I have run into people from all walks of life who are y2k saavy. There isn't anything common to us all other than we all seem to be considerate people. Now I'm wondering if we've been "touched" somehow. (Now don't you all make fun of what I am saying...you know what I mean!) Some people I speak with are curious too. We originally thought that by telling others, they would react the same way we did when we were made aware of y2k's societal consequences. Now, we all know better that only a small percent of the people we mention y2k to move forward mentally on the issue. Most everyone else gets that glassy look in there eyes. Is this mind control. Is there something in the chemtrails that are being sprayed overhead? Something in the water or food we eat (or that other eat). What is it that makes some of us y2k aware and other have a head in the sand attitude. many of the y2kers I know are vegetarians. Are many of you out there vegetarians? What is the common thread among all of us?

-- Marcy Blitz (clark@charm.net), November 10, 1999

Answers

I eat a lot of red meat....I became y2k aware in May of 1998....and have been preparing ever since....

-- mmmm (mmmm@mmmm.com), November 10, 1999.

Vegetarian: Yes

Not sure how this has a bearing on "Getting it" though?

-- matt (whome@somewhere.nz), November 10, 1999.

Vegetarian--Sweetie (part-time) and The Hungarian too.

Try "a developed sense of consequence" for the commonality.

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), November 10, 1999.

It's probably WAY too rash a generalization for me to make, but of the people I've met who GI, they either seem to be of the more or less right-wing suspicious of goverment types, or (more or less) liberal "intellectuals". I myself tend to fall into the latter category. What allows me to comprehend the systemic nature of Y2K is my background in Eastern Philosophy: understanding the nature of interconnectedness. When I was able to see how this applied to Y2K and the overall web of information systems...I really started to freak out about it! I'm a vegtarian, by the way.

-- Ludi (ludi@rollin.com), November 10, 1999.

Marcy, I was wondering the same thing. I've always felt different than the rest of the population my whole life. But maybe everyone feels that way. I've always been a bit more psychic (okay, intuitive for those nonbelievers) and seemed to feel people's thoughts at times and knew in advance when something was going to happen on occasion (yeah, I know, just coincidence, law of averages). So I'm wondering if the connection might be that people you would consider Y2K savy are just more intuitive and in touch with their inner voice than others. Just a thought.

-- Debi (LongTimeLurker@shy.com), November 10, 1999.

I have always been analytical (even as a dweeby kid). I cannot take almost any statement at face value I have to 'follow the thread' or consequences until there is no more to connect. I also have a great imagination and can mentally 'see' stuff that I talk or read about and my imagination lets me know if it is possible or not (I don't know how it works, it just does). In other words, I guess it's out of the BOX.

I know very few GIs, but they seem to be imaginative out of the box types too. Just a thought......

-- Sammie (sammiex0@hotmail.com), November 10, 1999.

Vegetarians.

Won't even do the cannibal thing when hungry ;^)

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), November 10, 1999.

I've been a vegetarian since birth, because my parents were. This Y2K thing and being able to accept it I think is somehow spiritual.

We are the "Chosen Ones". The "Spiritual Ones". We are "Special".

We are a very small precentage of the population that looks deeper into things than the average person. Because we are GI's and have prepared, we will be the ones who will rebuild a world devastated by Y2K. We will prevail, because we have been "Chosen by Our Creator to help save the human race".

I consider myself and my wife very teachable. I read one of Gary North's newsletter advertisements about Y2K and immediately believed it and started planning for Y2k.

I took out all of my retirement savings out of the bank and bought silver Morgan dollars at $6.45 each.

They have increased in value to $9 each and will probably skyrocket next year. A great retirement is waiting for me thanks to Gary North!!!!! THANK YOU GARY NORTH!!!!!!!!

-- freddie (freddie@thefreeloader.com), November 10, 1999.

Marcy --

I would have to guess that the primary difference is that those who are preparing are people who feel some degree of control over their own lives. They feel that they, and they alone, provide whatever security, happiness, 'life', for want of a better word, that they and theirs can aspire to.

Those who don't tend to be people who are 'followers'. These people seem to feel that some mythical 'they' are in control, that 'they' will provide, or should provide, or ought to provide, whatever it is that is required at the moment.

That is about the only common thread I can see. It runs throughout the folks that I have spoken to about the issue.

-- just another (another@engineer.com), November 10, 1999.

We all detest "spin" and can smell it a mile away. A sense of honor is at the forefront. To others we seem "driven," almost in a fanatical sort of way to seek answers, sort of like Richard Dreyfuss in the movie "Close Encounters" as he is hauling mud and sand into his living room to construct a replica of Devils Tower as his family and neighbors watch in disbelief.

Also, I believe we all abhor the Commander-in-Briefs!

-- (snowleopard6@webtv.net), November 10, 1999.

I think the thing that we all have in common is the willingness to consider the unthinkable and take actions based on those considerations.

Most people don't like to think about certain things. Meat processing, food additives, abortion, government conspiricies, miracles, etc. All of these things, when considered, lead a person down a rather scary path of issues to be considered, that might require life changing actions on their part. Y2K is like that.

It's a thing thats easy not to think about, because of where the thoughts lead. It's easy to listen to what the man on the TV says. It's easy to believe that everything will be okay, because then you don't have to do anything.

Thats why we have such a mix. This person looked at the meat packing industry and became a vegetarian, that person looked at government actions and joined a militia. Ultimately, we all hit that moment where we realized "My God, computers are everywhere. If they go down we're screwed!" And took action accordingly.

-- John Ainsworth (ainsje00@wfu.edu), November 10, 1999.

It's been said that about 80% of the population has a hard time "visualizing" something.

For example, as learned in my computer imaging days, if customers/ consumers are making changes to their landscape or remodeling a home, contractors find blueprints don't cut it. Most people can't extrapolate the "big picture" from a few blue lines. They need help in "seeing" what the final result will look like. Hence we have artist renderings and/or photo-realistic images... to "show" them a possible "future."

Think... "a picture is worth a thousand words."

I've also observed, from my teaching days, that peole learn differently.

Some are again, visual, and "get it" through reading. Others require sound... an auditory understanding, for example... live lectures/ video/TV presentations. Still others need to feel the "kinesthetics" of a place or an idea. They are more tactile in getting a concept. For example, you don't "know" what velvet feels like until you actually experience it.

I suspect, then, that most people who "get" Y2K easily, also have an easy time visualizing.

As a close second, the actual "experience" and memory of going through a crisis situation... like participating in the evacuation of a whole town due to incoming forest fires... or living through a big earthquake, etc.... leaves one with a "heightened" sense of what "being prepared..." for the unexpected... can mean. (Or not... for some).

Perhaps our commonality is "we've lived life..." and would like to continue doing so.

;-D

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), November 10, 1999.

I think some kind of a 'call' went out and those who could hear it did. Reminds me sometimes of that movie, Close Encounters of the Third Kind.

