Places to Go. Headaches to Have--or maybe alleviate.greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread
O.K., here is the skinny for newbies to this forum or "oldies" who haven't had the opportunity to really peruse the changing lay of the land with regard to Y2k lately.
Come to this thread for news "scoops." The most important of these "scoops" will be potentially scary news stories with regard to Y2k. Most will also be documented with links so you can read the stories for yourself, and decide for yourself.
Go to the newly functioning "Debunking Y2k Board" to get the opposite views on the scariest of stories and our comments on same. There, you will also read widespread criticism of any story posted on this forum, unrelated to Y2k, that concerns "scary things." (To be fair, you gotta admit the "Nostradamus King of Terror threads" on this forum were pretty much flops. No "King of Terror" in July, 1999. No "King of Terror" in September, 1999. You get my drift.) Lots of name calling over there, but if you come in with a legitimate question they will answer fairly. You will be tested first. They have to make sure you're not a troll or not playing games. The test isn't hard to pass. All you need is an honest question. You may need to repeat it.
The address is:
Now, "Biffy" is another story. (There's a link to "Biffy" on the debunking forum) "Biffy" is about debunking Gary North. With that stated purpose, you can imagine it's a rough and tumble place to be.
However, if you want to get a broad perspective, give it a go.
Give a go to all of the above. Broaden your horizons.
-- educator (email@example.com), October 14, 1999
Sorry. I should have said, "Come to this board for news "scoops."
-- educator (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 14, 1999.
I did go there and I am glad I found out about this board from there. I got the feeling that most of the posters were really preparing but trying to act like they were 'in the know' by making fun of folks who state they are preparing. IMO most of the post come across as e mail from a bunch of first line supervisors using the company intranet.
-- Carol (email@example.com), October 14, 1999.
Also see the Senate Y2K Committee's 100 day report:
-- Linkmeister (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 14, 1999.
Debunking Y2k webboard
Sorry. They are the "most offensive" for content,overall breadth and depth, and pure vile. Why should ANYONE..play by THEIR ***RULES***??
Tuesday, 13-Jul-1999 10:07:14
I can't believe you are falling for their pitch. You missed the real point of all of this even though you state it: THE DOUBLE STANDARD.
YOU put on the Straight Jacket of Conforming to the rules of Polite Society and they will do what?? RUN YOU OVER.
It is INTENTIONAL. Never forget that. Time after time, they have posted here and on Biffy for me to come and "debate your peers" and I refuse to give them that status. Even Heller and Yourdon are not my peers. THEY have lost all claim that they are peers to ANY OF US with their EXTREMISM. And make no mistake, Yourdone&Toast will now make every effort to "restore his image" for business purposes but from DAY ONE, he encouraged the nonsense that was long found on his own Forum. His claims that he was "too busy to correct every error" are hog wash. Late in the day, to try to keep the "Movement" shored up he began to appear more and more daily. When all failed and he made an ASS of himself in front of the Senate of the USA's hearing with his canned appeal to the families with evoked images of his family,,,,he LEFT.....to count his money. Heller has no status in any "real world" I know so let him play with someone he considers "too moderate" Paul Milne.
In short, they insist: YOU must play by the "rules of the road" but they will run you off that road with the Tractor Trailer crossing the double line using their double standard as the Steering Wheel.
That is why I don't post there. When a Steve Heller or a bunch of Children aged 50 can dare assume they can do that with impunity to me, I leave their playing field. That they do it to unsuspecting "newbies" is their intent.
The purpose of the Yourdon board is to "snare newbies". A new set of posts about "Y2k for newbies" has been appearing routinely there for weeks. They are RECRUITING. THAT is clear. Whether it is for ego, money, or political agenda that is their purpose.
Therefore, the goal is the suppression of dissention.
In order to do that they want: YOU to play by their rules and they will decide if you are "worthy"... ELSE: the dreaded "delete". (To which I would use GONG.)
ANY CLAIMS to "fairness" are absurd.
I could (with a substantial grant to pay for the time needed) respond to their idiocies in a detailed scholarly way supplemented by not hundreds but thousands of refs. and URLs. Since several books are in the works about the Y2k Doom Extremism there is no need for me to do that (and I make more money in business so I can't justify the effort anyway.)
BETTER, it is not necessary. We already know that what they have long predicted has fallen apart from "The Iron Triangle" to the "Billions of embedded chips".
What is also NOT NECESSARY......is to "Play their Game", on their turf, with their silly rules vs. normal discourse.
They are not a "Debating Society's Hall" nor Franueil Hall. Not even your local Town Hall.
THEY ARE A "BAR ROOM" and some of them have been DRUNK on Y2k Mis-information/Propaganda/FearMantras for a long time.
