$1.1 Billion Reasons To Vote Yes On I-695!

Health Services Center (Add 4th Elevator) $ 7,119,034 Tumwater Records Center (Expansion) $ 2,800,000 Non-Hwy and Off Road Vehicle Activities Program $ 44,001,290 Building For The Arts $ 21,600,000 Farm Worker Housing Assistance $ 40,000,000 Heritage Park(Development) $ 20,379,774 Capitol Lake Management Plan $ 11,725,000 Historic Structure and Land Use Stewardship Prgrm $ 42,000,000 Washington Wildlife and Recreation Program $364,448,262 Statewide Fencing Renovation and Construction $ 5,678,070 Trust Land Transfer $322,700,000 Superintendent of Public Instruction (5 Coordinators) $ 9,263,000 WSU Apparel, Merchandise and Interior Design Bldg. $ 30,698,000 WSU Museum of Art Bldg. $ 14,225,000 CWU Music Facility $ 28,216,372 Clover Park Tech. (Transportation Trades Bldg) $ 18,750,000 Clover Park Tech. (Aviation Trades Complex) $ 12,000,000 Highline Community (21st Century Careers Center) $ 18,017,000 Issaquah Hatchery Interpretive Display $ 4,820,955 Watchable Wildlife Program $ 900,000 Boating Facilities $ 68,348,380

Gee, Do you think we can eliminate or reduce some or all of these to fund basic services like fire and police if I-695 passes? Those of you that oppose I-695 probably believe it is okay to spend 7 million dollars on an elevator. Give me the 7 million and I'll carry people up and down the stairs!

-- Tony McCreary (eagleross@pioneernet.net), October 28, 1999

Answers

gee do you think some of these projects may have been federally funded and if the money wasn't spent, it would go to another state. personally I like living in a state with more than just essential services. You have also failed to mention the amount of revenue these places bring in from tourism etc.

-- theman (theman@wuzzup.net), October 28, 1999.

To theman. If that really is your name.

Some of these projects may have federal matching funds and you know that's one more reason why we need to start to work on taking our money back from the federal government after I-695 passes! P.S. How many tourists do you think may be coming here to see a 7 million dollar elevator?

-- Tony McCreary (eagleross@pioneernet.net), October 28, 1999.

I would rather ride in a 7 mil. elevator than on your back. and as far as the federal funds and the match, not all matches are hard.

-- theman (theman@wuzzup.net), October 28, 1999.

To theman: The point of showing all these expenditures is that there is no true financial need to first cut ESSENTIAL services after 695 passes. Even if there are matching funds from Uncle Sam, some of the money is state funding. Let's look at non-essential services first, then (if it's REALLY necessary) at police, fire medic one, etc...

-- just a guy (torijosh@yahoo.com), October 28, 1999.

Whoa,,, there, theman..

You are riding on my back,, and the backs of all the tax paying people in this country!!! If we would back off of the free money, state or local maybe we would get tax relief from all sides.

-- rons (ron1@televar.com), October 28, 1999.

Tony, perhaps you can point me in the direction of where you got your numbers. Some of them look a little inflated to me as I look through the Capital Budget as passed by the legislature.

For starters that elevator was $6.1 million not $7.1, Tumwater Records Center: $250,000 not $2.8 million, Nonhighway and Off-Road Vehicle Activities Program $7 million not $44 million, Building for the Arts $5.6 million not $21.6 million, Farmworker Housing Assistance $8 million not $40 million, Heritage Park $3.6 million not $20 million, (I couldn't find the Capitol Lake Plan but I think it was included in the previous $3.6 milion), Historic Structure Program $6.5 million not $42 million, WA Wildlife Program $48 million not $364 million, Statewide Fencing $500,000 not $5.6 million, Trust Land Transfer $72 million not $322 million, I wasn't sure on the OSPI people but I believe it was $1.6 million not $9.2 million, WSU Apparel Building $2.78 million not $30 million, WSU Museum of Arts Bldg $125,000 not $14.2 million, CWU Music Facility $2.3 million not $28 million, Clover Park Tech Transport Bldg $1.2 million not $18 million, Clover Park Aviation Complex $4.7 million not $12 million, Highline 21st Century Center $117,000 not $18 million, Issaquah Hatchery improvements $3.2 million not $4.8 million (and this is for more than just a display), Watchable Wildlife Program $100,000 not $900,000, and Boating Facilities $8.4 million not $68 million.

