I had a study last Wednesday night on this topic and I was wondering if the same dynamic is applicable where you serve. Do you see a schizophrenic-type view that many in our churches hold concerning the ability of the preacher to speak about the Bible and then the prohibition of many to think that he should not talk about anything deemed "political?" Why can't the preacher speak to political issues? Why do people compartmentalize?

I see relevant to this whole line of thought the myth that many hold that "You can't legislate morality."

I was just wondering if many of you have similar views by the people in the churches where you serve or do you even speak about political involvement. Don't limit this only to the political realm of dealing with abortion (I think that all of us agree, this is not a "political" issue, but one of much more significance.)

-- Anonymous, October 06, 1999

Answers

How would your congregation respond to this sermon:

l. Abortion is murder

2. Christians cannot support murder

3. Democrats support abortion

4. A Christian cannot be a Democrat

-- Anonymous, October 06, 1999

Duane...

Probably the response would not be one that would be deemed "desirable."

-- Anonymous, October 06, 1999

In areas where politics and morality intersect, we are more free to address issues. For example, the issue of Gay rights, especially homosexual marriage is a hot topic in our neck of the woods. The famous (or infamous) Jimmy Creech performed his lesbian marriage ceremony about 6 miles from our church building. Our congregation has appreciated my strong and vocal stand on that issue. On the other hand, were I to address tax reform, I would be stepping out of bounds. Did I just make any sense? If I did, it would be the first time. If I didn't, please forgive me. I have a bad cold, Its my 43rd birthday and I feel sorry for myself. So if you'll excuse me, I'm going back to my pity party. And its bi-partisan if you were wondering.

-- Anonymous, October 07, 1999

As ministers of the Gospel, and preachers of the entire Bible, we can't shy away from issues ... even political ones. I have never been afraid of speaking my mind on political issues from the pulpit, provided there is a biblical stance on the issue.

I do NOT endorse candidates from the puplit. Though I can't quote the law, I have heard, and believe, that a congregation could lose it's 501(c)3 non-tax status if that takes place. I have also heard that congregations must not use their newsletter politically for the same reason. Maybe someone could enlighten us better on this.

Even if it weren't against the law, I'm not sure that the pulpit is the best place to endorse particular candidates.

Now ... will I share my personal views one-on-one with someone? Sure ... why not.

With elections coming up in November, and national elections within the next year or so, it might be a great time for preachers to plan a series on the "political" issues, showing what the Bible has to say about them.

What do you think?

Darrell Combs

-- Anonymous, October 07, 1999

A word on sharing your person views.

At my last congregation (SW PA) I ventured to share my p.o.v. re: unions, and the general union mentality I saw in the region. Before heading to Florida Christian College, I worked for 6+ years for I.B.M. They have always been a "right to work" type of company, and though unions tried to gain a foothold in the workplace, they continually failed. The reason for this, I believe, is that they promoted and gave raises based on merit ... production and quality counted for something. Time on the job didn't.

Now, I appreciated that. I've never understood giving a reward (promotion or raise) to someone based only on the fact that they have been on the job the longest. Doesn't make much sense to me. To be very honest, I busted my tail in the quest to get ahead (I might preach a sermon on that, but it's another subject). I also felt that, as a Christian, I should do the very best job possible. It was a part of my witness.

I happened to share that p.o.v. with a Bible School class I was teaching, and shared it with the biblical concept of Christians striving to give 100% in whatever they do, all the time. In that class there were a number of folks who were union. Many had been union in the coal mines for many years, before the mines closed. And one man was the union rep for the company where he collected a pay check. Needless to say, they disagreed. And the man who was the union rep was instrumental in stiring up trouble for me and my family. Coincidence? Maybe, but I don't think so.

Anyway ... a long post to say, if you do share your personal views, even if they are supported by Scripture, you might find folks in disagreement (in fact, I'd almost bet you will).

Any other examples, good or bad?

Darrell Combs

-- Anonymous, October 07, 1999

Darrell...I think that your position is one that is probably the most realistic. Although, I see no idea how on one hand we get all the "Amens!" we need when we say that the Bible penetrates every aspect of our life and has something to say about all the issues of our day, and then on the other hand there are just certain things that preachers should not talk about from the pulpit. I was told once after preaching on environmentalism wackoism by a person that they "wish I'd get my nose out of politics and back into the pulpit."

-- Anonymous, October 07, 1999

Michael, I encourage you to continue to allow the Bible to affect all areas of life. The truth of Scripture must be applied for it to be effective. I too do not understand how people can compartmentalize God. I reckon their God isn't that big, that he can fit into a compartment.

There are 1000's of stories of how preachers get into trouble applying God's Word to life. May I encourage you by saying, there are millions of stories of how thankful people are that preachers apply God's Word to life. The congregation where I serve affectionately says from time to time; "There he goes again. He has gone from preaching to meddling."

May it ever be... Dave

-- Anonymous, October 08, 1999

Well, fellows, ISTM the scriptures would answer your questions. Jesus nor the apostles ever paid any attention to the politics of the world. They were interested in the spiritual aspect of our lives. They were interested in bringing others to Christ....period.

This is the reason Christians cannot go to war for the nation. His elegance is to Christ. If His kingdom was of the world then His followers would fight.

