In another thread, I posed this question and seriously want to explore it. Can God use those who are in error theologically to accomplish His purpose?

I know an individual who is a very strong Christian and says to this day that the debunked Satanic High Priest and Christian comedian Mike Warnkee is the instrument God used to get through to him.

What do you think?

-- Anonymous, October 02, 1999

Answers

Michael....

A number of times in the O.T. the prophets refer to pagan nations such as Assyria or Babylon as "the instruments of God's judgment."

In the book of Acts, the persecution of Saul became the means of "scattering the church abroad" to spread the Gospel.

Joseph summed it up best in Genesis 50 when he told his brothers...."you meant it for evil....but God meant it for good."

It appears Scripturally, that regardless of the intentions of men, good or evil, God's will is accomplished.

-- Anonymous, October 03, 1999

Darrell.....

I beg to differ.

A Baptist is not an "erring brother"......he (or she) is a person who has not been obedient to the Gospel.

Because they have not been baptized "into Christ" as the Bible teaches....they have never "put on Christ" (as Paul states in Galatians)....therefore....they are not my brother in the first place.

A Baptist preacher......is a prospect. And until the Christian Church again approaches them as prospects....and not brothers....we will continue to flounder and dwindle. We have not unique plea anymore....we are like the Israelites of old who have the "be-like 'ums."

I've seen it all now.....one of the larger Christian Churches in my area is featuring a four night revival....featuring Wayne Smith, Bob Russell, et. al.

Sunday night....probably the biggest night of the week....they are having none other than a Baptist Preacher to "preach the Word."

What am I to learn from him if he cannot even get obedience to the gospel down??

I guess I could learn....what not to do!!

-- Anonymous, October 03, 1999

Darrell.....

As per your discussion about the "average" person in the Baptist church coming out with the same view of baptism that we do (regardless of what the official ecclesiastical position is).....you know that I agree with you on that.

I believe in your post, though, you were talking about a minister having "fellowship" with a Baptist and Pentecostal preacher.

As per your qualifying your distiction between what you personally do and what you would allow in your pulpit.....I think we are in "basic" agreement there.

However.....this handholding that we often do....is..in my opinion....why we end up in bed with them (i.e., having them in our pulpits).

And by the way.....you ever noticed how the Baptists don't invite us into their pulpits??? Hmmmmmmm.......

.......sounds like the old Redstone Association again....and the Campbell's being asked to take their "Restoration" ideas and go home.

-- Anonymous, October 03, 1999

Interesting note about both Priscilla and Acquilla and the "disciples of John" in Acts 19.......

They both followed the way of the Lord more perfectly after ONLY ONE meeting.

In the arena of PK.....they have consistenly rejected the advances of Christian Church men to donate free baptistries and have even gone so far as to remove the word "baptism" as much as possible from their literature.

It is time we realize that PK is an organization with an agenda and it IS NOT the pursuit of truth.....otherwise....as Priscilla and Acquilla....and the "disciples of John"......they would have accepted the way of the Lord more perfectly.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 1999

From a Biblical point of view, God often used people who were not only theologically askew, but who were pagans and worse, to accomplish his will. From the kings of Egypt, Persia, Babylon, and others, to the prostitute Rahab, God has on many occasions done what he set out to do, not only with people of other (or even without) religious mindsets, and even when his own people where against him!

This doesn't lessen the need to continue preaching the truth - - - in fact, it strengthens the call and enforces the message that we have a wise and mighty God who calls ALL men to Him.

-- Anonymous, October 03, 1999

If you will, please allow me to give a short (I hope) example of how some folks respond to this.

I was preaching at a congregation in South Carolina. We had an annual ministers retreat. During a discussion time, the question was asked, "What do you do, as a vocational minister, to recharge your batteries so-to-speak?" We all shared various methods we used to stay fresh.

One minister noted that he met weekly with the other two ministers from his town. Now, you must understand, there are only 30 active Christian Church / Church of Christ congregations in South Carolina. This minister lived and served in an area where the nearest preacher of Restoration background was over an hour and a half away. So, he met with a Baptist and an Assembly of God minister once each week for prayer, Bible study, etc.

Two of the other preachers at the retreat went ballestic. They couldn't understand how any preacher "of the faith" as they put it, could associate with erring preachers ... especially for prayer and Bible study. Quite a discussion ensued.

When we returned to the cabin we were sleeping in for the evening, the two mentioned above asked me what I thought. I told them I couldn't understand how they could believe we had a corner on all truth. Their point was that there was nothing of value to learn from denominational preachers, and it would have been better for our brother who was so far out in the sticks to have no fellowship, rather than prayer and Bible study with denom preachers.

So ... can you learn truth from "erring" brothers? I think so. We don't have the corner on the truth. In fact, unless we consider ourselves to be perfect (and I'm sure no one reading this would do that) then we might even be "erring" on some things, and could benefit from any learning experience.

Darrell H Combs

-- Anonymous, October 03, 1999

Thanks for the responses thus far. Darrell, don't you find it interesting that such a compartmentalization can be used in the different theological issues discussed. In relevance to this discussion, I see the thread of PK for sure. If it is true that PK can indeed be used by God to accomplish His purpose even when it is either full of error or somewhat in error then I certainly have been able to see God's accomplishments through such an organization thus far, even to the absolute illogical views of others on this.