Seriously, the people who could hear it were folks who already had a disposition not to buy into our culture's actual religion of materialistic comfort as the highest good. Thus GIs tend to be people with a real religion such as Christianity, or be folks who have left the culture in some way. This includes many from the 'counterculture', off the grid, homeschoolers, mountain people etc. Those who question the unreality of our politics are well represented in both the far right and left! I have met a few older people who got it because they have seen World War II and the Great Depression.

I have been interested that so many GIs I have talked to have said to me that they felt they were born into the world at this time to prepare for these changes. That includes people of all ages.

In general, the mix of wildly divergent views that can coexist with being a GI is pretty amazing. Yes, I know quite a few vegetarians.

-- seraphima (seraphima@aol.com), November 10, 1999.

I think we're more flexible in our thinking and a little smarter than the average bear. We're less subject to peer pressure and herd- following. We are more able to comprehend situations holistically. (With a tip of the hat to Dale Way on that last one.)

-- 5R (fiver2000@yahoo.com), November 10, 1999.

Vegetarian

Perhaps what we have in common is that by the grace of God we had the grace of an open mind and spirit.

-- leslie (***@***.net), November 10, 1999.

My wife is a vegetarian, I will eat meat when in the mood for it away from home. I don't think that is anything of an indicator.

We both identified with *many* of the thigs that others have said above: being willing to follow a train of thought even if it leads someplace quite uncomfortable; being willing to listen and follow our intuition or inner promptings; choosing to NOT unthinkingly believe what big government/business/media tells us; previous crisis situations (travel in the third world helps!).

Of the hundreds of people we have talked to about y2k, the quickest to get it was my 80-year-old but very active mother. A year and a half ago we sat down with her for an hour. At the end of our quite condensed analysis and conclusions she said "So what do we need to do?" and off we went.

I think one thing that ties the GI's together is a willingness to take responsibility for our lives and our actions. Personal responsibility is getting to be quite politically incorrect these days.

Joe

-- Joe (paraflyr@cybernet1.com), November 10, 1999.

It's the ability of some degree of complex thought (the most pertinant), and then unique environmental and personal traits.

When I lived in Orange, CA people at the time had bomb shelters in the backyard. Few but they did exist. For every four blocks or so one family was seriously prepared and mocked terribly.

One of the most interesting things I've noticed which I found alarming is California's reaction, because I grew up in CA and was educated by California, and my parents are Californians. I was taught to duck under my desk in the event of a nuclear war by the Los Angeles City elementay school system. We had drill after drill after drill for different scenarios the most important being on earthquakes. No one naysayed though they never went into much detail.

I was in Arcadia, CA as an adult at the time of the Whittier earthquake. "Prepare for the big one. You will all be on your own and expect looters for your food!" This drilled into us all.

El Nino comes next in mind. Every day it was blasted at us to prepare for El Nino. We were pretty much told if we didn't prepare for El Nino to collapse our grocery store roofs we could expect to roll around the floor in slow, agonizing, torturous death. Even the planned community I am in sent around a notice, "You had better do this people or you will be sorry suckers!" We all, including the community club house, had our roofs repaired or replaced "for El Nino." I was at Von's before the dreaded El Nino and the couple next to me had two carts just brimming with food for survival. (An African American couple by the way for those who keep asking if African Americans prepare.)

(I spent a few years living in Arizona, and due to a rare threatening tornado, it had all the citenzry living in their bathtubs.)

The riot cases are another that come to mind. "You will all be on your own fending off looters, robbers, and killers. No one will be able to help you!" I would overhear people at other tables in restaurants discussing their ammo, guns, and plans of action etc. A number of whom were single mothers.

CA not belting it all out is seemingly new. It's the first time it is looking at danger to my knowledge and not immediately hollering, "If you do not prepare you will die slowly and horribly and then voltures will survive off you!" Wonder of wonders every station isn't taking the populace through many simulated drills, where to stand in our homes, what our very first thought is to be, and telling us we're all food for the voltures. It's even more amazing the school kids aren't marching all around in simulated Y2K drills with many lectures by visiting fireman and so forth.

In a way it's made a number of people prepare like no tomorrow. Things are just a little too out of California norm and ways. You feel an alien presence which is probably Uncle Sam who came whisking in with the big national plan not knowing some states are so different in culture they are pseudo seperate nations. There is a strong alien presence. Yet Y2K is never really denied by the influencial and one can read quietly in a paper here and there one should be prepared for at least 2-3 weeks. The people do talk about it though some are naysayers but never with a glassy eyed look. I think people can feel something heavy is going to come down and due to the alien presence it is involving national security. (The threat of terrorism and nation to nation aggression and all that jazz.)

One fellow, a Hispanic immigrant, who had come to fix my refrigerator told me, "Ah, no one needs to worry." I then found out his house is on the rare block in Corona that has septic tanks. He is also planning to be out of the country with his parents on their little sprawl during a 2-3 week time span over the rollover. His friends and connections are all small business owners in Mexico who go back and forth between the nations.

Like the repair man, the naysayers, when probed, thus far seem to be people with a different reality such as the place is on a septic tank. Mutterings about sewage back-up goes in one ear and out the next. Just not the persons reality. Nothing to relate to in that. Some are people with vast social networks and connections at every turn. (Knows five small farms oneself is welcome at in Mexico and one had saved them each once from a dire mess.) Knows the butcher personally, knows a couple with too many eggs, knows 3 people with wells, all of whom are long term good friends and sure would open that door to themselves. A lot of apartments, planned communities, and homes have swimming pools. There is a lot of local produce and also dairies. There are a lot of invitations by one family member to another going around "Just in case."

Thus I suspect in addition, "Y2K'ers" are people who have had to wing it alone a bit. People connections are all incorrect for such a scenario. Loners. Lifestyles are wrong. The more off the track the bigger the preps or even a move had to be. Bodies or age may be wrong for the scenario of such things as fighting ones way in the store for the 1 apple and survival compensation kicked in. In an peculiar sense they may be people who hit rock bottom in being the most vulnerable. (A number of woman saw on the news, the ethnic Albanian males shoving aside the women and children looking out for number one.)

Y2K is pretty easy to grasp for a number of Californians. I find the population very restive. I think a number are preparing, plan to prepare, or are prepared, and keeping their lips sealed. There is an ilk though that one has to worry about: The For Ferbie People. One wouldn't want to set these people off. They'll be Day Before The Storm People. They are dangerous. They do break down into violence in a heart beat. They're not a folk CA has had to deal with before in my memory. Mothers hurling shopping carts for a toy at each other is a newbie.

I am not a vegetarian.

