I am struck by how frequently various science fiction books are mentioned and how everyone knows the reference. Is that what connects us doomers/preparers and allows us to think about TEOTWAWKI seriously? Been there, read that--about 50 times--now, this is what we have to do. I started at age ten with Heinline's "Red Planet" and at 55 just discovered Varley's "Steel Beach". Does all this stretching the imagination make us more realistic about the possibilities of Y2K? Pam

-- Pamela (jpjgood@penn.com), November 18, 1999

Answers

Nope, don't read Sci-Fi, don't even watch tele. Just remember the long ago stories of how life was before our progress, plus experienced a few at relatives homes, long ago.

-- Sear Catalog has multiple purpose (Outhouseflys@overme.com), November 18, 1999.

Perhaps because we once read science fiction (or still read it), we are more willing to "think outside the box." We are willing to at least consider problems and situations that are beyond the comprehension of others...

Another factor is that many of us are of an age (I'm also 55 years young) that has allowed us the opportunity to experience some "unusual" situations...floods, earthquakes, storms, etc. Having experienced them for ourselves, we are more willing to believe that they could happen again...and again.

A third factor is that many of us seem to be in technology...and know (again based on personal experience) that technology will fail... After a third of a century in the field, I simply try to be realistic about the expected problems with changes, testing, and implementation. Brooks was right.

Fourth, a lot of us seem to be relatively fundamentalist Christians. But not all, not by a long shot...and I'm not sure why this is also a factor.

But each of the groups can go either toward Polly or "Doomer."

We have a sprinkling of anti-government/conspiracy theory folks. (I suspect that a lot of these postings are not serious...)

-- Mad Monk (madmonk@hawaiian.net), November 18, 1999.

I've been wondering if for some of us TEOTWAWKI isn't what we've expected all our lives, and we're just wondering what took it so long. We've been feeling like we were living on borrowed time, just waiting for TSTHTF. As a little girl in the early sixties I gravitated toward apocalyptic SF. Mom was a nurse on the local civil defense committee, by the time I was 11 I didn't know how to bake a cherry pie but I sure knew how to build a home fallout shelter if needed from the brochures she had around. If the fire siren goes on too long I still get reflexively nervous.

Like some abuse victims who recreate the worlds they knew as normal, are we readying ourselves for some survivalist future partly because that's what we always were emotionally preparing ourselves for as children? I never saw this soccer mom I am now as a potential future, my role model that I wanted to grow up to be was someone like Carol Mshiyeni from Heinlein's _Tunnel in the Sky_.

Important to realize that we are not, however, creating the Y2k disaster, but in some ways may be empowered from it as a by-product. Chance favors the prepared mind, and not being as badly blindsided could help those of us who get it in any potential emergency. Someone last year asked me what will become of us when Y2k hits. My immediate answer that I blurted out was that we will all become more of who we each really are, for good or for ill.

No more scared kids practicing duck and cover. We're grownups now, and whether or not we like what happens, we'll have to step in and deal with it with as much grace, compassion and wit as we can muster.

-- Firemouse (firemouse@fcmail.com), November 18, 1999.

Started with Edgar Rice Burroughs (John Carter & Barsoom) in the 40's. Amazing Stories & Astounding Stories in the 50's. 60's thru 90's everything by Asimov, Clark, Bradbury, Heinlien and many more.

These days I find that most have read Lucifers Hammer, The Stand and in regular fiction...Atlas Shrugged.

Yes, I have noted that over the past two years many posters have made reference to books from the SF genre.

-- rb (ronbanks_2000@yahoo.com), November 18, 1999.

Pamela,

Sorry. I can't stand science fiction. Give me a good documentary or story of personal triumph--now that's entertainment.

As far as stretching the imagination..you nailed it. everyone I know who is a GI has the ability to envision things. Many terribly smart people I know with no imagination cannot figure how a computer problem could effect them and therefore are doing nothing

-- dale (dale@spicreative.com), November 18, 1999.

I've only begun to read Sci Fi fairly recently. My favorites were and still are writers such as Zola.