Now Tony, I don't want to call you a liar, but by the records I've seen, it seems to me that you inflated EVERY SINGLE ONE of those project numbers. I didn't add up your numbers, but since you said $1.1 billion I guess I could try to trust you there. But by my figures the same programs you mentioned actually only add up to $182 million dollars, or about $900 million LOWER than what you said.

Can you account for that difference there Tony? I mean I'd really hate to think that you just looked up some programs and lied about how much they cost. Isn't that what the opponents are supposed to be doing?

-- Patrick (patrick1142@yahoo.com), October 28, 1999.

Nice try Patrick, however, you need to go back and look at the budget again. You're looking at it with your socialist glasses on. Put on your objective glasses. Even if you were right, would you think that a 6.1 million dollar elevator made sense? Oh and by the way did you forget the almost certain cost overruns?

For those of you who want to check the numbers out for yourself, go to the Governer's web site.

-- Tony McCreary (eagleross@pioneernet.net), October 28, 1999.

Federal money....somebody is gonna get it, might as well be us....wake up people its always was your money. It amazes me that you just send that tax return in every year, and don't seem to care how, or where it is spent.

-- no chance (kingoffools_99@yahoo.com), October 28, 1999.

Tony:

Why don't you answer the question Patrick asked? Can you justify your numbers or not?

-- dbvz (dbvz@wa.freei.net), October 28, 1999.

Nope dbvz he can't. If anyone is interested in checking the numbers like I did you can find them at the legislature's web site here http:/ /leap.leg.wa.gov/lbn99secVI.pdf (you need Acrobat Reader) or you can take Tony up on his offer to check the Governor's numbers here http:// www.ofm.wa.gov/budget99/hilites/80capital.htm

Either way the numbers are the same, and since Tony is apparently sticking by his numbers, I guess he can officially be called a liar. Don't you like how he tries to shift attention away? Well maybe he lied about it being a $7 million elevator, but what about $6 million? And I suppose when he inflated the Farmworker Housing Assistance by FIVE times its actual cost that was okay too, and for that matter EVERY OTHER number that he inflated.

You can call me a socialist all you want Tony. It doesn't change the fact that you deliberately attempted to DRASTICALLY inflate several budget items to prove your point. If they already cost too much, then why did you decide that you had to raise their total price NINE TIMES the actual cost?!?!

Funny, when opponents make a claim based on a high side of an estimate they're lying and using false scare tactics. But when the supporters WAY over-inflate their numbers on how much government waste there is, it's okay because hey, it's for a good cause.

Sorry Tony, but I'm going to have to use the liar-liar pants on fire

-- Patrick (patrick1142@yahoo.com), October 28, 1999.

To the socialist twins Patrick and Dbvz (or whomever)

Clip and paste this into your address bar, then click governor, budget/policy and budget highlights:

http://infoseek.go.com/? win=_search&sv=M6&lk=noframes&nh=10&ud9=IE5&qt=%22Washington+State% 22&oq=&url=http% 3A//www.piperinfo.com/state/slwa.html&ti=State+and+Local+Government+on +the+Net%3A+Washington&top=

The numbers don't lie, however, as with most socialists you have missed the point. WE DON'T WANT YOU SPENDING "ANY" OF OUR MONEY!!! Now quit bugging me you're keeping me from educating the rest of your mind-numbed socialist comrades.

-- Tony McCreary (eagleross@pioneernet.net), October 29, 1999.

I see when tested that url it didn't work (like yours) this one should do it.

http://www.ofm.wa.gov/budget99/hilites/contents.htm

-- Tony McCreary (eagleross@pioneernet.net), October 29, 1999.