In Acts 19, Paul finds those who are in utter error over their views on baptism and the Holy Spirit - quite what would be two of the central problems many have with PK. And yet the text clearly says that Paul identifies these as "disciples", not merely "brother" but an actual true blue disciple. This is an interesting text to me. Now of course there will be the Saffolds who think that this clearly gives the Biblical precedence for charging the stage at a PK conference and taking hostage all attendees to teach them all we know on the issue of baptism. But I don't think that is necessarily a plausible response.

I think that continual involvement in the leadership and consistent teaching and preaching of the truth will only bring change about theologically and doctrinally. Nonetheless, thanks all of you for helping to illustrate what I already knew.

God's purpose will be accomplished. No matter what the instrument amy be; either jackass, or pharaoh, or promise keepers - God's purpose will be accomplished.

-- Anonymous, October 03, 1999

Danny -- might have been a bad choice of words ... I was thinking believer, so change the last post to "erring believer." Even so, I can't begin to tell you the number of folks from out of the Baptist denom who have come to place membership with a congregation I was involved with who HAD been immersed under the same understanding that we are. It amazes me how many times this is so. The preacher and leaders of the Baptist congregation might state one reason for their dunking people, but many times the people know the biblical reason. So ... that Baptist believer just might have been a Christian. Only time and judgment day will tell.

"Sunday night....probably the biggest night of the week....they are having none other than a Baptist Preacher to 'preach the Word.' What am I to learn from him if he cannot even get obedience to the gospel down?? "

I would certainly have a problem with this. While I feel "safe" in sitting around a table with those who err with regards to salvation (I know what I believe and will not bend), I would have a problem allowing that person into the pulpit. Double standard? Maybe so, but I don't think so. When we allow someone in the pulpit, then yes, we are giving tacit approval to whatever they preach. Of course, I have always said the same thing about the songs we sing (humns, contemporary, or otherwise) and the songs allowed for "special music." How many of our congregations have had someone sing "Thank You" by Ray Boltz? Talk about a poor rendering of the salvation plan! Yet I believe I have heard that song sung in almost every congregation I have served in.

Would you learn something new and truthful from that Baptist preacher? Maybe yes, maybe no. I have, and pray that I can continue to do so when the opportunity arrises. Even so, I don't believe I could go for having him preaching from a pulpit I served.

Darrell Combs

-- Anonymous, October 03, 1999

Gentlemen,

No matter what we think we can learn from them, what does the Bible say about false teachers? I have not read a verse that says if we think we are mature enough to discern...then go ahead and fellowship. God has specific instructions when it comes to this matter. Does 2 John mean what it says or not? The only area I can see from scriptures in association is evangelism.

Why do you think the warnings against false teachers are so harsh?

-- Anonymous, October 03, 1999

Dear Muse,

I am a little unsure but are not you of the female persuasion? Is it in err for a woman to teach a man? Just kidding.

Your point is one impossible to bring logical consistency to. As I stated earlier, Paul identified those who were in error over baptism and the Holy Spirit as "disciples" and not merely brothers. You say that this is something applicable only in the realm of evangelism. I don't think so. I think that it is applicable when we read books by those who err, it is applicable when we sing hymns by those who err. It is even applicable when we hear a never-thinks-he-can-err- restorationist preacher err. We can learn from those who err and to think that we can not means that the actual learning field has been severely hindered. You see, you err, I err, in fact, I haven't met a soul alive who has not been wrong about a great many things doctrinally at certain points.

I used to believe some goofy things about what it meant to be saved when I was in high school. I learned the way of God more accurately and now am not so goofy (at least about that).

What if Priscilla and Aquilla had simply felt of Appolos the way you and many others do of PK? Or how about if Paul had with those of another baptism? It would quite drastically change the composition of the church's development. Instead of taking 2,000 years to get as goofy as we can be in the restoration movement today, it would have only taken just a few years. That would have saved Satan an awful lot of time but not necessarily helped the church out so much.

By the way, the Priscilla and Aquilla account in Acts 18 is not simply one allocated to the realm of baptism. Priscilla and Aquilla's association with Appolos was one of teaching and nurture. You see Appolos was quite knowledgeable in the Scriptures but he got baptism all goofed up (kinda like the Baptists, well and just about all the others). I mean we are now ushering this man's problem theologically into the realm of soteriology and that is very serious business my friend. But despite his "erring" ways, or his "perversion of the gospel of Christ" or his being a "false teacher" because he did not teach full obedience to the gospel, Priscilla and Aquilla still met with him and I think one can easily infer from the account, established quite a warm friendship with him. Hmmmm, this isn't the way many in our churches would have done it but that is ok. Our churches are full of erring brothers and disciples! But God still loves us and uses us in spite of our lowly state.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 1999

For the life of me I can't understand where many preachers and congregations are going. I came from a Catholic Mafia background and I have no desire to go back to Egypt. Why then do so many people want to sit at the feet of Pharaoh. Some even desire to go back to the denomination of their choice. Men, as I shake my head, the only thing I can do is use the Word of God to dispel our hand holding with denominationalism and for that matter Promise Keepers. Now, if you want to, you can spin the Scriptures in your own way and change what the word says. Only I pray that you dont. I pray that you just listen to the word of God, then do it.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 1999

Michael,

Yes, I am female...funny for you to say, "Is it in err for a woman to teach a man?" and then use Priscilla as an example. I know you were joking, and that is a whole different thread.

Priscilla and Aquila taught the way of God more accurately, just as Paul did. Now correct me if I am wrong - does it say these men were disciples of Christ? If they were, how is it they had not heard of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1)? Weren't these disciples of John, not having heard that there was a Holy Spirit?