I have not been served life on a silver platter. I have not been in an area that didn't experience power outages. I know what running out of food or gas before a payday is like, I know what it is to sit staring at the one tea light candle in an outage, I know what being without water for a day unexpectedly is like, I once had a thing for Fiats and faced breakages with no possibility of finding parts, etc. When one pictures these things happening in multiple fashion or for any duration it is intimidating if one has experienced that reality. A brave soldier can do maybe one or two nights starting miserably at a tea candle and then is going to become emotionally hysterical. I'm just not game. I'm not 22 years old, brisk, energetic, and too inexperienced in life to know better. I just can't cope with things like outages at this stage in life and so I'm prepared heavily. I can't cope with shivering in my bed, and having to do things like wrap myself in a coat trying to get warm enough to sleep, not even for one night. The gas was shut off for several days due to a lack at the community I am in. It was sudden and without warning. My microwave oven had broken the day before. I have a gas range and stove. I didn't have anything like electric fry pans. I was becoming emotionally hysterical. After the event was over and I had some bucks I bought a back-up range, replaced the microwave, bought a crock pot, bought an electric skillet, and also a little oven/broiler vowing "never again." This being in my memory I made sure to have a Coleman oven, Coleman toaster etc. I'd have probably prepared at 22 but it would have been very minimal. Some tea candles, water, and canned goods probably following the Red Cross recommendations. At 38? Uh. Uh. My response to even a 3 day outage is "No, thank you," and with my preps I hope not to be impacted by such.

*Couldn't take it came with age. I used to be able to and far more.

-- Paula (chowbabe@pacbell.net), November 10, 1999.

Joe,

"I think one thing that ties the GI's together is a willingness to take responsibility for our lives and our actions. Personal responsibility is getting to be quite politically incorrect these days."

I think Joe says it all.

-- Dian (bdp@accessunited.com), November 10, 1999.

Hey Joe,

I was the proverbial 'black sheep' of my clan, 'Marching to the beat of a different drummer' as my Grandma used to say. Born into a Liberal Democrat blue blood family of College Educators, (M+D both holding PhD's)and expected to do the same. Blew their minds when I registered Republican at 18, and dropped out of college at 21 in my senior year to Join the Army. Spend ten years doing that, and learned firsthand what kind of lies are propagated for "the good of the people." I'd say that the one thing that has guided my life, however, more than anything, is a thing I refer to as 'The Vibe.' I don't claim esp, nor do I really belive in it. But the proverbial 'little' voice' that we all have telling us right from wrong has been the very foundation of my belief system and lifestyle. Laugh or flame me if you must, but it's true. Despite all of my doubts, (mostly implanted by the DGIs in my life)I perservered and have almost completed my preps now. 51 and a wakeup now....

-- Billy Boy (Rakkasan@Yahoo.com), November 10, 1999.

Just thought I'd weigh in to this discussion as a vegetarian liberal who GI in the summer of 1998...

-- Libby Alexander (libbyalex@aol.com), November 10, 1999.

I and my daughte areboth vegetarians, but I don'tthink that is the common factor. We are individualists. We're writers, artists, have our own company. Cannot stand to work for anyone else though we work longer and harder for less. Still have a sense of satisfaction for wht we accomplish. We are also concerned about others and have great empathy. Could this be it? As people are saying, "Encounters". On another note about GI, we are moving to the country where we can be self sustaining and hopefully away from most terriorist activities should they occur. In moving, I went into the post office to put in our change of address. The clerk there, whom I deal with on a daily basis business-wise, looked me in the eye and said, "Getting out. I wish I could too." It was the inflection that let me know he was GI. Then went to town police dept. to get a permit to park the moving truck in front of the house. The lady cop there (and we live in so called tropical paradise), also gave me that "secret" between us look and said, "Leaving for the country, smart girl." Two people with ties to government. But both times said as if it were something of a secret, but they knew that I kn

-- d.j.phillips (gardengal@land.com), November 10, 1999.

I eat meat, drink whiskey, smoke cigarettes and chase women when I can find the energy and a slow woman.

I learned to distrust government years ago. In my police career I have been involved in many "High Power" and sensitive investigations. At the end of each meeting with TPTB the topic was, "Now, what do we tell the press?" It was never the whole truth and often it was a total lie. Causing panic or bad press was always uppermost in the brasse's agenda. When I learned of y2k, and noticed that there was no declarations from our political leadership, I quickly suspected the same kind of BS was going on.

Being realistic, if there was nothing too it, every politico in the country would be on the tube telling us that without exception there was nothing to worry about. All I hear is mealy mouthed mumbling about being "ready" and that all is "under control" Now they are even telling us NOW, that if we MUST prepare, do it early so as not to cause shortages.

I know nothing about computer science. I do know how buerocrats think and act and I am scared.

Bill in South Carolina

-- Bill Solorzano (notaclue@webtv.net), November 10, 1999.

We aren't afraid to use critical thinking skills.

-- Deb M. (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), November 10, 1999.

I have two statements re this thread:

1. Its being responsible for self (includes family)

2. Where you will be next year is dependent upon where you have been.

Taz...looking at things from an old lady's prespective.

-- Taz (Taz@aol.com), November 10, 1999.

We are meat eaters, and I can't understand vegetarians. :-) My husband and I, and a friend of mine who GI all came from families who went through hard times. We remember what it's like to do without. We're also individuals, the three of us, we think for ourselves. I seem to fit into 90% of what's been said on the thread above.

One thing I found at the NJ Gettogether...we all listen to talk radio, and we all seemed to be right wing. I also believe there is genetics at work here...an inborn survival instinct, the same way a Border Collie "knows" to herd a sheep. It's something that's been diluted out of most,..but here and there,..a strand remains.

-- kritter (kritter@adelphia.net), November 10, 1999.

I agree with Bill Boy, except I use to call it something like 'The Force'... Everyone hears voices, some only through their ears (DGI's), others in their heads (got Thorazine??) and others in their heart. Everyone calls this the 'little voice', but in reality, this is really a 'Big Voice' for those who hear and pay attention. Even before Y2K and all the GI, DGI, DWGI labels, I saw the world as basically 2 types of people, the Clued and the Clueless. I have used the word Faith and Belief in other posts I have made, I think of these terms as the Total and Implicit acceptance of that Little (Big) Voice...

-- BH (bh_silentvoice@hotmail.com), November 10, 1999.

For what this is worth.... as a child, I was tested and have an IQ of almost genius range. I "got it" erlier this year. I am sooo frustrated with the people I work with. I do not tell anyone about my IQ. I live a normal life and work at a normal, office-type, job. NO ONE at my work-place gets it?????? I think it has a lot to do with what some of your posts stated.... an ability to visualize and "go there" in your mind to a place that may be uncomfortable and accepting that this could be your reality. It is soooo sad that the "regular" guy can't. Guess that is why the Gov't wroks so well.

Just thoughts, by the way, I eat meat.

Donna

-- Donna (Donnaeli@yahoo.com), November 10, 1999.

We are listening for our still, small inner truth.

-- snooze button (alarmclock_2000@yahoo.com), November 10, 1999.

Could this be the voice you hear?

(Psa 95:7 KJV) "For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,"

(Psa 95:8 KJV) "Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:"

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), November 10, 1999.

