I've been seeing a very disturbing trend in some of the posts to this web site - Central Planning. If Y2K becomes a turning point in history, as all major events are, will it be toward greater individual freedom and the prosperity that it brings, or will we slip into the dungeons of the New World Order slave masters?

Some of the suggestions I've seen on this forum include:

* Keeping the "techies" in the cities to fix things. * Sending the "non-techies" to the farms to work. * Confiscating fuel and other items for "the greater good".

This sounds like Stalin's plan to save Russia! Those who dream of ruling the world must be drooling at the prospect of the sheeple crying out for such centralized control. Let's look at just a few points on this.

Separating the Techies and the Non-techies - Just who is going to be the one saying "OK, you've worked as an engineer, you stay. Your wife worked as secretary; she gets shipped to the work farms. Oh, and your kids will be taken to a camp where they will be "educated" and where they won't be using resources needlessly." Oh yeah, that'll work just great!

Sending the Non-techies to work on farms - Obviously from someone who doesn't know anything about farming. It is not gardening on a larger scale. Do you think you can give all those former "Assistant to the Director of Human Resources" a hoe and tell them to go tend the crops? First of all, they would refuse to do that kind of manual labor, at least in the beginning. They would be demanding that "The Government" take care of them. Secondly, they have no idea what they're doing and would probably damage the roots or just plain hoe the wrong plants. And finally, where do you think they're going to get all those hoes? Or maybe you figured they'd all be driving tractors or hitch up a plow to their SUV. And what about the farmers - does anything really think that they will welcome these folks with open arms? "Here's your work crew. Put them to work. We'll be back later to confiscate what you produce." That's going to go over really well.

Confiscating supplies "for the greater good" - It's called thieft, no matter what the so-called "justification" is. It's taking from those who prepared and giving to those who decided to spend their money on a new big-screen TV or a vacation while the victims of government sanctioned robbery spent their money on preparations and didn't get the benefit of that new big-screen TV or trip to europe.

To accomplish any of the central planning schemes would mean having to invoke martial law on the most brutal and totalitarian kind. And once someone is given that kind of power, they will not give it up without being forced to do so at the point of a gun. History is soaked with the blood of those who fought to wrestle power back from tyrants.

Despite all the good intentions, any use of central planning to rebuild would plunge us into the deepest darkest hell from which it would take generations to recover - if ever. Far more people would die in the most horrible of ways than you ever thought possible.

The only way civilization will ever be rebuilt back to something as good or better than our current situation (such as it is) will be to let things run their course and allow tomorrow's leaders to emerge and build as they see fit. No, it won't be fast and it won't be easy and it won't be "fair" but life isn't fair. It never is, and many will suffer. At least, however, there will be hope for the future, whereas a central planning scheme will plunge us into the eternal darkness of slavery.

If we're talking about rebuilding, let's junk any thoughts of central planning and stick to what works - people working to improve conditions out of their own self interest and their own private motivation to help their fellow man.

-- Stephen McGehee (scm@adjutant.com), October 03, 1999

Answers

Amen

"where shall we expect the approach of danger? How shall we fortify against it? Shall we expect some translatlantic military giant to step the earth and crush us at a blow? Never! All the armies or Europe, Asiam and Africa combined, with all the treasure of the earth, could not take a drink from the Ohio, or make a track on the Blue Ridge in the trial of a thousand years, if destruction be our lot, we alone must be it's author and finisher, as a nation of free men we shall live through all time, or die by suicide." --Abraham Lincoln

-- Jeremiah (Braponspdetroit@hotmail.com), October 04, 1999.

Amen

"where shall we expect the approach of danger? How shall we fortify against it? Shall we expect some transatlantic military giant to step the earth and crush us at a blow? Never! All the armies or Europe, Asiam and Africa combined, with all the treasure of the earth, could not take a drink from the Ohio, or make a track on the Blue Ridge in the trial of a thousand years, if destruction be our lot, we alone must be it's author and finisher, as a nation of free men we shall live through all time, or die by suicide." --Abraham Lincoln

-- Jeremiah (Braponspdetroit@hotmail.com), October 04, 1999.

Stephen,

It is a shame we are in this sorry mess, our leaders have totally failed us with regard to Y2k. It is this reason we have to consider nightmare situations and what our most reasonable and pragmatic responses should be.

Who is a techie ? I would imagine people who work in power, communications, oil, sewage treatment, and water systems. Particularly line workers and their immediate supervisors in these areas.

With regard to confiscating supplies, except for gasoline I couldn't imagine it being worth the civil authorities effort, at best the number of serious preparers is no more than 1% of the population.

The real effort to me would be in taking over stores and warehouses, easy, quick, and where the real quantity of food is at.

One point about gasoline, perhaps the civil authorities will encourage people to gas up and then confiscate, hey they would get about twice as much. Rotten I know but it doubles the chances.

As far as letting things run their course, half the population could die and disease from them could take down the other half.

I suppose the question of dictatorship vs democracy boils down to morality and leadership. Could you trust your present president to give you your civil liberties back after a severe to catastrophic disaster ?