I can assure you that I have a great depth of feeling for PK's. I believe that I have an understanding of them and their teachings...having been brought up in the same teachings. Unfortunately, those teachings are not accurate...and when a teaching does not agree with what God says about salvation...it is a life and death matter! There is an urgency in me to share in love, the truth.

I can only tell you from my own experience that I would not be grateful to anyone (knowing the truth) for not explaining the way of God more accurately to me. It would have meant my eternal death.

-- Anonymous, October 04, 1999

Brother Demastus:

I am responding to your post that was addressed to Brother Combs. I do not normally do this but inasmuch as you have chosen to deliberately misrepresent me in that post I feel justified in responding.

You begin by telling us that you see the PK thread in this discussion and I quote your words as follows:

In relevance to this discussion, I see the thread of PK for sure.

Now there is no doubt that you are likely to see the PK thread almost anywhere but it is interesting that you have seen the Pk thread in a room that is discussing whether God uses His enemies to accomplish His purpose. After all you started this thread and it is at least suspected that you intended for it to have relevance to the PK discussion. You did not want to continue the round with me in the PK thread where it was already relevant. I will quote your words to me in that thread: Mr. Saffold, I have absolutely no desire to continue in the round of what seems to be for me the development of an apologetic for Promise Keepers.

Now you had no desire to continue the round and to that I do not object. But then you ran away and started a new tread and begin a round of discussion and a development of an apologetic for promise keepers else where under the guise of asking a simple question about whether God uses those who are in error to accomplish His purpose. What you were really getting to was does God use those who are false teachers such as the promise keepers to accomplish His purpose? I do not even object to your taking your arguments to another place for not everyone wants to continue their discussions with me for a variety of good reasons. But then you try to indirectly respond to me in that new tread. You did this without telling me that you were doing such and it seems that you just hoped that I would not see it and respond. If this was your intent, such a tactic is extremely dishonest to say the least. If I had not found your new thread you could have succeeded in making it look as if I did not have any response to your fallacious arguments. Run as much as you like, brother Demastus, for now that I know that you could be using such tactics I will watch for you when you run away without hearing or considering my arguments in response to you. And I will follow you to watch how you attack the truth in another place.

The only way that you could see the PK thread in this room is by recognizing the fact that the PKs are Gods enemies. The fact that God sometimes uses His enemies to accomplish His purpose does not prove your contention that Christians, who are surely friends of God, should join with His enemies to do evil in order to help them accomplish His purpose. Our Brother James speaks clearly on this matter.  Whosoever therefore would be a friend of the world maketh himself an enemy of God. James 4: 4. Now there are only two places we can be. We are either in the kingdom of God or we are in the kingdom of darkness. Paul said that the Colossians had been translated out of the power of darkness, and into the kingdom of the Son of His love. Christ told us,  except a man be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God John 3:3-5. Therefore all those who have not been born of water and the Spirit are not in the kingdom of God. They are therefore yet in the kingdom of darkness of this world. They are still enemies of God. The "promise keepers" who have not been obedient to the gospel and born of water and the Spirit are not in the kingdom of God. Therefore they are in the only other place one can be if he or she is not in the kingdom of God. They are in the kingdom of darkness. God may use evil men but He does not justify them in their evil nor does He allow His children to partake of their evil deeds 2 John 9-11. In order for you to use the fact that God has at times used evil men to accomplish His purpose to prove your argument that we should therefore support promise keepers you must not only show that God uses evil men to accomplish His purpose. But you must also show that He expects His faithful servants to JOIN WITH THEM and support them in doing evil in order to accomplish His purpose. This, brother, is not taught in the word of God! This is however what you have been doing and are eager to do again and desire so much for us to join with you in doing. The faithful in Christ our Lord will not follow you in this egregious error.

Josephs brothers intended their actions for evil but God intended it for good. Did that justify them in casting their brother into a pit and selling him into slavery? If you were one of his brothers and did not agree with the evil the others intended would you have helped them do it because God sometimes uses evil to accomplish his purpose? The persecution that came about over Steven ultimately worked to further Gods purpose in spreading the gospel. If you had been a Christian at that time would you have been justified in pretending to be a Jew and joining with them in the persecution of your brethren because you understood that God sometimes uses evil men to accomplish His purpose? God used Pharaoh to get Glory for His name among the pagan Egyptians. But what would have happened if the Israelites had joined with Pharaoh and ignored the command to sprinkle blood on the door- post and lintels and assisted Pharaoh in his evil because they knew, what you say you already knew, that God sometimes uses evil men to accomplish His purpose? I can tell you what would have happened. The first-born child of those who assisted Pharaoh and ignored Gods commands would have died. If you will notice, no one could know that God was using Pharaoh in this way. No one knew that God was using those evil men who killed Stephen to accomplish His purpose. God surely accomplished His purpose through the evil men who crucified our savior. (Acts 2:36). If you had been one of the Lords disciples at that time would you have assisted those who crucified Christ our Lord because you knew that God uses evil men to accomplish His purpose? If you had helped them for that reason would you not have been held to account for your involvement in their evil deeds? Yet you know, without any doubt or proof whatsoever that God is using the false teachers among the PKs to accomplish His purpose and you think that God wants you as a Christian to help them teach their lies so that God can accomplish His purpose through them.

Now your following words do not make much sense but I will quote them and respond.

If it is true that PK can indeed be used by God to accomplish His purpose even when it is either full of error or somewhat in error then I certainly have been able to see God's accomplishments through such an organization thus far, even to the absolute illogical views of others on this.

