God help us. Reading the postings today have made me realize that the flaming and doomer-polly infighting is getting out of hand.. I know I'm guilty as hell of it, as well as many others. I just want one thing answered, civilly if possible by the resident pollys and doomers too.

Flint, Y2KPro, Cherri and all other Pollies, all I would like to know is what happens IF we 'doomers and fearmongers' are correct? IF we are wrong, the most we have to endure is the scorn and laughter of family and freinds... My question to you is, what are you willing to put up on the bet that we are right, and you ARE wrong?

Give up all your preps to a DWGI family and join the starving masses? I'd say thats fair, seeing how you wouldn't be here unless you WERE making preps to survive. Tell me I'm incorrect. Go on... don't bullshit the rest of us.

More than anything, those who make a concerted effort to 'flame' the GI postings as "fearmongering", "panic-lovers", "doomers" and "tinfoils" just may as well be guilty of crimes against humanity. For being argumentative for the sake of it, and being openly hostile to potential 'doomers', they just may scare a FNG or (politely) a newbie into NOT preparing. What then? Will YOU have the testicular/ovarian fortitiude to stand up IF THINGS GO TO SHIT and take part the blame for the potential casualties of the Y2K bug? If you aren't trying to be part of the solution, then just try shut the hell up. You are all potentially part of the problem. If you have LEGITAMATE proof that this WON'T happen, then contribute it, but if not, just as if you have no proof that it WILL be a problem, then only contribute to the positive side of the house.

We need to help the newbies and regulars and the trolls and anyone else who wants it. To use the much abused quote "Can't we all jest get along?"

-- Billy Boy (Rakkasn@yahoo.com), October 12, 1999

Answers

Have you ever read that quote, "Fasten your seatbelt, but don't buy a friggin' tank"?

The surprising thing is that many of the "pollies" ARE fastening their seatbelts. They expect things to break. They just don't expect them to break to the extent Gary North and others like him think they will.

They ARE NOT discouraging people from preparing. They just don't think they need to stockpile artillery shells.

-- pollies (store@crackers.too), October 12, 1999.

Whatta heapin, stinkin' pile of soft-serve dook! Not the thread, but the market itself. Notice that Gold didn't drop -much- though. Gold has always been the best indicator of economic health. Economy healthy, gold low, economy in trouble, gold high... nothing new, but this pile o' crap market play... I want to see it spiral in from 10000 in a flaming crash that leaves Wall Street covered in the ten- deep piles of rotting day-trader carcasses... I want to see CEO's swan diving 34 floors to shatter their nuggets on the concrete like a rotten pomegranite. Call me irresponsible...Call me psycotic...Call me what you like, but a little bloodletting and carnage among the 'haves' of this world would be the highest rated show in history... When the "Crash" finally does come, I'll be here on wall street, sitting in a chair, and watching the ledges... Now THATS entertainment!

-- Billy-Boy (Rakkasn@Yahoo.com), September 28, 1999.

-- (shut@thehell.up), October 12, 1999.

Reading the postings today have made me realize that the flaming and doomer-polly infighting is getting out of hand.. I know I'm guilty as hell of it, as well as many others. I just want one thing answered, civilly if possible by the resident pollys and doomers too.

LOL!!

Starts out with the olive branch and then just tosses this in:

More than anything, those who make a concerted effort to 'flame' the GI postings as "fearmongering", "panic-lovers", "doomers" and "tinfoils" just may as well be guilty of crimes against humanity.

So you want a "civil" answer and you go on to accuse the pollys of CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY??????

LOL LOL ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO

-- (LOL@LOL.LOL), October 12, 1999.

that still doesn't answer my question. (hadda dig for THAT one didn't you) Like I stated before, I can admit my mistakes and misdeeds, and attempt to learn from them. Can you?

-- Billy Boy (Rakkasn@yahoo.com), October 12, 1999.

It's easy to attack, but the question still stands...

I can see it's gonna be a long battle with people on this one...LOL

-- Billy Boy (Rakkasn@yahoo.com), October 12, 1999.

Let's use a storm analogy again....A hurricane is 75 miles off the coast of Florida. It's a huge hurricane as hurricanes go. It has been moving erratically and appears that it is more likely than not to move eastward rather than hit the coast. But there are some complex weather variables that could cause the storm to swing westward. Everyone marvels at the size and strength of this storm. It's predicted that if it were to sweep across Florida every thing in it's path would simply be totally carried away by these 200 m.p.h. winds. It would be by far the most devasting catastrophe in U.S. history. The problem facing State government is this. By all accounts the storm will continue eastward.If the governor calls for the most massive and immediate evacuation in world history, there will surely be many deaths and mass confusion and panic and he will absolutely be voted out next election. But if he decides to tell the populace that things are not as bad as they seem, millions of lives would be lost. Now the governor is a true political animal, so he decides to go with the odds and reasure every one to gather a few supplies and batten down the hatches. He convinces himself that since a storm of this magnitude has never struck land before his state will only feel the side effects as it roars along the coast.Should he have warned the people,even at the expense of huge problems, or should he have urgently ordered everyone to as calmly as possible evacuate the state?

