Things are not always easy to understand, like Allen Greenspan, Y2K and the symbols of america in the bible. AHHHH, But one needs not neglect the greatest road map for the world at all times in history.It is a better than guide than any other, or ever will be.


Revelation 13:11 John says,After describing all the other beast he had seen continues- and I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth;and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon.

A careful thought and study that this is a symbol of Protestant America. Is there any reason why we should expect that the United States would be mentioned in bible prophecy? First the USA has acted a prominent part in the world history;and second, and above all, they have had jurisdiction over, or maintained important relations Gods people.

Timeline of USA: There is no doubt " that coming up" means that it is seperated from all other powers, that has broken off or come out of other powers that were. In 1798 after all the other powers had ceased and the Leopard beast which is Rome and the papacy was cutoff or in this case captured by the French in 1798.

The struggle for Americas independence began in 1775. In 1776 thwy declared themselves a free and independant nation In 1777, delegates from the colonies in congress , and adopted Articles of Confederation. In 1773, the War of Revelotion closed with a peace treaty with Great Britian. In 1787, the Constitution was framed, and by July 1788, it was ratified by the the eleven orginal States: The 1st, of March 1789, and went into effect. The United States was fifteen years in the past when it came into prophecy. The prophet saw only peace.The peoples had peace without relegious strife_ They had borne the banners of the cross.

Please read Revelations 13: 11 thro.18, and you will see the United States as it sits today, Exercisering all its power around the world, causing fire to come down from heaven in war, finincial power to starve or eat according to the whelms of the elite. The United States is now and has been for years, speaking as a dragon, Perscuting its own people and lowly people around the world.

There is some questions to be asked; Who is now fighting to hold its power, even warring with God over life and death and the true ruler over man and the earth.

The USA has challenged Almighty God- The end will be short as the battle is taken up in heaven. Wow unto anyone that sees neither a beast, and says peace peace.


-- Lon (, October 21, 1999


And so the USA is evil. It is the great Satan. And all who live here are evil. You are evil, I am evil, Eval Knieval is evil.

-- Saveus (fromthose@whowould.saveus), October 21, 1999.


Of course, I don't know...but...IMO, I suspect the USA if mentioned at all is the "wings of an eagle" that carried away some jews from the troubles. Remember, the bible story focuses on the jews....God's "chosen"....therefor...the players most likely to have major parts in the unfolding events are likely to be seen from how they relate to or stand against Isreal. I don't think the USA is the "beast" you are refering to....since it is unlikely to be the military aggressor against Isreal. Since we're likely to be of help to Isreal, think we would be the "wings of an Eagle"...that carried some to safety. Just my guess, FWIW. Think it best to have an "Isreal centric" view when interpreting Revelations....when one tries to identify the players, rather than a "USA centric" view.

Best wishes,

-- Genius (, October 21, 1999.

The God Simulator

-- -- (--@--.--), October 21, 1999.

Paging Mark Hillyard....paging Mark Hillyard....please use the white courtesy phone to educate these folks about the true identity of the American and British peoples.

America is not THE beast described in Revelation. True, we have become an ungodly beast of a nation, but we shall be obliterated in the coming Tribulation, it is our Judgement coming home to roost.

The beast spoken of in Revelation, and the Dragon mentioned therin, is the final ressurection of the Holy Roman Empire, in a hasty unification of Western nations via corrupt bankers as a result of incredible turmoil (Nebuchadnezzar's vision of the statue that had feet made of iron and clay mixed, found in Daniel). All speculation is that this union of 10 nations or groups of nations has been forged together under diress to form a coalition. Iron and clay do not mix, and the reason for the symbology is that Europe and the Western World (excluding the U.S. and Britain) have never gotten along. Only a unifying religion will encapsulate all nations together under this "beast".

The descendants of Ephraim and Mannassah will be destroyed and the remnant taken into captivity because they indeed have challenged Almighty God, and corrupted His benevolence on our nations.

The Proud will indeed be brought low.


-- INVAR (, October 21, 1999.

America in Revelations 12:

012:001 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 012:002 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

012:003 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

012:004 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

012:005 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

012:006 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Perhasp, the woman is Liberty and her son is the Second Coming of Christ.

-- Bill P (, October 21, 1999.

I'm sure the government is very flattered to have citizens who consider the nation the be all and end all to the existence of life, however, since the globe could release every nuclear weapon parts of China would continue on. America is not the be all and the end all to or of the universe. It is but one of many nations.

I think some people in America really exist in the crises of the syndrome called, "It's all about me."

-- Paula (, October 21, 1999.

