ain't Y2K yet. Not a prediction, but a FACT!
Tick... Tock... <:00=
-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), November 22, 1999.
My father in law is the corporate disaster recovery planner at cuna mutual here in soon-to-be frozen madison wisconsin.Cuna mutual has had over 150 non-disasterous y2k related errors this year.
-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), November 22, 1999.
Mushroom said.Folks, if you are new to Y2K, please do your research and make your own decision.
He goes on to say.
Andy Ray DOES have an agenda himself, he is writing a book on what he considers to be the irrational reaction to the possibilities of Y2K problems.
This is good advice folks. While you are at it you might be interested in the large amounts of money made by the Doomer personalities. This would include Mr. Yourdon, Gary North, Michael Hyatt, and others. There is certainly nothing wrong with free enterprise but the motivations behind every movement need to be considered when arriving at your conclusions. In the end you should conclude that being prepared for unforeseen emergencies is always a wise and prudent decision.
-- Truth (at@the.ready), November 22, 1999.
A rational explanation for making Y2K preparations
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001R UO
Sincerely,
Stan FarynaGot 14 days of preps? If not, get started now. Click here.
Click here and check out the TB2000 preparation forum.
-- Stan Faryna (faryna@groupmail.com), November 22, 1999.
Sysman, you and others of the more "pessimistic" views tend to apply dual modes when addressing Y2k.When discussing failures, everything is fair game. The past year has seen the posting of virtually any computer related problem as "evidence".
When discussing impacts of those failures, the field gets extremely narrow. That is, it appears only failures directly related to date processing qualify when addressing the impacts of Y2k.
And after all, no one is actually debating whether or not there will be system failures due to Y2k. It is the impact of those failures that is being discussed.
My opinions are basically described in this thread:
And no, Sysman, I'm not "scared". If you want to "face facts", try discussing the "facts" of the past year, and why none of these dire consequences have resulted from the high-rate of system failures already incurred.
-- Hoffmeister (hoff_meister@my-deja.com), November 22, 1999.
Andy Ray and Y2KPro seem to be overlooking the fact that not all Y2K problems that occur at rollover will be due to software. There are some nuts/nut cults/etc. out there who are willing to help the end of the world come about. That, on top of the actual software induced Y2K problems, could bring the whole thing down around our ears. It is only prudent to prepare for disruptions, only the extent of the preparations can be argued.
-- just wondering (what.it.is@about.com), November 22, 1999.
Truth,Mr. Yourdon, Gary North, Michael Hyatt don't have $.01 of my money. And please remember, this site is free.
I have been paid to program for almost 32 years. I don't need anybody to tell me that Y2K is a problem. I have seen it, many times, with my own eyes.
This is why I'm here. It's on the "about" page:
This forum is intended for people who are concerned about the impact of the Y2000 problem on their personal lives, and who want to discuss various fallback contingency plans with other like-minded people."
Why are you here?
Tick... Tock... <:00=
-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), November 22, 1999.
Hoff,We have done this a dozen times.
Fact. There HAVE BEEN early Y2K problems, caused by failures in DATE PROCESSING.
Fact. The number of systems that do any look-ahead processing is tiny. We can argue about what percentage, but it is small.
Fact. CURRENT-DATE is still 1999. The "world database" has very few year 2000 dates.
Fact. Much has been spent in an attempt to fix the problem. You think it has been enough. I'm not so sure. Same for testing.
I've got to go for now. Real work calls. Later.
Tick... Tock... <:00=
-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), November 22, 1999.
HEADLINES: NBC Y2K MOVIE PANICS POLLIES!!!Today we learned that Andy Ray, Y2K Pro, Hoffmeister, Cherri and "Truth" are in panic mode! With only 39 days remaining, the pollys and trolls fear that some viewers of last night's poorly done Y2K movie may actually go to the store and BUY SOME EXTRA CANNED TUNA AND SOUP. Sources report the pollys are so frightened by this spectre that they will flood the TB2000 forum with nonsense and trolls for the next several days. Breaking...
-- (TrollPatrol@ooo.com), November 22, 1999.