Just my thoughts!

-- Anonymous, October 08, 1999

Nelta...Good to hear from you ol' gal (I wasn't trying to be disrespectful with that). How are you? I haven't posted to RMBible List for quite a while, any interesting new threads? Or just same old?

I must say though your Mennonite views are not what I expected from you. How do you actually believe that pacifism is justified Scripturally? How do you balance Romans 13 with that?

-- Anonymous, October 08, 1999

Nelta,

What about Cornelius in acts 10?

-- Anonymous, October 09, 1999

Hello D, Mike and all,

First Mike, I was banned from RM-Bible because they didn't like what I wanted to talk about.

The way I look at the *war question* is it does not further the gospel of Christ. There are lots of facets to it but let me give you all something to think about. Christ died for the sins of all the world. People accept him in all nations. When we go to war with a nation and our Christian boys kill their Christian boys....is that love? Then if our Christian boys kill their NONchristian boys are they not taking away any hope of their ever accepting the gospel.

As I said, that is only one aspect of it being wrong. More later if anyone is interested.

Just my thoughts!

-- Anonymous, October 09, 1999

Sorry, I forgot to answer D's question on Acts 10. ISTM that when Christ and the apostles taught someone they took him where he was, and did not try to immediately get him out of his situation. For instance when Paul dealt with slavery he didn't tell them all to give it up but told them how to deal with their slaves and how the slaves should act toward their masters.

Yet I don't think Paul condoned slavery. The princples in scripture would have us believe one man owning another is not acceptable to Christ. ISTM that is the answer about Cornelius.

-- Anonymous, October 10, 1999

"Having gone your way, therefore, make disciples of all the nations, baptizing the people into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching the people to be observing all (as many things) as I commanded to you; and look! I am with you all the days till the conclusion of the age." (translated using the Westcott and Hort Greek Text)

Here in lies at least a two fold responsibility. 1. Evangelizing the Lost (making disciples) through the teaching of who Jesus is and through Baptism. 2. Edifing the Saints through teaching all of the commands that Jesus taught them.

The question comes in at this point. "Why can't the preacher speak to political issues?"

I suppose that I would answer it this way. "He can and should." This is the reason. We have been given the responsibility by Jesus to be salt and light in the world. This we must do. The area of politics or whatever subject you want to name is simply the opportunity. And of course we know that we are to Redeem the Time (make the most of all the opportunities that God allow and gives) because the Days are Evil. How are we to redeem the time if we do not affect politics and all else as salt and light?

Keep thinking. Dave

-- Anonymous, October 14, 1999

Hello Dave,

I can agree with you to a point. (I forgot my point...hold on) Don't you think our being the salt of the earth is in our godly living and teaching the gospel those in sin? I just can't imagine we can get into politics because we have no example (that I can fine) where those of the first century (under the teachings of Christ and the apostles) ever spent their time trying to change the government.

-- Anonymous, October 14, 1999

Nelta,

Back to the "war question" & Cornelius. Did Paul or any for that matter..ever later on say to a military man change your profession, you cannot be a soldier and be a christian?

Doesn't seem to me that the Apostles were much concerned whether one was a slave or free...only that whatever your position in life... "Be all you can be". Eph 6:5-9 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free. And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.

-- Anonymous, October 16, 1999

Me again...about the slave issue.

1 Cor 7:17-24 Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts. Each one should remain in the situation which he was in when God called him. Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you-- although if you can gain your freedom, do so. For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord's freedman; similarly, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ's slave. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. Brothers, each man, as responsible to God, should remain in the situation God called him to.

Nelta, your thoughts?

-- Anonymous, October 16, 1999

Hello D,

This verse is talking about circum. and uncircu. It also (about slavery) is not saying to be satisfied with being a slave. Again, Paul is not saying to stay in your circumstances except to NOT go again to the law and become circum. In that situation whatever you were when you obeyed the gospel don't try to change (circum.)

I must be rambling because even I feel I am.

-- Anonymous, October 16, 1999

Nelta,

You mentioned about - can't imagine getting into politics, because we have no Biblical example of it. Would it sound to simplistic to say that there is no Biblical example for most any career choice a person would make. So let us say, and whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the glory of God the Father. Now, if it is ok to combine the two concerns: 1. being salt and light...... 2. do all in the name of the Lord.......

If a Christian has the freedom to choose politics as a career, then should that person not do it as to honor God? (I know, seems a joke to use the word politics, honor, and God in the same sentence. lol)

Bye the same token, do we not bear the responsibility to our family and our neighbors to do all we can to see that all know the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ as well as the life of love that Christ has revealed to us.

Now we can take a passive role in being merely a silent example. However, I have a real difficulty finding this as the primary way in which God has imparted the truth to man. Seems to me that we find far too many examples in Scripture of men and women who were extremely bold for the faith. Speaking up for Christ whether in court, on the street, talking with polititians of the day, or with religious leaders.

Through out the old testament, the prophets condemned the *politians* of the day that their actions of injustice and sin were condemned by God. Their job was to tell the politians, the people and the nations of God's anger toward the sin of the politians and what their end would be.

I will let you think on this for now. Dave

-- Anonymous, October 17, 1999