Now with this statement you at least admit that the PKs are in error but you cannot decide whether they are full of error or somewhat in error. Then you make it quite clear that it does not matter to you if they are full of error. What is confusing about your words in this place is that you use an if...Then form of argument in a way that does not follow logically. You say, IF it is true that PK can be used by God to accomplish his purpose THEN I have certainly been able to see Gods accomplishments through such an organization. Do you mean to say that IF God can use PK that we can THEN conclude from that supposition that you certainly have been able to see His accomplishments through them? If this is what you are saying it is extremely illogical. Even if God can and does use PK to accomplish His purpose it would not logically follow that YOU have certainly been able to see Him accomplish His purpose through them. Many have not been able to see it and if it were true they still have not been able to see Him accomplish His purpose through them. Yet, without any evidence whatsoever you want us to believe that YOU have seen God accomplish his purpose through the PKs and we are to believe you because God sometimes uses His enemies to accomplish His purpose. Does the fact that He sometimes uses His enemies prove that he always uses them? And does it prove that He is using the PKs as you claim. Surely anyone that understands logic can see that you are being extremely illogical. With this display of your logical acumen we are unable to trust your judgement that the views of others against your position are, as you have said,  absolutely illogical. It is interesting that you have not made any effort to prove your assertion that the views of those who oppose Pk are absolutely illogical. You merely assert it and it seems that you expect us to just believe it because YOU say that it is true.

Christ came to seek and save the Lost. Luke 19:10. This is Gods purpose in Christ and you certainly have not seen Him accomplish this purpose through the PK falsely teaching that one can be saved without being obedient to the gospel of Christ. ( 2 Thess 1:9-11). Even if it could be proven that God intends to accomplish His purpose through the evil false doctrine of the PK organization it would not logically follow that you and I as Christians must support their false doctrine because God is using their deceptive organization to accomplish His purpose. In fact God has commanded you and us through the apostle John to NOT BID THOSE WHO BRING NOT THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST GODSPEED. He even says that if we do so we will be partakers of their evil deeds. 2 John 9-11. So we have God's word that we are not to support those who teach a doctrine other than the doctrine of Christ. This you are eager to do by supporting PK and want the rest of us to follow you in that disobedience to Christ.

Paul talks about the purpose of God and tells us not only what Gods purpose is but also the organization He has chosen through which He will accomplish that purpose.  Whereby, when ye read, ye can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ; which in other generations was not made known unto the sons of men, as it hath been revealed unto His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; to wit, that the gentiles are fellow-heirs, and fellow-members of the body, and fellow-partakers of the PROMISE IN CHRIST JESUS THROUGH THE GOSPEL, whereof I was made a minister according to the gift of that grace of God, which was given to me according to the working of His power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, was this grace given, to preach unto the gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; and to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery which for ages hath been hid in God who created all things; to the INTENT that now unto the principalities and the powers in heavenly places might be made known THROUGH THE CHURCH the manifold wisdom of God, according to the ETERNAL PURPOSE which he PURPOSED IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD. Ephesians 3:4-11. Gods purpose is that the gentiles and Jews are to be fellow-heirs, fellow-members of the body, and fellow-partakers of the Promise in Christ. These promises come to the Jews and gentiles in the same way.

They come through the gospel. So Paul tell us,  in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, making known unto us the MYSTERY OF HIS WILL, according to His good pleasure which he PURPOSED IN HIM unto a dispensation of a fullness of the times, to SUM UP ALL THINGS IN CHRIST, the things in the heavens, and things on the earth; in Him, I say, in who also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to THE PURPOSE of Him who WORKETH ALL THINGS after the counsel of His will; to the end that we should be unto the praise of His glory, WE WHO HAD BEFORE HOPED IN CHRIST: in whom YE ALSO, HAVING HEARD THE WORD OF THE TRUTH, THE GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION,-in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of Gods own possession, unto the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:7-14. Thus those who are obedient to the gospel are in Christ where these promises can be enjoyed. Therefore it was and is Gods purpose that we all should be fellow-heirs, fellow- members of the body, and fellow-partakers of the promises in Christ. It is also His intent to make this purpose known THROUGH THE CHURCH. (Eph 3: 4-11) The Church being those who are being saved (Acts 2:47) through their obedience to the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; 2 Thess 1:7-11; Romans 6:3-6) those who have been  born of water and the Spirit (John 3:3-5; Titus 3:3-5; Eph. 5:26; Heb. 10:22; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 1 Peter 3:21; Acts 22:16;). Now since Gods purpose is for all to share the promises in Christ which is salvation and we get into Christ through immersion into Him. (Gal. 3:26,27). And it is Gods intent to make known this manifold wisdom THROUGH THE CHURCH (Eph. 3:4-11). Then it is clear that God has no intent to accomplish His purpose, as defined for us in the scriptures, through any organization of false teachers such as the promise keepers. You cannot say that they are not false teachers because your very argument in this thread rest on their being false teachers and that God sometimes accomplishes his purpose through them.

In this particular case He has told us in His word that it is His INTENT to accomplish HIS purpose to bring Jews and gentiles to be fellow-heirs, fellow-members of His body, and fellow-partakers of His promises in Christ. And that he intends to do this through His manifold wisdom of preaching of the gospel (1 Cor. 1:18) by the CHURCH. For this reason we KNOW that you have not seen God do the very opposite of what he said he would do by accomplishing his purpose, which is the very opposite of the PK agenda of teaching salvation apart from the gospel, through the PK organization. If you have seen God accomplishing His purpose, as described in the scriptures, through the PK organization, you have not offered any proof of having seen it. The truth is that those who teach others that they can be saved without obeying the blessed gospel of Christ are working against the purpose of God. (Luke 7:29,30; 2 Thess. 1:7- 11) The PK organization does teach such and all you have to do is go to your own website for proof. Just click on the link that you have provided for all of the Christians, weak and strong, of your congregation to find examples of people who believe that they have been saved from their sins without having even heard the gospel of Christ.