Before February 1st of this year, I didn't know one way or another if the Jo Anne Effect was going to cause noticeable problems that would end up being reported to the media. After February 1st, when Wal-Mart and some other companies entered their fiscal year 2000 with no reported problems, I realized that what PNG had been saying on this forum was true...that problems in accounting software aren't nearly as noticeable to outsiders as problems in manufacturing or distribution would be. Accounting software has to do with "keeping score."We won't hear that much about Y2K-related manufacturing or distribution problems until January 2000. It was clear to me in February that we weren't going to hear much about fiscal year rollover problems in accounting software on April 1st and July 1st. Most people on this forum weren't expecting "show-stoppers" on April 1st and July 1st either, but yet the issue of few reported problems does continue to get raised from time to time here for some reason.
Anyone who'd like to learn more about the significance and non- significance of fiscal year rollovers in accounting software, as well as find examples of problems that have occured so far can find quite a few relevant links on the following thread:
"Significance of States Fiscal Start"
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00122f
Most non-accounting software problems, PC BIOS chip and PC operating system problems, and embedded system/process control system problems are still ahead of us. Those are the ones with the potential of being "show-stoppers."
Other resources on the Year 2000 problem:
The Executive Summary of the Senate Y2K Committee's 100 day report:
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001Rwk
http://www.senate.gov/~y2k/documents/100dayrpt/exec_sum_100days.pdfThe Senate Y2K Committee's 100 day report:
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001SFC
http://www.senate.gov/~y2k/documents/100dayrpt/-------
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http://www.accessatlanta.com/partners/ajc/reports/y2k/dos.html
[snip]
[The Atlanta Journal-Constitution: 9.19.99]
Be prepared: A list of do's
By Marilyn Geewax
Atlanta Journal-Constitution Staff Writer
Washington -- Don't panic, but get prepared. While the nation's basic infrastructure will function after Jan. 1, authorities say the Y2K computer bug is sure to cause some problems. The power could go out in one community, while the water system falters in another and traffic lights malfunction in still another. Because no one can say with certainty which systems might fail, "the basic message we are giving people is ... be prepared for an emergency," said Red Cross spokeswoman Leslie Credit. Start your preparations by figuring out who is going to be in your household between Dec. 31 and mid-January, and what each person's special needs will be. Then lay out a strategy for making sure everyone can stay hydrated, healthy and warm for up to two weeks. These are among the recommendations being made by mainstream agencies:
---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------
WATER
THE POTENTIAL PROBLEM:
Local providers typically keep water flowing by using pumps and valves controlled by microprocessors and chips. Computers also regulate various aspects of water treatment, such as the addition of chlorine. In addition, Y2K-related power outages could cause a loss of heat that would allow pipes to freeze and burst.
THE SOLUTION:
[snip]
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Senate Special Committee on the Year 2000 Technology Problem:
http://www.senate.gov/~y2k/House Subcommittee on Government Management, Information and Technology:
http://www.house.gov/reform/gmit/y2k/index.htm-------
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Family Disaster Supplies Kit (FEMA):
http://www.fema.gov/library/diskit.htmEmergency Food and Water Supplies (FEMA):
http://www.fema.gov/library/emfdwtr.htm[snip]
Emergency Food and Water Supplies
If an earthquake, hurricane, winter storm or other disaster ever strikes your community, you might not have access to food, water and electricity for days, or even weeks. By taking a little time now to store emergency food and water supplies, you can provide for your entire family.
This brochure was developed by the Federal Emergency Management Agency's Community and Family Preparedness Programs which provides information to help families prepare for all types of disasters.
WATER: THE ABSOLUTE NECESSITY
Stocking water reserves and learning how to purify contaminated water should be among your top priorities in preparing for an emergency. You should store at least a two-week supply of water for each member of your family.
