What is your opinion of the Pope stating last July that Hell does not exist? Are there earlier threads on this subject?

-- a (a@a.a), November 03, 1999

Answers

My opinion: He didn't!

-- Br. Rich S.F.O. (repsfo@prodigy.net), November 03, 1999.

uh, yes he did. Search the Catholic News service. I cant believe you have not yet discussed this subject on this forum.

-- a (a@a.a), November 03, 1999.

There have been already some threads on this subject: - http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001GWc - http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001B3g - http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001AWo

Hope they help a bit. Have a nice day,

Franz

-- Franz Waldhaeusl (waldhaeusl@euro-photo.net), November 04, 1999.

We did discuss it already. He did not say it doesn't exist.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), November 04, 1999.

"In the theological sense, Hell is something else: it is the final consequence of the very sin that turns back on the one who committed it. It is the situation in which the one who rejects the Father's mercy, even at the last moment of life, finally places himself. Redemption remains as an offer of salvation, which man should freely embrace. This is the reason why each one will be judged 'according to his works,' . . .

Moreover, the pictures of Hell given to us in Sacred Scripture must be correctly interpreted. They express the total frustration and emptiness of a life without God. More than a place, Hell is the state of the one who freely and finally removes himself from God, the source of life and joy, . . .

For us human beings, this experience of theirs [the demons] is like a warning: it is a constant reminder to avoid the tragedy that is the outcome of sin, and to model our existence on Jesus, whose life unfolded as a yes to God. Condemnation remains a real possibility but, without special divine revelation, we have not been given the knowledge if there are human beings who are definitely affected and who they are."

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), November 04, 1999.

This is what happens when people do not read the entirety of an article or do not understand what they are reading. The Pope never said that hell does not exist. Please reread the article. Ellen

-- Ellen K. Hornby (dkh@canada.com), November 10, 1999.

A little on the humorous side, where will English speaking people send someone they don't like: "go to h..." if Hell is only a "state of mind"?

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), November 27, 1999.

Let me say that nobody, and I do mean nobody, knows what hell looks like, and the pope's stating that there is no hell (thank you for clearing that up; I recently added a comment, stating [since I had learned on the news] that I thought the pope had described hell as though he had been there) is certainly incorrect. There is indeed a hell, and actually, a way you could describe it is given in the Bible, as Jesus talks much about it in the four gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John). Did you also know that the pope has declared his faith in evolution? (I heard that on the news, but does anyone know of any Web sites I can find that give a clipping, newspaper, in English, where he declares this?) Also, did you know that the pope has brought together the major world religious leaders and has declared that there should be one world religion? I wonder if anyone knows of this...(I have seen live footage of the pope meeting with these religious leaders, and bringing them together with his statement that there should be only one world religion...has anybody been keeping up with the Book of Revelation lately?) Never get me wrong. I most definitely respect the pontiff to the fullest, and I must say I was very much shocked when I learned of this only about an half a year ago. I will keep the pontiff in my prayers, and you all also always. God bless you, and may Christ Jesus be with you all. No Jesus, no peace. Know Jesus, know peace.

Much love in Christ

-- Anonymous (noemail@no.email.com), December 02, 1999.

Dear Anonymous,

You are confused.

We've already discussed the Pope's view of evolution in this thread:

http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0015jL

The Pope has never said that he wishes to set up a one-world religion (unless it's Catholicism, of course ;-D). It's best not to toss around these unsubstantiated rumours.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), December 03, 1999.

The pope's heading for one world religion is no rumour, whatsoever. I would certainly never throw this out to this forum if I had not seen what I had seen on that video. Those were certainly not actors.

Much love in Christ

-- Anonymous (noemail@no.email.com), December 03, 1999.

Then tell us exactly what he is alleged to have said and document your sources in a way that we can all verify that what you say is true and that he is not being quoted out of context. Otherwise this is just National Enquirer stuff.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), December 03, 1999.