Well, you've touched a nerve here. You seem to be implying there's more at stake than y2k. I don't want to think so. I'd rather see "Business as usual" and we'll fix this stuff when Klinton's gone. Unfortunately, Klinton's not the problem. He's the illustration. id=1150160206765

For last Liberty Tree, Floyd's was last blow St. John's tulip poplar, symbol of Revolution, judged too weakened By Cheryl Lu-Lien Tan Sun Staff

After weeks of agonizing discussion, St. John's College officials decided yesterday to take down the school's wind-damaged 400-year-old Liberty Tree, the last of the original 13 under which colonists gathered to kindle revolutionary fervor in the 1770s. . . .It has been a powerful symbol of the fight for liberty since Maryland colonists gathered under its shady branches to denounce British oppression, sing revolutionary songs and hang effigies of unpopular officials. . . . Although each of the 13 colonies had a Liberty Tree, Maryland's is the only survivor. British troops hacked down most of them when they occupied major cities during the Revolutionary War.

Just a coincidence? Maybe. But in my present mood, little things like losing the last Liberty Tree send a chill dow

-- Magnolia (, October 21, 1999.

Am I the only one here who thinks this ranting Lon flake was planted here by the FBI to prove their point?

-- (, October 21, 1999.


You may be right about the government manipulating "prophecy" to manage public opinion. This was certainly the case during WWII, when astrology and the prophecies of Nostradamus were both faked and reinterpreted in order to influence German morale. I was suprised to find that Lon put a lot of stuff into his rather disjointed post, but didn't include the "Revelations" quote that really resonates with me, RE Y2k: the one about in which "Babylon" (America?) is "destroyed in one hour." It repeats this three times, and it's clear that the time of "one hour" is not metaphorical; the shortness of the duration of the destruction is marveled at by all nations.

It seems to fit the Y2k scenario; I don't take the terribly seriously, or interpret "Babylon" as the U.S. (or New York, as some have). But I don't think the FBI should be allowed to do a cavity search on everyone who DOES believe this. Their recent tarring of people who believe in this prophecy as being members of "apocalyptic cults," and associating them with racism and terrorism, is inflammatory and irresponsible in my opinion; it's the act of an corrupt agency desperate to regain credibility and justify itself by provoking a false "threat."


-- Liberty (, October 21, 1999.


You have much to learn of Scripture, keep working, and pray for knowledge and understanding. If you are fortunate enough to receive it, you'll have to pray for strength as well, because "to increase knowledge is to increase sorrow."


Show me where in Scripture it says the "jews" are God's chosen people. Not there, pal. Israel is the chosen seed. Chosen for covenant with the promise that was given to Abraham. He was not a "jew," and I believe it's some 500 pages before that term is used at all. The covenant was everlasting. "Brit-ish" was Hebrew for "covenant man" - "Brit-ain" was for "covenant nation." At any rate Israel was dispersed to the four corners of the world with the promise of a NEW Zion to come. The abomination that was *set up*, (clue: Daniel 12) by the Godless UN in '47, ('48?), is NOT the Israel of Scripture. The 10 supposedly *lost* tribes went north over the Caucasus mountains, (from whence comes the word "caucasian"), and were never really lost as the linage can easily be traced, and has been by numerous scholars. Iberia meaning *land of the Hebrews*... If in fact, you are a genius, I suppose you can tell me, without looking it up, the difference between a "country" and a "nation." If that very piece of rudimentary knowledge is not already in your "understanding," then perhaps you are terribly misnomered.


You continue to impress me with your understanding, however, there are two beasts in Rev. 18, the first being as you say, and the second being the "little horn" as mentioned in Daniel. The first is a system, the second is THE adversary, (the abomination of the *desolator* - properly translated in the 1st person, singular). I believe it is Zac. 5 that speaks of the nation that would afflict Judah, (Edom), and continue to do so until th dusk of this age. This is what has so many railing falsely against our brother Judah. Rev. 2:9 & 3:9 adds a bit to this point. This earth-age is to be distinguished from the 1st earth age, when Satan drew away the third of the stars of heaven, (Rev. 12). See the reference I make below. How do you like your Geneva Bible? I've wanted one for some time, but $200.00?!

Bill P...

The beginning of Rev. 12 is in reference to "eternity past" and more, which I've mentioned on the Belief vs. Reality thread toward the bottom. What is the difference between the beast of Rev. 12 and the beast of Rev. 13? (Bonus points for this one). The woman that fled to the wilderness was Israel, the people, where she remains to this day, albeit, not for much longer.


Never mind.


America is NOT Babylon, is spite of those who would have you believe otherwise, and we are not the Great Satan, (unless, of course, you're Islamic), but America has "gone to Babylon" right along with the rest of the planet, and we have become the vehicle from which much of "the adversary's" work is being executed. The world government that many are anticipating the emergence of has been "de facto" present for some time now. It isn't coming, it is already here. The abomination that maketh desolate was "set up" when "Israel became a nation, and the clock started ticking. I submit to you that we are on God's timetable and true prohecy cannot be manipulated. Babylon will fall in one hour and the merchants will stand afar off, and marvel.

-- Patrick (, October 21, 1999.

