OT: The Myth of Nazi Gun Controlgreenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread
You know the more you research a subject the more information you find. LINK
By N. A. Browne
A commonly heard argument against gun control is that the National Socialists of Germany (the Nazis) used it in their ascent to and maintenance of power. A corollary argument is sometimes made that had the Jews (and presumably, the other targeted groups) been armed, they could have fought off Nazi tyranny. This tract will counter these misassumptions about Nazi gun control.
Gun control, the Law on Firearms and Ammunition, was introduced to Germany in 1928 under the Weimar regime (there was no Right to Arms in the Constitution of 1919) in large part to disarm the nascent private armies, e.g. the Nazi SA (aka "the brownshirts"). The Weimar government was attempting to bring some stability to German society and politics (a classic "law and order" position). Violent extremist movements (of both the Left and Right) were actively attacking the young democratic state. A government that cannot maintain some degree of public order cannot maintain the confidence and support of its citizenry. Nor was the German citizenry well grounded in Constitutional, republican government (as was evidenced in their choices at the ballot box). Gun control was not initiated at the behest or on behalf of the Nazis - it was in fact designed to keep them, or others of the same ilk, from executing a revolution against the lawful government.
The 1928 law was subsequently extended in 1938 under the Third Reich (this action being the principal point in support of the contention that the Nazis were advocates of gun control). However, the Nazis were firmly in control of Germany at the time the Weapons Law of 1938 was created. Further, this law was not passed by a legislative body, but was promulgated under the dictatorial power granted Hitler in 1933. Obviously, the Nazis did not need gun control to attain power as they already (in 1938) possessed supreme and unlimited power in Germany. The only feasible argument that gun control favored the Nazis would be that the 1928 law deprived private armies of a means to defeat them. The basic flaw with this argument is that the Nazis did not seize power by force of arms, but through their success at the ballot box (and the political cunning of Hitler himself). When does the ammo box become a legitimate alternative to the ballot box?
The Third Reich did not need gun control (in 1938 or at any time thereafter) to maintain their power. The success of Nazi programs (restoring the economy, dispelling socio-political chaos) and the misappropriation of justice by the apparatus of terror (the Gestapo) assured the compliance of the German people. Arguing otherwise assumes a resistance to Nazi rule that did not exist. Further, supposing the existance of an armed resistance also requires the acceptance that the German people would have rallied to the rebellion. This argument requires a total suspension of disbelief given everything we know about 1930s Germany. Why then did the Nazis introduce this program? As with most of their actions (including the formation of the Third Reich itself), they desired to effect a facade of legalism around the exercise of naked power. It is unreasonable to treat this as a normal part of lawful governance, as the rule of law had been entirely demolished in the Third Reich. Any direct quotations, of which there are several, that pronounce some beneficence to the Weapons Law should be considered in the same manner as all other Nazi pronouncements - absolute lies. (See Bogus Gun Control Quotes and endnote .)
An even more farfetched question is the hypothetical proposition of armed Jewish resistance. It hardly seems conceivable that armed resistance by Jews (or any other target group) would have led to any weakening of Nazi rule, let alone a full scale popular rebellion. If anything, it would have exacerbated the roiling anti-Semitism of the Party faithful and whipped them into a frenzy. Rather than silent deaths in the camps, Jewish blood would have flowed in the streets. That armed and resistant Jews might have killed some of their Nazi persecutors (as they did in the Warsaw ghetto), while a laudable sentiment, would have been of little significance to the overall operations of the Nazi death machine.
The simple conclusion is that there are no lessons about the efficacy of gun control to be learned from the Germany of the first half of this century. There is no credible argument to be made that an armed German populace would have been any hindrance whatsoever to the Nazi march to power, or the insanity of their deadly hatred. It is all too easy to forget the seductive allure that fascism presented to all the West, bogged down in economic and social morass. What must be remembered is that the Nazis were master manipulators of popular emotion and sentiment, and were disdainful of people thinking for themselves. There is the danger to which we should pay great heed.
Shirer, William L., The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.
Jay Simkin, Aaron Zelman and Alan Rice, Lethal Laws.