I will gladly do so and see what words there are that were said on this footage. I saw this about half a year ago, but all I have to do is go and find a copy of that tape from the teacher who showed it to us. Also, might I add that, if you know so much, Mr Palmer, then please, enlighten me as to what you have heard about the pope. Let me see what you know about your Holy Father. I am running short of time, but when I return, I will respond to your other post in response to my post at the top of this message board page. I do not think you have any thing you can find to correct any "errors" I have, and please, let me see what you have to say up above in response to my post. I will see what you know, and see what the Lord teaches in His living word.

-- Anonymous (noemail@no.email.com), December 03, 1999.

Dear Anonymous,

Call me David, please; Mr. Palm is my father.

When you do reply to this and the other thread, be sure to begin by telling us 1) whether you are a Roman Catholic and 2) the name of the denomination you belong to or the name of the local congregation with which you worship. Then I will be very glad to point out the numerous errors you have made since you have been posting here; I hope you will be gracious enough to admit those mistakes when they are pointed out to you.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), December 03, 1999.

Dear a,

You my friend are challenging a very knowledgeable person in David. He knows everything. He does not like to repeat himself "It has already been discussed in this forum" is his favorite. He has challenged me to some questions that I am working on and hope to be able to answer very soon. But you know, having knowledge and having wisdom are two different things. I have been accused of not wanting to learn about the catholic religion, but wanting to tell the catholics what they are wrong in. In truth, I do want to learn. I have asked for understanding of this religion with no success. (David doesn't like the word "fail"). It is us who question this faith and some others who are wrong. Be careful, he bites.

-- Yolanda Duarte (yondelac@nmda-bubba.nmsu.edu), December 03, 1999.

Thank you for the warning, Yolanda, and I will certainly call you David, my brother. Go and see my reply to your reply to my thread above and you will find my certain reasons. I will admit to anything that may be incorrect, but if not, then I shall wholly never admit to anything I know I am not wrong in. Throw at me your best, my good brother. For now, may God keep you safe always, and I will always keep you in my prayers. Take care, you two, and all of my love in Christ.

-- Anonymous (noemail@no.email.com), December 03, 1999.

Dear Yolanda,

Anybody who cares to read your postings here will notice that you do a lot more preaching than listening. Then, when somebody does try to explain the Catholic faith to you, you act as if nobody said anything to you and continue to assert the same misunderstanding of Catholic beliefs that you had before. Let's have an example:

On Nov 17 you wrote: << There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that can take His place, and by putting all of the dead saints, the dead virgin mary, and the pope, who none have died, buried and rose again for you, ahead of Jesus is really hurtful to Jesus. >>

LoriAnn replied on Nov 18, explaining very clearly that asking the saints who have gone on to be with Christ to pray for us is no different than asking any other human being to pray for us. She made it quite clear that this is not putting them "ahead of Jesus." She made the same point about the pope, stating clearly that no Catholic puts the pope ahead of God.

Chris Butler replied on Nov 23 giving you a link to a very fine Web site and specifically an essay by him explaining Catholic beliefs on Mary and the saints. He said explicitly to you that, "in 2,000 years of Church teaching, the Church never taught that the pope or Mary are equal to Christ. Jesus is God Himself, the Alpha and the Omega, the uncreated, omnipotent, omniscient, eternal God, one with God the Father and the Holy Spirit."

On Nov 30 Ellen Hornby explained to you that, "I don't think any son would be upset if his mother was honored. Honoring Mary or asking her to intercede on our behalf, takes nothing away from God." This again makes it very clear that the Catholic belief on Mary and the saints does not them "ahead of Jesus."

The Catechism of the Catholic Church also makes it completely clear that Catholics are never to give to Mary, the saints, or the pope the same honor due to God alone. That is an official statement of our beliefs and it is available on the Web and in bookstores everywhere.

After all this, Yolanda, you replied to Ellen on Dec 2 by stating: "If you choose to please the dead saints and mary and the pope, in the same way you please Christ, then so be it."

Now I look at this whole exchange and have a really hard time believing that you are seriously interested in learning about the Catholic faith. Rather, it appears to me that you think you already know what Catholics believe and you don't want to be confused with the facts.