Some are VESTED INTERESTS with web sites peddling everything from Gold coins to dried food and recipes for Y2k Survival Meals to "non-hybrid seeds" at FIVE TIMES Burpees' prices for the same species.
Others direct traffic to Hyatt, "Dear Karen" and of course: Loser Wire and North.
Some of the regulars at EY are skilled infighters in the "radical" politics wars where those who play with White Gloves at Academic Teas are routinely drawn and quartered for the amusement of the "faithful" and the re-inforcement of their views.
Try this: they are the VIET CONG of Y2k. Everywhere you go, you see their imprint and their Northian/YoreToasted thoughts.
EVERYWHERE. It even comes out of the mouths of responsible people who should know better. In the same what that the Religious Right forces the "debate" to shift towards their side by continuous pressure of the FEW, the VC of Y2k force US to discuss :
1. "PREPARING" for something whose impacts are barely beginning to become clear. WHY??
2. "Debating" their "We are right, all others are Pollies" TRIPE.
3. Wasting our bandwidth with every piece of manure they try to pass off as "information" amidst the legitimate posts and THEN...demanding that we "prove" they are WRONG!!!
4. Wasting everyone's time with endless repeats of the same DISCREDITED "theories" from JoAnne's Effect "proving" the Y2k doom is justified to "time dilation", "billions of chips", "not enough time" all the way to the Road Signs for the NWO/UN patrols come the take over.
I find the "demand" for "all others" to play by Roberts and other established debating structures to be the MOST OFFENSIVE THING the Pit Regulars do. They are using the most obvious of the Nazi and Communist Cell techniques: DO IT TO THEM BEFORE THEY WOULD DO IT TO YOU.
(I think it fair to say that I have learned to play their game far better than the Creature "a" can play with me. Today's feeble attempt of his follows.)
They do it to all dissenters from the "Party Line" and the few corrections to one of their own comes only because they know there are watchdogs lurking and waiting to pounce either there or at Biffy/De=Bunk (and elsewhere). (Sidebar, its rather curious that the flow of interchange is greater from C.Sissy2k to EY's Pit than the other way. In fact, there are probably as many posts from De-Bunk y2k on EY if you subtract CREATURE "a"'s daily dozens of repeats from "Citizen" Milknee. ))
Frankly, I am proud to say that the day after I mirrored post after post of their own denegration of the moderates, the Yourdon forum announced that they would split into two.
Mostly I merely C&Pasted their own words and that was enough to get the job done (aside from a few comments in the subject line).
Now, as I predicted even before Yourdone&Toast left, the solid clay of the board is dissolving into the mud it has been made of and soon will dissolve away. They can't build anything "solid" on Quicksand. NEITHER COULD YOURDON and so he left.
I admit to using THEIR tactics on them. And my defense is simple:
NO ONE HAS TO PLAY BY THEIR "RULES"??
If I go to "debate" someone at a University, I would happily comply by Robert's and the assorted rules of the road.
At the Flying Pig Society Propaganda Board (that is what Ed Yourdon's forum has been since the beginning), there is no attempt to "moderate" anything.
There is no Michael Kingsley or William F. Buckley to call "time outs".
Most Offensive Y2K-Related Statements: A Nomination (Mr. Decker) (12-Jul-1999 17:52:09)
Consider the source. (MN) (12-Jul-1999 18:02:49)
Re: Most Offensive Y2K-Related Statements: A Nomination (W0lv3r1n3) (13-Jul-1999 08:44:29)
Sorry. They are the "most offensive" for content,overall breadth and depth, and pure vile. Why should ANYONE..play by THEIR ***RULES***?? (cpr) (13-Jul-1999 10:07:14)
I guess that its about methodologies (again) (W0lv3r1n3) (13-Jul-1999 11:14:08)
Actually, there is a body of thought that there is far more to it than you may want to believe. (cpr) (13-Jul-1999 12:42:19)
Re: Actually, there is a body of thought that there is far more to it than you may want to believe. (W0lv3r1n3) (13-Jul-1999 13:04:15)
Re: I guess that its about methodologies (again) (Doc Paulie) (13-Jul-1999 16:34:58)
ATTN: CREATURE "email@example.com": Most Offensive :MASSIVE GOV'T CONSPIRACY COVERING UP "JO ANNE EFFECT" IN 64 NATIONS?? 64?? MUST BE THE N.W.O., RIGHT?? (cpr) (13-Jul-1999 09:21:45)
Press Release: CREATURE "a" (formerly known as firstname.lastname@example.org) GITS OutingsR Message. Starts Debunker Headline Service for Y2k Viet Cong Doom Zombies (cpr) (13-Jul-1999 11:07:38)
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi?acct=mb237006&MyNum=9 318748 34&P=Yes&TL=931816329
Back to main board
-- Here is (email@example.com), October 14, 1999.