[snip]
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Current articles about Y2K
Newswire search:
http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news?o=1&p=%22year+2000% 22+bug+glitch+y2k&za=or&t=0&g=1&n=20Newspaper article search:
http://search.excite.com/search.gw?search=%22year+2000% 22+bug*+glitch*+y2k&c=timely&callerfarm=ntInfoseek newswire search:
http://infoseek.go.com/Titles?qt=%22year+2000% 22+bug*+glitch*+y2k&col=NX%2Crf_i500sRD%2Ckt%3DA% 2Cak_news1486&sv=IS&lk=noframes&svx=home_searchboxSanger and Shannon's Review of Y2K News Reports:
http://sangersreview.com/Y2K news articles, updated daily (from WorldNetDaily):
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/y2k_index.shtml-------
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The Y2K Middle Ground:
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001fItTB 2000 (Y2000) Preparation Forum (Y2K Prep Only Discussions):
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a.tcl?topic=TimeBomb%202000%20% 28Y2000%29%20Preparation%20ForumYear 2000 Preparation Archive:
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a.tcl?topic=Year%202000% 20Preparation%20ArchiveBrian's Y2K research links:
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001A3xEd Yourdon's Y2K links and resources:
http://www.yourdon.com/y2kresources.htmlVideo recordings of presentations on the Year 2000 problem:
http://www.bog.frb.fed.us/y2k/video_index.htmContingency and Consequence Management Planning for Year 2000 Conversion - A Guide for State and Local Emergency Managers (FEMA):
http://www.fema.gov/y2k/ccmp.htm
http://www.dlg.oem2.state.co.us/oem/cpguidew.htm
http://www.fema.gov/y2k/ccmp_fl.pdfSenate Y2K Committee Hearings:
http://www.senate.gov/~y2k/hearings/"U.S. showcases $50 million Y2K Center"
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001mUs
-- Linkmeister (link@librarian.edu), November 22, 1999.
Morning all! I have to agree with Andy on one point, people should be circumspect about "hidden agendas". I am personally suspicious of both "Polly" (self-reporting from companies) and "Doomer" ("The world's gonna end, so buy my freeze dried hotdogs for $19.95/lb..." hucksters) information.A healthy bit of skepticism is required here to find what is the truth. I believe that the truth is that much of the remediation has been done to the best of the companies abilities. However, there will be glitches, it just remains to be seen where the glitches occur and the severity of their impact.
Glad to see civil discourse between the two camps! No polly bashing, please - that's only for uncivil trolls. Let's keep the forum clean - we've got a good thing going here.
Best wishes to all! :-)
-- Deb M. (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), November 22, 1999.
Added to title: WARNING: AndyRay's SPIN & OPINION:Andy Ray.
Time for you to go back to De Bunkerie. Where you laugh and carouse and generally show off your two-faced agenda.
Disinformation... and spin... is your stock in trade... oh trollish one.
Please leave.
Diane, asking nicely... for now
A TBY2K Sysop
;-D
-- Diane J. Squire (y2ktimebomb2000@yahoo.com), November 22, 1999.
Duke University and Medical Center's perspective, as of the beginning of this month.DUKE SAYS IT'S 99% COMPLIANT
Officials say the other 1% will be fixed; contingency plans intact
by Jennifer Chorpening, The Herald-Sun (Durham)
Duke officials announced Tuesday that both the university and health system are 99 percent Y2K compliant, and that in the next 59 days they expect to fix the last 1 percent.
But just in case, contingency plans involving diesel-fueled generators, stockpiled medications and bottled water are ready.
"We are confident we will not have a serious problem," said Tallman Trask III, Duke's executive vice president. But to keep aware of time passing, and to underscore how little time remains, Trask's own office contains a digital calendar counting down the seconds to New Year's Eve.
The glitch that may have some computers thinking Jan.1 really is the turn of the 19th century has tested Duke's manpo9wer and resources. The university paid $75million for Y2K fixes, most of which went to upgrade computers systems -- but that needed to be done anyway, Trask said. Specific Y2K problems cost the university $19 million, and of that $17 million was for5 the hospitals.
In the health system alone, more than 1,000 computer experts, technicians and engineers have worked for more thanh a year to ferret out lurking Y2K problems.
"We are essentially in as good as shape as we can be," said Michael Israel, vice president and chief of hospitals and clinical facilities for the Duke University Health System, which includes Duke Unversity Hospital, Durham Regional Hospital and Raleigh Community Hospital.
The hospitals will have a command center in place on Dec. 31, staffed by senior administrators, physicians and key staffers.
"We will treat it the same way that we treat a hurricane or ice storm," Israel said. In addition, the hospitals are, hoarding" medications and supplies, to have 5 percent more on hand than normal, Israel said.