Now, why don't you believe LoriAnn and Chris and Ellen and me and the Catechism of the Catholic Church when we tell you that Catholics are forbidden to give to Mary, the saints, and the pope the honor, glory, and worship due to God alone? Why do you just keep insisting that we believe something that we all say that we do not believe? Oh, and here are a few more questions for you.

Where does the Bible say that those who have died in Christ are not able to pray for us?

Where does the Bible say that we cannot ask them to pray for us?

Where does the Bible say that asking somebody to pray for you takes glory away from God?

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), December 03, 1999.

David, Gee Dude, one question at a time. Didn't mean to get you so hyped up about this! Facts are one thing and opinions another. If I still have questions, it is because the facts have not been presented. You are filled with lots and lots of knowledge but where is the understanding and wisdom that you lack to show? I am not wanting to be argumentative with you or anyone else. If I state my view on things, why does that make me argumentive? I still wait for someone to show me the errors of my ways, by facts. I can't be sure if it was you that said that the bible is not the sole book. I don't have the time to look it up, but when I read that, I got the goosebumps! If the Bible is not the book, the only book, then what is? You show alot of pride in your knowledge. Pride is a downfall to some extent. All I have wanted is for facts. In the same manner, when I show you a verse that I feel would answer a question, you throw another that questions that. Or you try to explain what you think it means. I mean, you tell me what it means. David, I want to learn about Christ, whether it be through catholics, protestants, baptist, etc. Christ is head of all, you and me. If I have questions on your beliefs, can I not ask and at the same time give my views on it? I believe God sent His only Son to die for me, I believe He died, rose from the dead and lives. Why is there so much in between? Why are the saints and the virgin mary involved? Why are there so many regulations? I really do want to learn, in spite of what you think. This has hounded me for many years and I have not found anyone to help me understand and see why there is a need for any one else besides Christ. You have given alot of knowledge with no wisdom and understanding. You will be happy to know that I will look else where for answers, so I will probably not be on this forum, (thread) for a while. I am still working on the questions you gave me. It will take me a while, but I will try to get back to you soon. God Bless.

-- Yolanda Duarte (yondelac@nmda-bubba.nmsu.edu), December 03, 1999.

Dear Yolanda,

I appreciate your effort in looking for answers to the questions I raised. But actually we are talking about questions that are not the most central ones. IMO, we should actually be talking about God's Word, what is it and how do we know it? I have created a thread where we can explore this, if you're game. If not, that's cool too. You can get to it through the link below (I hope ;-D) or you can look for it in New Questions.

[a href = "http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001vES"] Click Here[/a]

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), December 03, 1999.

Argggghhh! Try this:

[a] href = "http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001vES"] Click Here[/a]

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), December 03, 1999.

Never mind. Sigh! Just look in New Questions if you're interested.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), December 03, 1999.

One more try:

Click Here

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), December 03, 1999.

Yolande and Mr. A. - The realization of Christ having died for our sins to myself is so profound along with God The Father becoming a human being and living among us brings me at times to tears.

When I see the bantering of so many who are hungry for truth and knowledge I sit back and wonder how I can be of help in this matter. So much confusion is of human origin and The Father is os patient with of His children created in love.

For those who parents the holding of a baby is so special as they are so dependant upon us. As they grow and feel their independance we have to step back and watch the hurts and harms take place through both discovery and acceptance of the full dependancy of the Father who only wants to walk upright with grace and dignity.

Be patient with those on this sight if you are able to do so for we are learning and longing to rid ouselves of the shadows which obscure our views. WE are learning to-gether and have an obligation to be kind to one another. Arrogance holds no place here.

Peace And Well Being A Little Brother In Christ

-- jean (John) bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), December 05, 1999.