If Senator Bennett was our President and Senator Dodd our Vice-President I would say no problem, these men are Salt-Of-The-Earth Types. With president bill clinton this matter becomes questionable.

Have you noticed a good way to express the stature of a person is by capitalizing or not capitalizing their names ?

Lets see, PAUL MILNE, ED YOURDON, DR. ED YARDENI, DR. PAULA GORDON, DR SCOTT OLMSTEAD, COUNTLESS OTHERS

And for those lacking in character, honesty, foresight; flint, hoffmeister, cpr, y2k pro, countless others, and last and certainly least, president bill clinton!!!!

-- Stanley Lucas (StanleyLucas@WebTv.net), October 04, 1999.

GARY NORTH

-- Penda Zone (PendaZ@excite.com), October 04, 1999.

I think we are beginning to see how this country will rebuild Humpty Dumpty. It is right here in the threads of this forum. We The People. There are all types represented but it is becoming obvious who will be here to rebuild. I think Mr. Yourdon was wise to set this in motion so he could lurk and wait for the future remnant to speak up. With each thread I am more encouraged about America's continuance. I am reading statements that I did not think any modern American could still verbalize. I think this next year will be a hard lesson with a great many tragedies. But by those, the steadfast and strong of heart will learn that they were born not for an 'Alley McBeal' office with a view. They will learn that their country's founders were strong, hard people who had the heads and hearts to do what was necessary to prevail. They will learn what their ancestors from the colonies, from the holocaust, from the potato famine, from St.Petersburg learned; life can be survived and from that foundation can be built a better life. I hope my daughter and her generation will build-in even better prevention than the Bill of Rights. My objective is to survive long enough to drag my DGI family through the die-off and into the rebuild. I'm sure the younger generation has a few hardy souls to lead the rest. Some of the voices I hear in these threads have the strength and character to do the same. At last I see some hope. Thank you Ed Yourdon.

-- dennis (b01d10w51@mindspring.com), October 04, 1999.

Hi Stephen, I agree. I think one of the things we must keep in mind at all times is mutual respect and understanding--even if the wolves are howling at our doors. I also am disturbed to find that certain "skills," such as child rearing and child care, teaching, etc. don't seem to come up in many of the us vs. them, who is valuable, who is not scenarios. Do we want to remain civilized in the new year, and take a stand for basic human values that are uplifting--honesty, love, freedom, respect, etc. even if things get tough. That said, I would still resist if someone wanted to separate me from my family for any reason.

-- Amy Marsh (canaryclub@aol.com), October 04, 1999.

Unfortunately I fear that we would see Joseph Stalin as easily, if not more so, than a George Washington if things should get terribly bad. The American public is easily pandered to.

Look back just seven short decades ago to FDR and his multitude of social programs for a clue. If people are in a world of hurt they will be more than willing to trade off *some* freedom for a hot meal. Consider also the unrest in early 1930's Germany, a desperate populace seduced by demagogue who promised a "Thousand Year Reich" to those who towed the party line.

In times of high stress people will perhaps not care about the long term consequences of governmental actions, more important at the moment is to fill the belly and to find a job. How many would have the courage to vote for a candidate espousing a long-term free market solution, which may take some time, over a candidate who promises that the government can devise an immediate solution to your woes.

This assumes, of course, that government as we know it would survive. If the troubles should last more than a few years GN may prove correct, in that we would see widespread revolution.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), October 04, 1999.

As inefficient as democracy and capitalism are...the alternative of central planning is a lot worse. We need to keep reminding the public of this fact! (They forget quickly.)

-- Mad Monk (madmonk@hawaiian.net), October 04, 1999.

Stephen -

Stalin was a charasmatic leader, too. The orders are already in place for the aftermath. Pray they never get used. You won't recognize this country if they do.

We, as a people, have been so conditioned to expect the gov't to dig us out of trouble that, except for a few of us, no one will balk at those orders until they are on the receiving end of a military rifle being taken from their homes. I enjoy my Social Security check every month. I admit that freely. I worked hard for it over the years. But I'm at least honest enough to feel a bit guilty about receiving it, too.

However, I have open eyes to this country's history of political/civil power. It's not pretty. Even the official version taught in schools. If anybody thinks this gov't will allow the people to run amuck forever in the case of a really bad outcome, he/she should think again. Big Brother will do whatever it takes to keep power right where it is. Not good for us. Good for them.

Regards, Claudette

-- Claudette Young (laclaud@cybertrails.com), October 06, 1999.

You have hit on the key to the whole issue. Politics and government is all about control. That's not necessarily bad in and of itself. Living in an orderly society always entails a certain amount of control - hopefully self-control, but not enough people have self- control and so we are stuck with government. The problem arises when we the sheeple willingly hand over control to the government and/or don't resist when they take control. I'm afraid you're right - most sheeple will just roll over and beg for their handout from government. They will welcome "the new Stalin".

Freedom has always been won by a small minority of dedicated individuals. We need not expect any kind of general uprising against moves toward totalitarianism. It won't happen. The best we can hope for is that the sheeple won't get in the way.

-- Stephen McGehee (scm@adjutant.com), October 06, 1999.