Any thoughts on non-lethal shotgun ammo as a precursor to using lethal force in a self defence situation : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) Preparation Forum : One Thread offers 12 ga. rubber buckshot,bean-bag shells,and pepper spray rounds.It would seem that rubber buckshot would afford a valuable escalation of force before using lethal force in a self defence situation.In the legal aftermath of a defence shooting having tried non-lethal means will certianly play a part in ruling the shooting a justifiable homocide.

-- zoobie (, November 19, 1999


Legal aftermath doesn't depend so much on what actually happened but more on what the lawyers and judges can twist.

I would suspect that if you fire a shotgun blast at somebody, they will assume that you are trying to kill them and will return percieved same.

Announcing loudly to somebody that, my first round is non-lethal might not quite have the effect you are looking for.

P.S. Rubber bullets CAN be lethal at short range and they do certainly maim too.

-- Ken Seger (, November 19, 1999.

Zoobie, I have been using okra seed soaked in a strong solution of salt for a couple of days, then allowed to dry. I then reload my own 12 gauge shells with them. I don't know how people will react to them, but stray dogs don't appreciate them, and they don't come back for seconds. I think people would have the same respect for them!. Take care, Walter.

-- Walter Bright (, November 19, 1999.

I hate to sound like one of the "Kill them all and let God sort it out" crowd ;-) but personally I wouldn't even consider non-lethal rounds. If they are not obeying your every command at the sight of a 12 gauge muzzle--you are in big trouble that may require INSTANT incapacitating shooting. That first non-lethal round may be the ONLY round you get to fire.

One of my clients, a reserve police officer, put it this way--some of the more hardened gangbangers just don't show respect when you have a 9 mm trained on them, because they have been shot with a '9' before and survived (or seen their good buddy survive). A 12 gauge, though, has always commanded instant respect. So, if it _doesn't_ command instant respect, they are reckless, or on drugs, and you may only get one shot to save your life.

Even more importantly, when you are the target of criminal attack, it is usually at the time and place of the CRIMINAL'S choosing--to maximize THEIR advantage. Don't have any illusions about the luxury of having time to fire a non-lethal round first--you may--but it may also be a split-second decision reacting in catch-up mode to criminal attack. One shot may be all you get.

Given that you are handicapped by legal and moral constraints that the criminal ignores--don't put another handicap on yourself with non- lethal rounds. Give yourself an edge with body armor, or even more important, training and mental prepartion / role-playing.

Be safe,

Nick ================================================== - Bulletproof Vests for Law-Abiding Civilians - * 1-888-374-7029 ==================================================

-- CONCEALABLE BODY ARMOR (, November 19, 1999.

Yes, by using 00 buckshot you may not kill the attacker(s) with the first shots, thereby leaving the remaining attackers the problem of removal of their injured fellow-felons. On the other hand, being wounded may just make them mad.

-- Mad Monk (, November 19, 1999.

Don't even think about it. In a life threatening situation take all measures necessary. No have measures. That will most likely cause you to loose.

-- anonymous (, November 19, 1999.

Mad Monk, do you recall what Buggs Moran did back in the 20s to insure the demise of his targets, if only wounded. He dipped his bullets in oil of garlic to give them blood poisoning, if just wounded they died a very painful death. We have had some real monsters in our past!. Walter.

-- Walter Bright (, November 20, 1999.

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