"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival.--There may be even a worse fate. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live asslaves." Winston Churchill

-- free man (freeman@u.s.a.), October 16, 1999

Answers

Your already a slave.

-- (welcome@to.the Matrix), October 16, 1999.

A SLAVE TO THE IRS!

Why do you pay tax when the Constitution says that no direct tax shall be laid? Why do you ignore your Constitutional Rights?

Why do you pay tax, when in fact there is no Statute in the IRS code, Title 26, that tells you to pay tax?

www.ischiff.com

Irwin Schiff offers a $5000 reward to anyone who can find such a law!

Since you think you are required to pay tax, why has nobody been able to find a Statute that requires Americans to pay tax?

According to the IRS, 30 Million Americans do not pay tax!

Why do you?

Yes, you are a slave!

-- bbb (bbb@bbb.com), October 16, 1999.

"The slaveowners victory is complete when the slave takes pride in his chains"-Mohandis K. Ghandi (Mahatma)

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), October 16, 1999.

"They'll spray brown paint on the seat of your trousers and call you Mr. Poopy Pants." King Leo VXX

-- Butt Nugget (catsbutt@umailme.com), October 16, 1999.

The BEST return on any slave in the south ( and they KEPT records ) was 12% for lifetime of work, children born into same , etc. With local, state and fedral ( PLUS "hidden" ) taxes , a citizen living in CT now has 56% of all he/she earns taken for taxes ! It is no wonder Bill & Hillory want a medical plan for slaves who return THREE TIMES what the best records show for the original blacks . They want you to stay healthy and continue to pay for their bloated salaries, pensions, yatchs , houses and compounds !! Come the revolution , commrad , we will ..... FDL

-- Free Dom Lover (Seenitall@broke.com), October 16, 1999.

"Americans need not fear the federal government because they enjoy the advantage of being armed, which you possess over the people of almost every othernation." James Madison.

-- blood is not too high a price to pay (Time for@rev.olution), October 16, 1999.

Do you drive on the interstates, paid for by taxes? Do you use any of the other services our government provides with taxes? I've never met anyone who complained about paying taxes (as opposed to the complexity of the code) who refrained or wanted to refrain from using those services, to this day.

I can see a complaint about corruption and misuse of tax monies. But unless you don't use what the taxes pay for, you are obligated to pay for it along with everyone else. The world doesn't owe you a living, and everyone should have to pay for things that benefit everyone.

I think that our system is much better, taxwise, than many other societies I've read about in the past. Those with more ability to pay, pay more, ideally (and it is an excellent goal even if we don't quite succeed in all cases because of corruption).

That policy should be balanced to avoid stifling initiative, obviously. But if I personally have to give up a few luxuries to pay more in taxes, that is better than asking someone poorer to give up food to pay taxes, in my book. Most taxes are paid by the wealthy and businesses, even though people don't like to acknowledge that. I got a refund every year when I earned little, and I'm happy that I now have enough to pay a large percentage of my income in taxes and still live better than when I got that refund because I was poor.

I'm also not impressed by how much most people give back to the system/society, compared to how much they benefit. I think the main sacrifices were made by our forebears, and we're coasting compared to them. I myself don't feel I've even broken even for the privileged lifestyle and vast array of opportunity I enjoy as a modern-day American, based on what those in the past had as a lifestyle.

As another example, almost everyone complains about paying for schooling and raising children, but everyone also expects to be taken care of in their old age (and by other people's children if neccesary). They obviously expect the next generation to be productive and not destructive as they take over the world, and yet many don't want to pay the dues for that generation to be raised that way today, either financially or in time/effort raising and training them, or both. Human beings are often selfish, and maybe some true difficulty would allow that to be eroded.

Who is actually being enslaved? Well, I KNOW that some countries have true slave labor (women are often in this position in places like S. Yemen, and Chinese political prisoners suffer in slavery as well), and we buy cheap partly because of that (slaves don't get a cut of the profits, you see). So they're our slaves, aren't they? That is something we should complain about--I wonder why, as a nation, it doesn't bother us that much?

-- S. Kohl (kohl@hcpd.com), October 16, 1999.

Hate to burst your bubble, but check out the 16th Amendment of the Constitution of the United States (re: taxation on income).

-- phread (lurking@y2k.org), October 16, 1999.

http://www.unixus.net/rocc/uscon/doc16.html ?

-- S. Kohl (kohl@hcpd.com), October 16, 1999.

bbb,

We pay income tax on privately issued money, aka federal reserve money, that is constitutional. Taxes paid on public money such as U.S. Note issued money is unconstitutional.

S. Kohl, Infrastructure and government protection is ALL covered by property, sales, etc. tax. Income tax is solely for interest paid to the debt and some, but few, social programs.

-- J mercer (mercer@usa.net), October 16, 1999.

