(A Thread Requested by regulars on this forum: calling for help from everyone who knows something on the subject as well as for reference to other threads in the archives).

Ground rules for this thread:

Describe what you NEED TO KNOW or what you DO KNOW about solar and other energy alternatives, emphasizing how to do it, where to find reputable suppliers, costs and, most important, what can be done practically in the time frame before rollover -- or not.

I have a question, myself -- I will be shortly getting a 100W ham rig. I am prepped personally for non-electric for 18 months, but have a 8KW diesel generator. Can I use batteries/inverter usefully (lots of fuel) to keep rig operational (and which should I get, costs, etc) or should I get small solar panel and, if so, which brand, size, etc. Am in NY state, not a whole lot of sun.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), October 07, 1999

Answers

I want to know about the how-to's of using a solar panel to charge a big battery (like a car battery maybe?); and then using the battery to run small electric items. What do I need, how do I put it together, and where do I buy it? I'm thinking about running things like an electric iron (if we need to sterilize bandages), comfort items like a coffee pot or a hair dryer if the weather's cold etc. Also, is there a good book on electricity for dummies LOL?

I have located some solar small "universal" battery chargers at an online company called sun-mate.com; they run $17.95 and can charge AA's, C's, D's, all nicads of course. Haven't yet received my order as I just sent it in, so have no comments on their service yet. They also carry trickle chargers that will top off your car battery with solar power; also solar power radios that are much less expensive than the Baygens. Let you know how I like them when they arrive. Appreciate any help y'all can offer.

-- mommacarestx (harringtondesign@earthlink.net), October 07, 1999.

Big Dog,

If you don't get a lot of sun, solar panels might
not be such a good idea. They drop their output
with just a little haze and are quite expensive
($6.25/watt). It would be better to get a pelton
wheel if you have enough head. That's a water
source at least 30' high and not too far away.

Batteries and inverter are a good choice. Use
deep cycle batteries (at least 18" high). 12 volt
is good because you can use a lot of 12 volt items,
24 volt has less voltage drop and is sometimes
preferred. Trace inverter is a good brand. You don't
need the sine wave model unless there is something
that you need that won't run on square wave. You
won't know till you try but the square wave will
work on most things. If you get solar panels, keep
them close to the batteries and use a large enough
wire guage that there will be less than a .05 voltage
drop. I don't have the formula in front of me.

-- spider (spider0@usa.net), October 07, 1999.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr (pic), near Monterey, California

Here's another thread about solar power: Please, Critique My Solar Plan. Update... I've so far purchased two of the heavier duty marine batteries and a charger to allow them to be charged from the household electricity. I found a place in my garage where they can be housed and am now cutting ventilation holes to the outside at the top of the closets where they will be kept. I'm awaiting architectural approval on the panels, and am about to go ahead and buy them without the approval. I'm planning to not install them right away, but rather to pack them in a way that will protect them from EMP. This should also give them some protection from theives in case of an acute period of social unrest (unless they get into the house).

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), October 08, 1999.

Spider -- We have considered microhydro since we have a lot of flow though slight drop (so submersible would work). Relatively speaking, quite expensive, though ($1K) plus the extra stuff needed.

I'm also thinking that a golfcart battery would do for my ham rig (don't need L-16 type). Agree? Do I need two batteries? Recommendations?

With respect to inverters, do I need Trace for such a small application? How about StatPower?

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), October 08, 1999.

i've got two 6-volt solar panels off of fence charging setups. i need the schematic to build a 12-volt charging system, and also the schematic to get 3, 6 and 9-volt outputs off the battery for radio and the like.

i know this info is out there, a point in the right direction would be appreciated.

thanx!!

-- Cowardly Lion (cl0001@hotmail.com), October 08, 1999.

We've just received two more 64w panels, total now four, and I plan to buy two more golf cart batteries, total will be six, from Sam's on Monday (cost about $50/each). I am absolutely awful about the working details; that's the one thing I've left up to Sweetie to handle.

We get our solar stuff from Roy at Four Winds and I plan to drop him a note, ask him to look at this thread and see if he has time to answer some questions. I know things are getting really busy for him but he might be able to jot down some info.

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), October 08, 1999.

Sorry, forgot to include the URL:

http://www.four-winds-energy.com/

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), October 08, 1999.

BigDog and others,

Here's some of my thinking. First, if you aren't already aware of it, the very first thing you need to do is go to the newsstand and get a copy of "Home Power" magazine. In general, it's the best single source of info I've seen on the topic.

