I am a combat veteran. I volunteered when killing wasnt cool. However I am tired of hearing about U.S. Troops being some mothers son, out there for God and country. Nazis were raised by loving mothers and it didnt mean anything. It doesnt matter where soldiers are from, they obey orders, and they will kill you if ordered, if scared, or if they are just having a bad day and can get away with it. You do not want to be around martial law.

-- goldbug (goldbug@mint.com), November 11, 1999

Answers

Goldbug; Since I am one of the ones who tries to remind people that these kids are our sons and daughters I shall reply. I am a combat veteran. I volunteered even though my lottery number was 226. Every man in my direct lineage including both male and female siblings have served. Soldiers do obey orders absolutly true. Would you have obeyed the orders you fear coming in the future? No doubt some will, no doubt some will refuse. The smart soldiers who refuse will remain silently in place where they can do the most good.

Nobody in their right mind wants to be around martial law or any hostile action, whether it be riots or advancing enemy troops. There is nothing wrong with being reminded, "were martial law to break out the people would find many friends amoung the troups." They would also find many enemys, to be sure.

What would you have us do goldbug, just start shooting? There's a good idea. They come to attempt to keep the peace but we provoke them to violence, oh yeah! Good idea. Just a reminder goldbug, their weapons, communications, and intelligence are better than ours.

If we are to be sick of hearing things, I am truly sick of hearing how bad our system of government has become, from people who did not have the stomache to get off their a** and go to the poles. The whole country is crying in it's beer because the don't approve of the people that were placed in office by approximatly one quater of the registered voters... If these whiners had voted at every opportunity, we would not be where we are today...

"You can fool some of the people all of the time and you can fool all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time." A. Lincoln

So when you have the people you can fool all of the time being the only ones that vote, what do you expect? This problem is one of our own doing.

If martial law is established, and that is still a big if, those troops (the vast majority) will be our sons and daughters whether you like to hear that or not. Some my come from overseas, after all we have established the prescident that it is ok for a coalition of UN troops to go kick butt on a third party whenever they decide they want to... We can thank Bush for that precident, although Bill took it to an art form.

Sorry you don't like hearing this... still necessary that it be said.

-- (...@.......), November 11, 1999.

If you are a veteran, you have my respect and admiration. Where and when did you serve?

And no, I didn't forget about the German army (SS? Nazis? Not most of them). Please accept my apologies, I've clarified this in another thread, but I'll once again point out that I CAN see a difference between the current military in the UK - which is run by men with few political ambitions - and the German army of 1939 after years of propaganda, Hitler Youth and political appointments to its top brass.

-- Colin MacDonald (roborogerborg@yahoo.com), November 11, 1999.

I never said to attack them without provocation. Neither would I say, let them run over you. There could come a time when you have to stand up. We were supperior to the North Vietnamese right? We own this country. Don't give it up IF it comes to that.

-- goldbug (goldbug@mint.com), November 11, 1999.

Goldbug,

Yep, we know you were trained to kill. Look what happened at Kent State.

-- (I Marched @Kent.State), November 11, 1999.

I suggest you re-read the Federalist Papers and the Constitution. The Founding Fathers(TM) were afraid of two things: A standing federal army, and the clergy. The first couple of amendments to the constitution deal with those fears. You have the right to keep and use arms to prevent the "bain of Liberty", a standing Fed. army, from running amok among the citizens of a free Republic. Martial Law imposed on the citizenry of this country would be a blight on the Constitution. Martial law should be opposed with your last breath.

John A. Shaffer, 917-27-16 USN 1965-1971

-- John A. Shaffer (jas11@psu.edu), November 11, 1999.

Goldbug

Everything will be much simpler. Just send white soldiers to black neighborhood, and black soldiers to white ones. Divide hispanincs equally among these two groups. Then, join balck and white and send them to hispanic hood. I believe it is called divide and conquer.

-- Brooklyn (MSIS@cyberdude.com), November 11, 1999.

Goldbug, Today is Veterans Day and reading your post has pissed me off. Combat veteran huh? I'll bet your another wannabe, What are your credentials? Dollar for a dime you were a mail clerk with no sense of history if you served at all. SS = Martial law? Doesn't equate scotty. You won't understand that a national emergency could require the National Guard as does any massive disaster.This doesn't mean their coming for your gold or your ass. So your tired of hearing that the military are some mother's son or daughter.If I remember correctly there were two kinds,mothers sons and mother F****** and I'll bet you came under the latter catagory. Save your bile for the next meeting of the wannabe club,I'm sure you'll find another ignorant dip shit who'll buy into your paranoia . By the way I think my credentials would speak for themselves--Airborne,Ranger,Jungle Expert,Special Forces, Combat Infantry Badge ect.For all the Veterans of the Forum A hearty Thanks!