OK all of you prophesy experts out there, read the Oracle of Habakkuk in the New International Version and comment please. Maybe I should start a thread...

-- Greg (, October 21, 1999.

New York City is the capital of Babylon America.

When the Russians launch nuclear missiles from submarines in a sneak attack, New York and other cities will be destroyed in one hour.

-- Randolph (, October 21, 1999.

Grag, If all we need is Habakkuk, why is the rest of the book there?

-- Keep reading (wisdom@bible.God), October 21, 1999.

Are you folks still reading, "The Late, Great Planet Earth", by Lindsey, and the offspring of his questionable research? Puleease....there are Xian Y2K fora for this. Pastor Whatshisname...somebody help me out here. Oh..ya...Pastor Chris. I had a senior moment. :-)

-- Donna (, October 21, 1999.

Donna, Lindsay is an idiot, and an intentional "Judas goat," IMO; what else are you saying here?

-- Patrick (, October 21, 1999.

Dear Saveus: How right you are, He will. Only those that knows when he is saving them will come out winners.Please don't show your brain power. I am no preacher, I love my country. But God has the power to do what he wants to do, and what he has said , He does not place out of reach of understanding His plans for a world.

Dear Genius: Read Revelation 12: 113-14-15-16-17When satan understood that all his plans had failed to stop the coming of Gods Son, Jesus Christ. He turned with a fury to do away with Gods people whether Jew, Greek or any other nationality who laid claim to Christendom. We have a church here spoken of as being " in the Wilderness This must denote a state of seculusion from the public gaze, and hiding from her foes. The church went forward as represented by the white horse as seen by John in Revelation 6:2, A pure church, a pure gospel whish was drawing men into the kingdom od God. They were going forth conquering, and to conquer men unto God. The "mystery of iniquity" Was a man prentending to be God. The word of God was sacred and cherished from the rage of its foes. God watched over and protected His church. The eagle wings given her signify the haste with which the true church was obliged to seek for her own safety when the man of sin was installed in power. The symbol is used here to decribe Gods dealing with ancient Israel. By Moses He said to them," You have seen what I did unto the Egyptians,and how I bare you on eagles" wings, and brought you unto myself." Exodus 19:4.The (church) woman is nourished in the wilderness as" a time and times and half a time,Daniel 7:25 furnishes a key to the explanation of thre latter passage. The same period is called in Revelation 12:6, A thousand two hundred and three score days. This shows that a "time" is one year, 360 days; half a year, or 180 days, making in all 1260 days.These days being symbolic, signify 1260 literal years. The serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood to carry away the church. By false doctrines th papacy had so corrupted all nations as to have absolute control of the civil power for long centuries. Through it Satan could throw persecutions against the church in every direction and did. Look at Daniel 7:25,-millions of true believers was carried away by the flood, But the church was not entirly done away with, for the days was shortened for the elects sake. Matthew 24: 22.

Amen, Lon

Dear Pager or God Simulator; Yes educate me.


Dear Invar: You have some truth in your post, such as the Roman Empire will be the final power again. My God man, look around and study, and lay brick upon brick.


Dear Bill P: read the above post.


Dear Paula: Its out of my hands. Dear Magnolia:

I am implying here that the year 200 will indeed be the EOTWAWKI. The USA of America and the rest of the world will not heed Gods warnings. There are powers of more ready than Y2K to heed.

The white horse has turned red.


Dear paranoia: Not everbody can be a goverment agent, But its getting close.


Dear Liberty: Just for you.

In the first year of Neriglissar, two years after the death of Nebuchadnezzar, a fatal war broke out between the Babylonians and the Meds,which resulted in the overthrow of the Babylonian kingdom.Cyaxares,king of th Medes, who is called "Darius" See Daniel 5:31,summoned to his aid his nephew Cyrus of the Persian line. The war was fought uninterruptd sucess by the Medes and Persians, until in the eighteenth year of Nabonidus(the third year of his son) Belshazzar), Cyrus laid seige to Bablon, the only city in all the east that had held out against him.The Babylonians thought they were the strongest of the strong, The greatest of the great, and they mocked the army outside their walls. God had decreed that the proud and wicked city should come down from her throne of glory. Cyrus resolved to bring the city down. But his army could not penetrate the walls. Learning of a coming of an annual festival in whish the whole city would be celebrating even tho Cyrus'es army was out side the walls. Cyrus ordered the The River Euphrates diverted under the walls of the city. Which he then entered and the fall was great.Read Isaiah 13: 19-22.-

Y2k is not mentioned in prophecy, Only the downfall of world goverments. Liberty) many a man has fought and died to preserve it. It takes only a few to take it away.


-- Lon (, October 21, 1999.

Here's a URL for a source saying much the same thing as you, Lon:

This source is Seventh Day Adventist.