I had read the book, Nana, by Ed Regis, and the book, Mining The Sky, by John S. Lewis, and realized I ran the risk of future shock over coming events if I didn't start acclimatizing myself to the sci fi. I thought fiction works stretching and opening my mind, and offering mental pictures and visions of sci fi this or that, was a good dose of preventive medicine. I am heck bound and determined not to feel threatened by the coming sci fi lifestyle. I do think it'll be really terrifying to those who are not mentally braced for it, for one thing to know the future is to adjust all of ones self including political stances, and I want that homework behind me. I'm going to plunge into it when my chance comes, have a ball, and not look back. I've already made the personal choice to be a colonist.

-- Paula (chowbabe@pacbell.net), November 18, 1999.

Science Fiction??? Nah...never touch the stuff! Basically a waste of time and intellectual energy. I prefer history and philosophy because they illuminate reality if properly applied. No shot intended at anyone's favorite reading, but I fail to see the value in this space alien/little green guy/eco-nightmare crap. Escapist amusement? That would be about it.

Regards,

Irving

-- Irving (irvingf@myremarq.com), November 18, 1999.

Hmmmm. Probably just a coincidence. I'm a life long scifi reader.. Have a collection of around 2000 books, have read them all some twice. Not many were along the lines of y2k type happenings. A few of course.. But beyond that, what really amazes me about sci fi... is how SO MANY OF THE VARIOUS WRITERS CONCEPTS are becoming reality and not really fiction. --- Its like these people were future dreaming, very scary when you consider the implications. So many similar machines, and other science type facts is being proven as possible in our future or is already becoming real and not fiction. --- Besides, I stopped reading scifi... Y2k is a more scary fiction about to become reality.

-- Lee (imforyou2@hotmail.com), November 18, 1999.

No. I used to read Jane Austen, poetry, history, biographies..... sigh.... Now I read about rice, beans, solar ovens, nuclear reactors, oil refineries, the grid and how the globe is interconnected.

Do I have any regrets? NO! I have learned so much I feel that I have only just opened my eyes. I do hope, however to get back to my other loves.....perhaps reading by candelight?

-- citygirl (citygirl@idirect.com), November 18, 1999.

I dabble in it from time to time, being a fan of Babylon 5, Ray Bradbury, Heinlein, and the Kim Stanley Robinson _Mars_ Trilogy.

-- coprolith (coprolith@fakemail.com), November 18, 1999.

My biggest fear all along has been the extremists helping things fail ala "The Postman" by David Brin. Excellent book. Also H. G. Wells' "Year of the Comet" and Niven & Pournel's "Lucifer's Hammer". I have prepped for a 6. Anything worse is beyond my means and expectations.

-- wondering what (it.is.all@about.com), November 18, 1999.

I used to prefer history and philosophy but they were basically a waste of time and intellectual energy. Then I discovered Sci-Fi.

Always been a sci-fi fan. Lots of useful info in the better works; some of which applies directly to current endevours. They do promote the out-of-box thinking that gives us an alternative perspective.

-- Don Kulha (dkulha@vom.com), November 18, 1999.

I've been a science fiction reader since I was a child. I've read thousands of novels and short stories. I believe SF is the best possible training for dealing with the unknown, as we are doing with Y2K.

-- Steve Heller (stheller@koyote.com), November 19, 1999.

Critical, objective, trained reporter (when I have to be) who also has loved Stranger in a Strange Land, They Walked Like Men, Alas Babylon, Atlas Shrugged, etc. etc. etc. Truth is bigger than the box.

-- (normally@ease.notnow), November 19, 1999.

We had a house fire in 1993 and I lost the list of books I've read that I had kept for years.

The science fiction list had over 300 titles. Does that count?

Course that doesn't count re-reads of the favorites.

-Greybear

-- Got Glasses?

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), November 19, 1999.

--I'm not as well read in sci fi as I'd like to be, but for what it's worth, I think of the authors I've read, Heinlien has consistently nailed it vis a vis "future casting"--look at the big cities now--the "Abandoned Areas"-AA's-, where basically it's wide open misery, crime, the rule of chaos, the "walled enclaves" of the rich with their private security forces, the technological spying of the government, the control of the media, the supremecy of advertising and psychological manipulation, the sanctioned "drugging" of the population with legal drugs, and the police state to regulate "illegal" drugs, the high prison population, the slow steady rise of the international companies and conglomerates who really call the shots politically, the corruption and malfeasance of the elected bodies and their executive branches and the "enforcement" arms and the legal system, the complexities of "laws" that make it almost impossible to exist without breaking any of these "laws", the adoption of "electronic universal money"--it's NAILED and he's been pretty darn close to the actual time-line, too.