The only thing I can see in common is strong opinions and a dissatisfaction with the status quo. Most doomers (I mean this without any disrespect to the beliefs of these groups) seem to be right and left wingers, paranoids, survivalists, god fearers and/or libertarians.

I'll illustrate that with a counter-example. I'm a developer who has worked on Y2K issues. Everything that I have seen first hand, and everything that I know about software and hardware engineers and management tells me that there is no way, no way at all, that Y2K is going to be "just a bump in the road". But I only have a two week stock. The reason, I think, is that I'm happy with the status quo. I just don't want to believe. :(

More power to those with a better imaginaton than me. ;)

-- Colin MacDonald (roborogerborg@yahoo.com), November 10, 1999.

I think the first thing I want to say is congratulations to Ed Yourdon and everyone else on this forum for not being a wimp.

I have a BA Math and a BA Psychology. I am not afraid of complexity and have dealt with it quite a bit. I don't think you can say that for most people. When I was in elementary school, they tested my abstract reasoning skills and I was in the 99th percentile. I have won a couple of awards in mathematics. Plus, being a computer programmer, I see what goes on. I really don't like to boast but I felt I should state the facts at least once.

-- Amy Leone (leoneamy@aol.com), November 10, 1999.

It seems that not even the reasons we GI'ed are in common. Some from experience, some from spirituality, some from mistrust and some from a practical vision. Or all of the above, of varying degrees?

I take time for myself and my interests, but I always try to make choices that benefit my child. He is the most unique and special person I know. He must live with my "mistakes and decisions" daily, but not preparing was never an option.

So how do my reasons make us common? I think because doing the best we can, whatever the task, is a given. How can this be proven? Are any of us just "going through the motions of preparing?". No, we can feel the urgency, we can see the deadline, and we are doing the best we can.

I suspect that come the second week of January, 2000, and the ifastructure is still intact, we shall all switch gears from physical preps to financial preps, for the economic fallout, that will surely occur.

Whatever our motives, we have made ourselves less open for negitive influences on our lives; and we will weigh more heavily how actions across the street or around the world effect us.

-- Lilly (homesteader145@yahoo.com), November 10, 1999.

In my humble opinion I believe that most of the people that post to this board have the ability to see the trees and the forest. I believe that most have extrodinary critical thinking skills and higher than average I.Q's. I would include in this perception our ability to listen to our instincts and act upon them. I believe our experiences through life allow us to question the status quo. We are independent thinkers, confident in ourselves and our decisions and not to concerned about what others think of us.

-- IMHO (karlacalif@aol.com), November 10, 1999.

And also in my HO, some of us should not type before their first cup of coffee. Sorry about the typo's.

-- can'ttypebeforecoffee (karlacalif@aol.com), November 10, 1999.

Or maybe...

Great Spirit Grandfather Hear my words For wisdom So that I may open my ears And hear all that is good Around me. For I am humble Before you. I seek the strength To continue on this path That I travel on before you In a most Sacred manner.

-- BH (bh_silentvoice@hotmail.com), November 10, 1999.

There are many similarities running through this thread in those GIs posting, and I share them with you all. I was a child prodigy and always considered "different" by my own family and my peers. I could see a situation and see how it could be improved, could see the interconnectedness of the parts to the whole, and had what the child psychologist who tested me called an extraordinary ability to visualize and project, and what he called a great imagination therefore. When I wrote stories for second and third grades, at first the teachers didn't believe that I had really written them myself because children aren't supposed to be able to conceptualize that way. It took a kindly principal, to whose office I was taken angrily by the teacher, to report that I'd supposedly had someone else write a story, who probed my phraseology and then took me back to my classroom and before everyone who'd seen me shamed, declared, "This girl did write this story!" angrily at the teacher.

This capacity also enabled me at a very early age, in an extended family household where there were a wide variety of religious, and in my father's case, atheistic beliefs, to sense and know the Presence of God in the universe and my life, and I was devout beyond the experience of my family to the point that it made them uncomfortable...truly. In my teens, when they "got it" and began a relationship with God, they thanked me profusely and apologized for having teased and almost harrassed me about my devotion.

As an adult I have always engaged in what some have termed avant garde activities, such as fighting for the right of people of color to live in my neighborhood, worship at my church, and so forth. And was asked to be on the air sharing my views because as a clergy wife in a day and age when it wasn't being done, I tried to get our congregation out of their comfortable pews and out into society bringing help and hope to children who needed tutors after school, hungry and needy people who needed clothing, etc. It just wasn't being done back then. I never cared when our denominational leader was unhappy with me at conventions and I spoke out for the principles upon which we were founded, and have always spoken out firmly but in love against societal abuses.

I think these qualities are what made me GI instantly this year. No one in my circles had said a word to me about Y2K. I hadn't read anything about it. Only heard a couple of mild jokes about it. Didn't have internet access yet. But an "alarm bell" went off in my head that told me I had better begin to read about it and find out all that I could about the implications. Crown Books didn't have a single book about it or even seem to know what I was talking about when I looked there in the early months of '99. I was busy job-hunting and trying to survive unemployment simultaneously, so didn't pursue it further. Then I began working on 3/28 and by 5/31 had Ed Yourdon's book from Borders Books. The recognition of the truth of the problems ahead was immediate, as was my intense research, now via the internet and via every book I could lay my hands on. The preps began instantly.

For this whatever-it-is that the Lord gave to me to discern events, I am very grateful beyond words.

P.S. I've always eaten meat with gusto.

-- Elaine Seavey (Gods1sheep@aol.com), November 10, 1999.

Marcy,

1) We are the curious type, not because we just "want to know" but because we fear the unknown.

2) Due to whatever reason, each of us has both the time and resources to research this subject.

3) Some of us are the paranoid type. We have been "burned" at one time or another by someone lying to us about something that hurt us deeply and emotionally.

4) Jealousy would also be one of our common traits, at least in our younger days.

5) Most of us have been divorced? (I have.)

6) We want control over our lives. Doesn't mean we want to control other people's lives, just our own.

7) We wouldn't be successful bosses, we would be the thorn in the bosses side.

8) We don't like the system. We want it to fail yet we probably couldn't come up with a better one if it did due to our lack of group leadership abilities.

9) We talk back to the TV.

10) We think we know what's best yet are willing to allow everyone to do their own thing saying, "You're going to be sorry."

11) We are either VERY conservative or VERY liberal. (I find this the most interesting aspect.)

12) Buying into Y2K as "doomers" is a no-lose position, so we think.

However, should Y2K be a non-event, we will be ridiculed and become depressed. We will be edgy. We will wonder if "they" are laughing at us behind our backs. Our self-esteem will fall. We will eat more, smoke more, drink more, curse more and spend more money than we should. We will feel betrayed by our own lack of ability to correctly evaluate current events. We will become even more withdrawn from our families and society. We will change jobs (fired or quit). We will move to new cities. We won't go to family reunions.