I wonder if you have a common source? What/who is your source? I'm sure someone specific came up with this interpretation quite a while ago, I just haven't found out who. But I'd like to find out, for my own information, if you know.

-- S. Kohl (, October 21, 1999.


"The USA has challenged Almighty God- The end will be short as the battle is taken up in heaven. Wow unto anyone that sees neither a beast, and says peace peace."

No one "challenges" God. He/She/Everything/All That Is God has given Man (part of God) free will to have battles amongst Mankind, and/or destroy Mankind, if this is what Mankind chooses to do with Our free will.

Also, what do you mean by "Wow unto anyone" that sees neither a beast.

I don't see any beast here, so I'd like to know what you mean when you say "Wow" unto me.

-- @ (@@@.@), October 21, 1999.

@@@- I think he meant Woe, but I don't think it does any good to post this thread, everyone is just here to make a goofy comment, and not answer anyone else in a serious manner. The poster here got in over his head methinks...

-- Patrick (, October 21, 1999.

Thanks Patrick, that's what I kinda figured... "woe" means misfortune. Hmmmm... that's odd. I always thought that if people would quit depending on God to come to our rescue they might have time to consider that we have the free will to control our own destiny and that God has no desire to stop us from doing whatever we want with it. He should have known that anytime you start discussing religion or politics you are going to get considerable challenges. Well woe unto you too pal!

-- @ (@@@.@), October 22, 1999.

Thanks Patrick, that's what I kinda figured... "woe" means misfortune. Hmmmm... that's odd. I always thought that if people would quit depending on God to come to our rescue they might have time to consider that we have the free will to control our own destiny and that God has no desire to stop us from doing whatever we want with it. He should have known that anytime you start discussing religion or politics you are going to get considerable challenges. Well woe unto you too pal!

-- @ (@@@.@), October 22, 1999.

@@@@@, (or however many you prefer, sir) I've always enjoyed discussing politics and religion, probably the forbidden fruit syndrome. The saying about never discussing such came from politicians & preacher-types no doubt, (that way you'd never get on to either sleazy game).

God isn't there to get us out of a jam... that's our job, that's why He created bootstraps. Right now everyone ought to locate their own and get a firm grip, 'coz there's going to be a tremendous amount of "tugging" required on everyone's part.

It sure won't hurt to know His ways though, they've certainly served me well since I decided to learn. BUT that is not to say that it is the same as what they teach in today's "beth-aven," (houses of nothingness), churches. God is nowhere near them, I assure you.

Enjoy your posts, programmer, eh?

-- Patrick (, October 22, 1999.


Hang on a sec, am responding to your comment above. We are largely in agreement, except for the understanding of what you mean by "1st earth age". Yes there is a gap of unknown years or millenia between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, but I don't think the verse in Daniel 8 about the "Little horn" refers to Satan or even Antiochus Epiphanes as is commonly believed.

Also, there's only one type of beast in Rev. 18, and that reference is about the destruction of Babylon and the Babylonian "system". "Beast " is not mentioned in that chapter.

For a bit of understanding on the Little Horn of Daniel 8, the following historical info must be made manifest;

Daniel 8:1-2. This describes the 'ram' of Daniel's vision, of which the horns come forth. Verses 3&4 describe its power. Verse 20 of Daniel 8 reveals what the ram symbolizes: The kings of Media and Persia. So the ram symbolizes the Medo-Persian Empire from 539 until its destruction in 331 B.C. at the hands of the "male goat" in Daniel 8 verse 5, and the revelation of the horn between its eyes in verse 21 as "the first king", or Alexander the Great, first king of Greece.

So what we have here is the ram of Daniel 8 symbolizing the Medo- Persian Empire of 539-331B.C., and the subsequent rise of the Greco- Macedonian Empire of Alexander the Great in 331B.C. symbolizing the male goat that comes from the West "across the surface of the whole earth" described in verses 5-7. So by the time you get to verse 7, we have moved in history from 539B.C. to the Empire of Alexander the Great in 331B.C.

Now check-out verse 8: "The male goat grew very great, and when he became strongest, the large horn was broken, and in place of it came four notable horns up towards the four winds of heaven". Verse 21 reveals the great horn in the goat's head as the first king of the Greco-Macedonian Empire or Alexander the great. Alexander died suddenly of fever in Babylon at 33 years old in 323B.C. breaking the power (or horn) of the Empire.

Verse 22 of Daniel 8 tells what the four horns that came from the broken horn's place meant, "and the four that stood up in it's place, four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation, but not with its power". Alexander's empire was divided among his 4 generals by 301 B.C. Two of these subsequent kingdoms (Ptolemies and Seleucidae) have fought down through the ages to our time (Daniel chapter 11 covers this). So we're at 301B.C.