Duke University Medical Center has 32 generators in case of power failure, and Duke Hospital and Durham Regional Hospital have top priority for power restoration from Duke Power Co.
More than 20,000 patient-care devices at Duke Hospital have been tested and determined to be Y2K compliant, officials said. This equipment includes diagnostic equipment, intravenous (IV) infusion pumps, respirators, vital sign monitors, heart-lung machines, X-rays and other imaging equipment.
Durham Regional Hospital has been preparing for Y2K since 1994. The hospital has spent $1.2 million on medical equipment replacements and upgrades. In addition, if the power goes out, the hospital has four back-up diesel generators that can power the hospital fort two weeks without refueling.
Trask noted that since the university is on semester break on Jan. 1, Duke administrators will have less to worry about. Students in campus housing will be urged to make alternate housing plans in the event of an emergency. Stufdents living in off-campus dormitories will not be allowed to stay late, beyond Dec. 19, or move in early, before Jan. 10. Fall semester ends Dec. 18 and classes for spring semester begin Jan. 12.
University services should not be interrupted, officials said. Dining services will stockpile a three-week supply of food in storerooms and freezers. In the event of prolonged power failure, the university will bring in freezer trucks. If water systems have problems, the university will bring in truckloads of bottled water.
The Duke Police Department will lead a university command center, opening at 6 p.m. Dec. 31 and staying open as long as necessary. In addition to normal staffing, Duke Police will add 120p police officers and 12 security officers , and another squad will be on standby.
Duke's telephone system, which works independently of outside networks, has bee4n tested and proclaimed Y2K compliant.
Duke spent $42 million upgrading the central administrative computer systems that process student records, employee payroll and benefits, and university finance and purchasing.
Backup payroll checks for employees to be paid Jan. 7 will be printed in mid-December.
Students need not hear a Y2K glitch coming between them and their financial aid. Trask said he has authority from the Board of Trustees to float students temporary loans.
As for outside forces disrupting Duke, Trask said the important things, "water, power and money," have all been researched.
Hospital workers, at least, will have some fun that night. The university has arranged for a nonalcoholic party for on-duty staff.
(Ed's note - Duke purchased Durham Regional only this year.)
Sorry for any typos.
-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), November 03, 1999
-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), November 22, 1999.
THANK YOU Linkmeister, you are awesome as usual :-)
-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), November 22, 1999.
Kev, that list of rationalizations is going to get pretty long.Can we look forward to:
Though predicted by some, mass failures at the actual century rollover were never really expected.
-- Hoffmeister (hoff_meister@my-deja.com), November 22, 1999.
Thanks for getting rid of the drivel at the beginning of Andy's post, Diane. Love the new headline!!! Keep it up!Go home pollys!!
-- (brett@miklos.org), November 22, 1999.
Thread title gets an edit..."Added to title: WARNING: AndyRay's SPIN & OPINION:" -Diane [a sysop]
This is getting to be pathetic Diane. If you feel something/somebody warrants deletion, then by all means delete. But to edit their messages is ridiculous. SPIN & OPINION indeed.
You want to send a message to the newbies who come here? Well, I think you have.
-- CD (not@here.com), November 22, 1999.
Spamming and "denial of service attacks are "pathetic" CD.Andy Ray crossed that line this past weekend.
You too, as one of the DeBunker troll team, are welcome to leave.
Cheers!
Diane, snipping 'n dusting
-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), November 22, 1999.
Hey, Di, if you ever want a breather, toss me the keys temporarily and I'll be glad to help out.(((((((((((((Diane)))))))))))))))))
Man, I am just lovin' this.
-- lisa (lisa@work.now), November 22, 1999.
Ergo my comment: If you feel something/somebody warrants deletion, then by all means delete.This editing stuff is nonsense however and only serves the opposite of what you intended.
-- CD (not@here.com), November 22, 1999.
Diane, you said:"Andy Ray crossed that line this past weekend.
You too, as one of the DeBunker troll team, are welcome to leave."
