repeat of question re: fireplaces

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I'm repeating this question because I posted it toward the end of a different thread and am not sure if any were still following it or not. I've seen the comments come up almost every time anyone mentions using a fireplace for heat, that often fireplaces will actually draw colder air into a place, that they're not very efficient for heat, etc. I've repleated similar phrases in some of my posts, as well. Whenever I've written about using the fireplace for heat, I usually put in some type of disclaimer that I realize that it's not the best solution or repeat that I understand that they can draw cold air into a house.

With so many statements made along those lines, I have to ask-- is it better to have a fire in a fireplace and risk drawing more cold air in, or to go without heat completely?

Thanks,

-- winter wondering (winterwondering@yahoo.com), October 07, 1999

Answers

Fireplaces pump too much air through the house because the updraft sucks in more air than just the fire needs.

Inserts improve the situation considerably because they pull in very little air, and most of it is used for combustion. They also radiate the heat much better, because they are semi-freestanding, so air circulates around the backside.

If you're stuck with a standard fireplace, try this: Hook up a dryer hose (that 4-inch aluminum foil stuff) to feed fresh (cold) air. Punch a hole in an outside wall and duct the air from the outside directly to the fireplace. Then limit the room air by putting a glass door (from a fireplace shop) over the fireplace opening, with someplace for the air duct to pass through.

Alternatively, if the fireplace is on an exterior wall, punch a hole through the firebrick and duct the cold air in that way. If you don't know how to do all this, get expert help.

This should greatly cut down how much room air is pulled up the flue, but I'm just guessing. If it works, tell us about it.

-- bw (home@puget.sound), October 07, 1999.


We used to heat a farm house that we rented with the fireplace. Of course the rooms furthest from the fireplace were the coldest. One big plus was the amount of rock in the fireplace (most of a wall). Once it got heated up, it let out heat for quite a few hours. If you could close off rooms that were not necessary it would help as well.

I would go with the fireplace rather than go without heat. Let's face it the pioneers used fireplaces and any source of heat is better than no heat in the middle of winter.

-- beckie (sunshine_horses@yahoo.com), October 07, 1999.


Hi, I am in your same situation. Pioneers also put bricks in their fireplace. Then when they got hot, they would take them out, wrap them in thick material, and take them to church. They would put them at the foot of their pews to keep them warm. I figure you could do that in your house as well.

I also notice that my fireplace has this wire mesh curtain. I figure if I close it, the wire will absorb and convey some heat while still letting in enough air. I have glass doors but I don't know if closing them is a good idea as they are not Pyrex.

Going with the wood stove idea, I have like a piece of cast iron that I was going to try putting it there, figuring it would heat up and radiate (kind of like a radiator). I don't know much about physics but I can figure a few things out.

-- Amy Leone (leoneamy@aol.com), October 07, 1999.


Hi, Winter,

My ex wife had a fireplace to heat her house, and I'm glad somebody mentiond the glass doors. By installing a set of glass doors, and keeping them shut, the amount of air drawn out of the house will be enormously reduced. She did this, and was able to keep her liveing room quite toasty. She also blew out the glass a couple of times by STUFFING the fireplace with dry two by fours made out of Douglas Fir (which she was able to get for free from a local mill). Her landlord got tired of replacing the glass, so he put in a piece of sheetmetal (steel is way better than galvanized steel, which tends to give off poisonous gas, or aluminum, which would likely melt). The sheetmetal worked as well as the glass, but was not as nice to look at.

Even if you don't put in glass doors (which might cost as much as a cheap wood heater), I agree that you're still better off having a fire.

May I suggest you try living without any heat for a few days before making up your mind about not having a wood heater. Sorry to be so pushy about getting a wood heater, but I'm still concerned about you getting hypothermia.

Al

-- Al K. Lloyd (all@ready.now), October 07, 1999.


One of teh columnists on the Westergaard site -- was it jim Lord hisself? -- posted an article and link to a "physicists andiron" or grate: a patented specially designed andiron that promises to increase the efficiency of a standard open fireplace by 4-5 times, or some such. The domain name, is www.texasfireframe.com and I have ordered one for myself, but it hasn;t arived yet. Go to this website: the claims, materials, and presentation look credible. I am hoping to be able to buy a new woodstove to replace an existing one, but this is the fall-back plan, a fireplace grate that should permit us to get by on the fireplace alone, if it comes to that.

