www.deltaforce.com offers 12 ga. rubber buckshot,bean-bag shells,and pepper spray rounds.It would seem that rubber buckshot would afford a valuable escalation of force before using lethal force in a self defence situation.In the legal aftermath of a defence shooting having tried non-lethal means will certianly play a part in ruling the shooting a justifiable homocide.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), November 19, 1999

Answers

Don't fergit the rock salt loads...

-- Billy-Boy (Rakkasan@yahoo.com), November 19, 1999.

If someone is desperate enough to invade your home, and you shoot him with ANYTHING non-leathal, my guess is, at best 50-50%, that he might come back-armed. Tough call.

-- CygnusXI (noburnt@toast.net), November 19, 1999.

A Pollies Response--

You can go ahead and shoot them with regular 12 gauge. It would be doom and gloom to assume he will die. Cripe, who are we to prophesy somebody's death? Tin foil hats or not, if the victim doesn't panic he will not die. He must do that one thing.

Just like y2k. If you don't panic, the computers will know that 00 is greater than 99. Just don't panic. That's the key to everything.

-- Larry (cobol.programmer@usa.net), November 19, 1999.

It's sick to try to find a non-lethal alternative for home defence? Were you born a victim?Is my wife exibiting machismo if she defends herself?Do you think self-defence requires an apology?

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), November 19, 1999.

It's important to have a contingency for
non-lethal force. I have an arrow with a
large wooden bead glued on the end. It's
worked with dogs and racoons that thought
that my poultry was their dinner. They never
return.

-- spider (spider0@usa.net), November 19, 1999.

Larry,one need not wait for y2k to be responsibe for the safty of one's loved ones.Last I heard crime exists now.

-- zoobie the nutbag (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), November 19, 1999.

Love your reply Larry. Time for all of us to go out and buy an Acme (tm) handy dandy Mind-Over-Matter-Kit.

The key here is the phrase self defence. If you are justified in using lethal force, use it. If you are not justified in using lethal force, don't use it.

-- Ken Seger (kenseger@earthlink.net), November 19, 1999.

If someone is violent enough to try to attack me, then I have the right to defend myself. It is not my intention to put a minor hurt on someone, my plan is to bring them down permanently. In my self-defense training, we were not trained to inflict a minor wound, we were trained to bring them down never to rise again. If they enter my home there's no other choice for me.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), November 19, 1999.

Zoobie: I would advise STRONGLY against this. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE get Massad Ayoob's book "In the Gravest Extreme" and read everything he has to say about self-defense. He was a police officer in NYC and has trained people in self-defense and weapons training for years. Is considered the leading expert in his field. You can find this book on amazon.com and probably any other on-line book store.

-- preparing (preparing@home.com), November 19, 1999.

the ole punji sticks (shafts of bamboo stuck into the ground with the up-pointed end shaved to a point and coated with feces)lining the bottom of a shallow pit under the welcome mat with a spring loaded trap door sound like too much trouble? Just don't answer the door when they knock...maybe they'll go away.

-- GI Joe (notfunny@all.ya'll), November 19, 1999.

My feeling is, if it's time to use FORCE, it's time to USE it. No second guessing, or "what implement/ammo should I use?" You won't have time for that, in a life-threatening emergency. Grab your guns and SHOOT.

My personal belief is that if it comes down to having to USE A GUN on looters/rioters/etc, we really have reached TEOTWAWKI. I sincerely hope that it doesn't come down to this...

-- Dennis (djolson@cherco.net), November 19, 1999.

preparing,

In Massad Ayoob's book he states:

The "equal force" doctrine require the law-
abiding citizen to respond to attack with little
or no more froce than that which he perceives is
being directed against him.

-- spider (spider0@usa.net), November 19, 1999.

According to the law: When you fire a gun in a confrontation you have used "deadly force". There is no such thing as a "warning shot" either in the air or at the ground. I would imagine that if you shoot non-lethal bullets it would make no difference in the eyes of the law. And anyway, all you are going to do is piss off the person who wants what you have. They will come back when you are asleep and kill you and your family. Or worse. There are two kinds of people who want your "stuff": those who are truely in need and those who have evil intent. You can share with the first, but there is no negotation or sharing with the latter. They simply want anything and everything you have. Your lives have no value to them beyond how they can use you for the moment. The problem we all have is deciding which kind of people we are dealing with every time we meet someone. One mistake in judgment and everyone who depends on you is toast. Possibly the safest way is to treat EVERYONE as an enemy until proven otherwise. That, however, is "the rub". What to do, what to do.................

Just my thoughts. Juniper

-- Juniper (deadlyforce@shoot.com), November 19, 1999.

If you don't shoot to kill, don't shoot.

-- goldbug (goldbug@mint.com), November 19, 1999.

That's force not froce.

-- spider (spider0@usa.net), November 19, 1999.

No warning shots or non-lethal rounds. Did you really need to shoot to protect yourself? If you do shoot, no survivors, then plant 'em (....according to a friendly sheriff north of here).

-- Don Kulha (dkulha@vom.com), November 19, 1999.