I respect your position as moderator here, but you too have crossed a line in your posts on this thread (and others recently, I might add). You have, at least in appearance, moved from a position of civility and fairness to a shrill, sarcastic and attacking mode that is every bit as bad as those you delete. What you seem to be saying is that no postion other than the approved one is tolerated here no matter how it is phrased. Furthermore, it seems clear from your posts and actions that you have suddenly decided that the job of moderator is not to moderate, but to sanatize. Is this actually what you intended?
Ed says this forum has become a different place lately, and I agree. Furthermore, I think we can all agree that many of the changes have not been improvements. However, until now there has still been a free exchange of opinions and ideas when people really wanted to engage in such. Your messages indicate this is no longer to be the case. If so, that would be a sad case indeed.
Yes, Andy Ray seems to take delight in goading those with opinions that differ from his. So have I from time to time. So has a, and E. Coli, and Will Huett, and Hawk and numerous others here who are never chastised for their actions. Come to think of it, I believe I have seen you do pretty much that very thing from time to time. In fact, your own posts are becoming increasingly acerbic and attacking. Is this forum really to become the exclusive forum of the "pessimists?" If so, say it and be done with it. Otherwise, look in the mirror one more time before casting those stones and leaning on the delete key quite so hard, hmmmm?
-- Paul Neuhardt (neuhardt@ultranet.com), November 22, 1999.
The only people who don't like the changes here are the polly trolls. If you don't like it here, feel free to LEAVE.
-- (brett@miklos.org), November 22, 1999.
brett:Sadly, what you say is almost true. A poster named "tempest" seems to be very upset because he was deleted despite holding the approved opinion. Somehow, all this editing and deleting doesn't sit quite so well when YOU are the target, even accidentally.
The problem, of course, is that most people *like* to see power abused, provided it's abused in their favor. When abuse turns against them, THEN they complain about abuse!
Not even tempest sees the point yet. He says "how could you delete me, when I agree with your opinion?" He should instead be reflecting that power corrupts, and we are seeing this domonstrated with a vengeance. No, it hasn't turned against you yet. But defending freedom doesn't mean just defending your own, and cheering its loss for others. If you let it slip away so long as YOU are comfortable, who will you turn to when the tide reverses?
-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), November 22, 1999.
Sysman,You must be a fellow compatriot from the early days of computing. I have thirty-three years of being paid to make computers do useful things. I started wiring plug-boards and advanced thru Process Control to mainframes to Networks(current). How many programs have you seen in your years that failed because of minor little problems in DATA. No one seems to want to talk about DATA but DATA is what all of these programs work on. Bad DATA causes lots of problems. It is sometimes hard to even find which program started the chain re- action of bad DATA.
I am not a "doomer", but I have seen enough foul-ups(even causes one or two) over the years to make me believe that this is one project that ain't gonna be done on time. I was a Boy Scout too, that's why I am going to be ready for problems. TEOTWAWKI is a possibility, so is a bump in the road.
Anyway, Sysman - hang in there and keep making decisions for yourself. Us old DP'ers aren't out of tricks yet......
wally wallman
-- wally wallman (wally_yllaw@hotmail.com), November 22, 1999.
tempest:You have, amazingly, managed to fit every definition of a troll I've ever seen anywhere -- and that's awfully hard to do. NO topical content, profanity, personal attacks, implied threats, you've touched all the bases. A tour de force, fer shure.
-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), November 22, 1999.
Flint -Y2K Pro got deleted for calling our lady of *sighs* a "sack of poo- poo" [I'm paraphrasing]"; what do you think the chances of Tempest getting deleted for calling you an "a**hole"? Hmmmmmm
-- Johnny Canuck (j_canuck@hotmail.com), November 23, 1999.
Hi wally,Well sir, since you have a year or so on me, I salute you!
You have hit the nail on the head. The Y2K problem is all about DATA. What Hoff and co. don't seem to understand is that we have virtually no year 2000 DATA yet. You can test and test and test, but it still doesn't equal the real world. It's the little things that alwaws get you.
Wiring? Yup, My first DP experience was on the IBM 402 Accounting machine.
I hope, and pray, that we do have that last trick in the bag...
Tick... Tock... <:00=
-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), November 23, 1999.