-- citizen (lost@sea.com), October 12, 1999.

I'd like to take you back to a thread entitled:

Confessions of a Y2K-Prep Quitter

"I'm exhausted. I'm out of moral courage, and out of ideas. My spirit has been broken by the ridicule that is heaped upon me for the past 8 months for wanting to take this one prudent precaution of leaving our urban area, even just temporarily. I'm ready to face the unpleasant and possibly severe consequences of being ill-prepared in a volatile environment rather than face the prospect of going against democratic rule in our ever peaceful household. If Y2K turns out to be a BITR, and I am wrong about it's impact (but have disrupted my family) then I will spend my remaining years the subject of more ridicule, ongoing discredit, and quiet snickers among those I love so dearly. (Especially my child.)"

If YOU are wrong, are you willing to admit that you have had a negative affect on this family? That maybe thousands of relationships and families have been damaged or destroyed by "doomers and fearmongers"? That people have hurt themselves financially and professionally by buying into your philosophy?

And while I'm at it, let me say for maybe the 1000th time on this board - never, not once have I seen ANYONE say "don't prep". What I have seen is dozens of posts by radical doomers that would convince most casual observers that to be Y2K aware is a form of crackpot-ism. Prep discourager #1 --> Paul Milne.

-- RC (randyxpher@aol.com), October 12, 1999.

Ha hahaha, loved that follow up by 'shut the hell up'. Don't worry, Billy Boy, I've experienced the return-of-the-old-post myself earlier on in the game. It's embarassing, for a moment. But really quite human. A lot of people are doing flip-flops from one week to the next. Best to use a different handle, if you feel a bit of inconsistency coming on. Classic y2k syndrome.

Anyway, you made a good point when you wrote that Pollys and Doomers (wherever that is on the spectrum, rollercoaster) are ...all potentially part of the problem. We should remember that as things heat up a lot more people are going to be passing by this forum over the coming months. There's got to be a way into this ongoing discussion without having to fight your way through a thicket of flame postings. And I say this as someone who has flamed on occasion. If it carries on, only the most determined diggers with skins like alligators are going to stick around long enough to cut their way through this forum. We are now very short of time, and time is what this is all about. New people are going to have to absorb a lot of information in a very short period. It took many of us in the Y2K scene a long time to get a grip, a sense of perspective, with which to cope with Y2K on a rational level. This has been especially true in my case, as a non-technical. Many many people who will pass through this forum in the coming days will no longer have the luxury of 6 months, a year, to do the research. And for those who reach a really pessimistic conclusion, they are not going to have the time to get the resources together necessary to match their expectations. They are going to be in need of new thinking and calm voices. There are many roles in threads that can be useful to help newbies understand what's going on. Linkmeister and Diane Squire often play a useful role, finding old threads or relevant links. Maybe there are others.

Anyway, just a few new thoughts from a long-time, mainly lurker.

-- Chris Byrne (cbyrne98@hotmail.com), October 12, 1999.

I want to see the thread where somebody seriously advocated "stockpiling artillery shells", please. Or is this another unrepresentative exaggeration ?

-- Count Vronsky (vronsky@anna.lit), October 12, 1999.

I agree with Chris Byrne. The traditional doomer flame, stock up or shut up has run out of time, or will do soon. What have we got to say to people arriving December? If we don't have a new message, a hungry people will create their own, Who's the local doomer? Get his stash.

-- Pieface (pieface@dibblywho.com), October 12, 1999.

Got 14 days of preps? If not, get started now. Click here.

Click here and check out the TB2000 preparation forum.

Can't get a good price on something? Click here and check out the cooperative preps thread.

-- Stan Faryna (faryna@groupmail.com), October 12, 1999.

Every person labelled as a 'doomer' or a 'polly' has it within their personal power to stop themselves from flaming/bickering/arguing/aggressing. This goes without saying, of course.

Prince: Where be these enemies? Capulet! Montague! See what a scourge is laid upon your hate, That heaven finds means to kill your joys with love; And I, for winking at your discords too, Have lost a brace of kinsmen: all are punish'd. (Romeo and Juliet, Act 5, Scene 3)

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), October 12, 1999.

Hey Randy,

It's idiots like you that discourage people from making prudent preps. It's the ridicule that you and others have fostered among the general population which have stressed out the "quitter" and caused the child to disrespect the parent.

Milne gets my prep-blood boiling. If he doesn't do it for you, don't read the posts. They're all clearly marked.

I'm not moving out of the city, but I do have a rural bugout option if necessary. If things go bad quickly, there is always the possibility that I won't make it there in time.

That's a choice I've had to make.

