go ahead and call us liars, theives, rapists whatever you want. I know damn well that you don't have a ground to stand on. How many times have we tried to get you to come to meetings and had no one show up, how many questionaires have we sent out and received none back. Now there's gonna be this huge revolt against us, because we don't listen to the people. Well i've been listening for a while and I can tell you that I must be deaf, because I haven't heard a word out of you. You don't have the slightest clue about what it takes to make essential decisions, and now you want to make them all. So be it. You don't trust the legislature and government to do anything. You curse them and in the same breath say that they will fix things before the state goes to hell. Do you trust us or not. I can't believe that you are going to vote for such a flawed piece of legislature. you all make real convincing arguments, philosophically, that is with the exception of zowie who has no clue. What happens if government doesn't fix the problem, what happens if local governments can't recover from the average 15% hit? Unfortunately a service will have to be cut and chances are you may rely on it. think about it

-- tax man (protax@wuh.com), October 28, 1999

Answers

You mis-spelled *#@$%&*!& so how can we trust you?

It ain't gonna be easy for our legislators to respond to this tax relief, 'cause we've taken away their usual response of raising other taxes. They had the opportunity and responsibilty to draft an alternative to I-695 and place it alongside I-695 on the ballot but they did not. Probably could not have reached consensus. And it is still not going to be easy for them to reach consensus on how to reallocate spending priorities. The MVET cash cow funded lots of important local programs that should have been locally funded all along, and may well have to be funded that way in the future. We need to support our representatives who are going to need all the help they can get to adjust state spending.

-- Art Rathjen (liberty@coastaccess.com), October 28, 1999.

"you all make real convincing arguments, philosophically, that is with the exception of zowie who has no clue. " Clue? Clue?? Whatsa clue?? zowie (who ain't got a clue but will outvote YOU)

-- zowie (zowie@hotmail.com), October 28, 1999.

hell no I don't trust you, all I have to do is look at Safeco(taxpayer) Field to answer that, and RTA, and the ferry system, state liquor stores, the Kingdome , King County symbol change...shall I go on. Jesus is it that hard to prioritize, or is that drive to be re-elected that strong. Every penny of tax, puts people closer and closer to the edge, you guys ought to be coming up with ways to run more effeciently, with less people, for less money every year as far as I'm concerned.

-- no chance (kingoffools_99@yahoo.com), October 28, 1999.

I'm personally willing to bet oh, say, $92,287, that tax man is "right on the money".

Both from the Us vs. Them mentality of the maddjak army in this forum vis-a-vis Washington State Government, and from the people who keep showing up in the forum saying "I think I-695 is great how do I get out of paying my tabs before Jan 1st oh and by the way WHERE DO I GO TO REGISTER TO VOTE I'VE NEVER DONE THAT SORT OF THING BEFORE etc etc etc" that the majority of I-695 supporters are the type who complain about Big Bad Government but *do not realize that citizens are supposed to be as much an ACTIVE part of government as elected officials* and, since so many of them seem to not know "jakk"-s**t about the voting process ("how do I register to vote so's I can get them thar cheap tabs?" -- excuse me while I chortle), it's safe to assume that these same people *WILL NOT* take active part in the full- time job that voting on tax increases will become if I-695 passes!

One thing's for certain: anyone who votes for I-695 should be barred from calling up 911 in the middle of the night when the burglar/heart attack/natural disaster comes a-callin'.

Let the $127 you save from the MVET save you when the Big One finally hits Puget Sound.

And if you've already gone and spent it on "a newer, less-polluting (excuse me while I chortle) SUV", well, hey -- don't come crying to me!

-- Jeff Stevens (chez@u.washington.edu), October 28, 1999.

Larry--"go ahead and call us liars, theives, rapists whatever you want."

I think you forgot murderers, child molesters and (Godwin's law) Nazis benton destruction.

"You don't have the slightest clue about what it takes to make essential decisions, and now you want to make them all."

Given the incisive argument you just presented, I'm quite confident in your ability to make the "essential decisions."

Why don't you take your ball and go home?

"Unfortunately a service will have to be cut and chances are you may rely on it. think about it"

I see you're a bit late into these discussions. . .already did this.

-- Brad (knotwell@my-deja.com), October 28, 1999.

"Why don't take your ball and go home"

Hey Westin, are you now suffering from the same fits of schizophrenia (Hi, Spellmeister!) which I've been accused of suffering?

-- Ronald Wilson Something or um..where am I?..what..um...is...um.. (chez@u.washington.edu), October 28, 1999.

love the ideas jeff, want some cheese with that wine. Maybe we could have a intelligence test before people are allowed to vote, or maybe own property...yeah thats a good....oops yah know isn't that illegal, and maybe dare i say a little HOLIER THAN THOU. Just because some people don't fit your jack-booted idea of the perfect voter does not mean their voice isn't any less important than yours. I think you just had it too easy the last few years, and thanks to absentee ballots more and more people from all over are going to vote, and if this is their first vote good for them. Welcome to the club.

vote yes on I-695 goverment that governs least, governs best

-- no chance (kingoffools_99@yahoo.com), October 28, 1999.

Do we trust you? Should we automatically trust government? No Way! Our very history is based upon individuals standing up to the governments that DO NOT represent the citizens. I am talking about the government bureaucrats and agencies, not the elected officials. I-695 is our modern day Boston Tea Party and we are ready to board the boats on Tuesday, November 2nd!

-- Kent (primalonekg@yahoo.com), October 29, 1999.

king of fools (indeed),

The issue is not who's "worthy" to vote, but who's *willing* to act upon their "give control back to the people" rhetoric and *willing* to exercise the civic responsibility they (apparently) claim to desire along with the (oh boy!) "savings" they stand to gain from I-695.