-- Capt.Bligh (wayout@seabutnotoutofmymind.com), November 11, 1999.

I think it's important that we distinguish between a military police state and the temporary, localized, imposition of martial law. If the power is out, the water is out, and food is not getting into a major metropolitan center, the military need to be there. If you live withing 30 miles of such a place, you will be very glad they are there, heating and feeding and watering people and containing any unrest (assuming they can do so within their own organization).

That said, any national imposition of "martial law" would be nothing less that a wholesale suspension of our Constitution. Note that the Constitution contains no provision for such a "suspension." Note also that the E.O. and P.D.D. plans for martial law contain no provision for the restoration of the democratic republic that they would surely destroy. This would be a very very dangerous, volatile situation, especially if the "emergency" government were to provoke resistance by limiting political and religious speech, indulging in "gun sweeps," confiscating and occupying private property, etc.. At that point, what American, having even a passing familiarity with the founding principles of this Republic, could argue that armed resistance would not be appropriate and entirely justified? My only hope is that responsible persons in government, in the intelligence community, and in the military, are willing to act decisively and vigorously to forestall such an occurance. If they don't, it's pretty clear that we'll tear ourselves apart in a civil war. And, if we are driven to that horrible decision by corrupt and wreckless men, then better we tear ourselves apart, with a hope of a Republic left standing, than allow our beloved nation to become a totalitarian prison.

Understand that a totalitarian state -one in which the people have ceded God-given rights to the authority of a military-empowered bureaucracy - means routine torture, and rape, and the government's unrestricted claim on our lives, our property, our dignity. It means living in a constant state of fear. It means the stifling of our voices, the erasure of history, the distortion of science and culture to serve the aims of an elite. Once it supplants the bare pretense of democracy left to us, it will transform our culture rapidly. It could last for hundreds, even in some form thousands, of years. The burden of our failure to resist it as it arrives - or, as "...@.." points out, our ill-considered stimulation of it by precipitous, violent action before it arrives - could fall upon the shoulders of many generations to come. Right now, our duty is one of awareness, communication, and preparation, not armed conflict.

So stay cool. Wait for it. Educate self and others. Half the battle is giving them enough rope to hang themselves with. The more people become aware of how deeply corrupt our globalist-tool, anti-american government has become, the more potential for resistance exists for them both internally and externally, and that limits their options. If there's an election, vote for Pat Buchanan (like him or not, the only non-globalist candidate. Check the facts; he has been much maligned). If elections are cancelled, keep your powder dry and be ready (as our founders tell us we should always be) to defend your Nation and your Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

-- Dr. Polymorph (theyknowless@thantheythink.com), November 11, 1999.

The only thing the Guard did wrong at Kent State is that they fired over the attacking mob, thereby killing the wrong people. As far as I'm concerned, the Guard should have used hollow points on that "student" trash.

-- Son of SS (S@S.S), November 11, 1999.

Goldbug makes a valid point, and one we should take to heart. Even "good" people can be brainwashed or coerced into taking evil actions. Consider also that those evil actions are much easier to perform when: - there is a large group doing them in concert. - those tasked with the deeds are told it is their patriotic duty to perform them. - doing what is right will meet with swift and often terrible punishment.

I have observed a great deal of defensiveness from both active and retired military when the subject of following orders is brought up. All sodiers are familiar with the UCMJ. It is difficult to obey bad orders, but in all practical terms it is even harder to disobey them. Anyone placed in that position is facing a test of their integrity. I submit that many fail this test, realize they have failed, then enter a phase of denial. When forced to face their personal dichotomy at a later date, they venomously attack those who would dare breach the subject, denouncing them as unpatriotic or worse. That the most common argument is "if you weren't in the military, you wouldn't understand" speaks volumes. On its face their argument is absurd, but it does serve the purpose of obfuscating the real reason for the attack.

-- PKM (.@...), November 11, 1999.

So stay cool. Wait for it. Educate self and others. Half the battle is giving them enough rope to hang themselves with.

Truer words were never spoken. That is my point. Don't take the battle to those who are trying to protect, wait for the suspension of the elections... That is a clear sign.