I hope you're comfortable with your choices.

-- nothere nothere (notherethere@hotmail.com), October 12, 1999.

I consider myself a "Doomer". I can state factually something that no DGI can say. If TSHTF I will have a very good chance of staying alive, my daughter and wife will have a good probability of staying alive. If nothing happens there will be needy people receiving food from what I will donate to charity. I think the forum could be more polite. There are people posting who are poor debaters and slightly rude.

-- Mr. Pinochle (pinochledd@aol.com), October 12, 1999.

Here's a direct response... in the event of a "water landing," I'll deal with it. SOME pessimists on this forum have the impression ALL optimists cannot handle themselves. Wrong. Very wrong. Even if you are right, Billy Boy, a worst case scenario is not a death warrant. In hard times, a full pantry is a comfort. Real survival skills, however, are developed through real life experience facing adversity. You cannot develop them through an Internet browser. Don't mistake a sunny disposition (like mine) for softness.

Personally, I'm not asking anyone to take responsibility for my choices. I can only hope the folks who drain their retirement savings or bankrupt themselves preparing for Y2K will demonstrate the same level of personal responsibility.

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), October 12, 1999.

Mr. Decker,

Just how many "doomers" do you know that have gone bankrupt or drained all of their retirement? Boy, I must have missed that thread, could you please point it out to me? I need to have a serious discussion with these people.

Me, I have shelled out a few bucks, but in no way am I about to go bankrupt over Y2K. Wish I could do something with my retirement, as it is tied up in stocks, but hey... I guess I have another 20 years to build it back up... if I'm lucky. I'm cannot pull it out unless I leave my current position, and that I'm not planning on doing in the near future. I'll let it ride, it may go down, but then it may go up. Nobody knows!

Please, that was a serious question about the thread of people going bankrupt just to prepare.

Ms. Cannot-Say

-- (cannot-say@this.time), October 12, 1999.

Mr. Decker,

Well put.

Regards,
Andy Ray

-- Andy Ray (andyman633@hotmail.com), October 12, 1999.

My Dear Mr. Decker,

I forgot to address this issue on my two earlier posts to you. How is your new job going?

Ms. Cannot-Say

-- (cannot-say@this.time), October 12, 1999.

In real life, I do not know any serious pessimists. I have read a number of threads where people claimed to have taken money from retirement accounts. I've read others where the posters (Andy) suggested maxing the credit cards to finance preparations. According to Steve Hewitt, people have divorced and have experienced other problems over Y2K preparation. You might want to ask him directly at Christian Computing....

The new job is fine. I have a meeting with my elected officials and I'm just relaxing before another session until midnight. Thanks for asking.

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), October 12, 1999.

My Dear Mr. Decker,

Hope that the postings of us today won't get your blood pressure up for your session. Keep us posted on what is going on re that front.

Have a good meeting.

Ms. Cannot-Say

-- (cannot-say@this.time), October 12, 1999.

Won't all the pollies be dead, our spit-cooked corpses roasted by Invar and served to Mr. Milne at a celebration diiner of some sort?

Where's Linkmeister when you need him?

Curious Regards,
Andy Ray

-- Andy Ray (andyman633@hotmail.com), October 13, 1999.

"A fireman is a fireman, not because he believes everything will burn, but because he believes much can be saved. Doctors don't believe in death, they believe in life, and a survivalist is not a survivalist because he believes everything must be destroyed or that everyone must die. He believes that life and freedom can be saved, if people of good will are prepared." (Richard Rafleet)

Thanks for the good quote, Booann.

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), October 13, 1999.

"Hey Randy,

It's idiots like you that discourage people from making prudent preps."

Couldn't agree less.

"It's the ridicule that you and others have fostered among the general population which have stressed out the "quitter" and caused the child to disrespect the parent."

I have neither ridiculed nor fostered the ridicule of anyone. I genuinely feel bad for the "quitter". Her pain and stress, however, were most likely caused by reading one too many posts about needing quicklime to bury her children and drinking dog piss out of rusty hubcaps.

"Milne gets my prep-blood boiling. If he doesn't do it for you, don't read the posts. They're all clearly marked."

He doesn't do it for me, but that's not the point. How many casual visitors to one of Milne's various haunts have read a couple of his vile rants and decided that Y2K prep is for the loony?

"I hope you're comfortable with your choices."

Reasonably so. Are you comfortable with the "prep quitter's" pain?

-- RC (randyxpher@aol.com), October 13, 1999.

The pollys really are a basket case. Andy Ray, Y2K Pro, they find a few far out examples on the forum, and apply it to everyone here, to the hundreds of other "normal" people that are here looking for help and answers.

Ignore these idiots. It's just another distraction.

Tick... Tock... <:00=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), October 13, 1999.

Linkmeister?

Patient Regards,
Andy Ray

-- Andy Ray (andyman633@hotmail.com), October 13, 1999.