If Y2K is painful, we will be reassured of our ability to correctly evaluate current events. Being "correct" will be bittersweet. At first, we will be neighborhood heros. Later, as it worsens, some of us will be attacked by those same neighbors. Some of us will be killed, some of us will kill.

And should life return to "normal" at some point in the future, we'll all be labeled a Know It ALL, in the short term. Long term, our future generations will be told stories about how we saved the family. As a fitting legacy, we will go down in family history as being the "wise ones".

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), November 10, 1999.

I am a member of Mensa, the High I.Q. Society. Mensa publishes a monthly mag called "The Mensa Bulletin". From what is published in that mag they are DGI.

The members I have talked to in my local area are all DGI. So I think very high intelligence is not a factor in being GI. Why do I GI and not most Mensans? I think it is because I had to be on my own and had to learn common sense to survive.

I didn't know what my IQ is until I was in my forties. Until then I just thought I was "different". So I guess it is life experience. School of hard knocks and some psychic ability. Absolutely not a vegetarian.

-- Mr. Pinochle (pinochledd@aol.com), November 10, 1999.

I'm not sure there is one set of characteristics. I would suggest, however, that much may have to do with the ability to embrace uncertainty, to be in the space that is "not knowing". Whether or not this is the pervue of the younger or the older, the religious or the secular, the exceptionally bright or the average is unclear to me. More uncertainty I'm willing to sit with at this moment.

The number of threads posted in the last couple of days seeking definitions, (doomer, polly, most loved, most hated, etc.,) seem to me to point up an observable human desire to wrap things neatly, and ignore all that untidy uncertainty stuff. Just a thought or two,...

Breathing is.

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), November 10, 1999.

While those who "Get It" probably don't all have any particular trait in common, there are numerous attributes most of them share:

1) The term "Get It" precludes further understanding. After all, if you already "get it", what else is there to learn? Their goal is to reinforce their opinions, never to question them (see #9)

2) They cling to a single interpretation of a complex issue.

3) They regard those with other viewpoints as "the enemy"

4) They cannot tolerate uncertainty, so they impose black and white thinking onto broad spectra

5) They defend their position by lashing out against the people who disagree, without ever really addressing the points of disagreement.

6) They are not in any position of influence or authority. On their jobs, nobody reports to them.

7) They are deeply suspicious of the forces that influence their lives, and address these forces with fear and hatred rather than analysis.

8) They apply an extreme double standard, condemning behavior among the "bad guys" that they admire (in even more virulent form) from the "good guys"

9) They use their conclusions to determine their evidence, rather than vice versa

10) Their thinking substitutes slogans for logic

Finally, I emphasize that these similarities don't apply to those making a genuine effort to understand the issues. This is a description of the "Milniacs". You know who you are.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), November 10, 1999.

Amen, Donna...without implying a specific religious contect to that!

seraphima, I, too, have had a sense of wonder that there is a feeling akin to that sensed by the GI's in the movie "Close Encounters"!

Vegetarian, yes, but that doesn't seem to address the points that Diane and Donna point to: the ability to visualize, intelligently, to project, logically, and to live in the space of uncertainty.

Add to that the sense of RESPONSIBILITY to protect those we cherish, as Lilly so eloquently says, and you have a recipe for a GI.

-- Sara Nealy (keithn@aloha.net), November 10, 1999.

2 years ago I wrote a piece about my frustration in life with a whole world of people who don't "get it"...and I did not mean getting it about Y2K. So my questions I suppose remain: What do you get? How much do you investigate all that is passed on to you as "real" and "important"....It is relatively easy to expound on Y2K and infrastructure. The other is more difficult, and is telling as to your ability to live with uncertainty, live creatively, live with effort toward consciousness. While my house is prepared for emergencies (Y2K and earthquakes among them), I don't cotten with the whole GI, DGI business....dichotomizing, a waste of my energy and my moments. Of course some people don't "get" that, but they pay their money and take their chances accordingly, as I do. I just can't help thinking about all that might be created and done were not so much talent and energy expended in labelling and pigeonholing.

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), November 10, 1999.

Sara,...."amen" comments understood, thanks.

I love language...compare the following: "yea, yea, it shall be so" with "same as it ever was,...same as it ever was".

:-)

It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood, a beautiful day for a neighbor...Would you be mine,..could you be mine. --She in the Sheet, upon the hilltop,...

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), November 10, 1999.

Mr. Flint, I have more than one comment on your reasonably put post...but this one you have to explain to me: They are not in any position of influence or authority.

What in the heck do you mean by that? Compared to who, what? Define influence and authority? And to what influences and authorities are you enthrall to?

For goodness' sake,...

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), November 10, 1999.

And then there's this one, which is, after the fact, diametrically opposite of what I posted about embracing uncertainty...

4) They cannot tolerate uncertainty, so they impose black and white thinking onto broad spectra

What uncertainties are you tolerating? Enumerate, if you will.

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), November 10, 1999.

Donna,

When you wrote "I would suggest, however, that much may have to do with the ability to embrace uncertainty, to be in the space that is 'not knowing'", it reminded me of something Flint wrote recently about people being much more concerned with being 'certain' than being 'accurate'.

Sorry Flint, I know you wrote it with eloquence - I just hope I caught the gist. I think it's a valid observation on both your parts.

Flint,

You're painting with a broad brush today, fella. I'm not so sure about #6 either.

-- flora (***@__._), November 10, 1999.

Flint, please buy a tighter bra, your brains are flopping around, and if you check the stores there are things to ease that time of the month. Much easier to think when you aren't all bloated up on your own ego.

-- Mr. Pinochle (pinochledd@aol.com), November 10, 1999.

Actually I have problems with Numbers 2-10 as to gross generalization, but I was gonna go at them one at a time, in order of irk-value.

My comment, "reasonably put post", refers to form rather than content...We are still waiting for the Latvian judge's score....

Hi Flora...good to see you out and about! (((flora)))

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), November 10, 1999.

Mr. Pinochle,

Funny you should mention Mensa and their DGI status. As a member, I get the Los Angeles Mensa bulletin and they're just as out of touch as the nationals. (Los Angeles Mensa - is that an oxymoron?) I guess hi IQ doesn't necessarily = common sense. Mensans I've met at local gatherings seem to be very keen on narrow-focus topics, like certain movies or hobbies. Not so interested in the "big picture." I don't talk about Y2k. They'll figure it out soon enough.

-- (fiver2000@yahoo.com), November 10, 1999.

Mr. Pinochle:

A great example of "When you can't answer the substance, attack the messenger." I hope you realize you have provided a graphic example of my points #3 and #5. Thank you.

Donna:

Thanks for addressing the substance a bit. I am not in the thrall of any particular authorities, just noting that some people with public reputations are leaving the lifeboat, and no new notables are climbing in. As for the people here, I pointed out that few of them have anybody reporting to them on the job. The general attitude displayed here is indistinguishable from the attude of privates toward officers in the military.

