OT: Ayn Rand and the perversion of libertarianism

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The more I read the better I understand where this board is trying to go. This is rather long so I leave you with a little snippet.LINK

(Snip)

Libertarians must stop courting the Republican right and return to their intellectual roots. By standing outside of the political process we deny the state legitimacy, and like the state tortur- ers in Atlas Shrugged, they will come and beg for libertarians to take over.

Remembering the experience of the Spanish libertarians, and heeding the advice of John Galt, libertarians must refuse state power even when begged. The state can never be a tool of libera- tion. Only its complete and utter collapse will allow for the emergence of non-statist institutions, libertarian coops, com- munes, and free markets, to flourish and displace the political state once and for all.

-- y2k dave (xsdaa111@hotmail.com), October 24, 1999

Answers

"...and displace the political state once and for all."

Once and for all? How, with a 'war to end all wars'?

Nope, not likely.

I do like the part about denying the state its legitamacy though...

-- Will Huett (willhuett@usa.net), October 24, 1999.


"Libertarians must stop courting the Republican right..."

I agree completely! The Republicans are NOT our friends (and neither are the Democrats for that matter).

In that vein, here is another link that you might find interesting:

The Voluntaryist

-- -- (--@--.--), October 24, 1999.


Here, here!! Y2K Dave....

What you are stating, however, will not be well received, for the training is very intense from the cradle for people to "believe" in "reform",...and that "government" has motivation to "reform" itself. It is rather like the notion put forth that the police "want" to put an end to crime. Really, they do? And put themselves out of a job?

Systems theory. No such thing as change from within....and the bestest way to take the wind out of the sails of "revolutionaries" is to "invite them inside".

Many, many people live "outside the system", and like it just fine. At the end of the "governmental experiment" they will go on living just fine.

The only way to win is not to play. Refuse to give over your precious energy, time and talent in ANY way....

Not a popular opinion, I know, but once examined made the only sense to me.

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), October 24, 1999.


Donna : three cheers!

Perry

-- Perry Arnett (pjarnett@pdqnet.net), October 24, 1999.


Y2k Dave--I think your ideas are too purist. Nature abhors a vacuum. Power will flow into the vacuum of a powerless state and chances are it will be a corrupt, tyrannical power. This could take the form of a corrupt superstate or an aggregate of local tyrannies controlled by the strongest and most ruthless warlords, Mafiosi or gangbangers. It seems to me that what is needed is a self-limited state as designed by Jefferson et al and that Libertarians should not cop out by advocating a utopian anarchy but instead provide the principled leadership of a constitutional republic.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), October 24, 1999.


Excellent point Lars. Though I refer to myself in this forum as Howard Roark I've never agreed entirely with the Ayn Rand philosophy. She was however no friend of the Libertarians. Near the end of her life she considered them radical college kids trying to legalize drugs and shrouding that objective in a right leaning agenda. Like any political stream of thought there are varying degrees and healthy dissent. Ask a libertarian if he would drive his family over a bridge that no one had inspected? Charles Murray has a book out (out for a year or two) What it means to be a libertarian. It's pretty good and lays out a few reasonable scenarios for a more libertarian form of government. In the end we must agree that a rule of law is necessary and thus a constitution. Atlas Shrugged has a happy ending but remember it's a work of fiction. Standing on the sidelines is great when there's a happy ending, but what if you don't live that long? The only thing possible now is to jump in and help those who can most help us. A is A. Republicans and Democrats are in power. A is A. The news media are almost all Democrats. A is A. Democrats are Socialists.

-- (roark@not.now), October 24, 1999.

This is an interesting little argument - but the 'libertarians' in Spain were known to themselves and the rest of the world as 'Anarchists'.

Some of my best friends are libertarians, but ... it doesn't take any great debating skills to find the weak points in their logic.

-- kermit (colourmegreen@hotmail.com), October 24, 1999.


My experience with folks self-identified as 'libertarians' is that you can boil down their position to this: "We just want OUR form of government." Same old nonsense...

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), October 24, 1999.

"What is morality?" she asked.

"Judgment to distinguish right and wrong, vision to see the truth, courage to act upon it, dedication to that which is good, integrity to stand by the good at any price."

Atlas Shrugged

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), October 25, 1999.


"Judgment [in whose judgement?]to distinguish right and wrong [in whose opinion? And who determines that and how will they "coerce" others into agreeing with their version?], vision [whose perspective?]to see the truth [whose truth?], courage to act upon it [at whose expense?], dedication to that which is good [whose definition of good?], integrity to stand by the good at any price [Incarceration? Death? Whose?]."

Rand and the rest of them kneejerk absolutists make me sick. And it really scares me that their the ones with the guns and the attitude. If Y2K blows up and the Libertarian anarchists and flaming Fundies take over....well, the dark ages only lasted 1000 years.

-- (Aynsux@Fountainhead.Arrrgh), October 25, 1999.



"Ask a libertarian if he would drive his family over a bridge that no one had inspected?"

You are probably right in one sense. Few, if any, would drive over the uninspected bridge, IMO. But how would the bridge owner make any money then? If people view his product as unsafe they probably won't use it. Hence the bridge owner goes out of business for lack of income (i.e. toll charges).

-- -- (--@--.--), October 25, 1999.


>> "What is morality?" she asked.

"Judgment to distinguish right and wrong, vision to see the truth, courage to act upon it, dedication to that which is good, integrity to stand by the good at any price." [quoting Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged] <<

Gee. Morality means doing good stuff. How insightful!

How this series of truisms, nostrums and buzz words establishes the worth of Ayn's political philosophy, I just can't fathom. It amounts to stirring oratory and nothing else.

Am I the only one who read this and thought it sounded like any good politician wrapping herself in Mom and Apple Pie?

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), October 25, 1999.


>> Few, if any, would drive over the uninspected bridge, IMO. But how would the bridge owner make any money then? If people view his product as unsafe they probably won't use it. Hence the bridge owner goes out of business for lack of income (i.e. toll charges). <<

LOL. Until I read this I didn't know that arguments came shrink-wrapped!

Look. Any budding John D. Rockafellers out there could tell you that the essential ingredient here is that the *perception* of safety is far cheaper than the *reality*. When profits run the show, the cheapest option that makes the sale wins every time. As long as the bridge pays for itself and makes money before it collapses, the operator can just pack his bags and head for Tahiti.

Listen, putting our lives and safety in the hands of people who place profit ahead of everything else has been tried before. Read Upton Sinclair's novel The Jungle. Read some Thorstein Veblen. Or read some *history* for goodness sake! Ayn's ideas only sound good when carefully placed in Ayn's fictional world, where she gets to write the outcomes.

Ever notice how Atlas Shrugged doesn't even acknowledge the existance of children or the elderly, or explain how they will compete for survival? If Full-Blown Ayn Randism ever prevailed, sweat shops, child labor, and private armies would sprout like mushrooms after a rain. What a refreshing prospect!

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), October 25, 1999.


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