Now the rest of what you say will take some time and space to unravel but I will be brief for now and will come back later with more to say in response to it.

First you tell us that you have found some people in Acts the 19th chapter who are in utter error over their views on baptism and the Holy Spirit. Now we would like to see which passage justifies your conclusion that these men were in utter error. Let me quote your words:

In Acts 19, Paul finds those who are in utter error over their views on baptism and the Holy Spirit - quite what would be two of the central problems many have with PK. And yet the text clearly says that Paul identifies these as "disciples", not merely "brother" but an actual true blue disciple. This is an interesting text to me.

I will come back in another post to discuss Acts 18 and 19 and will show how egregiously ignorant you are about the baptism of John. Suffice it to say now that your comparison of the situation of Christians supporting the PK whom you think are exactly parallel to the disciples that Paul met in Ephesus who knew only the baptism of John is a poor comparison. In fact it completely ignores the facts concerning the baptism of John. This I will explain further in another post.

Now I want to discuss the portion of your post wherein you deliberately invoke my name. And where you ascribe to me an argument that I have never made. In fact it was you who had said it. I will quote your words as follows:

Now of course there will be the Saffolds who think that this clearly gives the Biblical precedence for charging the stage at a PK conference and taking hostage all attendees to teach them all we know on the issue of baptism. But I don't think that is necessarily a plausible response.

Now here I do not know who the Saffolds are to which you refer. I know that my name is Saffold and as far as I can tell I am the only one with that name writing in this forum. I can only assume that you are referring to all that oppose PK as the Saffolds. I do not think that my brethren, who are striving to be Christians only, would appreciate being denominated as Saffolds. Nor do I think they would necessarily agree with all of my arguments and thus would surely not want to be identified with them as you have so unjustly done with this comment.

Now, in reference to your claim that the Saffolds will find in Acts the 19th chapter a Biblical precedent for charging the stage at PK conference and taking hostage all attendees to teach them all we know on the issue of baptism. I will simply say that I do not find such a precedent in this passage. And I have never said any such thing. So you were obviously wrong in your claim that I would argue in this way. I do however find a good example of a Christian teaching the truth to those who needed to hear it and that such is to be done whenever error is found. This is the thing that you absolutely refuse to admit should be done by a Christian who attends a PK meeting.

Then you say that you do not think that this is a plausible response. But it was you who suggested that you would have to take a gun to the Pk meeting and jump the stage in order to teach the gospel to them. It was not an idea that I originated. It was from your mind and your Pen but now you want ME to take responsibility for YOUR ideas. Merely quoting what you said in the PK thread on this matter will show who it is that thinks that charging the stage is the only way to get the gospel taught to PKs. I now quote your words as follows:

Dear Prayerful Brother Saffold, Thank you for your seemingly quite sincere concern to be in prayer for me. After reconsideration, I see that my best options for the upcoming PK event is to take a gun, somehow jump the stage and begin to impart all my wisdom to 12,000 men who I hope stay in their seats. However, if I happen to fail in my endeavor to fulfill the Scriptural mandate of the proper way to attend a PK event as manifested in your words, please forgive me. All jest aside, I will attend this event just as I have all the other I have attended. And I can already forecast that I will learn things that I did not know - even from those who err doctrinally. But I covet your prayers nonetheless. Thanks but your sanctimonious arguments have fallen on deaf ears. Still can't wait for the event and all this hype over it just makes me anticipate it all the more. -- Michael W. Demastus (demastus@netzero.net), October 02, 1999.

Now I hope that every one reading this post can see that it was you that suggested jumping the stage.

Your words were,  After reconsideration, I see that my best options for the upcoming PK event is to take a gun, somehow jump the stage and begin to impart all my wisdom to 12,000 men who I hope stay in their seats.

Now it is only fair to say that you said this in jest. But we can see that what you SAID IN JEST you ASCRIBE to me in all seriousness.

Now I will quote a portion of my response to you so that all can see that you are the one who considered, in jest, that your best option for the up coming PK meeting was to take a gun and jump the stage. And that I opposed your suggestion and complained that I could not understand the purpose or intent of your jest can be clearly established by quoting my response to you. Now we can see that you intended to make it appear that I had seriously suggested such an idea and would use Acts the 19th chapter as a proof text. Here is a portion of my response to you concerning this matter in the PK thread:

I can tell that you were joking about taking a gun with you to the PK meeting but I cannot know the purpose behind such jesting. It seems that you mean to convey to us that you would need to take a gun, somehow jump the stage in order to have the opportunity to speak to the people at the PK meeting. What does this tell us? Does it not make it clear that you are welcome at the PK meetings so long as you sit there in the audience and keep your mouth shut? If you want to correct any erroneous or false teaching that they may be imparting you will have to take a gun and force them to hear you? Does this mean that it is impossible for you to preach the blessed gospel of our Lord to them? You can fellowship them in their false teaching but they will not fellowship you if you preach the pure gospel of Christ? I am sure that you could try to preach the truth to those that you meet while you are there even though you may not be allowed to jump the stage. But if they learn that you are teaching the gospel of Christ and calling upon the men there to repent and be immersed in the name of Jesus Christ you may be told not to do it. If many of them want to hear the truth you may find that you will meet with much resistance. But you still plan to attend knowing full well that you cannot teach them the truth. And that you must silently listen, with your lips sealed, to the false teaching of the faith only doctrine that will not bring these men into Christ and they will leave the PK meeting just as lost as they were when they arrived. You will have given Godspeed to these false teachers and ignored the teaching of our Brother, the apostle John, in 2 John 9- 11. But this does not matter to you; you are going regardless what the word of God says. I have never said that a Christian cannot attend but I have shown from the word of God that Christians are commanded to preach the gospel of Christ wherever they go. (Mark 16:16; Matthew 28:19,20). But, according to your words, you have no intent to teach them the gospel of Christ that they might be saved from their sins. (1 Cor. 15:1-4) And you intend to leave them in their lost state (2 Thess. 1:9-11) knowing that they need the forgiveness that comes from the blood of Christ in obedience to the gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-4, 2 Thess. 1:9-11, Romans 6:3-6). Yet you consider this silence and unwillingness to teach the gospel of Christ to those whom you know cannot be saved without it to be acceptable to the Lord? Jesus verily said,  why call ye me Lord, Lord and do not the things which I say? Luke 6:46.

Then you pretend to be interested in consistent teaching of the truth which is exactly what I have been advocating that we do at the PK meetings, if we attend them, but you insist that you would have to jump the stage with a gun to do it. Here are your words:

I think that continual involvement in the leadership and consistent teaching and preaching of the truth will only bring change about theologically and doctrinally.

If you really believe this then what could possibly be your objection to teaching the truth and preaching the gospel of Christ to the PKs? Obviously you either do not believe what you have said here or you lack the courage to stand for the truth at the PK meetings. It seems that you believe that Pk have no need of doctrinal or theological change. You cannot even decide whether they are full of error or somewhat in error. Then you thank those writing in this post for illustrating what you, in your vast wisdom, already knew. Why would anyone ask questions just to find the answers that he already knew? Could it be that you just need confirmation from other sources? Here are your words:

Nonetheless, thanks all of you for helping to illustrate what I already knew.

Now those who wrote in answer to your question were not thinking about your position on promise keepers. They were simply answering the question with specific examples of how God used His enemies to accomplish His purpose. Their answers do not illustrate what you CLAIM to know. For just because God SOMETIMES uses evil men to accomplish His purpose does not imply that He expects His children to join in with those evil men to support them in their evil. This is what you advocate by claiming that even though the PK is either full of error or somewhat in error God is using them to accomplish His purpose. And you tell us Christians should ignore the warnings of the apostle John (2 John 9-11) and join with them in their error because God is accomplishing His purpose through them.

Then you tell us that Gods purpose will be accomplished.

God's purpose will be accomplished. No matter what the instrument amy be; either jackass, or pharaoh, or promise keepers - God's purpose will be accomplished.

We agree that Gods purpose will be accomplished. We do no agree that it does not matter what the instrument may be. It verily does matter. The instrument that God has chosen is the one that will accomplish His purpose. We have only one way of knowing which instrument God has chosen to accomplish His purpose today. That is through what he tells us in His word. According to His word He has chosen the Church to accomplish His purpose as I have shown above (Eph. 3:4-11; Eph. 1:7-14) and there is no evidence that He has chosen any body of false teachers to accomplish His eternal purpose in Christ. This excludes the PK as Gods chosen instrument. Therefore your argument that because God has at times used evil men to accomplish His purpose that he is therefore using those in error among the PKs to do it today is not reasonable. It is as reasonable as one who would argue that he is supporting all jackasses diligently because he has seen that because God has, on at least one occasion, accomplished His purpose through a jackass he is therefore still doing it today. And then, because of this belief, he calls upon his fellow Christians to come to His jackass convention and sit silently and learn from them.

Brother, I do pray that you will understand the importance of the blessed gospel of Christ our Lord and will care enough for the lost among the PKs to teach them the truth and urge them to repent and be baptized. You have no wisdom of your own to impart to them but you can teach them the Gospel. This I pray that you will do.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 07, 1999

Hey Saffold,

I got an extra ticket available to the PK conference if you want to go. Thanks for your brevity.

-- Anonymous, October 07, 1999

Brother Demastus:

I would be happy to go and show you how to preach the gospel to those those who are at the PK meeting. In fact that would be a great idea and then you could see the results. I will go but you must agree to stand up for the truth of the gospel right along side of me and not fellowship these false teachers in their error. If you have the courage then lets DO IT! Contact me via e-mail so that we can arrange it.

In fact, what would be a better idea would be fore us to gather a large group of those who are opposed to promise keepers as I am and go there for the purpose of teaching the gospel for the entire time we are there. We could invite these men out to eat dinner or to meet us at the motel or some other place so that we can tell them the blessed gospel of Christ and teach them that they must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (John 3:16) Repent of their sins( Acts 3:19) Confess that Christ is the son of God (Matt. 16;16; Romans 10;10) and be immersed into Christ for the remission of sins and they will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. ( Acts 2:38; Mark 16:16; John 3:3-5; Titus 3:3-5; Eph. 5:26; Heb. 10:22; 1 Peter 3:21; Gal. 3:26,27; Acts 22:16). Anyone else interseted in going to PK meets with the purpose and intent to CONVERT men to Christ as I have been arguing instead of attending with the purpose of FELLOWSHIPING those who are not in Christ and are lost as brother Demastus has been advocating please contact me via e-mail and we can plan to make it an ANNUAL event. I am serious.