Continue now with verse 9, this is the "little horn" of which you refered in your post Patrick, it had to have begun its growth after 301B.C. and not before as some claim who believe that Antiochus Epiphanes is the little horn, even though he did desecrate the temple. He was a foreshadow of the one who will become the fulfillment of that little horn prophecy. I say that because of verse 17 and again in verse 23. The setting for the little horn prophecy is the "time of the end".

Verse 23-25 describes this new ruler: "A king shall arise having fierce features, who understands sinister schemes. His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power, and he shall destroy with wonderment, and prosper and practice, destroying the mighty and the holy people. Through his policy he will cause deceit to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart. He shall destroy many in their prosperity. He shall even rise against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without human hand."

Those verses cannot refer to Satan either, as it is a king, a human ruler. Notice that this ruler challenges the Prince of princes, or Messiah, and is broken not of "human hand". This is clearly a reference to the Second Coming of Christ, and sets the timeline of this "little horn" to exist at the time of Messiah's return. This ruler assembles the armies of the earth at Megiddo (Armageddon), to march towards Jerusalem to overthrow the Christ. They are destroyed in the valley of Hinnom by Jesus Himself. Therefore Antiochus Epiphanes came over 2,000 years too early to fulfill this prophecy, except as an antetype.

Continuing with the description of this little horn in Daniel 8 verses 10-12. The Authorized version fogs the translation of verse 12, but the New king James better clarifies: "Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He commits all this and prospers."

Some say the "santuary" is referring to the Heavenly Sanctuary, or work of Christ in heaven. This is impossible. A mortal man nor even a man-made religious system cannot intervene in heaven, nor cast down the Kingdom of God. Have we not read that the "Gates of hell shall not prevail against His church? No man or ruler nor even the Devil himself can throw down the Throne of God much less trample it underfoot.

So the "Little Horn" of Daniel 8 is "THE adversary" at the time of Christ's return, a human belief and religious system I described earlier, who gathers together the armies of the world for "That battle of that Great Day of God Almighty".

Let me take a crack at your question to Bill P. about the difference of beasts in Rev. 12 and 13.

The Dragon in Revelation 12 is Satan the Devil and the false religious system he initiates and gives power to.

There are 2 beasts of Rev. 13. One is the beast of verse 1, and the other is the beast of verse 11.

The beast in verse 1 is the rise and subsequent ressurections of the holy Roman Empire. Daniel 7: 1-7 describes the exact same beasts as Rev. 13:1 that John saw. In fact, Daniel 7:3 says these beasts come from the sea, just as the beast of Rev 13:1.

Rev. 13:1 describes a seven-headed, ten-horned beast.

Daniel 7:4-7 describes 4 beasts, one (Dan. 7:6) having four heads, bringing the head-count to 7, just as the beast in Rev. 13:1. The fourth beast of Daniel 7 grew 10 horns, while the beast of Rev. 13:1 also has 10 horns.

The difference is that the beast in Rev. 13:1 encompasses all the beasts Daniel 7 has into one frightening creature.

What do the heads represent? Daniel 7:17 interprets them. They are 4 kings or kingdoms that shall arise from the earth (one of them having four divisions- making 10). The horns are 10 kings, that come from these kingdoms (verse 24). This should make plain that this beast is not one man or "anti-christ", but a kingdom or "system". The fourth kingdom or beast we are told will rule the earth, and therefore these ten horns or kings are ten succeeding kingdoms arising out of this fourth beast.

To ID these kingdoms, you need a little history and Daniel 2:31-45. It is the Image of the man in Nebuchadnezzar's dream, of a head of gold, a breast and arms of silver, belly and thighs of brass, and legs and feet of iron and clay mixed. The Chaldean Empire is the head of gold, and the first beast of Daniel 7. The Medo-Persian empire is the breast and arms of silver, and the second beast of Daniel 7. The Greco-Macedonian empire is the brass, and the third beast or leopard of Daniel 7, having Alexander the Great's empire divided into 4 kingdoms of Greece/ Macedonia, Thrace and Western Asia, Syria and lands to the Indus River, and Egypt, became the four heads of the third beast. The legs and feet, represent the fourth and terrible beast: The Roman Empire.

Since the 4th beast essentially swallowed-up and absorbed all the previous beasts or empires, the Roman Empire became the great and terrible beast. This is why John in Rev. 13:1 sees not four beasts, but one beast. Not a leopard, but like a leopard-posessing all the cruelty and speed of this predator. Plus it posessed the dominant characteristics of the other two beasts - feet of the bear, and the mouth of the lion.

The beast in Rev. 13:1 is the Roman Empire of 31B.C. to 476A.D., symbolized by the legs and feet of iron and clay that represented two divisions of the Roman Empire after A.D. 330 with the capital at Rome in the West and the captial at Constantinople in the East.

This beast is not a man, or a church - but a governmental system having a great army.

The ten horns of the beast in Daniel 7 and in Rev. 13 are ten kings or ten kingdoms to arise out of the fourth beast, the Roman Empire, to continue until the time the stone smashes the image of Nebuchadnezzar's dream (Representing the Kingdom of God Christ brings when He returns).