International Constitutional Law
. This is not to say Hitler did not value gun control. After having occupied Russian territory Hitler said: Der grv_te Unsinn, den man in den besetzen Ostgebieten machen kvnnte, sei der, den unterworfenen Vvlkern Waffen zu geben. Die Geschicte lehre, da_ alle Herrenvvlker untergegangen seien, nachdem sie den von ihnen unterworfenen Volkern Waffen bewilligt hatten. [The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to permit the conquered Eastern peoples to have arms. History teaches that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so.] --- Adolf Hitler (1889-1945), April 11, 1942, quoted in Hitlers Tischegesprache Im Fuhrerhauptquartier 1941-1942. [Hitler's Table-Talk at the Fuhrer's Headquarters 1941-1942], Dr. Henry Picker, ed. (Athenaum-Verlag, Bonn, 1951)
GunCite does not have the German version, but Hitler continues, "Indeed I would go so far as to say that the underdog is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order."
-- y2k dave (email@example.com), October 28, 1999
"When does the ammo box become a legitimate alternative to the ballot box?"
This is the essay question for the final exam.No grade.Pass/Fail
-- Sam (Gunmkr52@aol.com), October 28, 1999.
"When does the ammo box replace the ballot box?" I guess when a few million jews are murdered. Or maybe a few million Russians or a few million Chinese, or a few thousand American Patriots in 1776. The problem is you'll never really know what a difference it would have made because it's in the past. However had there been more than about six revolvers in the Warsaw ghetto I would say they may have held out a bit longer. What's the difference? I think I'd rather die with a fight than in a gas chamber. I don't comment on gun control very often because it's the silliest argument of our times. If there were no guns the murder rate would drop drastically, no doubt about it. However there are about 250 million guns in this country so good luck getting rid of them. It isn't going to happen. Secondly they last a long time, and lastly all things being equal a gun is really not that difficult to manufacture. Guns are here forever get used to it. Concentrate on punishing those who commit crimes with a gun (exile law) and the problem will largely fix itself. This is a little to simple for some folks to believe but often the simplest path is the right path. Fools try to complicate the issue and do-gooders have very little faith in common sense for some reason. Oh and there's also that little document we used to use to govern ourselves called the Constitution. Where is John Galt? He'll be here soon. Stick to the topic.
-- (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 28, 1999.
The reason TPTB don't want to really punish those that commit gun crime is really very simple. THEN they wouldn't have the gun crime to decry on the news! You would be eliminating the "anti-thesis" portion of their tactics to communize this country. It's the Hegelian dialectic at work, the same with so many other issues; CREATE the problem - DECRY the problem - Then, offer the SOLUTION that you have been waiting in the wings with, (a solution that had previously been unthinkable to the people, I might add).
The THESIS = the ANTITHESIS = the SYNTHESIS. This is the prevailing formula for social change in America, and we've, (our ancestors), have been played like fiddles with this tune.
Only 40,000 or so die from gun crime/accident each year, there was recently a story that 105,000 were killed by medical malpractice/negligence and wrongfully prescribed medication. Want to do some good? Outlaw alleopathic, (against the body), medicine with their petrochemical-based drugs and return to homeopathic, (with the body),herbal remedies in tandem with proper nutrition.
-- Patrick (email@example.com), October 28, 1999.
"Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my handgun"
-- a (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 28, 1999.
Gun Control's Nazi Connection
By Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership, Inc. P.O. Box 270143 Hartford, WI 53027 http://www.jpfo.org/GCA_68.htm Startling evidence suggests that the Gun Control Act of 1968 was lifted, almost in its entirety, from Nazi legislation. We must call for a full investigation, and the repeal of GCA '68 -- NOW. Are you tired of being told that gun control is a chronic pain that you have to accept because there's no cure? Do you -- a law abiding person -- want to be free: to own whichever firearms you want to own, regardless of where in America you live; from waiting periods, gun bans, magazine capacity restrictions, etc.; to spend your time on the range or in the field, rather than fighting gun control? Are you tired of giving hard earned bucks to efforts that have at best only slowed the gun grabbers' push toward firearms registration and confiscation? If you have had enough of death by a thousand cuts, you are ready to take action to wipe out gun control -- now. Members of Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (JPFO) consider