Brother Demastus, I predict that you will not join us in this but I hope that you will because if you do you will see that God is able to use us to bring others to him if we are willing to stand for the truth and preach the gospel through which he has chosen to save the world. (1 Cor. 1:18). So what do you say brother Demastus? Would you be willing to join us in and effort to CONVERT those that you have for so many other meeting merely fellowshiped without making any effort to convert them?

So there you go brother Demastus. We wait to see if you are willing to do this kind of work at the PK meetings. This is exactly what I have been suggesting all along. Are we to gather from your invitation that you finally agree with this scriptual position or were you just "jestin" again?

By the way, you have not even attenpted to answer the arguments in my last post. I just want you to know that you have completely ignored them. Maybe you just do not have the time right now. I can certianly understand that.

You thank me for my brevity. Are you blind enough to think that my last post was brief? None of my post are brief because it takes more time and effort to give prove of what one says than to merely assert something without proof as you so often do. I know that you do not appreciate the length of my post, but I told you that I am not a talented writer. I am doing the best that I can with what talents I have to help support the teaching of the truth. It is truly a "labor of Love". You can be assured that it is more tiring to write my post than it is to read them. Whether they are of any value is not for me to decide. I present them only because I care for the cause of Christ our Lord. I care very much about His will and His commands and His eternal purpose that He has determine to accomplish through the Church (Eph.3:4-11; Eph. 1:7-14) and not through the false teachers at promise keepers.

So let me know what you think of the plan to take a large group of Christians to the PK meetings to CONVERT them to Christ our Lord.

To everyone else out there, If brother Demastus does not want to work for the conversion of those in the PK meetings, contact me and we will do it without him. In fact, if he fellowships the false teachers sufficiently we may have to do it inspite of him or in opposition to him.

I pray that God will help us to accoplish His purpose and His intent to bring those who are lost among the PK's to Christ our Lord.

So contact me so that we can organize ourselves, plan our work and work our plan. Thank you brother Demastus for your excellent suggestion. I think that you are begining to catch on.

You brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 07, 1999

I would go brother Lee, but I don't think I would be let past the front gates. I hope all you gentlemen take up this challenge.

Now Michael...I am eagerly waiting for your response to Brother Lee. Was your invitation serious??

-- Anonymous, October 08, 1999

Madam Muse...your probably right. You wouldn't get past the front gates. And, unfortunately I was jesting Mr. Saffold who will respond with 78 pages worth of cut and paste from this but that is ok. I just don't take his argumentation style seriously and I try to light things up with a little fun. I'll keep trying because I know that he will respond to future posts of mine (being that I am in alliance with Satan and false doctrine and all).

BUT, I am sure I could work out a ticket for you to go with my wife to Heritage Keepers if you like! :>)

-- Anonymous, October 08, 1999

Michael, It seems that where ever we go if you have a slightly differnt opinion- then you are slammed for that opinion. We are allowed freedom of thought... God never wanted us to be robots.

Is a PK an enemy of God? In my eyes they are not. Most of the people against PK cannot prove with real documentation their point that the PK organization is against Baptism. Whether if an individual has not accepted the Lord through Faith, Repentance and Baptism- that is an individual matter. The organization as a whole does teach Baptism. In fact it is one of the seven promises. Further more the men (and women go too) who attend, are encouraged to be baptized after the call to recieve Christ. I personally witnessed this- did they follow through- that is up to the individual and his church.

Many of the speakers- I would have no trouble in fellowshipping with. Because believe it or not many do believe that Baptism is essential for Salvation. Yes, some may not(depending on their background) but that is the same with the Restoration Movement (many of today's "Preachers" do not teach it as they should). An example would be Pastor John Hagee. I may not agree entirely with some of his theology, but he does believe that Baptism is a part of the salvation process. Yet, he is not a "Christian Church" minister.

This thread as I read was meant to answer the question such as, "Can God accomplish His divine will through President Bill Clinton (the man of lawlessness?)? Or "Can God accomplish His divine will using the ACLU, or Iraq, or the UNited nations?" Instead it has turned out to be another witch hunt against promise keepers!

I am sorry- I just could not keep my big mouth shut. I do not claim to be all knowing or have all the right stuff. But, I try.

-- Anonymous, October 09, 1999

SLAMMING?

Brother Kelly: You begin your post with these words: Michael, It seems that where ever we go if you have a slightly different opinion- then you are slammed for that opinion. We are allowed freedom of thought... God never wanted us to be robots. Brother Kelly, you have often harshly criticized those who disagree with your opinion. In fact you have only a few days ago repented for "slinging mud in the PK room. Now you would not have been doing that if you had not been trying to SLAM someone for holding an opposing view of PK from your own. Now, while I admire your penitent Spirit and I have prayed for you, I cannot let this complaint go unanswered. You complain that when someone holds a slightly different opinion they are slammed when it is clear that you have been guilty of the very thing that you are accusing everyone else of doing. Notice that you called me a liar because I pointed out the truth concerning your saying that those who oppose PK are FULL OF IT. Here are your very words: I would like to ask... where did I say that the brethren that oppose PK are "full of it"? I never once stated that. If you inferred it as you misapplied what I state then you need to recognize YOUR error. Or, if you stated that I indeed said that- which I did not then you sir are a liar!