The wound on the beast of Rev. 13 is the final destruction of Rome by the Visigoths in 476A.D.

But the wound was healed, and each of the ten horns or kingdoms was to rise from the head of the Roman Empire. 9 have come and gone, one yet remains....and the foundations have already been laid.

The Beast of Rev. 13:1 is a civil governmental system of successive incarcerations of the Roman Empire.

The beast of Rev. 13:11 is a religious kingdom masquerading as Christ and speaking blasphemy (like a dragon). it has two horns embodying a church heirarchy, and has civil authority like the Roman Empire. Rev. 13:14 says this beast has "power to deceive them that dwell upon the earth by the means of those miracles which he had the power to do in the sight of the beast".

This beast performs miracles, and it performs them in the sight of the first beast or Roman Empire, and with them he deceives all nations.

These beasts in Rev. 13 are the coming civil governmental system, a global empire that is accompanied by an apostate, counterfeit religion that deceives all nations. Also known as the beast and false prophet.

Do I get the extra point? Also, the geneva Bible is a great resource to have, but a bit difficult.... I actually prefer the Moffat translation.

-- INVAR (, October 22, 1999.

Who me, no I'm not a programmer, just a DGI who is damn glad that he isn't the only one!

Yeah, I was raised a Catholic but by the time I got to my teens no single religion seemed to be correct to me. I think there is something of value in the Bible, but it isn't meant to be taken too literally IMO. Part of my problem with a lot of religions is that most portray God as being vindictive, and I just find that hard to believe. Keeping people living in this state of fear is what keeps religions alive.

Don't know if you've read it yet, but my favorite book on the subject of God, which is closest to my personal views, is "Conversations with God" by Neil Donald Walsch. This philosophy goes along with what I have always felt to be true on the deepest level of my instincts. I highly recommend it to anyone, it will make you realize that mankind really has much more control of our reality than we usually believe we do. Our ultimate power will be realized if mankind as a whole can always seek to experience their highest thoughts, then the "mass consciousness" is really capable of having any experiences they desire.

Heaven is nowhere, and if you add a space you see that heaven is "now" and "here". We just need to start living as if we know it, and believe it, then the thoughts become the reality.

-- @ (@@@.@), October 22, 1999.

Major correction... make that a GI, not a DGI!! BIG difference!

-- @ (@@@.@), October 22, 1999.

As a student of Bible prophecy for many years, here's something fascinating for you to chew on. Read Revelation chapter 18 and tell me which city fits the description: with a large sea port, have lots of Jews "my people, come out of Babylon"), has great political power and is a financial hub and this city has made many merchants/trading nations rich... There's only one city in my study that would fulfill it. It's not L.A., not London, not Beijing. It's New York city. The Bible did,'t say that, but it's my interpretation. I could be wrong. Some think Babylon is Modern Iraq, other think it's Rome. I think political Babylon is NYC. If true, it will be destroyed or allowed to be destroyed by God, perhaps a neutron or nuclear bomb. "The merchants wail (at her loss as she burns)."

-- Raymond (, October 22, 1999.

My concern is that all of you are now legitimate targets of an FBI "terrorist" investigation, simply for studying these things and discussing them openly.

The fact that they would lump you people in with racists and bomb-throwers makes me physically ill. This might be Rome, or it might be Babylon, but it's not America anymore, if people are being targeted for their religious beliefs.

"Project Meggido" my ass. That's like calling Waco "Project Masada." It's as if they're bending over backwards to be offensive, and daring us to challenge their authority to police our beliefs. I'm skeptical (but respectful) about prophecy, but sometimes it seems like TPTB are using it as a script, out of some perverse anti-religious impulse.


-- Liberty (, October 22, 1999.

INVAR... I'll address your post in a bit when I get more time.

Raymond... ALL the world is "Babylon" so to speak. Ancient Iraq was the geographical location of ancient Babylon.

Liberty... If I'm a target of the feds for my views, so be it. I'm hardly afraid of anything from them. What's the worst they could do? Take my head off and send me home to The Father - Hey! Mystery over! I'll hold my head high and speak forth the truth regardless, (about their doings as well as the Scripture). The thing about understanding and Scripture is that you are a vessel, and if you don't "pour it out" then you won't receive more. (I explained this to a friend that I discuss some of these things with, and he laughed and shook his head and told me that he knew what I meant because everytime we end a conversation, he had to towel-off).

Besides, I'm not about to let anyone kowtow me into submission. This is the land of the free and home of the BRAVE, at least for a few of us.

-- Patrick (, October 22, 1999.


Your concerns are valid. If we are fearful of government retaliation for our beliefs, whether they be political or scriptural, then we truly have arrived at tyranny.

So who will stand for truth?

Or will many shrink back and say nothing as each of us are shamed into silence by our own government and culture?