gun control to be an aggressive cancer. JPFO has a cure, a way to destroy gun control. JPFO has hard evidence that shows that the Nazi Weapons Law (March 18, 1938) is the source of the U.S Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA '68). Adolph Hitler signed the Nazi Weapons Law. The Gestapo (Nazi National Secret Police) enforced it. In 'Gun Control: Gateway to Tyranny' we present the official German text of the Nazi Weapons Law and a side-by-side translation into English. Even more deadly: a side-by-side, section-by-section comparison of the GCA '68 with the Nazi Weapons Law. If you have this in your hands, no one can tell you that you're imagining things. The clincher: JPFO knows who implanted into American law cancerous ideas from the Nazi Weapons Law. The likely culprit is a former senator, now deceased. We have documentary proof -- see below -- that he had the original text of the Nazi Weapons Law in his possession 4 months before the bill that became GCA '68 was signed into law. This former senator was a senior member of the U.S. team that helped to prosecute Nazi war criminals at Nuremberg, Germany, in 1945-46. That is probably where he found out about the Nazi Weapons Law. He may have gotten a copy of it then, or at a later date. We cannot imagine why any U.S. lawmaker would own original texts of Nazi laws. To find out his name, read on. With this hard evidence in your hands and in your head, you can destroy cancerous gun control. You can challenge anyone who backs gun control. You can show them the Nazi ideas, line by line. The parallels between the Nazi law and GCA '68 will leap at you from the page. For example, law abiding firearm owners in Illinois, Massachusetts and New Jersey must carry identification cards based on formats from the Nazi Weapons Law. Nazi based laws have no place in America. Thousands of Americans died or were wounded in the war to wipe out the Nazis. They did not suffer or die so that Hitler's ideas could live on in America and kill more Americans. Remember Killeen, Texas! The 23 who died in Luby's Cafeteria there died because they obeyed Nazi inspired gun control laws. The law forced them, unarmed, to face an armed madman. To destroy gun control before more law abiding Americans are murdered by criminals or madmen helped by gun control, you need to get hold of the evidence as presented in 'Gun Control; Gateway to Tyranny.' You can then challenge the media, the most aggressive backers of gun control. Ask media personalities in your city or town why they back Nazi based laws. You can demand repeal of GCA '68 and the thousands of state and local laws based on it. You can help to erase gun control, Hitler's last legacy. GCA '68 puts your life at risk right now. You have a constitutional civil right to be armed in order to protect yourself, because under U.S law the police have no duty to protect the average person: "There is no constitutional right to be protected by the state (or Federal) against being murdered by criminals or madmen. It is monstrous if the state fails to protect its residents against such predators but it does not violate the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, or, we suppose, any other provision of the Constitution. The Constitution is a charter of negative liberties: it tells the state (gov't) to let people alone; it does not require the federal government or the state to provide services, even so elementary a service as maintaining law and order" (Bowers v. DeVito, U.S. Court of Appeals, Seventh Circuit, 686F.2d 616 ). The Supreme Court last dealt with this issue in 1856; the 1982 decision states the position in modern language. The laws of virtually every state parallel federal law (see JPFO Special Report "Dial 911 and Die!" covered in 'Guns & Ammo', July 1992). This has been so ever since the Constitution was adopted in 1791. As a result, the framers of the Second Amendment deliberately created (guaranteed) an individual civil right to be armed. It is your only reliable defense against criminals. GCA '68 ties your hands and keeps you from carrying out your legal duty to ensure your own self defense. GCA '68 thus undermines a pillar of U.S. law and helps criminals to kill law abiding Americans. Hitler would be pleased. Thus, GCA '68 marked a new approach to gun control. It replaced the Federal Firearms Act (June 30, 1938), which was based on the federal power to regulate interstate commerce. The 1938 law required firearms dealers to get a federal license (which then cost $1). Only dealers could ship firearms across state lines. Ordinary people could receive shipments from dealers. In GCA '68 the government required that in almost all cases only dealers could send and receive firearms across state lines. This ended "mail order" sales of firearms by law abiding persons who are not licensed dealers. GCA '68 hits you even harder. Congress gave federal bureaucrats in Washington D.C., the power to decide what kinds of firearms you can own. The framers of GCA '68 borrowed an idea -- that certain