Founded by computer expert and noted author, Ed Yourdon:This forum is intended for people who are concerned about the impact of the Y2000 problem on their personal lives, and who want to discuss various fallback contingency plans with other like-minded people. It's not intended to provide advice/guidance for solving Y2000 problems within an IT organization.
About: http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/policy.tcl?topic=TimeBomb% 202000%20%28Y2000%29
-- (about@TB.2000), November 23, 1999.
This forum is intended for people who are concerned about the impact of the Y2000 problem on their personal lives, and who want to discuss various fallback contingency plans with other like- minded people. It's not intended to provide advice/guidance for solving Y2000 problems within an IT organization.NOTE 1. I am concerned about the impact of Y2K on my personal life.
NOTE 2.
(from Longmans Concise English Dictionary)
Discuss. /di`skus/ vt to consider or examine (a topic) in speech or writing. [ME Discussen fr L discussus, pp of discutere, fr dis -apart + quatere to shake]
Discussion. /di`skush(a)n/ n (an instance of) consideration of a question in open debate or conversation.
Someone please explain to me how it is possible to hold a discussion in a vaccuum, surrounded by people who all think the same thing ?
What this forum is becoming after recent developments does not in any way satisfy the requirements for the term "discussion".
In fact, the heavy handed and prejudicial behaviour of the sysops (now editing selected postings based solely on the poster's point of view), simply underlines the long trumpeted fact that the forum has been effectively hijacked by the most extreme elements of the ultra- pessimistic camp, and (lately), with very little real evidence to support their extreme anti-societal views, and scores of failed predictions behind them, they are no longer able to tolerate the open examination of their views and position. Thus, they seek to silence any voice of opposition. This process is now in full swing.
The first step in the process is to label any non-TEOTWAWKI-believing individual as a polly-troll. The second step is to generate a mythological state of war with a forum which supports an opposing position (the majority of the posters to which, if you'd ask them, would tell you they have no problem whatsoever with normal people making sensible, normal preparations in their own way), and use this artificial conflict as a justification for extremist behaviour. Step three involves tainting anyone who dares to question the established wisdom as "the enemy".
Strangely enough, the vast majority here seem to think that when these sorts of tactics are utilised by the gubb-mint, it represents evil of the worst kind, and must be resisted at all costs. Some discrepance there surely ?
As has been pointed out many times, this type of policy may be comforting to those who may be sympathetic to some of the extreme views, so long as the target is one to whom they would rather not listen. It remains to be seen how popular this policy will prove to be as time passes and more and more of these generally moderate posters are labelled and processed by the "system".
But as they keep reminding you regulars . . its YOUR forum, they are here to do your bidding. It's up to you to decide if the face you wish to show the outside world (of newbies and lurkers) is one of fear-driven fascistic over-control, or one of a confident and educated ability to defend your point of view in a public arena.
If you dont want to be labelled (or viewed) as an extremist cult, perhaps you should quit allowing your "guard dogs" to behave as if they're running one.
But of course, I'm just a whining polly-troll. (Or at least, thats what they want you to think).
Kind Regards
W
-- W0lv3r1n3 (w0lv3r1n3@yahoo.com), November 23, 1999.
Yes, you are a whining polly-troll. Try using less words, then you won't appear to be so whiney.
-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), November 23, 1999.
Try using less words ???Did you really say that ???
I M S O R R Y, A M I S P E A K I N G
T O O F A S T ?? S H A L L I U S E
W O R D S W I T H L E S S
S I L L - A - B U B B L E S F O R Y A ??
Never mind KoS . . i wouldnt want to interrupt your enjoyment of hee- haw or whatever intellectual persuit you're currently engaged in.
W
PS - Si fueras el Rey de Espaqa de verdad, estoy seguro que la gran mayoria del pais, enfrentados con la verguenza de tener un Rey tonto de culo como eres, renunciarian su nacionalidad en favor de ser Andorranos. Menos mal que no lo eres.
-- W0lv3r1n3 (w0lv3r1n3@yahoo.com), November 23, 1999.
dumped thread:Hello to all newcomers to the board,
Andy presents one opinion, while there are many others abound. I'm a "Doomer", though a moderate one.
