OT: IRS slips up again

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Tuesday, 19 October 1999

IRS slips up again

So you pay your income taxes diligently through your paycheck. Out there in the land are thousands who don't. They owe billions in back taxes, the backlog is growing, and the Internal Revenue Service does little or nothing to capture these owed dollars.

It's a scenario to make your blood boil, especially after years of complaints over IRS abuse and bullying and then Congress's rewrite of the rules last year intended to bring more fairness to citizens. What has happened in part is an over-correction in the rules, one that allows scofflaws to ride a new statute of limitations and possibly escape all repayment.

Congress also has cut the number of tax collectors by 19 percent since 1990 while the number of tax returns filed has increased 13 percent to 226 million this year. That makes it nearly impossible for the IRS to catch up and collect all the money owed to Treasury coffers.

Just a transitory problem, says Charles O. Rossotti, the tax commissioner, while tax collectors spend the year training on the complex new rules instead of in the field harvesting owed taxes. Yet the problem appears to be much more than transitory. The longer this neglect continues the less likely the government will be able to capture the lost revenue.

The IRS has already let major tax debtors go more than a year without paying. That includes wealthy individuals as well as employers who have withheld payroll taxes from employee salaries but not turned them in to the government.

When the IRS does catch someone, it interprets the new rules as taking an all-or-nothing stance, demanding full payment rather than reaching negotiated settlements. If the taxpayer won't cooperate now, the agency sets cases aside as temporarily uncollectible. That lets billions of dollars in partial settlements escape while they used to be collected.

And now, many tax delinquents opt to take their chances and pay nothing, riding the odds that the 10-year statue of limitations will run out before the government takes action.

They may think it is smart to try it, but meanwhile, they're getting away with something that the little taxpayers wouldn't dare try. And the loss to the government in revenue is estimated at billions of dollars.

Tax accountants tell of clients who owe millions in taxes and could pay but don't because they're riding the odds, betting the government's limp-wrist tax collection will allow them to squeak through.

The government has also all but abandoned a tactic it used to coax back taxes out of scofflaws. Non-payers are shielding assets from the IRS by putting them into homes, fully aware that the government, which used to seize as many as 1,000 houses a year for non-payment of taxes, has not seized one in more than 14 months.

Congress needs to take another look and understand that the rules it set up are undermining the purpose of tax collection when the IRS cannot fulfill its role.

The pursuit of fairness has to cut two ways - make the IRS less abusive but don't let it get away with failure to collect taxes from those who owe.

-- Homer Beanfang (Bats@inbellfry.com), October 19, 1999


"...the government, which used to seize as many as 1,000 houses a year for non-payment of taxes, has not seized one in more than 14 months. "

I didn't know that. Did YOU guys know that? How does one confirm such a statistic? Gee, I wonder why it's not headline news...?

-- wow (thanks@for.theinfo), October 19, 1999.

With the infosys problems they have, if the IRS survives the Y2K rollover with any vestiges of functionality intact it'll be a miracle. They're having a hard enough time keeping up with the load now, pre-Y2K.

In a sense, this is sweet as the IRS has built itself a rep for being a cutthroat rogue agency that could give a _[insert favorite expletive here]_ what they do to the little guy that only owes a few hundred bucks. To quote an unwritten Texas "law," they need killin'. [grin]

But, in a sense, if the IRS goes under, the US goobermunt will need another source of revenue and the Treasury Dept. won't have nearly the requisite access to enforcement personnel with the IRS gone. (Other agencies will be so busy trying to keep the rest of the system of systems up and running that they might not be able to devote any manpower to trying to recover operating funds until they get dangerously short themselves, by which time it might be too late.)

So, there are a few possibilities, such as a nationwide flat tax on all goods and services. I'd expect more to see a value-added tax methodology if the IRS dries up, since you can sponge more $ per item in question if you get a litle bit off each of the various layers of transactions between producer and end-user, as compared to one flat across-the-board tax. Either way, goods prices would skyrocket just from this alone...

BhBye IRS, may you rest in extreme discomfort...

-- OddOne (mocklamer_1999@yahoo.com), October 19, 1999.

For those of us who have look at every possible out-come for Y2K, dealing with the IRS had to be considered as well. Thats why running my business this year I will not pay in quarterly, If everything is ok fisrt quarter I will galdly pay the late fine. That being said I know I will not be paying anything...---...