firearms are "hunting weapons" -- from the Nazi Weapons Law (Section 21 and Section 32 of the Regulations, page 61 and page 73, respectively, of 'Gun Control: Gateway to Tyranny'). The equivalent U.S. term, "sporting purpose," was used to classify firearms. But it was not defined anywhere in GCA '68. Thus, bureaucrats were empowered to ban whole classes of firearms. They have, in fact, done so. We wanted to know the source of these new ideas. On reading "Dial 911 and Die!" a JPFO member told us he had seen an article -- by Alan Stang in 'Review of the News,' October 4, 1967 (pages 15-20) -- the author of which felt that the Nazi Weapons Law was the model for GCA '68. We found the article. But Stang did not reproduce the Nazi law, so we could not check his conclusions. We started to hunt for the text of the Nazi Weapons Law. We eventually found it, in the law library of an Ivy League university. Until 1943-44, the German government published its laws and regulations in the 'Reichsgesetzblatt,' roughly the equivalent of the U.S. Federal Register. Carefully shelved by law librarians, the 1938 issues of this German government publication had gathered a lot of dust. In the 'Reichsgesetzblatt' issue for the week of March 21, 1938, was the official text of the Weapons Law (March 18, 1938). It gave Hitler's Nazi party a stranglehold on the Germans, many of whom did not support the Nazis. We found that the Nazis did not invent gun control in Germany. The Nazis inherited gun control and then perfected it: they invented handgun control. The Nazi Weapons Law of 1938 replaced a Law on Firearms and Ammunition of April 13, 1928. The 1928 law was enacted by a center-right, freely elected German government that wanted to curb "gang activity," violent street fights between Nazi party and Communist party thugs. All firearm owners and their firearms had to be registered. Sound familiar? Gun control did not save democracy in Germany. It helped to make sure that the toughest criminals, the Nazis, prevailed. The Nazis inherited lists of firearm owners and their firearms when they 'lawfully' took over in March 1933. The Nazis used these inherited registration lists to seize privately held firearms from persons who were not "reliable." Knowing exactly who owned which firearms, the Nazis had only to revoke the annual ownership permits or decline to renew them. In 1938, five years after taking power, the Nazis enhanced the 1928 law. The Nazi Weapons Law introduced handgun control. Firearms ownership was restricted to Nazi party members and other "reliable" people. The 1938 Nazi law barred Jews from businesses involving firearms. On November 10. 1938 -- one day after the Nazi party terror squads (the SS) savaged thousands of Jews, synagogues and Jewish businesses throughout Germany -- new regulations under the Weapons Law specifically barred Jews from owning any weapons, even clubs or knives. Given the parallels between the Nazi Weapons Law and the GCA '68, we concluded that the framers of the GCA '68 -- lacking any basis in American law to sharply cut back the civil rights of law abiding Americans -- drew on the Nazi Weapons Law of 1938. Finding the Nazi Weapons Law whetted our appetite. We wanted to know who implanted this Nazi cancer in America. We began by probing the backgrounds of lawmakers who championed gun control. We focused on those whose bills became part of GCA '68. GCA '68 as enacted closely tracks proposals dating to August 1963. We felt that if the culprit were a lawmaker -- or a congressional staffer -- he or she would know Germany, German law and possibly even speak German. He or she probably would have spent time in Germany on business or during military service. Alternatively, if the culprit were not a member of Congress or a staffer, there would be testimony at the hearings to that effect. Most potential suspects were quickly eliminated; they had no apparent ties to Germany. But one lawmaker caught our attention. An old "Who's Who" entry showed he had been a senior member of the U.S. team that prosecuted German war criminals at Nuremberg in 1945-46. Thus, he had lived in Germany just after the Nazi period. His official duties required him to look at Nazi records, including Nazi laws. In 1963 he led the effort to greatly expand the Federal Firearms Act of 1938. We then got a break. We told a legal scholar of our findings. He was intrigued. He sent us an extract from the record of hearings held a few months prior to the enactment of GCA '68. At the end of June 1968, the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee to investigate Juvenile Delinquency -- chaired by Thomas J. Dodd (D-CT) -- held hearings on bills: (1) "To Require the Registration of Firearms" (S.3604). (2) "To Disarm Lawless Persons" (S.3634) and (3) "To Provide for the Establishment of a National Firearms Registry" (S.3637), among others. U.S. Representative John Dingell (D-MI) testified at these Senate hearings on gun control. Senator Joseph D. Tydings (D-MD) chaired some of these hearings, in Dodd's absence. Rep. Dingell expressed concern that if firearms registration were required, it might lead to confiscation of firearms, as had happened in Nazi Germany. Tydings angrily accused Rep. Dingell of using "scare tactics": "Are you inferring that our system here, gun registration or licensing, would in any way be comparable to the Nazi regime in Germany, where they had a secret police, and a complete takeover?" Rep. Dingell backed away. (Hearings before the Subcommittee to Investigate Juvenile Delinquency of the Committee on the Judiciary, 90th Congress, 2nd Session, June 26, 27 and 28 and July 8, 9 and 10. 