Would you mess with a rattlesnake? I didnt think so. Why? because he minds his own business, and if you f--- with him, he'll bite you and you will die.

Best personal defense; be like the rattlesnake. or "speak softly and carry a large calibre automatic".

Dont bring a knife to a gunfight.

-- MegaDude (CWhale67@aol.com), November 19, 1999.

i did not buy it to look at... i cant wait to shoot my first looter!!!

MONGO , AND I AM NOT KIDDING, ITS KILL OR BE KILLED!!

-- mongo (mongo2@prodigy.net), November 19, 1999.

zoobie -- a precursor to lethal force -- you shoot salt or pepper spray, and your opponent shoots a (well-aimed) slug.

megadude -- reminds me of the first "Indiana Jones" movie where some bad guy was going through all the "show of force" martial arts moves with his weapon, whereupon I.J. just pulls out his revolver and blows him away.

-- A (A@AisA.com), November 19, 1999.

Never shoot someone without aim and intent to kill. Shooting to wound is TV and movie BS and "non-lethal" rounds ARE NOT non-lethal when you use them at ranges you would likely have to use them.

Just look at the all-to-often Israeli situation of shooting at Palestinian protestors with rubber bullets and the still end up killing someone. And then there's reason for another protest. (Cycle continues ad infinitum)

These kinds of rounds are meant to be used in riot situations where the shotgun is fired from one hundred yards away or more to disperse a rioting crowd. But when the rubber rounds are used at one-on-one confrontation range, they put holes into people just like regular shotgun rounds.

It's a well-intentioned idea, for sure. But for what might be faced in not too long a time, use the military method. If it's a situation worth a shot, shoot to kill. Otherwise, it's just a Klintoonesque show of force.

There, instead of having a definative outcome things will likely escalate until you ultimately end up shooting to kill someone who's escalated their actions against you. And you'd better hope that when that time comes that you have real rounds in your gun and not rubber bullets.

WW

-- Wildweasel (vtmldm@epix.net), November 19, 1999.

Yes, Spider, that is a very good quote from Ayoob. Now, did you read the REST of it???

Wildweasel basically sums it up.

-- preparing (preparing@home.com), November 19, 1999.

Also, Spider, again referring to Ayoob's quote you use here, what makes you think the threatening person has "non-lethal" ammo? Do you think they are going to shoot you with a rubber bullet? If you are sure they are, then go for the rubber bullets. If you don't know, don't mess with the rubber bullets.

I also second what Juniper said.

-- preparing (preparing@home.com), November 19, 1999.

Well said, WW.

You must assume that your attacker knows you are armed. Therefore, it is highly unlikely that he is unarmed. You must meet force with like or greater force.

I know you are trying to explore less... distasteful courses of action, Zoob, but if it gets to the point where you are being attacked in your home, well, you know what the approved technique is. Use it. And fear not.

Godsp

-- Pinkrock (aphotonboy@aol.com), November 19, 1999.

Bad idea. Shoot to kill if you shoot. Hell, you'll probably miss the first time anyway, which might or might not preclude a second shot. If the sight of a shotgun doesn't work, non-lethal loads won't work either.

Anyway, the key issue isn't your load, it's where your gun is when you need it. Is your gun within arm's length right now? Why not?

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), November 19, 1999.

Never ever point a gun at another human unless you intend to kill him. We are the most dangerous predator on the planet.

-- kozak (kozak@formerusaf.guv), November 19, 1999.

For a good glimpse into what awaits people like Mongo (yeah I know, probably just a polly trolling) read Tunnel in the Sky by Robert Heinlein.

-- Ken Seger (kenseger@earthlink.net), November 20, 1999.

Kozak, that reminds me of a scene in the movie, "The Trigger Effect".

Main character is standing next to his car. His shotgun is in the car. A suspicious looking stranger walks toward him. He picks up the gun and points it at stranger, who seeing this, whips out a handgun and shoots the main character. Stranger cries "dammit why did you have to POINT it at me ! I wasn't gonna hurt you I just wanted to ask you for a ride !" (or something like that).

So please...realize that it is possible to show someone that you are armed, without aiming at them.

-- biker (y2kbiker@hotmail.com), November 20, 1999.

Only point a gun at something you fully intend to shoot.

Never put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to shoot.

Aim at the center of mass of the target.

Shoot twice at the center of target.

Follow up as needed...

Any questions?

Tactical Dog

snarlin' at the neighbor,

The Dog

-- The Dog (DesertDog@-sand.com), November 20, 1999.

Don't tell the police you shot to kill.Tell them if anything that you shot to stop the threat.Better yet,tell them you need a lawyer before saying anything.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), November 20, 1999.

Brothers and Sisters:

All this talk of violence, if someone is in need give it, if they take it, let them. Earth is not our home, we are all just passing through. You have all settled for the lowest common denominator, to truly survive give your life to God.

+PEACE+

-- Father of the Faith (Im not@home here.anyways), November 20, 1999.

As long as no one is trying to make me give my life for their god,we're all in agreement.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), November 20, 1999.