As for uncertainty, be honest now. How much is your opinion of y2k subject to change? How many people here can you picture admitting "gee, maybe it's not as bad as I thought" when faced with good news? Are you kidding? Anyone who posts anything even containing good news is accused of being a hypocrite and painting an "unbalanced" picture! I firmly believe that if nothing much happens, many here will comb the net for every little problem of any kind they can find, and point to it as "proof" they were right! From my perspective, not being 'certain' whether the future will be catastrophic or just really really awful hardly counts.

As for generalizations, of course they are. We are looking for general rubrics here, since people are all different individuals. Not all the "Milniacs" fit every category; there are always exceptions.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), November 10, 1999.

Flint's post makes clear one thing: Those darn DGI's just haven't a clue about us! Some of what he says applies to me, some doesn't, as I am sure is the case with ALL of us. The fact he thinks he's got IT figured out worries me a bit. I don't like being put in a basket and labeled as anything.

Just so you know, I am a liberal (I'm not even mad at the Prez -- a little disappointed maybe). He was and remains better than the alternatives. I LOVE meat! I am a pacifist, but am armimg myself nonetheless. My wife, who is GI too, thank goodness, and I are well stocked, leaning a bit too much to the gourmet side. That is, not enough essentials and basics like grain, rice, beans etc. We plan to remedy that, at least a little. I'm smarter than the average bear and have never ceased to be amazed at the thoughtless indifference to the things which matter displayed by the public at large. I think the one thing we have most in common is the obvious -- we are not easily led, anywhere, by anyone!

Good luck, all...

Ed

-- Ed (efinn@hopeimre.ady), November 10, 1999.

Ed:

The fact that you can see *any* of what I wrote applying to you is greatly to your credit. Very few people can see any truth at all in an unflattering description, however accurate it may be.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), November 10, 1999.

Mr. Flint,

You have indicated that you feel that many GI's don't want to hear good news. Well, I would! If you could provide me with good hard data I would love it. I have struggled with this Y2K thing for a year and a half now and I still cannot bring myself to accept the TEOTWAKI bit. I know logically that it could happen but the pain and suffering that it would bring is difficult to accept.

However, no one has been able to show real proof of either good news or bad news. We are all being left to "think for ourselves" and some people just don't want to do that. I do, however, still run my life the way I think best and will continue to do so. That may be why I am a Preparer not a doomer. The uncertainty of the available information is causing most of the problems between GI and DGI.

Until better proof is offered I am a preparer.

(by the way I am also a 32 year veteran of the IT and Process Control computer world. I can't get any good info either.)

wally wallman

-- wally wallman (wally_yllaw@hotmail.com), November 10, 1999.

wally:

Your points are well taken. You might be interested in my reply to Stan Faryna's thread to Decker, where I spoke of the fractal nature of our information -- it's equally unclear at *any* level of detail.

My interpretation of what I've read here is that it's not so much the case that "GI's" don't want to hear good news, as that they've tuned it out and can't hear it. Those who present good news on this forum are dismissed as trolls, shills, disinformation agents, or victims of "media propaganda." This attitude militates against the possibility of giving good news any serious consideration, rendering them effectively deaf to well over half of what's written about y2k.

Yes, we're severely handicapped because almost none of our news is hard data, good or bad. Nothing is ultimately verifiable, everything is speculative. So I think the only way to really "get it" is to make a decision, *any* decision, and support it by careful interpretation of carefully sifted material. Which almost guarantees that you cannot "get it".

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), November 10, 1999.

As for the people here, I pointed out that few of them have anybody reporting to them on the job. The general attitude displayed here is indistinguishable from the attude of privates toward officers in the military.

But what does that imply to you...? Are you a lover of hierarchy, authority...it would help me to understand if you would be more specific.

How much is your opinion of y2k subject to change?

Actually, I've been a "world in a handbasket" watcher for at about 20 years...totally unrelated to Y2K. My opinion about the fluctuating handbasket status of the world is unchanged significantly by the addition of Y2K. Public opinion means squat to me, besides that.

Did you ammend your gross generalizations?...I'll go back and check. I appreciate the civil discussion, in the meantime.

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), November 10, 1999.

Flint,

You and I are walking through the desert. We happen upon a glass of water. You eye it and say, "The glass is half full." I respond, "Looks half empty to me." We argue the point until I suddenly pick up the glass and drink the water down. Astonished, you shout, "What Did You Do That For???" I replied, "You're so sure the glass was half full, stick around until your half shows up!"

Flint, stick around until Y2K shows up. Same difference.

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), November 10, 1999.

Mr. Flint,

Thanks for sharing your opinions regarding the lack of information. I think that we both agree that using our " common " sense (each person is different of course) is what we should be doing. I am preparing because my analysis of the problem is weighted heavily by the lack of information available.

Thanks again and have a good one.

wally wallman

-- wally wallman (wally_yllaw@hotmail.com), November 10, 1999.

I tear vegetables to pieces with my teeth; I stab them with forks and slice them with knives; flesh fighting is sustainedly bloody, disgusting and delicious.

-- Randolph (dinosaur@williams-net.com), November 10, 1999.

And furthermore: From my perspective, not being 'certain' whether the future will be catastrophic or just really really awful hardly counts.

Really? How DO you manage to separate it all out...? Hardly counts? What planet do you you live on? I really want to understand, Flint...I'm not just being facetious....'splain it to me as if I was a 5 year old...

Then this: We are looking for general rubrics here, General rubrics work great for 9th grade forensics, Flint...not here...quit this baloney. Quit the gross generalizations, quit mixing correlation with causation...just stop....Breathe...at the end of the day your opinion and mine matter not...

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), November 10, 1999.

Donna:

Read what I said about unflattering descriptions. Read this thread. People are generalizing that "we are all smarter than average" and every one nods in agreement. Yet that's at *least* a gross generalization. But you don't mind that one, because it's flattering. Or "we are all savvy". Yep, another good one, no complaints about that either. Even generalizations with clear exceptions (like vegetarian, or conservative) elicit no criticisms from you.

Ah, but *unpleasant* generalizations, now, those aren't acceptable because they're too *general*! Hee Haw! You should go visit a "school for the mentally impaired" (or whatever they call nuthouses these days). You will find the inmates (oops, 'clients') may disagree about most everything, but they all agree on one thing -- they are *not nuts*. It's all those blind people outside who can't see the obvious truth!

I stand by my description as a general characterization. I consider it largely applicable to a minority of posters here, and I said that plainly.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), November 10, 1999.

Flint, at least you use reasonable words to make unreasonable statements.

I haven't read the demographics on internet access, but I would make hefty bets that almost all who have access to this BB are above average intelligence, above average income and if they have found it, they're probably above average curiousity or determination, too.

So, the statement that GI's in general have higher IQ's may not be true, but it is pretty sure to be true of those here. Since this is where there's the largest concentration of GI's that I know of, it may even be true in general.