1968, pp. 479-80, 505-6 cited as Subcommittee Hearings.) Tydings later inserted into the hearing record various documents, "concerning the history of Nazism and gun confiscation." Exhibit No. 62 (see reproduction) is fascinating. This letter -- dated July 12, 1968 -- is to Subcommittee Chairman Dodd from Lewis C. Coffin, Law Librarian at the Library of Congress. Coffin wrote: " ... we are enclosing herewith a translation of the Law on Weapons of March 18, 1938, prepared by Dr. William Solyom-Fekete of [the European Law Division -- ed.] as well as the Xerox of the original German text which you supplied" (Subcommittee Hearings, p. 489, emphasis added). This letter makes it public knowledge that at the end of June 1968 -- 4 months before GCA '68 was enacted -- Senator Thomas J. Dodd, now deceased, personally owned a copy of the original German text of the Nazi Weapons Law. Why did Dodd own the original German text of any Nazi law? Why did he make known that he owned it? The Library of Congress then had (and still has) the 'Reichsgesetzblatt' in its collection. The Library of Congress translator, Dr. Solyom-Fekete, could easily have used the Library of Congress' own copy. Any member of Congress who wanted to read the Nazi Weapons Law need only have asked for it to be produced from the shelves of the Library of Congress and for it to be translated by Library of Congress experts. Why should any member of Congress ever have owned the original German text of the Nazi Weapons Law? Without access to Tom Dodd's personal papers, archived under his heirs' control, we unfortunately cannot offer definite answers. Dodd could have acquired the German text of the Nazi Weapons Law during his time at Nuremberg. But he had no need to do so. Dodd did not personally handle the prosecution of Nazi Interior Minister Wilhelm Frick, who signed the Nazi Weapons Law. The case against Frick was presented by Robert M.W. Kempner, Assistant Trial Counsel for the United States (see 'Trial of the Major War Criminals before the International Military Tribunal,' cited as TMWC, Vol. V, pp. 352-67, Nuremberg, Germany, 1947). Nor should the Nazi Weapons Law otherwise have come to Dodd's attention. The Nazi Weapons Law was not used as evidence against Frick (see Kempner's speech, TMWC, V, pp. 352-67 and 'Index of Laws, Decrees, Orders, Directives, and the Administration of Justice in Nazi Germany and Nazi Dominated Countries', TMWC, Vol. XXIII, pp. 430-33). The Nazi Weapons Law is not listed among documents submitted as evidence to the Tribunal by the American prosecutors (see Vol. XXIV, pp. 98-169). The prosecutors at Nuremberg doubtless knew of the Nazi Weapons Law. They probably saw it in the 'Reichsgesetzblatt.' On the same day that Nazi Interior Minister Frick signed the Weapons Law, March 18, 1938, he signed another law governing security measures in newly annexed Austria. This law concerning Austria appeared in the 'Reichsgesetzblatt' -- directly in front of the Weapons Law -- and was introduced into evidence at Nuremberg ('Reichsgesetzblatt' 1938, I, p. 262; the Nazi Weapons Law was published in the same volume, p. 265; see TMWC, Vol. V, p.358 for reference to law concerning Austria). Thus, the Nazi Weapons Law appeared to have no historical merit at Nuremberg and should not have attracted anyone's notice, certainly not to the extent of causing anyone to want to keep a copy of it as a separate document. If Dodd got his copy of the original German text of the Nazi Weapons Law during his time at Nuremberg, it likely was part of a collection of documents, for example, issues of the 'Reichsgesetzblatt'. But if he acquired the original German text of the Nazi Weapons Law after his service at Nuremberg, he must have done so for a very specific reason. The Nazi Weapons Law plainly did not figure at Nuremberg. We may safely conclude it had little, if any, interest for those interested in the history of the Nazis' rise to power. For example, the Nazi Weapons Law is not mentioned at all in William L. Shirer's very thorough study of Nazi Germany, 'The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich' (Simon and Schuster, New York, 1950). At the hearings held by Dodd's subcommittee at the end of June 1968, Rep. Dingell had objected to the firearms registration provision then being discussed. Dodd may have offered his copy of the Nazi Weapons Law to show that the specific proposal did not resemble anything in the Nazi law. He may not have