My opinion is that we will all experience a few glitches, some severe, some not so bad. The point of the matter is the no one knows the extent of the number of areas that needed to be fixed, the quality of the fixes (potential data corruption), how critical are the systems that will have glitches, and the effect the interdependency of the world economy. It is a fact that many other nations will not be as ready for Y2K as the U.S. is (or at least as ready as the press tells us).
With that in mind, I believe it is only prudent to prepare, personally for at least 2 weeks worth of disruptions. Please do your own research though and do what you feel is necessary. I wish you well.
P.S. Please don't take any personal attacks to heart, we're currently infested with a group of irresponsible people who like to bait and insult others. We call these people "Trolls". There are plenty of other people who are willing to sit down and rationally discuss any questions you might have.
Again, I wish you well, and welcome to the board.
-- Deb M. (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com) on November 25, 1999.
Welcome newcomers! This is what Duke University and Medical Center is doing to prepare, as of early this month. (MBadly typed from the Durham, NC, Herald-Sun.)
DUKE SAYS IT'S 99% COMPLIANT
Officials say the other 1% will be fixed; contingency plans intact
by Jennifer Chorpening, The Herald-Sun (Durham)
Duke officials announced Tuesday that both the university and health system are 99 percent Y2K compliant, and that in the next 59 days they expect to fix the last 1 percent.
But just in case, contingency plans involving diesel-fueled generators, stockpiled medications and bottled water are ready.
"We are confident we will not have a serious problem," said Tallman Trask III, Duke's executive vice president. But to keep aware of time passing, and to underscore how little time remains, Trask's own office contains a digital calendar counting down the seconds to New Year's Eve.
The glitch that may have some computers thinking Jan.1 really is the turn of the 19th century has tested Duke's manpo9wer and resources. The university paid $75million for Y2K fixes, most of which went to upgrade computers systems -- but that needed to be done anyway, Trask said. Specific Y2K problems cost the university $19 million, and of that $17 million was for5 the hospitals.
In the health system alone, more than 1,000 computer experts, technicians and engineers have worked for more thanh a year to ferret out lurking Y2K problems.
"We are essentially in as good as shape as we can be," said Michael Israel, vice president and chief of hospitals and clinical facilities for the Duke University Health System, which includes Duke Unversity Hospital, Durham Regional Hospital and Raleigh Community Hospital.
The hospitals will have a command center in place on Dec. 31, staffed by senior administrators, physicians and key staffers.
"We will treat it the same way that we treat a hurricane or ice storm," Israel said. In addition, the hospitals are, hoarding" medications and supplies, to have 5 percent more on hand than normal, Israel said.
Duke University Medical Center has 32 generators in case of power failure, and Duke Hospital and Durham Regional Hospital have top priority for power restoration from Duke Power Co.
More than 20,000 patient-care devices at Duke Hospital have been tested and determined to be Y2K compliant, officials said. This equipment includes diagnostic equipment, intravenous (IV) infusion pumps, respirators, vital sign monitors, heart-lung machines, X-rays and other imaging equipment.
Durham Regional Hospital has been preparing for Y2K since 1994. The hospital has spent $1.2 million on medical equipment replacements and upgrades. In addition, if the power goes out, the hospital has four back-up diesel generators that can power the hospital fort two weeks without refueling.
Trask noted that since the university is on semester break on Jan. 1, Duke administrators will have less to worry about. Students in campus housing will be urged to make alternate housing plans in the event of an emergency. Stufdents living in off-campus dormitories will not be allowed to stay late, beyond Dec. 19, or move in early, before Jan. 10. Fall semester ends Dec. 18 and classes for spring semester begin Jan. 12.
University services should not be interrupted, officials said. Dining services will stockpile a three-week supply of food in storerooms and freezers. In the event of prolonged power failure, the university will bring in freezer trucks. If water systems have problems, the university will bring in truckloads of bottled water.
The Duke Police Department will lead a university command center, opening at 6 p.m. Dec. 31 and staying open as long as necessary. In addition to normal staffing, Duke Police will add 120p police officers and 12 security officers , and another squad will be on standby.
Duke's telephone system, which works independently of outside networks, has bee4n tested and proclaimed Y2K compliant.