Patrick The info about the Elevator is at this site

http://www.ofm.wa.gov/budget99/capital/360detl.htm

Health Sciences Center BB Tower Elevators Funds for adding a fourth elevator to the building Prior Biennium 699,499 Current Biennium 143,849 Reappropriations 93,100 Appropriations 6,182,586 Future Cost Total Cost 7,119,034

Phase Start Date / End Date Phase Cost Predesign 06-01-96 / 01-01-97 192,750 Design 03-01-97 / 09-01-00 860,500 Construction 10-01-00 / 05-01-02 4,751,050 Other 05-01-02 / 05-06-02 378,286

Funds: State Building Construction Account  State Total Cost 7,119,034

You can also find the other totals here, but it takes a little digging. I found this the other day, then couldn't find it till this morning.

Section B: Agency Detail

http://www.ofm.wa.gov/budget99/capital/capagy.htm

Ed - "it's a dirty, thankless job but somebody has to do it". Joe Friday

-- Ed (ed_bridges@yahoo.com), October 29, 1999.

Patrick

sorry about the formatting

The info about the Elevator is at this site

http://www.ofm.wa.gov/budget99/capital/360detl.htm

Health Sciences Center BB Tower Elevators Funds for adding a fourth elevator to the building

Prior Biennium 699,499 Current Biennium 143,849 Reappropriations 93,100

Appropriations 6,182,586

Future Cost

Total Cost 7,119,034

Phase Start Date / End Date Phase Cost

Predesign 06-01-96 / 01-01-97 192,750

Design 03-01-97 / 09-01-00 860,500

Construction 10-01-00 / 05-01-02 4,751,050

Other 05-01-02 / 05-06-02 378,286

Funds: State Building Construction Account  State

Total Cost 7,119,034

You can also find the other totals here, but it takes a little digging. I found this the other day, then couldn't find it till this morning.

Section B: Agency Detail

http://www.ofm.wa.gov/budget99/capital/capagy.htm

Ed - "it's a dirty, thankless job but somebody has to do it". Joe Friday

-- Ed (ed_bridges@yahoo.com), October 29, 1999.

Thanks Ed! I'm glad some of us know how to do our homework. Now that that's settled, I need to go do my daily "yes on 695" paper blitz!

Hey, comrades, I'll be thinking about you with every sign I put up!!

-- Tony McCreary (eagleross@pioneernet.net), October 29, 1999.

Well thanks for pointing out that the links didn't work. I guess I'll have to post the URL for the main page http://leap.leg.wa.gov/lbn99.htm You can find all of the projects that Tony and I quoted under Section VI Capital Budget. I'm actually quite surprised that he continues to try and perpetuate this lie of his, because even under the link that he provided you can plainly see that he inflated the numbers.

But in case you just want to use quick common sense, the Capital Budget this biennium is about $2.3 billion dollars and I'd estimate that there are anywhere between 250 and 300 projects. Now Tony provided a list of 21 projects and under his numbers this group takes up almost HALF of the budget. Were these the 21 most expensive projects? No, actually they're a fairly average sample. Hmm, do 8% of the projects really take up 50% of the budget? Why not check the link to find out?

I'm not missing the point Tony. You claim that the people don't want the state to spend ANY taxpayer money. That is an extreme claim that I doubt even a majority of the people on this board would agree with you on. You also make the claim that by eliminating the programs you listed, $1.1 billion would be saved. As anyone who takes the time to review the numbers can see, this is a completely false claim. You could have avoided this entire thing had you just used the real numbers. Sure, it would have only been $182 million, but hey, it's a start. Instead, you deliberately doctored the numbers in an attempt to make your argument sound better. The fact that you so grossly inflated your numbers just compounds the issue. Don't you get it? We're just supposed to focus on your argument and ignore the fact that ALL of the figures you used to support it were lies? Yeah, right.

But by all means continue to use this same tactic to educate "the rest of your mind-numbed socialist comrades." I'm sure they'll all be so swayed by your use of figures that you inflated one hundred times the actual amount to prove your point.

-- Patrick (patrick1142@yahoo.com), October 29, 1999.