realized that he was revealing a broader truth; that the whole fabric of GCA '68 was based on the Nazi Weapons Law, even if the specific registration proposal was not so based. Alternatively, Dodd may not have cared whether or not anyone knew that he had the German text of the Nazi Weapons Law. He doubtless knew that months would pass before the hearing record was printed and so generally available for scrutiny. Thus, even if anyone then noticed the parallels between the two laws, the bill would already have become law. Rep. Dingell does not appear to have pursued the matter: the firearms registration provision was not included in GCA '68. The Congress was stampeded on gun control by public enthusiasm. Martin Luther King had been murdered on April 4, 1968, and Robert F. Kennedy had been murdered on June 6, 1968. We are not the first to have seen this hearing record. But we appear to be the first to have recognized its importance. This hearing record suggests strongly that the late Senator Thomas J. Dodd (D-CT) himself implanted the Nazi Weapons Law into American law, or, at very least, helped others to do so. Now you know the ugly truth about the roots of GCA '68. But you need to see -- with your own eyes -- the hard evidence of the Nazi roots of gun control in America presented in 'Gun Control: Gateway to Tyranny.' If you want to destroy gun control, you can use this book to do it. You can demand the immediate repeal of the Nazi inspired GCA '68 and all state laws based on it. Of Senate Judiciary Committee members serving in 1968, only Edward M. Kennedy (D-MA) and Strom Thurmond (D-SC) are still in the Senate. Both are still members of the Judiciary Committee. In light of the evidence presented above, will they now help to repeal GCA '68? Few lawmakers will try to defend the Nazis. And, if they do, you know what to do: vote them out at the next election, or sooner, if your state's laws provide for recall elections. The Nazi Weapons Law of March 18, 1938, cleared the way for World War II and Nazi genocide against the Jews, Gypsies and 7,000,000 other people. If "Never Again" is to be a reality in America, the Nazi based GCA '68 must be erased. Now. Write to U.S. Rep. John Dingell (D-MI), U.S. House of Representatives, Washington, D.C. 20515, or telephone him at (202) 225-4071. Tell him that he was right to think that the Nazi Weapons Law of 1938 was the blueprint for GCA '68. Ask him to hold hearings to repeal GCA '68, at once. Join JPFO -- "America's Aggressive Civil Rights Organization" P.O. Box 270143, Hartford, WI. 53027, (414) 673-9745. (Annual Dues $20.00) The 1938 Nazi Weapons Law that disarmed, enslaved & murdered the men above, is alive and well in the United States, and is called, "The Gun Control act of 1968", and is enforced by the modern day gestapo, known as the "Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, & Firearms (BATF)." ) 1997, 1998, 1999 JPFO <
-- Liberty (email@example.com), October 28, 1999.
I have to disagree. If every Jew, Catholic, Gypsy, etc. that the Nazis came to take to death camps had met them with a gun in his hand, how far do you think the Nazis would have gotten? If every door they kicked down cost them one of their troops, how many less would they have had to put on the battlefield? How many less would have been available to show up at the next persons door?
And the statement "If anything, it would have exacerbated the roiling anti-Semitism of the Party faithful and whipped them into a frenzy. Rather than silent deaths in the camps, Jewish blood would have flowed in the streets. " is just flat out absurd and revisionist.
Jewish blood DID flow freely in the streets as Nazis killed them with impunity in very public places. They didn't just die behind the gates of concentration camps you know. And to suggest that it would have 'exacerbated roiling anti-Semitism' as an argument against resistence would be laughable if it weren't so serious. I mean really, how much worse could it have been when trainloads were being gassed and stuffed into ovens?
-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), October 28, 1999.
Yikes. Sorry about that. Why not just try the original:
It pretty much blows the "guns wouldn't have stopped the Nazis" fantasy (and the howling distortions at the top of this thread) out of the water. And it shows how our totalitarian wannabes are cribbing from the Nazi playbook.
People who say "you don't need those guns - let me just take them and hold on to them for you" are trying to make you defenseless. If you are a bit slow on the uptake and need a clue as to WHY they want to make you defenseless, you have only to look at what happened to the Germans, the Russians and the Chinese when they allowed "gun control" in their countries: mass murder - and other unpleasantries.
YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS FOR YOUR PROTECTION AND THE PROTECTION OF THE REPUBLIC! DON'T FALL ASLEEP! KEEP WHAT WASHINGTON CALLED YOUR "LIBERTY TEETH"
-- Liberty (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 28, 1999.