-- Les (yoyo@tolate.com), October 19, 1999.

Homer -- Your "blood may boil" because some are not paying income tax. Could it be that you are too stupid and/or too cowardly NOT to pay a tax YOU DON'T OWE? And that you are envious and jealous of those who have the balls to "JUST SAY NO" to the IRS?


-- A (A@AisA.com), October 19, 1999.

A year in training! No work got done, but hte IRS agents needed a full year in training to do the same job they had been doing before?



Nope, don't wait for ANY of this in the national press - the media is (again) hiding the incompetence of the Clinonts' administration, just as before htey shielded the public from the corruption in the IRS as Clinton used the IRS to punish his critics (in particular) conservative groups (in general).

Not even Nixon dared do that. He takled about it, but didn't follow through. But the Clintons did. Several hundreds of time.

-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Marietta, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), October 19, 1999.


I found the perfect job for you HERE.

-- Homer Beanfang (Bats@inbellfry.com), October 19, 1999.

Homer: Very funny :-)
But if I was to join organized crime, it would be police department vice squad -- all the pussy and dope you can handle. :-)

-- A (A@AisA.com), October 19, 1999.

Don't pay. It is based on voluntary compliance and self assessment. If you don't assess yourself, nobody can. If you assess yourself and lie, then you might get into trouble.


-- Skating (skater@dontpay.com), October 19, 1999.

Advertise!! Advertise!! Advertise!! www.paynoincometax.com is just another site of tax protester, Irwin Schiff. As I stated in a previous thread, if one desires to follow Mr. Schiff's "zero tax return" method of avoiding the income tax, please refer to The Tax Protester's Hall of Fame at: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2278/ Read the case of Newman vs Schiff, in particular......

About 3 years ago, I had the opportunity to question Mr. Schiff during one of his radio broadcasts. I asked him if he had any proof that filing a "zero tax return" would prevent criminal prosecution for failure to file. He claimed to have proof that such a filing resulted in refunds from prior tax years (that's easy: unless the IRS is aware of some tax avoidance scheme by a taxpayer, it will usually grant the refund, based upon the "statements made under penalty of perjury." As an example, if one had $1000 withheld and claimed to have zero liability, the IRS will usually grant the refund.

Mr. Schiff offered absolutely no proof that his "zero tax return" prevented prosecution, but he certainly was angered by the question. In fact, many callers to his radio program stated that they had received a letter from the IRS demanding a $500 penalty for filing a "frivolous return."

I am no fan of the IRS and personally believe that the income tax is unconstitutional. But I also believe that the Federal judges are corrupt, in that they are incarcerating people for a crime that does not exist. From what I understand, there is NO law requring the filing of a tax return or the payment of income tax. But if a Federal judge says, "Guilty"........(irrespective of the actual law), then welcome to Club Fed.

Is Mr. Schiff's "zero tax return" any more effective than that of the now defunct Pilot Connection........Or does www.taxgate.com provide an effective tool (in spite of the fact that the site ridicules Irwin Schiff's point of view)? What about www.freedomlawschool.com, another site offering tax avoidance schemes at a cost (in cash of course) that can exceed $1000???

Is there anyone who really has a "magic bullet" to defeat the collection of federal income tax? Most of the schemes I have seen appear to offer two things: 1)a good income to their promoters and 2)an invitation to an Alice in Wonderland world of legal Hell to avoid incarceration.

My question to this forum is simple: Where's the proof? .......just the facts, man, the facts!!!!!


-- Don Chen (DChen@newbie.xxxcom), October 19, 1999.

Don't worry about the IRS, they are the least of your worries. IRS is not Y2K compliant, and what a better time than January 2000 to bring in the flat tax. BTW, the IRS is no longer targeting private citizens, they are going after nonprofit organizations (donate your care, boat, etc for the children). IRS is 2 years behind on audits and those will be abandoned. Don't sweat the IRS, they are having internal problems with disgruntled employees. The power is now in the citizens hands not theirs.

-- Insider (Insider@Insiderrr.xcom), October 19, 1999.

Don, since you seem to have extaordinary experience with these "tax protesters," perhaps you could help with a couple of small problems.

1. What part of title 26 makes one liable for income taxes?

2. Why has the Supreme court ruled the income tax illegal?

3. Why is withholding also illegal according to the Supreme court?

4. Has anyone ever been prosecuted for filing "0" returns?

5. Why would you support this corrupt government?

I anxiously await your response.