I personally don't consider myself a doomer, although I have more trouble understanding how we can have less than a recession than I do understanding how our society can go down the tubes.

But GI to me means being unwilling to take the chance of a mere recession. To look at the options clearly and choose the one that is best to live with. So, Flint, I suppose by my standards, you're a GI, too :-) Welcome to the asylum

-- Tricia the Canuck (tricia_canuck@hotmail.com), November 10, 1999.

The DGI's I know are DWGI's. They are DWGI about everything. I call them "The It Can't Happen Here Crowd".

My observation about them is that they refuse to consider possibilities other than the common thinking, because they are afraid to be simultaneously in the minority and wrong.

So I would say that what GI's have in common is a willingness to be both in the minority and wrong, so long as they have the opportunity to examine the facts and make up their own minds (which they enjoy doing).

-- GA Russell (ga.russell@usa.net), November 10, 1999.

Flint,

I found your post with your "list" of doomer traits to be simplistic and insulting in its simplistity. Anyone who has been reading posts on this forum for very long should have recognized the diversity of personalities represented by their postings. That you have not is shown by your list. You have your opinion and no matter what you haven't changed in the months I have been reading here.

My reply to you was an attempt at sarcasm. Your answer was another knee jerk reaction: I disagreed so I consider you an enemy. What kind of ego trip are you on? Any enemies I would have would be the of much more than an juvenile post. For God's sake, why would you be my enemy?

In the months I have been lurking here your opinion doesn't seem to have changed at all. You aren't exactly a polly or a troll. All you do is nit pick other peoples research and send snide barbs at people whose only sin is having an opinion honestly stated.

You seem to have some good arguments but all you are basically saying is " You guys are all sick! And wrong!"

You have admitted that no one can know what is going to happen. That all is opinion at this time. So one side will be wrong or more wrong than the pther side. Why the attacks? Why the use of argument to change people instead of digging up new facts?

Your use of language indicates an education but why waste a potentually good mind the way you are? So please state your opinions, let us have our laugh, and go away without your attacks and pointless diatrades. Thnk you.

-- Mr. Pinochle (pinochledd@aol.com), November 11, 1999.

Sorry for the many misspellings but it is late and my two typing fingers are tired.

-- Mr. Pinochle (pinochledd@aol.com), November 11, 1999.

Flint,

Wow, definitely a broad brush! Throwing cold water on our warm fuzzy little feel-good party, hmmm? Perhaps an accurate analysis of a few of the folks you have crossed keyboards with, but extremely inaccurate about most others, as is any judgement about any large group of people. From what I have read of your posts you are intelligent enough to know that, which makes this one rather trollish. But what the heck, I'll play along.

I doubt most of us believe that we are "special" or "chosen" or even more "spiritual" than most but that's my opinion with the bias of my own experience. What my family, and my friends who are GIs, "get" is the *POSSIBILITY* that things MAY go badly. And we see the potential benefit of being prepared as best we can. A generation ago, or maybe even five years ago, this would have been seen as merely being mature and responsible.

Re your #1 (paraphrased)...nothing else to get... we just haven't seen enough hard evidence to make us change our minds about the possible risks, and the consequences of being prepared vs not. being prepared.

#2 This is *far* more applicable to Pollys and DGIs. Their interpretation is "Nothing will/can happen. So why be prepared for anything?"

#3 Perhaps this admittedly rather prevalent attitude is a response to GIs being vilified and ridiculed when we say "Gee, there might be a problem here." and are then called panic mongers, profiteers, wackos, hoarders, extremists, and accused of causing the problem. Many people on all sides of any question tend to get ego invested in their opinion and stated position.

#4 Same response as #2. Many GIs in this and other forums talk about the schizophrenic quality of preparing for something that might be very bad and might be nothing at all, or anything in between. We are *dealing* with the uncertainty, rather than simply denying it.

#5 some do, most don't, just like DGIs

#6 Where does THIS come from??? One of my GI friends is the chief administrator of the local hospital; another is a former head of a huge Federal agency, the equivalent of say, the US Forest Service. (Sorry I can't be more specific, he asked me not to.)

#7 Can only speak for myself here - having worked in the Federal government and having many friends and acquuaintences who also have, I AM deeply suspicious of their statements and motives. But that does not apply to vague "...forces that influence (my life) their lives..." React with hatred? Make your own judgement by reading this post and others of mine. Fear? Well, remember there is no word in our language for paranoia that is justified.

#8 some do, most don't, just like etc., etc.

#9 Applies equally well to Pollys and DGIs as far as it goes. I read all of GN's links every day. That doesn't mean I draw the same conclusions as he, but it is a good source of collected information. I also read all or most of about 15 other sites that I find worthwhile, and have bookmarked well over a hundred others. Most are slanted some way or another. Seems to be human nature.

#10 You mean Milne's 7-11 statement and the like? That's Milne, not all of us, and you know it. So why do you find it neccessary to flame "most" GIs, and put your disclaimer at the bottom of your post, after people will already be riled up?

What I find most unfortunate is the increasing polarization of viewpoints, and the divisions between people that creates. With slightly different wording (and perhaps a little different intent?) you could have made your post something to try to open peoples eyes and bring them together (humor maybe?), rather than making a bunch of negative condemning statements about ..."numerous attributes most of them share."

On a fundamental level, what are you trying to create? And why?

Joe

-- Joe (paraflyr@cybernet1.com), November 11, 1999.

Joe:

Excellent reply. I think you've cleared up a misunderstanding I had, for which I thank you. I continue to think my description applies to maybe a dozen lunatic fringers here, and it applies equally well to opposite fringers on other fora. But for the vast majority here, it is inaccurate and unfair. My apologies.

I think what lies at the heart of my problem is that the term "get it", beyond being self-serving, is applied so generally to almost any opinion as to drain it of useful meaning. As used by many on this thread, it simply implies a recognition that there are date bugs out there which could cause problems.

Let me try this from another angle. Even the extremists who claim y2k is a hoax don't deny there are bugs which might cause problems. There are always bugs, and bugs always cause problems. From what I can tell, the "hoax" crowd simply doesn't accept that there can be a systemic computer problem that any reasonably run business can't or won't reduce to the level of normal maintenance.

The militant optimists don't deny possibilities either, but rather probabilities. As an analogy, they don't deny that people can and do die in traffic accidents, but they take exception to the tendency of some to concentrate exclusively on fatal crashes, and extrapolate from this (highly limited) dataset that such crashes are sure to mean the end of transportation as we know it.

My take here, perhaps incorrect, is that those who claim to "get it" are those who assign improbably high likelihood to the prospect of truly serious breakdowns. As a shining example, consider the currently active thread where people are predicting whether they will suffer power blackouts at rollover. Last I looked at that thread, about half the respondents believe they'll be without power. These aren't lunatic fringe people. They really believe their power will go out.