Duke spent $42 million upgrading the central administrative computer systems that process student records, employee payroll and benefits, and university finance and purchasing.
Backup payroll checks for employees to be paid Jan. 7 will be printed in mid-December.
Students need not hear a Y2K glitch coming between them and their financial aid. Trask said he has authority from the Board of Trustees to float students temporary loans.
As for outside forces disrupting Duke, Trask said the important things, "water, power and money," have all been researched.
Hospital workers, at least, will have some fun that night. The university has arranged for a nonalcoholic party for on-duty staff.
(Ed's note - Duke purchased Durham Regional only this year.)
Sorry for any typos.
-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), November 03, 1999
-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com) on November 25, 1999.
Personally, I'm not in either camp. My position is this. Y2K may present some problems in itself, but:
If I were China or Russia or both, Y2K offers the best opportunity in this lifetime to destroy the US with out being directly blamed for causing a war. If I were Iraq, or any of the many other middle east groups that hate us, Y2K offers the greatest opportunity to unleash bioweapons in this country, than at any other time. If I were to start another Civil War, y2k would offer the greatest opportunity than ever before. If I were any of the thousands of doomsday loons that live in this country, then y2k offers the greatest opportunity to disrupt everything.
It goes far beyond computer crashes, or losing power for a few days.
-- Rainman (rainman@uh-oh.com) on November 25, 1999.
Andy, thank you for the thoughts. This makes sense to everyone except those so firmly entrenched that they feel the need to play defense, or to edit. What is even more disappointing is that some of the doomleaders are marching their sheep further on. 'No', they say, 'we can see trouble ALL YEAR and for a number of years. Never mind our previous predictions'. And like drones, the camp follows, exchanging recipes for beans, ideas on home defense and the latest news on submachine guns on the way. In terms of y2k, it pays to have a bad memory.
-- Bad Company (johnny@shootingstar.com) on November 25, 1999.
'we can see trouble ALL YEAR and for a number of years.' Uh, and you're gonna argue with that?
-- a (a@a.a) on November 25, 1999.
Guess I'd be clarify the point, 'a'. Prognosticating doom has become a profession, and not a hobby. It must be noteworthy that previous predictions are found to be faulty while new predictions are made with no reference to that faulty history. Hmmm. I can think of one doom leader who has a long history of faulty predictions....usually associated with end of the world, or terrorist activity. And yet, he still maintains a following.
The point is, where does the line of credibility get drawn? When do you pack it in and say that maybe, the doom view of the situation missed the mark and it's time to find a new mentality.
There is always soemthing to fret over. Doom and gloom honchos would like to maintain this 'business' far beyond Januarty 1, 2000 and from the looks of things, PT Barnum was right on target.
Regards
-- Bad Company (johnny@shootingstar.com) on November 25, 1999.
Never trust a kid with a green crayon...
-- Uncle Bob (UNCLB0B@Tminus36&counting.down) on November 25, 1999.
Naughty, naughty, Bad Company, you forgot to mention your three months of preps again.
-- Good Company (Johnny@shiningstar.com) on November 25, 1999.
Sorry, GC. I keep forgetting.
And uh, uncle Bob....it's too early in the morning for schnapps.
Where's Aunt Jane?
-- Bad Company (johnny@shootingstar.com) on November 25, 1999.
-- (continuing@coversations.unlimited), November 25, 1999.
PS - Si fueras el Rey de Espaqa de verdad, estoy seguro que la gran mayoria del pais, enfrentados con la verguenza de tener un Rey tonto de culo como eres, renunciarian su nacionalidad en favor de ser Andorranos. Menos mal que no lo eres.-- W0lv3r1n3 (w0lv3r1n3@yahoo.com), November 23, 1999.
AYYY, Gloton; tengo miedo que no sepas tantos problemas vas a recibir por el rey de espana. El rey no solo tiene el cerebro de una pulga, sino tambien odia el espanol. Interesante, no?
Le da asco cuando alguien habla cualquiera lengua que no es "americana". Ten cuidado.
Sin embargo, gracias por hablar la otra idioma aqui adentro la tierra de Bombas de Tiempo 2000.
Al K.
-- Al K. Lloyd (all@ready.now), November 28, 1999.