Things must be slowing down in the zoo, so they've sent out a recruiting contingent. Must be cpr's getting tired of talking to himself. Note the clear and concise documentation of facts in this last rant.....whoops, you didn't find any? Sorry, don't expect any from cpr.
-- I'm (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 14, 1999.
Who is cpr anyway?...seems to be awfully fond of hearing his own voice. You know of course that soon, very soon, this thread will appear there....they cross-post more than any forum I've come across in a long time...
Call it Scapegoat Central. This will not be a popular metaphor for some but, hey,..it's 3am.
-- Donna (email@example.com), October 14, 1999.
Invitation for Surviving Members of the Debunking Board
T+10 Meeting Scheduled for January 10th, 2000
Discussion Topic: Was it really the code or prolific cyberterrorism
Time: 2pm - 4 pm (time to return home before curfew)
Location: Washington DC Warming Center 26-B, downstairs
Please bring your own food, water and provisions for "personal sanitation".
-- LiarLiar (Pants@Fire.ouch), October 14, 1999.
I visited that site a couple of times just to lurk and see what it was all about. I think I counted about 6 participants, and you really can't be sure of that, hell, they could all be the same person trying to have a conversation with themselves. I think I'll call the site "The Six Faces of Debunking." I read nothing over there that would convince me to become a debunker. As a matter of fact, they come here and use our forum for a source of information and news and then go back to their site and spin it and make fun it. There debunking lacks substance and facts. I didn't read any original thoughts there, only continuous put down of this forum.
Educator, there's nothing there to broaden anyone's horizons, it's truly is a waste of ones time.
-- Lookey Lou (LookeyLou@LookeyLouuu.xcom), October 14, 1999.
I've always thought that cpr made Paul Milne sound like a gentleman. Based on his DeBunky rantsand schizo conversations with himself, one easily comes to the conclusion that the man is truly damaged. And, Donna, he's Charles P. Reuben, one of the experts on Russ Kelly's Experts Page. (he's the second lowest impact at 0.75, only behind Nicholas Zvegintzov, who's at 0.4)
His latest statement, from August 1999, reads:
"Aside from minor accidents during Y2k testing quickly solved by human intervention, there is no evidence of any "emerging crisis". Thus, reality* suggests we lower the "warning flags" again. So I narrow the range down to 1.0 to 1.5."
"Work progresses and one I.T. report indicates that 96% of mission critical and non critical applications and embedded systems will see the end of final testing before 1/1/2000. That leaves 4.0% of the work not "finished". NOTE: that does not mean the work is not started. It means at the Large Corporate level: 4.0% is not finished. In all sectors of business, that alone is "better than usual" for failure and problems are every day things in all businesses or all would be "perfect". We know that is not the case EVER. Since the pessimists make the claim that the "failures are being hidden" the argument for "interconnectedness" falls apart. If everything were "interconnected" how could the "failures" be hidden?? That would imply the 45 Million Employees of large Corporations have the ability to "cover it all up". That is ludicrous. There are either real "impacts" or there are not. The argument for "they're coming soon" is old and stale. The Bottom Line here is simple: "problems" can be managed whether Y2k or the weather. If a manager can't deal with problems, he is replaced. Y2k is merely a business problem now that can be managed."
"The NERC information to be released in the next few days will remove most remaining concerns about the ability of Power Utilities to conduct business as usual (BAU)."
"That will end concerns about the so-called "iron triangle". It now begins to look as though the proverbial "bump in the road" might only be on a few back roads and have little consequence. The major analysts long ago stated that problems vis a vis Y2k would take place throughout 1999. Several estimates range from 15%-25% taking place before 1/1/ 2000. Now one well known Y2k "expert" claims he underestimated the ability to hide the problems that might have been found. I see no reason to comment on such a statement. The fact is there was major damage to business networks in the Orient from the well known Computer virus: CIH. There was no effect noted either in the Global 2000 supply chains or in Corporate earnings. The Dow, Nasdaq and S&P may be irrational but they do measure earning power and consumer confidence in several ways. There is no reason to believe the Retail market will not set every record known in the 4th Quarter as we celebrate the Last Festival of the Merchants of the 20th Century. Like Dr. Yardeni, I have long questioned the ability of the economy to continue faced with the impacts of Y2k and all sorts of serious problems from offshore. But only a True Fool argues with reported results to date."
"Bottom line?? We have have underestimated the ability of the US/ European and World economy to handle all problems whilst overestimating Year 2000 impacts. History will answer such questions not I. Charlie Reuben DALLAS, A YEAR 2000 READY CITY."
-- (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 14, 1999.
Wrong. I have most of the standard lines of ALL of them. Filed by name. 100 plus. From the Big names to the odd balls. From the Peasants to the Ph.Ds.
-- t (email@example.com), October 14, 1999.