-- Roch Steinbach (rochsteinbach@excite.com), October 08, 1999.


Roch, that URL is not opening--sez there's no URL like that. Are you sure of the URL?

Without looking at it, I'm very skeptical about the claims you make as to the efficiency. I'd believe maybe a 5% increase in efficiency.

But I'm willing to look at it, if you give me a URL that works.

Al

-- Al K. Lloyd (all@ready.now), October 08, 1999.


The fireplace does have glass doors-- but now I have to worry about "blowing them out"?! ;-) It is a 'manufactured' fireplace-- some places call them zero clearance I think. If I recall correctly ours was called a 'heatilator' and it does have 'blowers' to blow warm air into the room (but only when there is electricity). It has the little mesh screen thingy you can draw closed and hinged glass doors.

I didn't realize that it was better to have the glass doors closed, though. What do I need to do/not do to avoid blowing them out? I take it not overfilling it is one thing...

I did do a lot of calling around to woodstove and fireplace businesses about a wood stove insert. The stove inserts themselves were in the $400 to $600 ballpark. But revamping the chimney was in the $1500 to $2000 ballpark. Because our fireplace is on the smaller side and also because it is the manufactured (not masonry) type, several of the people I spoke with said it might not be possible (or legal or...) to add an insert. Starting from scratch with a woodstove, special chimney, hole in roof is at least as expensive as the insert-- if not more so. Converting the fireplace to LP gas was in the $2000-$2500 range (and not sure about the supply.)

I'm worried about the hypothermia aspect as well-- even more so for my mom. She won't have to go outside, so that will help. My sisters and I will do what needs to be done outside. We will try to baffle off the living room from the rest of the house-- although it's a very open design. We will not use the front door, but rather go out through the mud room door into the garage. Mud room can be closed off from the kitchen. So hopefully the garage serves as a buffer between the outside and the mudroom, the mudroom as a buffer between garage and kitchen. And maybe be able to hang blankets or ??? between kitchen and livingroom to help keep heat in the livingroom more....

I know this isn't ideal. But right now, it's the best we can do.

-- winter wondering (winterwondering@yahoo.com), October 08, 1999.


There used to be those tube thiings(shaped like big C's hooked together) that you put in the fireplace and built your fire on---it would draw the cold air into the tube and the fire heated it up and pushed it out into the room---I still see them around at junk stores---the problem is that they burn through after a while, but believe me--it is better than doing without---I used an inside fireplace during a 6 day storm and we were not veery warm(didn't have the tube thing), so I created a makeshift screen behind our chairs that were in front of the fireplace. It worked enough to keep us from freezing and we cooked there too. Good Luck.

-- catherine plamondon (Howaboutthis@idea.com), October 08, 1999.

Catherine, did a search on the web yesterday for that very thing! Must not have plugged in the right keywords because I couldn't find it. Will keep looking.

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), October 08, 1999.

Sorry, shouldn't have posted so quickly, had several more thoughts.

1. High heat can crack chimneys: When the sweeper came to our chimney he noted a coupld of small cracks, which he said were caused by a too-hot fire. He wasn't able to tell me what "too-hot" meant.

2. We also have an open living room but I am planning to add bi-fold doors to the openings. I shall have to fashion side panels out of plywood and molding because the opening isn't made for standard bi-fold sizes. I could put in those concetina doors, but unless I can find wood that's out. (The cats would rip the vinyl ones to get through.) If worst comes to worst, I shall use a couple of those mylar blankets at $2-3 apiece. The cats can simply paw them aside! Good for windows too. Maybe also would help if spread over the insulation in the attic or, if you're ambitious, stapled across the rafters. Should work like that expensive foil stuff--anyone got any expert opinion on the efficacy of using the blankets on the rafters? Available at Wal-Mart camping departments.

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), October 08, 1999.