I watched it happen against the wealthy, the smoker, the gun owner, and now the devout.

How long before many are persecuted, prosecuted and silenced en masse...permanently by our own government ala Waco?

How truly sad that we have arrived at this place.

Shame on you America. You have betrayed your birthright.

And soon you will be in chains of your own forging.

-- INVAR (, October 22, 1999.

INVAR... I walked out today without THE BOOK, but I will repost what may not be clear after the weekend. I dont know every chapter and verse like the scripture lawyers do, but I do have understanding, which they all lack. Would that you and I could prop our feet up by the fire and discuss some of the deeper things. I find zero fault with your historical understanding nor of the symbols employed. You must do a great deal of research. You are to be commended for the profound effort. As always, there is more. I afraid youd only be awarded 1/2 the bonus points, (maybe more for effort). The chapter 12 beast is seven heads, ten horns, SEVEN crowns... The beast of chapter 13 is seven heads, ten horns, TEN crowns. Both speak to the system, (MO), used by Satan. The chapter 12 modus operandi was in the FIRST earth age, prior to the garden. Genesis 1:1-2 is directly tied to 2nd Peter 3:6-? where the earth stood out of the water etc., (of which we are willingly ignorant), this is not discussing Noahs flood, but the tohu va bohu, the kata bole - that casting down or overthrow, if you will. A serious word study must be done on foundation as it relates to the foundation of the world mentioned in many places in the Word. You will run into that tohu and it must be stressed that the world was not created to be void (or tohu). Another place this is verified is Jeremiah 4, (if I remember correctly - will verify on Monday for you if this is incorrect), its the area that speaks to the time when He looked around and behold there was no man and all the birds were fled, and the heavens shown forth not their light. The most accomplished will agree that there were eight souls on Noahs ark, and did Noahs flood touch the heavens? Not hardly. The book of Job also is a clue to foundations portion of this understanding, where Job is asked where were you?, (chapter 8?). The time frame here is, as I ve stated, prior to the garden, when all the stars of heaven sang for joy, until Satan drew away the third part. This rebellion caused the tohu, God destroyed it, thereby appointing mankind to be born once of a woman, through water and blood, and mortal, or liable to die. The only one sentenced to death so far is death himself, or Satan. But the same will follow for the rejectors after that day, and Ezekial 28 tells us what happens to him/them. In the first earth age we were in spiritual bodies, as is described for us to have again after the Lords day. 1st Cor. 15:50+, Isiah 60+, Ezekial 44_ (Sons of Zadok), many Psalms as well and the end of Revelation. I think the main difference between your take and mine is that you see the beast in the future, and I see it in the here and now. We have this world government, de facto, in place as we speak, and the great tribulation, in the larger sense of the meaning, actually started at the garden with the fall. Ill find better refs over the weekend, then Ill let you know. In the meantime, as an aside question (s), why was Noahs flood necessary, and why was Noah chosen? (More bonus points) Now back to the top for this thread.

-- Patrick (, October 22, 1999.


Would we indeed enjoy the proverbial hot cider amidst the chill Fall air over the deep things of God.

I would speak to your points about the "First Earth Age" point by point and with the scriptural reference you gave, as it appears delightful fodder for deep thought and analagous symbolism....but perhaps another occasion as time and bandwidth are somewhat limiting the full scope and opportunity required by us both to probe deeper these offerings.

However, for now I must hold to my conviction as to Revelation's portent to future events and not to events or ages past or present to the time of Paul during his exile on Patmos.

For the entire context and setting of the propetic book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ to John is this: "To show unto His servants things WHICH MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS;....." Rev. 1:1

The woman in Rev. 12:1 is symbolic of the Church of God. But I can see where your interpretation can be lent towards applying the figurative to the practical in terms of the re-creation of the earth and the creation of man in the garden. Both talk of the spiritual destiny reserved for man, and of Christ in verse 5. But it more perfectly symbolizes the church or ekklesia, that is much symbolized as a woman or bride, that will join the Bridegroom at the marriage Supper of the lamb in New Testament symbology.

To answer your questions I offer Gen.6:11-12-13 to answer question 1, and Gen. 6:9 and Gen. 7:1 to answer question 2.

But I'll assume you more pointedly wanted to expound on Gen. 6:18 as the answer as to why Noah was chosen.

Go ahead...I'm listening...

-- INVAR (, October 23, 1999.

For those who are worried about what the FBI thinks regarding anyone who believes that the Biblical prophecies of Revelation are valid and may...MAY... (let me repeat "MAY") be about to come into fulfill- ment ... please understand that most conservative Christians both Protestant and Catholic also note the following passage from Revelation...

Rev. 13:10

"He that leads into captivity shall go into captivity; He that kills by the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and faith of the overcomers (read "saints")."