"S. Kohl, Infrastructure and government protection is ALL covered by property, sales, etc. tax. Income tax is solely for interest paid to the debt and some, but few, social programs."

-- J mercer (mercer@usa.net), October 16, 1999.

Do you have a source I could look at?

If what you say is true, then it still seems to me that the services and infrastructure the government provides are nevertheless being provided "as is" because of the existence of income taxes--otherwise money would have to be taken from sales and property taxes, etc., to pay for the interest on the debt. And then there's still the balance of the debt to be paid off.

-- S. Kohl (kohl@hcpd.com), October 16, 1999.

S. Kohl,

If money was issued interest free by the US Congress (which is "audited" by US voters) as the constitution demands, then there would be no reason for income tax. But since the PRIVATE "Audit Free" Federal Reserve issues the money with interest we must pay the interest. And before anyone opines that the Federal Reserve isn't private because of the Presedentail appointed Board of Governors, please do some research and find out how many of the twelve votes they have. The other voting members are appointed by REGIONAL FEDERAL RESERVE BANKS. Talk about conflict of Interest.

Hope that helps

-- Jack (mercer@usa.net), October 16, 1999.

Mr Kohl,

I pay far far more in taxes then I get in return in services. The vast majority of what I pay in taxes goes into transfer payments, ie taking MY money and GIVING it to someone ELSE. THAT I resent. In effect my fellow citizens have robbed me of my money, but unlike a common criminal don't even have the balls to take it from me in person but send the STATE in as the collection agent.

-- kozak (kozak@formerusaf.guv), October 16, 1999.

Here's some support Mr. Kohl; well said. Taxes have to be paid now, whatever the form. I imagine our courts find income tax to be quite legal in spite of our forum's constitutionalists.

-- Sand Mueller (smueller@azalea.net), October 16, 1999.

Sand Mueller,

Our taxes ARE legal, the income taxes are the only taxes in question and they are INDEED legal. Because it is the taxation of PRIVATELY- ISSUED money. The constitution and courts tell us we can't have our income taxed on US issued money, i.e. US Notes. This is precisely why no one pursued the implementation of income tax before the money went to be privately issued. But after the money began to be issued by private or "semi-private" central banks, income tax was fair game, and those legislation drafters new this.

PS: Be careful of how you throw labels around (like constitutionalist); attempting to discredit an individual by slapping a label on him/her simply because he/she shares ONE view with a group is not only unfair but ignorant!

-- Jack (mercer@usa.net), October 16, 1999.

JACK: Read the book "The Creature From Jekyll Island".

the author, who managed to live to tell all, clearly lays out the inner workings of the Evil Monster, including the fact that, just as the notes cleverly deceive Joe Public by the phrase "Federal Reserve Note" printed on them, which makes people think that the money is fully issued/controlled/sanctioned by the US Federal government, then so do they create the illusion that all these "regional" Reserve Banks have an equal say in the voting!

NOT! It was a purposefully set-up illusion , again to get the US citizens to think that there was a regional/demographic distribution built-in so that there was equal say across the nation. FACT:The ENTIRE voting right rests with the NEW YORK BRANCH only.

-- profit_of_doom (doom@helltopay.ca), October 16, 1999.

My understanding is that the govt has every right to tax it's citizens. The problem is that the government borrows money from private banks and then uses taxation to pay them off with interest. It's a con game. We ought to obey the law and pay our taxes, but work relentlessly to end the cynical abuse of it for private gain.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), October 16, 1999.

With regard to Irwin Schiff's point of view about the income tax, I urge everyone to visit The Tax Protester's Hall of Fame at: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2278/ which describes many of the favorite arguments used by so-called "tax protesters." Also, note the case of Newman vs Schiff at: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2278/newman.html ....which describes Mr. Schiff's $100,000 offer to anyone who could prove that there IS a law requiring persons to file a tax return and pay income tax. The judge ruled that the plaintiff was correct (and Schiff was wrong) but denied plaintiff relief for other reasons--GOOD READING!!!

-- Don Chen (DChen@newbie.xxxcom), October 17, 1999.

"...to disarm the people - that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." -- George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380.

"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." --James Madison, The Federalist Papers No. 46 at 243-244.

-- death is not too high a price (FREEM@..N), October 17, 1999.

So, you like your heavy chains do you Mr. Kohl? Good, because more will soon be added... I hope you like being so burdened by them you can't walk upright... Do you also like torture? FOOL! The personal income tax is UNCONSTITUTIONAL! You seem glad to give up your freedoms one by one don't you? People like you are the reason we must always guard ourselves agianst tyranny, becuase people like you are always willing to open the back door for the tyrants, and then praise them for "making the trains run on time". You deserve what you get, but don't drag us down with you.

-- Crono (Crono@timesend.com), October 17, 1999.