---just an observation zog

-- zog (zzoggy@yahoo.com), November 19, 1999.

Pamela,

The link question has bothered me for almost a year, and I'm glad it does others. As for it being into science fiction, a techie, or a religious fantic of sorts that makes a GI. I choose all of the above and only if that includes something that I've noticed from hanging in Y2k chat rooms and forums, and that is. Most of the men GI's are ex-military, not all, but alot. Just enough to make me question if they too noticed that the drill wasn't going right that the team or machine was breaking down. Most of the women GI's I've noticed are those, who have told me in private conversations, that have had terrifying dreams or visions either all their lifes or in the last few years. But, I'm not saying these are the only GI's, or it takes this to be one, just that this was two of the factors I've crossed. At this point in time, I'm leaning toward the notion that it take three or more of the factors covered in the discussion to bring one to become a GI.

-- PatientlyWaiting (InExile@aol.com), November 19, 1999.

There is crapie SF just as in every other form of fiction. None of us made reference to the bug-eyed monster, micky mouse type literature. Of course, we may soon be reading about the y2k-bug monster that ate your (please insert where you live)city!(:-/=)

-- rb (ronbanks-2000@yahoo.com), November 19, 1999.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr (pic), near Monterey, California

No Sci-Fi, here, except for A Wrinkle in Time in sixth grade (just before moving to a new culture for the remainder of my childhood), and Babylon something or other, a short story in an English class anthology. My reading tastes run more to psychology and sociology. However, I have watched quite a few Dystopian movies.

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), November 19, 1999.

Paula, I think you might like Blood Music, by Greg Bear. Nano bugs eat EVERYONE!

Cool quotes:

The guilty are innocent, and the innocent are guilty; Frank Herbert

If you desire the ends you desire means; S.M. Sterling

-- Ocotillo (peeling@out.===), November 19, 1999.

E M Forster foresaw it all in 1909 ...

The Machine Stops

-- Risteard Mac Thomais (uachtaran@ireland.com), November 19, 1999.

Great story. And so true,so true

-- heheho (meomio@mio.mio), November 19, 1999.

A question for PhD theses. I'm a scientist, but not a science fiction reader. (Do like it in the movies, however.) As to GI'ing, certain loosely connected themes that I may have noticed:

1. Possibly non-statistical number of boomers.

2. I think women GI better than men.

Somehow it must come down to how you look at complex systems, but the pattern isn't obvious to me. No one field seems to have an abnormal market share of GI's except for maybe the computer techies (kind of a no brainer.) Many of my physical scientist friends who look like ringers for GI'ing haven't yet. (I must add, however, that a whole lot less people arond the department are openly snickering at this point, and I now get the occasional visit from somebody who has caught the bug a little bit.) Course, if it turns out to be a bump in the road, then the common denominator might be simple: mental instability/ sociopathy.

-- Dave (aaa@aaa.com), November 19, 1999.

"I must add, however, that a whole lot less people around the department are openly snickering at this point..."

I've noticed this too. No one really snickers anymore. Mostly they just don't know what to make of y2k. Anyone serious enough to prepare is keeping his/her mouth shut.

Interesting thread, especially the part about GI's tending to be men who are ex-military & women with bad dreams. I guess that people whose eyes have been opened find it very hard to close them again!

-- a woman with bad (dreams@since.childhood), November 19, 1999.

Thinkin' outside the box....

In order for a book to become a "best seller", it must sell 100,000 copies. That's right, in a country of 260,000,000, only a hundred thousand people need to buy a copy. That works out, roughly, to one book per 2600 people.

The average person buys one book per year.....and it's typically a romance or a western.

Those on the list who buy AND read more than one book annually are ALREADY not-typical citizens.....

ALREADY outside the box.....

Maybe the capacity to READ is the one common link.....

-- Anita Evangelista (ale@townsqr.com), November 19, 1999.