For the "physicist's grate", www.texasfireframe.com does it for me every time. The inventor's name is Lawrence Cranberg, Ph.D. And he lists a voice/fax number of (512) 327-1794. Teh Website has kudos from a number of newspapers, including New York Times, Time, Scientific American, and of course testimonials from enthusiastic users who buy the things by the dozen for family and friends. As I say this was also endorsed by a coluimnist onWestergaard's. so I'm giving it a try and will let you know once it arrives -- if, that is I can still find this thread! Better call fro a free brochures, he says, or try that name agin in your search engine.

-- Roch Steinbach (rochsteinbach@excite.com), October 08, 1999.

winter wondering,

It's better to have a fire in the fireplace than to go without heat completely. It may not be EFFICIENT but it will provide warmth, as it has for eons. Your living room is probably already better insulated than the drafty cabins and castles of yore. Light the fire, keep it going and stay close by. You have the right idea - partition off the room with quilts or blankets if you need to to make a smaller space. You can keep bricks in the ashes, take them out, wrap them and tuck them into the foot of your bed (or bedroll). Keep a kettle of water warm for tea and cocoa - or for hot water bottles. Aladdin and other kerosene lamps will also add heat to a room.

And think of me - we'll be doing the same thing. Good luck!

-- Jill D. (jdance@mindspring.com), October 08, 1999.


WW, why use a fireplace at all? don't know where you're located, but the classified ads and shoppers around my neck of the Northeast are filled with used woodstoves for sale at very reasonable prices. Why not buy a woodstove and hook it up to your fireplace chimney? It's no big deal to do, and it gives you the vastly improved efficiency of a woodstove.

-- Cash (cash@andcarry.com), October 08, 1999.

Cash,

It may be no big deal to do (by the way, have you done it?), but my understanding is that a fireplace chimney doesn't cut it for use as a woodstove chimney. There are specialized linings that have to go around the fireplace chimney if converting from fireplace to woodstove use. At least that's what the woodstove people say. And it's those modifications to the chimney that are beaucoup bucks.

-- zero dinero (usually known as "winter wondering") (winterwondering@yahoo.com), October 08, 1999.


WW, get a wood stove and set it in front of the fire place. Make sure you put it up on some brick if you have a wood floor. Get 6 inch pipe and elbow for the stove. Buy a piece of steel well casing to go down through the chimney. They have a frame work that will fit into the chimney and screw down on the casing (like the thing that hold your Xmas tree up). Hook the pipe to the casing. Have your casing sticking out of the top of your chimney about 8 inches. Using the well casing you don't have to worry about heat or sparks going throught the pipe joints, pipe rusting out, etc. Go buy a spark/rain cap for the end of the casing sticking out of the top of chimney. Its simple, sturdy, safe and inexpensive.

Taz

-- Taz (Taz@aol.com), October 08, 1999.



winter wondering --

You said that you have a heatilator. This is great....you have the glass doors (needed to keep warm house air from being sucked up the chimney), and you do have air circulation around the heated metal parts of the fireplace, even with no blower going. This, properly fed, is the best fireplace you can have.

Now, all that you have to do is to use a tube (dryer vent, etc.) to bring the fireplace air in from the outside and your're in great shape. This might already have been done, since most heatilators were set up fairly efficiently.

[Remember to keep the glass doors closed when there's no fire going or the cold air will blow into the house.]

I have exactly that setup.....it will keep about 1000 square feet (well insulated) warmed to 65 when it's down below zero outside -- without the blower going -- and with the blower going full blast will heat the house to 75 under the same circumstances.

You don't need a huge fire.....the fire heats the metal insert, air flows over the insert, is warmed, and comes out. Some air will flow, even without the blower.

Want insurance against extra cold? Buy a cheap inverter (300 watts, $60 at Walmart) and a battery or two (deep discharge type, also at Walmart). Buy a cheap battery charger (10 amps), also at walmart.

When (if) you have electricity, charge the batteries, then use them (through the inverter) to run the blower when the power is off and if you really need everything the fireplace will put out.

This will work well if you have spasmodic power ==> on again, off again. It's also a lot cheaper than buying a wood stove and putting up with getting the chimney set up to code.

-- de (delewis@XOUTinetone.net), October 08, 1999.


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