The academics I've talked to around here recommend Siemens (formely ARCO), Solarex and BP Solar. I went with BP because they bought the Australian technology that boosted conversion efficiency to 17% (compared to 13%), which, according to the pundits, will make about a 30% difference in the power produced on those days of marginal sunlight. You can read about that in this month's Home Power. In the Southeast, we need higher voltage panels because summer heat decreases the panel's output. In NY this should not be as much of a factor.

You should also buy a charge controller. I went with a ProStar 20. You can get away with a much cheaper controller. At a minimum, a charge controller limits the charge going in to the battery to prevent overcharging. It can do much more. Controller features to consider:

1. Low Voltage Disconnect (LVD) When battery voltage gets below a predetermined "set point", the current is cut-off. This prevents overdraining the battery. Overdraining is a chief source of premature battery failure.

2. PWM (pulse width modulated) charging. Tapers the charge as the final stages are reached. Supposedly the pulsed charging helps keep the lead plates in the battery freer of crystals. Crystals (lead sulfate?) are not chemically available to participate in the normal cycling of the battery.

3. Ampacity Does the ampacity of the controller match the size of the currents it will be asked to handle.

On the inverter question, I think there are several consideration. Different ham rigs use different power supplies. If I'm not mistaken, some are 12V and some 120V. I assume a 12V is the more versatile for emergency operations. Find out who handles the "field Day" for your local ham club. Talk to them about this. If you can't find anyone, I can hook you up with some folks here locally who will tell you anything you need to know.

The batteries will be a great luxury because you can load them up with juice and make extremely efficient use of your generator. I know when I use my generator, about 80% of the time it's just running with no load. That's bad for the generator and bad on fuel.

You can get a lot of 12V stuff at boating and RV centers. I'd still get an inverter. 300watt continuous rating minimum. This will be about $70. For $300 you can get a 1000 watt inverter. I may have to do this (or at least a 600watt) if I want complete use of my computer and printer. The big issue here is whether my printer will run on modified sine wave power. All these inexpensive inverters are modified sine wave. True sine wave inverters are expensive. Too expensive for the mere hobbyist. But some equipment will only run properly on sine wave.

Oh, well. That's enough rambling. Let me know if you want some ham contacts.

-- Puddintame (achillesg@hotmail.com), October 08, 1999.

BD, All the golf cart batteries I've seen are 6 volt, so in just about any situation you will need to buy 2 or 4 or 6 ets., to hook up in series to create your 12volts.

All the authorities I've seen say that 6 Volt golf cart batteries are the way to go for the first timer.

Two very valuable books on 12 volt power are "The 12 Volt Bible" by Miner Brotherton and "The 12 Volt Doctor" by and author named Beyr I believe. These are sometimes available in boating centers. I found them at Water World and Outer Banks Outfitters.

There is another little book that I have seen but do not own called something like "An RV Guide to Photovoltaic Panels". (It was RV something.) The NC Solar Center had this book. The Solar Center is an extension service of NC State University. 1-800-33-NC SUN. Also, 919-515-3480

-- Puddintame (achillesg@hotmail.com), October 08, 1999.

First off we appreciate the "plug" for Home Power...Folks should know that you can download the electronic version of our current print issue from the website at http://weww.homepower.com (as well as a lot of other stuff). I produce the Home Power CD-ROMs, write a little and work the energy fairs with them.....

Someone asked:

"I want to know about the how-to's of using a solar panel to charge a big battery (like a car battery maybe?); and then using the battery to run small electric items. What do I need, how do I put it together, and where do I buy it? I'm thinking about running things like an electric iron (if we need to sterilize bandages), comfort items like a coffee pot or a hair dryer if the weather's cold etc. Also, is there a good book on electricity for dummies LOL?".

First thing, download the article LOADCALC.PDF from our website and read it until you understand it. Radio Shack has some basic electrical theory books and we have run numerous basics articles over the 12 years Home Power has been published. Unless you have a big system and lots of money to throw at it forget any heat producing electrical devices (coffee pot, iron, blow dryer), they use way too much power for a small system. You can come up with alternative ways to accomplish the work these provide using propane or wood. I would buy lots of sterile bandages or use a woodstove or solar oven for sterilization. Coffee makers use tons of energy...better to heat water on a stove and pour it through a drip coffee maker (ala Melita). Save the electrical power for things that really need it and use it efficiently.