-- Skating (skater@dontpay.com), October 19, 1999.

Please tell me how to not worry about the IRS? I have received notice from their collections division in just the past few weeks that I owe a few thousand in back taxes from several years ago. They had no difficulty figuring that out to the penney, sending me notice at correct address, and on properly computer-printed forms. I am a low-income person, working 2 jobs, and preparing for y2k as best I can on extremely limited resources. I do not have the money to pay them. I can tell you from personal experience, they do not care, and they are fully functional. From where I'm sitting, IRS is having no problems at this time.

-- (notmenotnow@nothereno.way), October 19, 1999.

Don't worry about the IRS. They have been beat. There is no way for them to turn. I'm telling telling you, go to www.paynoincometax.com. I have been following him for yearss, and he really has them beat. Don't give them another dime.

-- skater (skating@dontpay.com), October 19, 1999.


Please understand that I am on the same (philosophical) side as you are. I recommend that you re-read my post, as I am NOT saying that Irwin Schiff's legal points are invalid. I am, however, saying that a corrupt Federal judiciary is making a mockery of our Constitution and the laws which are suppose to be subordinate to, not superior to it. IMHO, the Federal government violates the letter and spirit of the Constitution on a daily basis. It was written in simple intelligible English and has historical support from The Federalist Papers and other documents.

Where does the Federal government get its "right" to create money out of thin air through fractional reserve banking and the federal reserve system? Where does it obtain jurisdiction in the sovereign states? How can it use Medieval forfeiture laws to confiscate (steal) property from its citizens under the guise of a so-called "drug" war? What provision of the Constitution allows for interference in private contracts? Why are laws written by the executive branch using "regulations" and presidential executive orders? What authorizes all of those tyranical alphabet soup agencies to exist (SEC, ICC, IRS, DEA, etc.)? What are all the senseless arguments against the Second Amendment, the right to bear arms (it is obvious that the entire Bill of Rights was written to protect the people from its government)? I could continue ad infinitum, but I think my point is clear: The Federal government has usurped power of the States and the People. This has made a mockery of The Constitution!!

In regard to Irwin Schiff, it doesn't appear that he is able to protect his own assets, let alone offer hope to those seeking to protect their earnings and assets from the IRS ("A Law unto itself"). Do you not remember his earler cases and impisonment? Was Mr. Schiff able to prevent the IRS from stealing royalties owed to him by his book publisher?

More recently, I recall reading about his Federal case in Las Vegas. The IRS confiscated his automobile and sold it at auction, in spite of the fact that he was not the legal owner (but maintained a beneficial interest in the vehicle). If I recall, the IRS even stole the miniscule money that was held in trust by the Clark County Jail when he was arrested.... And it seems to me that they confiscated prepaid airline vouchers and obtained refunds from the airline (in spite of the fact that such vouchers were not subject to refund or transferable).

Skating, you seem to be promoting his web site......Why? Are you the same poster ("BBB") in the prior thread who "advertized" www.ischiff.com (which is the same web site as www.paynoincometax.com)? ARE YOU IRWIN SCHIFF??

I have posed an open question. Where is YOUR response? Where is there any substantive proof that his "zero tax return" is an effective means of warding off confiscation of assets and/or avoiding prison? I await your answer, but not anxiously.


-- Don Chen (DChen@newbie.xxxcom), October 20, 1999.

This is a notice to the members of this message board that the address being used by the participant known to you as "Don Chen" is a fake e-mail address. This is evidently in violation of the Terms of Service for this message board.

postmaster@newbie.com postmaster@newbie.net

-- Newbie.com Postmaster (postmaster@newbie.com), October 20, 1999.

No I am not Irwin Schiff. But let me say, not knowing all the details of the confiscation of the vehicle, that his case regarding the excessive force etc. is before the 9th circuit and they have no choice but to rule in his favor. So there it sits. And sits. The fact is, the feds broke the law doing what they did. Irwin, I think, will someday be looked upon as someone like Jefferson or some of our other founding fathers.

You are right about our judiciary. But can you go on and support this corrupt government? I see as a moral issue.

The fact is, that thousands of people are doing it the Irwin way, and it seems that things are working. I have been listening to him for years, without any call screening, and I have heard no one bitch.

Perhaps you should give him a call during his show and ask your questions.

-- Skater (skating@dontpay.com), October 20, 1999.

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