This is an almost identical rendering of the passage in Mathew 26:52 where at the time of the arrest of Jesus we find the narrative describes the Apostle Peter as drawing a sword and cutting off the ear of one of the members of the arresting party. Jesus then performs a miracle and heals the man's ear and restoring it. Jesus then rebukes Peter saying...

Matthew 26: 52 "Put up your sword into its place, for all they that take up the sword shall perish with the sword."

This has been the operative word of all genuine, and mature believers in Christ since the beginning of the Church. This quote by Christ is why the believers in the early churches did NOT take up arms against Rome, and instead allowed themselves to be martyred. There is no permission given in scripture for Christians to defend themselves from persecution by taking up arms whether it be swords or guns.

David Koresh and the WACO group were wrong to have weapons to be used to fight against the gov't. So too, with any other group. This is a spiritual war going on and it cannot be fought with physical weapons, but rather spiritual weapons... See Ephesians 6:12-18.

IF the Biblical Prophecies are indeed about to be fulfilled in the next 30 years or so then... America IS Mystery Babylon, but it is for God to deal with America directly by Himself. He will do so supernaturally by his own direct hand and it will be a re-run of Sodom and Gomorrah...see Isaiah 13:19 and also Jeremiah 50:40 ... and also Revelation 16:17-21... and also Revelation 18:21. He won't need the Christians to raise so much as a finger. In fact, the Church will have been evacuated prior to this. The Jewish people will also be "exodused" out of Mystery Babylon also, at least those who will listen.

What we are seeing now within the US Government is the... The Powers That Be... are the architects of the structure to support the government of the Antichrist and his New World Order.

If you want to see some interesting articles on this check out the following webpages:

Mystery Babylon: Who is this mystery woman of Revelation Chapter 17

America's Babylonian Roots: Idols of America--The Statue of Libery and the Statue of Freedom:

America's Babylonian Roots: What The Schools Did Not Teach Us About America's Secret History's%20Babylonian%20Roots% 20html.htm

There are other articles that I've written regarding the various theories on the identity of Mystery Babylon and also I've written a 256 page popular book that addresses fully the theory that America is indeed the Mystery Babylon... IF, Biblical Prophecy is about to be fulfilled within the next 30 years. My research is the result of my own extensive Hebrew and Greek analysis of the original texts along with massive data uncovered that uncovers America's extensive Babylon connection.

-- Richard Coombes (, October 23, 1999.


Surely, as you say, the book of Revelation deals with the revealing, yet chapter 12 takes the reader clear back to pre-garden times to facilitate deeper understanding of the context and the all- encompassing nature of the subject, Gods purpose. Notice in verse one, this appeared in heaven. Verse four is referring to Satans rebellion, and Genesis 6, where those sons of God came down and found the daughters of Adam to be fair and took them for wives of all which they chose.

This was the reason for the flood of Noah, as the Adamic bloodline was under assault, (for the second time, no less), by these fallen angels, or Nephilim. The reason that Noah was the one chosen, was because he was perfect in his generations. This had absolutely ZERO to do with his behavior or his moral state, as the Hebrew word, tamin was used, which could only refer to the PHYSICAL. The same word would be used in regards to the sacrificial lamb, for instance, to be without blemish. This tells us that Gen. 6:9 does speak to Noahs moral perfection, but to his and his familys preserved pedigree, from the corruption that was brought about by the fallen angels.

The book of Numbers reveals a second inculcation of these fallen ones wherein they are referred to as the Anakin, and this was the reason for calling out the sword of Israel. This was yet another attempt by the adversary to corrupt the bloodline, whereby Christ could not be born, thus thwarting Gods plan of salvation. (When the sword was drawn, they were less than 100% successful, as some of the Anakin had escaped, and we still have many of these corrupted ones among us to this day, hence the problems of the world).

-- Patrick (, October 25, 1999.

And of course we know now that Anakin later becomes Darth Vader....

Sometimes simplistic fantasy illustrates reality much better than all the complex philosophy garnering the political roundtables.

At least George seems to understand the metaphors....

-- INVAR (, October 26, 1999.

You're pretty funny for a serious-minded individual... Good you keep your sense of humor.

-- Patrick (, October 26, 1999.

It's the only thing that keeps me sane amidst all this uncertainty.

(Not to mention being surrounded by the wife and four pre-teen daughters. THAT alone is enough to drive a man crazy!)

-- INVAR (, October 26, 1999.

I see all the religious folk are just as stupid as they ever were, God Damn What a bunch of idiots. Rev is a delusions from some sick fuck. You sit around and try and figure out some mad mans delusions What a bunch of idiots. If you what to do good GO DO SOME. The Answer my dear stupid religious idiots is to not hate people for how and what they are but to help them. the rest is bull shit God if there is one isn't sitting around worried about how much you praise him and if he is Fuck him who the hell would need a god like that.

-- Bee Bee (, November 25, 2004.

Moderation questions? read the FAQ