Don't even try to paint me as a "whiny cheesy liberal", KOF, because I'm ADVOCATING that ALL of us put our (well, YOUR, at least!) saved MVET money where our (your) mouths are and FOLLOW THROUGH on the I-695 Section 2 mandate. I just can't help the feeling that the majority of I-695ers are voting strictly with their wallets and NOT with any sense of civic responsibilty.

If you'll be at the booths every time an election is held to raise revenues for 911 dispatchers, post-earthquake infrastructure repair, textbooks "for the children", etc. then more power to you, I salute you even. I *will* be there too, so don't even dare calling me "another hypocrite 695 opponent" cause it won't stick.

I betcha though that most yes-695 voters will drive their "new, less-polluting" SUV's right by them thar polling places once they've got them thar cash savings in hand.

Check back here in a year or so, we'll see who's right or wrong about this then.

Will this website still be around a year from now? If enough people are pissed off at Tim Eyman for his "populist" snowjob....

you betcha!

"Never have so few had so much to explain to so many..."

Senator "Al Gore" Westin, 2007

-- Jeff Stevens (chez@u.washington.edu), October 29, 1999.

Civic responsiblity??? How CAN we be that when gov't's handling all that? I put my money where my mouth is. Even if this had nothing to do with the tabs, I'd vote for it. I also paid my 120 dollar tab fees this year, not to gov't, but to the YES ON 695 campaign.

None of the socialists in this forum want to answer the question about if they want the service, then why don't THEY pay for it? Why do they have to force people who don't want or use it to pay for it? I'm not trying to force THEM to pay for a computer for ME. I'm not trying to make them pay for my children's schooling. I'm not trying to make them buy my family's food. These are all essentials, aren't they? Aren't they a right???? Oh, and are you No on 695-ers going to put YOUR money where YOUR mouthes are? Since you're so concerned about losing all those services (which you won't), I'm sure we can all count on you to do the right thing and continue paying your tab fees, right? Uhh, yeah, sure, THAT'll happen.

695 WILL PASS.

-- Paula (eagleross@pioneernet.net), October 29, 1999.

Paula:

You keep calling those of us opposed to 695 socialists, but from the post above you sound like an old fashioned anarchist. Would no government please you? Move to that third world village I have mentioned before, where no government services are provided. No pavement, no police of fire protection, no taxes, no water system, no jobs, no health care, etc. We get services for our taxes that create the social economy you live in. Control taxes by being involved, yes. Cut taxes with no concern about the consequences, no. 695 is a bad idea. If it passes, we will all regret it.

-- dbvz (dbvz@wa.freei.net), October 29, 1999.

This is for Jeff: Don't bother calling 911 when the "Big One" hits Seattle. 911 can respond well to individual and limited emergencies. But when the "Big One" hits Seattle, you will rely on help from your neighbors and volunteers who have practiced emergency preparedness. Big government is not going to be able to respond, but individuals will. It would be great if everyone who is capable would become trained, equipped, and become a Community Emergency Response Team (CERT)volunteer. Government can't do it, but we the people can!

-- Art Rathjen (liberty@coastaccess.com), October 29, 1999.

Art,

I am in complete agreement with you on that point; however, what I was alluding to by invoking "the Big One" was the long-term project of rebuilding infrastructure which would, being such a massive undertaking, have to be seen to at a higher level than the grass- roots. This is where government (as in services) by for & of the people comes in; this is where taxation shows that it does have its virtues and does benefit "the little guy".

The anti-tax people refuse to understand this and keep painting the social safety net as being strictly for "a buncha commie freeloaders" and refuse to acknowledge that, more often than not, it DOES benefit ALL of us.

As for the issue of "government waste", well, gee-willikers: as I asked at the top of a thread here over two months ago and STILL have not gotten a straight answer from the Would-Be Boston Tea Party crowd:

Why wasn't I-695 designed SPECIFICALLY to eliminate government waste?

i.e., SPECIFIC programs, and not just some phantomic "liberal" bugaboo.

What even the proponents admit I-695 will do is to eliminate ESSENTIAL services *first*, and then, MAYBE the Evil Bureaucratic Empire will "shift the numbers" and the poor little kitty (aka the Washington State economy) which I-695 has thrown off the roof will land on its feet.

I've got twenty dollars in my pocket to buy food for the week, but if Tim Eyman gives me a convincing enough "populist" pitch, I just might buy the Brooklyn Bridge from him with that twenty dollars.

But I still ain't voting for The Snowjob.

-- Jeff Stevens (chez@u.washington.edu), October 29, 1999.

"But I still ain't voting for The Snowjob. " Although he certainly voted for the CENSORED (for President).

-- zowie (zowie@hotmail.com), October 29, 1999.

Jeff I can only try to answer your 2 mon old question, I am not an economy major, nor am I on the budget commitee. I would guess the reason is that if you were going to "WASTE" money you want to do it out of the general fund or allow counties to tax locally. If your looking for real programs, and you can take the heat of activists, unions, businesses and concerned constituents...how about the king dome, Safeco Field, state run ferries,state liquor stores,king county symbol change, washington state name sake change, hondo the sea lion....jeff i could go on and on and there are other posts on this lists that even have monetary values. I haven't even started on school vouchers and the WEA. I think it comes down to a personal choice as to what kind of goverment you want. I am only going to call 911 for an ambulance, and someone to clean up the mess. If you are willing to bet your life that someone will come save you, go ahead. When " the big on comes " I personally will continue to take care of myself, regardless of when the goverment wakes up

-- no chance (kingoffools_99@yahoo.com), October 29, 1999.