I reccomend the folks at Alternative Energy Engineering as a source and reccomend you request their catalog from their website at http:// www.alt-energy.com. Wish I had more time to respond to questions but I'm turning down paying consulting jobs at this point...too much other stuff to do.

BTW, forget using a car battery...they won't live long if deep-cycled. I wouldn't even buy a "RV/Marine Deep Cycle" battery...pretty much a waste of money as it's the same type construction as the car battery (sponge lead plate). At a minimum I reccomend 6 volt golf cart batteries (two wired in series gives 12 volts) which Sams has for about $50 each.

Back to Work....DCK Home Power Magazine http://www.homepower.com

-- Don Kulha (dkulha@vom.com), October 08, 1999.

BD, a good starting point might be the two following threads already on this forum:

>a href="http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001 3jE">Link 1

and

Link 2

These are primers on batteries, inverters, sizing things, etc.

You ask:

Can I use batteries/inverter usefully (lots of fuel) to keep rig operational (and which should I get, costs, etc) or should I get small solar panel and, if so, which brand, size, etc. Am in NY state, not a whole lot of sun.

First, if you intend to operate at night you'll need batteries and an inverter, since a solar panel puts out zero power in the dark :) Or at least you'll need batteries -- you may be able to get the rig to run off of 12 or 24 vdc, but you're more flexible with an inverter.

Are you sure that all you'll be running is the rig? 100 watts? Trace Engineering -- muy reputable -- has a new inverter out, a 500 watt unit that includes built in battery charger and switches to switch the inverter from the AC source (generator) to battery operation. Look it up at one of the sources in the links above (Trace, Sun-Wind,Mr. Solar, Jade Mountain.) Shop around. The merchandise may be equal but the prices aren't all the same.

Don't forget that if you go batteries and inverter you need something to charge the batteries. Either a genny (which you have) or panels.

How much power? Don't know. I assume the 100 w figure is transmitter output power. Need to know how much power the receiver draws alone, how much the radio draws when the transmitter is keyed, and the duty cyle -- do you talk a lot or just listen?

-- de (delewis@XOUTinetone.net), October 08, 1999.

whoops, should be

Link 1

-- de (delewis@XOUTinetone.net), October 08, 1999.

Link 1

-- and again (again@and.again), October 08, 1999.

Link 1

-- . (-@-.-), October 08, 1999.

BIG DOG:

I have a question, myself -- I will be shortly getting a 100W ham rig. I am prepped personally for non-electric for 18 months, but have a 8KW diesel generator. Can I use batteries/inverter usefully (lots of fuel) to keep rig operational (and which should I get, costs, etc) or should I get small solar panel and, if so, which brand, size, etc. Am in NY state, not a whole lot of sun.

-- BigDog

I have addressed your specific question on our thread, "The Y2K Net is starting." Look for the thread, "PV-POWERED HAM RIGS." It gives you the nitty gritty numbers for using a 100-watt Ham Rig on voice for 4 hours a week. It's designed for newbies in alt. energy (Unless you are an oldie you won't know the many 'gotchas' on how to use the DEEP CYCLE wet cell batteries [FORGET about car batteries, or even marine batteries!] -- there are '50 ways to leave your lover' -- and destroy your lead-acid wet cell batts. And you no longer have time to get up on the crucial learning curve.)

Also, note I've said nothing about inverters --- you don't want a 100w ham rig that needs 120vAC input power --- make sure to buy one that used 12vDC as it's input.

Congrats on your plan to get a 100w ham rig -- keep in touch for the Y2K net details (frequencies/time schedules.)

Bill, kg4dhj

-- William J. Schenker, MD (wjs@linkfast.net), October 08, 1999.

BD- the info from the guy at home power was very good. We use solar in Central Vermont- only tough time tends to be November- but also suplement with wind power- helps in winter. do keep the panels cleaned of snow and ice at all times- and make sure they are angled south with no shading at all. We use a Trace inverter- 800 watt. Also a charge controler is a must. we have four batteries- Interstate deep cycle- wired in parallel to make a 12 volt system. the wind gen has it's own charge controler built into it.

The great thing about the Trace inverter that I have is that it has a built in battery charger unit- so I can use the gen set to recharge the battereis if no sun/wind for days at a time. Would never buy an inverter without one except for a cheapie type-

-- farmer (hillsidefarm@drbs.com), October 11, 1999.