Well said, Liberty...
THE ONLY PERSON THAT WOULD WANT YOU DISARMED IS AN ENEMY!!!!!
And don't trade you God-given rights for state-granted "priveleges."
-- Patrick (email@example.com), October 28, 1999.
Does anyone have a copy of that list of countries that outlawed guns and then the corresponding death count due to tyrannical govts.?
-- matt (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 28, 1999.
If anyone's interested, there's a pretty good book published on the subject of what happens when guns are controlled.
It's written by John R. Lott, Jr. He teaches law, economics and criminal deterrence at the University of Chicago, "where he is the John M. Olin Visiting Law and Economics Fellow." This is his first book, after having published over 70 academic journal articles.
The book is "More Guns, Less Crime" publ. 1998 by the University of Chicago Press. ISBN: 0-226-49363-6
(It's one of the books in the series "Studies in Law and Economics" edited by William M. Landes and J. Mark Ramseyer.
-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moines (email@example.com), October 29, 1999.
I dont know much about Nazi's seeing it was before my time. I do know that inorder to control a populace you need to instill fear and leave them with no way to resist your control...ie Edicts. The Media is doing a fine job of that the way they protray gun owners as fanatics. If you ask me man has always found a way to kill other men regardless of the tool he used. The bottom line is this..... The 2nd Amendment says " A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed ". In the old days Militia meant the citizens of the country..thats you and I people. It doesnt say the licence , permitt or priviledge ...it says NECESSARY TO THE SECURITY OF A FREE STATE,THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" They wanted us to remain free...to keep what we won with blood. Never again did they want a government to dictate how we lived or worshiped. Each man was free to pursue freedoom long as he didnt harm or infringe upon anothers rights. I would think that is clear enough even for politicians to understand. What we need to do is enforce the laws that are on the books now. It stands to reason if you lock up the criminals that committ crimes with guns eventually the only people left with them are law abiding citizens. How much do you want to bet if we did that the crime rate would go down and the number of guns in the wrong hands would diminish also? In 63 days the clocks will tick and nobody knows if power will be on..if computers will be working. we have a global economy that is true and it could hurt us...but we dont have a global society...we are Americans we see things differently than the rest of the world. Our constitution sets us apart from every other country in the world. It doesnt matter if its y2k or y3k.
-- y2k Jack (PawTigger@aol.com), October 29, 1999.
When the Cheyenne were herded into their reservations in the 1800s, they were systematically searched for firearms. No firearms allowed. The Agency and its designated people would provide food.
One of the Northern Cheyenne breakouts occured when the Indians were on to this stripping of their arms by the United States. Consequently, upon entering the res, they stripped down revolvers- springs weaved into their hair as ornaments, pins and hammers into their medicine bags, and so on. At breakout time, the few, very few, arms were hastily reassembled, and used to help effect the escape.
-- SurroundSound (Who@goes.there), October 29, 1999.
I would rather die fighting a lost cause on my feet like a man as opposed to being murdered begging for my life on my knees in front of a ditch!
-- oboy (oboy firstname.lastname@example.org), October 29, 1999.
The Lessons Of History The Soviet Union established gun control in 1929. From 1929 to 1953, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Turkey established gun control in 1911. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Germany established gun control in 1938. From 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, mentally ill people, and other "mongrelized peoples," unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, 1 million "educated people", unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. 56 MILLION DEAD FOR WANT OF A METHOD TO DEFEND THEMSELVES EFFECTIVELY YET THERE ARE THOSE WHO INSIST "IT CAN'T HAPPEN HERE"
-- zoobie (email@example.com), October 29, 1999.
" A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Memorize it now so that you won't miss it when it goes down the memory hole.
-- nothere nothere (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 29, 1999.
"A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves and include all men capable of bearing arms To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms . . . " Richard Henry Lee, Additional Letters From the Federal Farmer 53 (1788).
"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them." George Mason, during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution (1788).
"The said Constitution be never construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." Samuel Adams, during Massachusetts's Convention to Ratify the Constitution (1788).
"What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty.... Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins."--Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, spoken during floor debate over the Second Amendment, I Annals of Congress at p. 750, August 17, 1789.
"...to disarm the people - that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." -- George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380.
-- apokoliptik (email@example.com), October 30, 1999.