Guys, I’m new here but I thought I would say something. If you believe Jesus is the Son of God, he came to earth lived a sinless life, died for your sins on the cross and was raised up on the third day, you asked him to forgive you of your sins, and come and be master of your life. YOU’RE SAVED. After that everything else will follow, the true love for God and a want to serve him, the pure peace that only a saved man can know; all stems from God. Regardless of your "Religion” Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, whatever. Ether you’re saved or your not. The details of your faith will follow with reading the bible, prayer, and time; but I say we should concentrate less on our differences and more on the unsaved world around us. Though we may not agree on the small things, if we can agree on the saving grace of God and every humans need to know of Jesus Christ, the accomplishments for the kingdom of God by his power through us his servants, would be unimaginable.

Your friend in Christ, A Christian Brother

-- A Christian Brother (NA@NA.com), November 14, 2001.

that i pain for him as a tool and a puppet. hard work and long centuries are comming to sour fruition for a next one off in power and generally awaiting office so to speek. that is guess who fits the bill as next up and least likley. dont over look who dosent want to be seen. i shoot to riddle this arguement with holes as ( as please see i see this clearly ) it's so damm stratigic at our piont in time to be the mis-leader takeing up and stiring all confusion in to a historicly nobel profession. that that prince, oops i mean next pope is guiding lit virtues into ever darkining weavs. though do too see that these are wooly endevers thickining in the eyes and turturnecking over conversive arguments wolrdwide. i atest as some do also, that who else pains us and lines us up for more lines. the seven candels are now under your arse, and i joy that your luke warm day has fired me up too. of corse their is no hell, hell how else would satan get so many inquries?....

-- Kneed t. Know (toungsharpedge@hotmail.com), January 15, 2003.

think about it, theirs alot of space with little BURNING lights. you die bad, you fuel it, feel that? you BURN. if you good, aaahhh, you cruz, you light speed. e=mc2 fool, times relivent now, go wherever to whenever. gamma now ma. even watch over you. lotsa room for gods plan eh? submitted by a 26 y.o. thinker.

-- Kneed t. Know (toungsharpedge@hotmail.com), January 15, 2003.

Christian Brother, you wrote that we're all saved "Regardless of your "Religion” Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran".

So you are saying that it doesn't make any difference which religion you believe in, huh? Are you aware that's a heresy called "indifferentism", the belief that all religions are the same? Where do you draw the line? All religions are NOT the same, and it DOES make a difference which one you believe in.

-- Christine L. :-) (christine_lehman@hotmail.com), January 15, 2003.

The infallible doctrine of Extra Ecclesiam, Nulla Salus, states very clearly, that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. If God has a way of saving, outside of that, He hasn't let us in on it. I would hope, as a human being that it were so, as I have relatives, who are not Catholic. Sure, pray for them and hope, but that is as far as we can go. We must believe "no salvation", or we are in heresy.

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), January 15, 2003.

Ed, you're taking us from one extreme to the other -- all in one thread!!

The original poster was wrong to say that it doesn't matter which religion you belong to. However, *you* are wrong to say that the Church's own definition of "Extra ecclesia nulla salus" is incorrect. It's the Church's teaching, and the Church's right to interpret it. And the Church stated very clearly -- in the infamous Fr. Leonard Feeney case -- that this teaching does *not* meant that only baptized Roman Catholics can be saved.

That certainly doesn't mean that we should relax our efforts to evangelize and convert others to the True Church, so we can be SURE of their salvation. But it does mean that we need to leave at least a LITTLE room for God's great merciful Heart. :-)

-- Christine L. :-) (christine_lehman@hotmail.com), January 15, 2003.

Christine, I hate to disagree with you,as I do not have too many compatibles on these threads, but I have read Extra Ecclesiam, several times, and if any document is more clear, I would like to see it. There are positively no loopholes. If it is defined any differently today, someone has to be wrong. Logic says, that it can be, but also cannot be. That is not the only dogmatic pronoucement. Eugene 4th and one other pope, (I forget who), have also prounced it infallibly. That is one reason today, that evangelizing has fallen off so drastically. Hey!, if I had my way, all would go to Heaven.I don't cherish Lucifer, getting even one soul. Whaatever they are teaching these days is not dogmatic, unless they say so, and they haven't said so.

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), January 15, 2003.