An excellent theory! However, some seem to like sci-fi and some don't. I would suggest an alternate theory though. ALL OF US WHO "GET IT" SEEM TO BE READERS. Reading over a lifetime creates two very important traits necessary to "get-it". 1. Critical thinking. There is nothing better than reading to learns life skills like the ability to "read between the lines" and the ability to think clearly. 2. Imagination. Without imagination NOTHING can be visualized. Now that I think about it. All of the people that I know who get it are voracious readers! Wow! Thanks a lot!

---- -

-- Omega Man (Wishing I were H@ri Seldon.com), November 19, 1999.

Omega Man seems to have hit the nail on the head: voracious readers, nearly all, over a lifetime. I have more books than bookshelves, and could never read enough.

However, always just hated science fiction...didn't even read Buck Rogers in the comics when I was a kid. Yet this year in a book distribution volunteer work I did, I read FOUR "doomsday" novels, something I also detest ordinarily, just before I GI. That seemed more than fortuitous. It was an intuitive deep-down feeling that, "I MUST read these, and NOW." Thankfully, they helped me to foresee what could happen in today's society in a breakdown. Then I read Ed Yourdon's non-fiction...and Got It fast! Thank you, all faithful authors, for your gift to us all.

-- Elaine Seavey (Gods1sheep@aol.com), November 19, 1999.

Yes, I always read sci-fi, In fact, I'm reading one right now! it really helps a person to think! Unlike Tee Vee, which seems to prevent clear thinking...

-- Crono (Crono@timesend.com), November 19, 1999.

Hey sci-fi fans,

How bout we each tell one or two of our all time favorites? I'm alwayus looking for new material to read (I read a LOT).

Just off the top of my head, here are some titles I liked a lot:

Oath of Fealty, Ring World, Lucifer's Hammer; a few others by Larry Niven and xxxxx Pournell (?)

Orange County Trilogy (sorry, in another senior momemt I can't remember the author's name...) This one, and Lucifer's Hammer, will really appeal to those of us who anticipate TEOTWAWKI.

ALK .

-- Al K. Lloyd (all@ready.now), November 19, 1999.

I believe the common link between us is that we've all been hit hard at some time or another by a "negative" from the system. This has caused us to ask why. To find our answer, many of us have searched in books or religions. Few real role models have been around to really ask about the legitimacies of our concerns, and when we did we were labeled as "paranoid." So we then searched in history, sociology, SF or any other general knowledge. We read and read. It seems we found similar answers from different threads: everything is interconnected and giant constructions eventually fail. Towers can only get so tall, before the fall. Of course this is me speaking and may not apply to you. But I think that our early pain, in childhood or whenever, was our warning.

-- Dave (waiting@wilderness.ohm), November 19, 1999.

I think the a common thread og GI's might be a sense of personal responsibility for their own actions. For the religious subset of GI's their religion amplifies the feeling. It seems to me that Pollys on the other hand have a sense of responsibility to the community that involves making sure a third party provides for the needs of the less fortunate.They don't mind making contributions of cash or taxes but really want an outside force to be responsible. The GI is driven by the idea that something bad may happen and he/she is not personaly prepared. the polly is driven by the imperative that the forces of govt/business/etc that he trusts and pays will take care of the problem. Doomers bother the polly at several levels, one of which is unconscious shame at not being personaly engaged. Sort of like a parent saying I only spend an hour a week with the kids but its a quality hour. The greater the inner guilt the louder the exclamations of the quality of the committment.

-- Noone (noone@none.com), November 19, 1999.

I was going to buy that Sci Fi thing, because I love a good Sci Fi (was reading a good new author at Hooters at lunch today), but on reading the thread it's not Sci Fi, its READING that is the common link.

-- ng (cantprovideemail@none.com), November 19, 1999.

I do read science published by the NYT, the WP and the WSJ. Based on my experience this is science fiction. I have read others, but none reach this level of unbeliveablity.

Best wishes,,

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), November 19, 1999.

I have not seen this mentioned yet, but it may have slipped by me in this long thread. Just thought of it. Do we all have urges to build giant mashed potato mountains in our living rooms?

-- (normally@ease.notnow), November 19, 1999.