But what is this belief based on? NERC has reported almost no problems found that would interfere with the physical functionality of power generation or distribution. The usual counter argument is that NERC is a trade organization somehow whitewashing the "real" facts, which are of course unknown but must be bad. Also, we've had quite a few credible people here explaining the lack of problems in detail. This is countered by sometimes calling these people industry shills, and sometimes pointing out that their experience is limited to a few facilities, so doesn't represent the big picture, which must be bad. Finally, contingency plans are cited as strong indicators that widespread power outages are expected, while the statements that such a contingency is considered highly unlikey is dismissed as spin.

My point is that many have crossed the line here, from a recognition of the slim *possibility* of a power outage, to a conviction that power *will* be out. My interpretation of the posts of those who claim to "get it" is that they have generally crossed that line, from recognition of possibility to conviction of near certainty of systemic breakdown. The flavor of the presentations here (in my eyes, always) is NOT "here is something that might happen, best to prepare", but rather "serious trouble *cannot* be avoided, and if you don't agree than you don't Get It."

[Wow, definitely a broad brush!]

I tried to limit my description to the "Milniacs". Granted, I should have said that at the beginning of my original post, not at the end.

[Throwing cold water on our warm fuzzy little feel-good party, hmmm? Perhaps an accurate analysis of a few of the folks you have crossed keyboards with, but extremely inaccurate about most others, as is any judgement about any large group of people. From what I have read of your posts you are intelligent enough to know that, which makes this one rather trollish. But what the heck, I'll play along.]

Agreed. My implication that this applied generally was trollish. Sorry.

[What my family, and my friends who are GIs, "get" is the *POSSIBILITY* that things MAY go badly. And we see the potential benefit of being prepared as best we can.]

Yes, I also see this possibility and I've prepared for it. While "badly" is hardly a precise term, the usual picture I get of things going bad (based on what's posted here) is quite severe. My reading of ALL the available information (not just the worst) combined with my experience and knowledge of all manner of past problems, leads me to believe This is prohibitively unlikely to happen. And my belief is reinforced by my reading of the arguments (and underlying assumptions) presented here to support the pessimistic positions.

[Re your #1 (paraphrased)...nothing else to get... we just haven't seen enough hard evidence to make us change our minds about the possible risks, and the consequences of being prepared vs not. being prepared.]

OK, I agree we haven't seen any really hard evidence of anything. We *have*, without question, seen a consistent pattern of taking all warnings to heart, while dismissing all positive reports as self- reported, self interested spin. Consider the changing viewpoints toward the "spike dates" that came and went uneventfully. Nobody ever claimed those dates were the "real thing", only that they were useful as being "highly indicative" of the scale of the "real thing." Now, those passed dates are being dismissed as errors, misunderstandings, and irrelevant. My interpretation of this re-evaluation of those spike dates is that they failed to "indicate" what many here wanted. How many remain of the opinion that they were indeed indicative, and therefore good news?

[#2 This is *far* more applicable to Pollys and DGIs. Their interpretation is "Nothing will/can happen. So why be prepared for anything?" ]

Well, I apply this to extreme viewpoints, regardless of which extreme. I agree the no-problem crowd illustrates this best.

[#4 Same response as #2. Many GIs in this and other forums talk about the schizophrenic quality of preparing for something that might be very bad and might be nothing at all, or anything in between. We are *dealing* with the uncertainty, rather than simply denying it.]

Based on your (and others') response, I can see that I phrased this poorly. I've seen a great deal of binary thinking.

[#5 some do, most don't, just like DGIs]

Maybe I've been on the wrong end of this often enough to color my perspective a lot. My reading is that most posts don't attack because of the general agreement that things will be very bad. Those who take a different position (remember Norm?) are blasted mercilessly. I do agree that not everyone joins in, only the bullies.

[#6 Where does THIS come from??? One of my GI friends is the chief administrator of the local hospital; another is a former head of a huge Federal agency, the equivalent of say, the US Forest Service. (Sorry I can't be more specific, he asked me not to.)]

Agreed. I cannot address those who don't post here, and whose opinions I've never been directly exposed to. Again, I distinguish between the recognition of possibilities and the arbitrary assignment of high probabilities. So I did try to make it clear that I was talking about those who post assurances of doom on this forum, not acquaintences who may be aware of genuine threats.

[#7 ...I AM deeply suspicious of their statements and motives. But that does not apply to vague "...forces that influence (my life) their lives..."]

Sigh. Again, I was too abrupt. Yes, I too find many goverenment statements suspect, to be taken with a grain of salt. But I was trying to describe a general viewpoint, with many facets. For just a very few examples, the conviction that the mass media are engaged in propaganda at the behest of (NWO, the government, you name it), the large number of suspected conspiracies, the repeated suggestion that some posters here are paid agents of nefarious organizations, the venom aimed at 'Klinton', the belief that we're in the final throes of moral decay, the conviction that the banking system is corrupt by nature, the worst-case assumptions applied to everything from contrails to plane crashes, the conviction that businesses (and businessmen) are fundamentally dishonest, and so on. Is it any wonder such a group would project doom from date bugs?

[#8 some do, most don't, just like etc., etc.]

Yes and no. This is like saying it's invalid to call the NRA "pro- gun" on the grounds that "some" of the membership sees value in denying weapons to criminals, children, or the insane. A characterization applied to the vast majority doesn't become incorrect on the grounds that the majority isn't 100%. The pattern of double-standard is overwhelming, even though not universal. You need only look at the standards of evidence being applied. We've seen too many cases here where even IV&V isn't considered good enough if the results are positive, while non-response to a survey is considered sufficient indication that the nonresponders are in trouble.

[#9 Seems to be human nature.]

All too true.

[#10 You mean Milne's 7-11 statement and the like? That's Milne, not all of us, and you know it. So why do you find it neccessary to flame "most" GIs, and put your disclaimer at the bottom of your post, after people will already be riled up?]

Not just Milne either. How about "y2k cannot be fixed"? How about "we started too late"? How about "It's not the y1999 problem, it's the Y2000 problem"? How about "the code is broken"? How about "better to prepare and not need it, than need it and not have it"? These are slogans. And many who use and have popularized them are considered (or at least nominated) as among the most respected here.

[What I find most unfortunate is the increasing polarization of viewpoints, and the divisions between people that creates. With slightly different wording (and perhaps a little different intent?) you could have made your post something to try to open peoples eyes and bring them together (humor maybe?), rather than making a bunch of negative condemning statements about ..."numerous attributes most of them share."

On a fundamental level, what are you trying to create? And why?]

Good points. I confess I wasn't in a generous mood. I've tried to clear things up a bit here.

-- Flint (Flintc@mindspring.com), November 11, 1999.

He's just mad because he wasn't a child prodigy. By the way, 80 percent of workers are in non-managerial positions. So that generalization is not specific to this group.

-- Amy Leone (leoneamy@aol.com), November 12, 1999.