Thanks Ed for clearing that up. Turns out Tony isn't inflating the figures, he's just taking them out of context by using the total (and eventual) cost of the projects. Sure we could save $1.1 billion by cutting these programs, but we will have to wait about 5, 10, even 20 years for it all to add up. Of course the over $1 billion figure that the state will lose is factored on a yearly basis, so to be fair, in that time that we would save $1.1 billion, the state will lose over $10 billion. But in reality, even if we were to cut all those programs today, it STILL wouldn't add up to $1.1 billion over time. See, the total cost factors in all past, present, and future funding. So that $5.6 million fencing program, half of it has already been spent over the last 4 years.

So again, Tony just took some numbers that are stretched out over about 10 years and squished them all together. Kind of like me saying that I would save $14,000 if I stopped buying a latte every morning (for the next 20 years).

-- Patrick (patrick1142@yahoo.com), October 29, 1999.

"Kind of like me saying that I would save $14,000 if I stopped buying a latte every morning (for the next 20 years). " Man..... you got one SERIOUS caffeine problem there. Join the group, man. Come to our meetings. One day at a time.

-- zowie (zowie@hotmail.com), October 29, 1999.

Patrick

You posted "Kind of like me saying that I would save $14,000 if I stopped buying a latte every morning (for the next 20 years)."

Is this a mis-print. I could save $14,000 in only 5 years. Tried giving them up one time, lasted about 2 months. Saved about $300. Spent the money foolishly. Went back to the triple shot 20oz. moccas. Makes it hard to type when your shaking so bad, but there are worse things.

P.S. theres a support group?

Ed - just give me the grounds, can't wait for the water

-- Ed (ed_bridges@yahoo.com), October 29, 1999.

You guys must be on the lattes, I'm impressed, you little Enegizer Bunnies, you! Tony is my fiancee and I happen to know that he only stopped at that figure because it would take way too long to list all the rest of the pork, but anyone can go see the rest for themselves.

Who cares if the total number is over a few years?? The first numbers are wasteful enough. Besides, what Tony listed was only a small EXAMPLE.

-- Paula (eagleross@pioneernet.net), October 30, 1999.

You socialist must have been up to your old tricks to get my fiancee to come on and take you to task. Hold on let me look back to see what you said ... Well, I should have figured, Patrick is up to his usual tricks. Poor guy, now he admits that my numbers are correct but he wants us to believe that somehow it's ok because the 7 million dollar elevator is going to take a year and a half to complete. Didn't I tell you and you're socialist twin dbvzvzbdvzb to quit bugging me so that I can continue the good fight. Patrick, Patrick, Patrick let me say this one more time so you will understand. When I said we don't want people like you spending our money that is exactly what I meant. PEOPLE LIKE YOU who defend every dollar the government spends. If you decide to respond again, try to come up with something new. However, be very afraid if you make my fiancee mad!

-- Tony (eagleross@pioneernet.net), October 30, 1999.

Patrick, "Kind of like me saying that I would save $14,000 if I stopped buying a latte every morning (for the next 20 years). " Wouldn't a better example be "kind of like the 'No on I-695' mailing that says '$7.0 billion from the state's transportation budget'"

-- Wayne (wsmith@precisionimages.com), October 30, 1999.

What? No more responses? The batteries must have died!

-- Paula (eagleross@pioneernet.net), October 31, 1999.

What? No more responses? The batteries must have died!

-- Paula (eagleross@pioneernet.net), October 31, 1999.

Paula

Sorry, was out residing the house, mowing the lawn, changing the oil on the car, figured that wasn't good enough so rebuilt the engine, installed new carpet and seats in the wifes car (spilt some of my quad shot super big gulp mocca on the leather), washed, buffed, and waxed the '99 SuperDuty F-250 4x4 Lariat Supercab leather interior V-10 auto trans, back in the house, I shampooed the carpet, feed the dogs (Akitas) change channels on the T.V. about 1000 times, picked up a pizza, make 2 pots of iced tea, whew.

Then I sat down a just finished watching 2 X-File shows. Next I'll continue on with one of 20 books I'm reading now (true), listen to some Art Bell. Then about 2 am I go to sleep.

Ed - fridge full of Joot. just for emergencies, you know Y2K and all that.

-- Ed (ed_brigdes@yahoo.com), November 01, 1999.