Oh, yeah, you marched at Kent State. Bull shit. If you did, go join up with Jane and man the NVA's antiaircraft guns... Most of the kids in colleges at that time had no original thoughts of their own.

Kent State was an example of what happens when people fight for NO VALID reason. (opinion)

-- (...@.......), November 11, 1999.

"Kent State was an example of what happens when people fight for NO VALID reason. (opinion)"

Vietnam was an example of what happens when people fight for no valid reason. (opinion)

-- PKM (.@...), November 11, 1999.

Thank you for proving my point, @.

-- PKM (.@...), November 11, 1999.

They are someone's sons and daughters. They are basically out there for God and country. The SS were NOT the German Army. They were Nazi political a**holes in uniforms. The nature of Armies is very different, depending on the culture they were drawn from.

If we have martial law, they are going to want to stand on the corner and look important and not do anything - let the civil authorities take actions.

The only danger in this situation for other than looters and burners and rioters is if some idiot decides to have and armed confrontation. The military is organized, equiped and trained to close on and destroy the enemy. They are not designed to deal with someone with a gun and their panties in a knot over someone with a uniform being on their block. Waco was not a military operation, Janet Reno made that FUBAR.

If you decide to make these sons and daughters your enemy, do not expect a fair fight.

Let 'em stand on the corner and look dangerous. Take 'em some coffee. Ask about their families, they are going to be as worried as you are.

-- ng (cantprovideemail@none.com), November 12, 1999.

uuuhhhhh .....@.... go talk to a few japanese vets from WWII about nanking and the comfort women of Korea and China... (And bataan, and corregidor, and manila, and shanghaietc etc) you will find a lot of "the emperor made me do it" kind of bullshit... denial through and through... so.. the martial virtues.. when perverted extensively into fanatacism produce some really mindless killers. ZIf you think it can't happen to "good ole american boys and girls" under the right circumstances, go watch some more my lai massacre footage. if provoked, (also consider that civilization may be coming down around thier ears) or given ludicrous assignments: "make the trains run! make the riots stop!! Make the famine stop!!" they will crack after a while.

-- jeremiah (braponspdetroit@hotmail.com), November 12, 1999.

How precisely did I prove your point PKM?

-- (...@.......), November 12, 1999.

jer... What are you babbeling about? Your poor examples of situations so unusual that they make national headlines are precisely that and not examples of the general case.

-- (...@.......), November 12, 1999.

The character of the soldiery reflects that of the society from which it is drawn.

-- Chuan (chuan@clearlight.tzu), November 12, 1999.

I will at first welcome troops if they came to my town to maintain public order and ensure that the emergency is properly resolved. Yes they ARE our sons and daughters and brothers and fathers!! Duh!! Maybe their'd be FAR less likelihood of heated incidents if we all operated under the assumption that the troops will be here to help us and can be trusted. If troops and citizens didn't fear each other at the outset--and instead worked together to get stuff back on track-- (fancy that! working together!) we'd be free of y2k-related emergencies in only a matter of months.

However, if I catch wind of something sinister going down--like the jailing of congressmen, mass internment of dissidents without due process, draconian enforcement of sedition laws, and/or the unfair allocation of rations--I don't think I'll be feeling quite so sunshiney anymore. You can bet that I will be participating in peaceful, non- violent, Constitutionally-protected civil disobedience in the style of Gandhi and Martin Luther King. I don't think this will be necessary and I seriously doubt this will be an issue. However it is not impossible and worth a passing thought.

If (some bizarre sci-fi scenario to this effect were actually made manifest and) the military began an organized mutiny against a non- constitutional junta or autocracy ruling from Washington, you better believe I will be on the side of restoring the Constitution.

As a final note, our armed forces have one thing going for them that the Germans DID NOT have. They SWEAR on their LIVES to protect the Constitution's rule of law and its Bill of Rights which is the foundation of our freedom--and ABOVE and beyond any Presidental edict or even any Congressional act.

Thus, in any Constitutional crisis you can imagine that a hefty fraction of service-people will be principled, and will thus follow their conscience based on intense prayer and sound moral reasoning. It might not happen instantly but it would most certainly happen before stuff got too out of hand. You can bet your ass that they would give any would-be neo-fascists a run for their money in any fight.

-- coprolith (coprolith@rocketship.com), November 12, 1999.

Coprolith; Thank you sir for a rational statement of the way things are and the way they need to be handled. It was a shame to start this thread on Veteran's day.

-- (...@.......), November 13, 1999.