Was this an effort on your part to slam someone who held a different opinion from you? When you were clearly shown by Brother Duane where you had actually said those words that I had accused you of saying you very admirably repented with these words:

I would like to apologize for the remark that I said "you all are full of it"- I am sorry. It does not sound like me. I do not know why I said it- I guess I was out of sorts that day... "Get behind me Satan!" Thus I repent. Also I want to ask forgiveness for mud slinging in this room. I am guilty just as much as anyone else.

Now you repented for doing the very thing that I had accused you of doing but you never repented for calling me a liar for having accused you of doing the very thing that you had repented of doing. Now, You repentance is right and you have given a good example for us to follow but to call someone a liar unjustly is about as close to slamming as one can get. You called me that because I hold a different view than yours.

Then you said that you might have offended me because you said that the lack of a piano is silly these are your words:

See, the whole issue boils down that I most likely offended you when I spoke of the lack of use of a piano as silly. No, you cannot offend me about the piano. What you had said that was clearly another example of mud slinging or slamming those who hold a different opinion as you put it can be found in your following words:

The accapella brethren plead for a "blue print" mentality of interpretation, where if it is not in scripture then leave it out. In my humble opinion that train of thought is silly! Now, it does not offend me in the least that you say these words. But they are an example of you slinging mud at those who disagree with your opinion. They are also an example of what you call slamming. I do not consider it a very significant statement; in fact it shows that you have very little understanding of the instrumental music issue. But it is sufficient to show that you are guilty of the very thing that you consider slamming. Now I personally do not think that anyone has been slammed because some one responds to him or her to correct what they consider to be error contrary to the word of God. But YOU think so. And using your own criteria you are guilty of the slamming that you complain about. One more example of your being guilty of this slamming that you complain about is as follows:

PS. TO ALL DR CHAMBERS FANS: I am an alumnus of FCC and DR. Chambers may have been a great teacher... but he is not God-- perhaps that is why I transferred to JBC. -- Anthony D. Kelley (wwjdkelley@hotmail.com), September 08, 1999. Were you trying to slam all Dr. Chambers fans? You see Brother Kelly, you want to debate but you want all of the action to be on one side only. You are like one who thinks he can go to war and only his soldiers will have bullets and only his side will inflict casualties. You think that the other side will not have any weapons or ammunition. If you do not like the heat then stay out of the kitchen. The nature of debate is for opposing sides to discuss and answer one anothers arguments with the hope that an agreement or at least a better understanding can be reached. So what you call slamming is nothing more that open and honest discussion, though it often gets heated and is frustrating it can and does often produce great results. It is not however a procedure those false teachers like very much!

Is a PK an enemy of God? Any one who teaches a different Gospel should be anathema! Gal. 1:8,9. Anyone who is not in Christ is an enemy of God because they have not been obedient to the gospel of Christ. ( 2 Thess 1: 7-11). Those who have not been baptized into Christ are not in Christ and are therefore in the kingdom of darkness. (Col. 1:13). Those who are not Christians are enemies of God and no one is a Christian who has not obeyed the gospel of Christ. (2 Thess 1:7-11). Those who teach a doctrine other than the doctrine of Christ Hath not God. (2 John 9-11). Those who teach that Baptism is not essential to salvation are not teaching the doctrine of Christ and therefore do not have God. They are therefore enemies of God. The PK ORGANIZATION does not teach the doctrine of Christ and His truth about baptism found in the following passages: Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Acts 8:25-40; Acts 22:16; John 3:3-5; Titus 3:3-5; Eph. 5:26; Col. 2:10-12; Heb 10:22; I Peter 3:21; Gal. 3:26,27). Now that means they do not have God. (2 John 9-11.) So according to the word of God they are enemies of God. PERIOD. But you say that they are not Gods enemies in your eyes with these words. In my eyes they are not. Brother, we are not looking into nor are we using your eyes to determine who Gods enemies are. We use the only means of knowing who is a friend or an enemy of God. Gods word is what decides that matter. Your eyes have nothing to do with it; Absolutely nothing! Then you say that we cannot prove that PK is against baptism: Most of the people against PK cannot prove with real documentation their point that the PK organization is against Baptism. First of all no one is saying that they are against baptism. One can scarcely find a denomination that is against baptism. What you find is that they are against baptism for the remission of sins. (Acts 2:38). They are against baptism being essential to salvation. Mark 16:16. They are against baptism having anything whatsoever to do with being born again and the entrance into the kingdom of God. ( John 3:3-5; Titus 3:3-5; Eph. 5:26; Heb 10:22). Are you trying to tell us that you have evidence that the PK ORGANIZATION supports and teaches that Baptism is for the remission of sins and is necessary to the new birth and that a person cannot be saved from their sins without it? If you want documentation why do not you go with me to preach the gospel to them at the PK meeting? And when I stand up and tell those who want to be born again that they must be immersed for the remission of sins and I urge them to obey the Lord immediately by being baptized you will find where the PK ORGANIZATION stands on the matter. Further more all you have to do is go to Michaels website where you will be directed to the PK website and read of the so-called conversions there. There are literally hundreds of examples of people who have accepted Christ but I have not found one yet that was told that he must be immersed in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. The site reeks with faith only doctrine. Anyone can see from that website that they do not teach the doctrine of Christ about baptism. Their very website is all the documentation that you need. But you have been there brother and we are going to use your own testimony to prove that they DO NOT BELIEVE NOR TEACH THE TRUTH ABOUT BAPTISM. But where is your documentation that the PK ORGANIZATION promotes the gospel of Christ by commanding as Peter COMMANDED the household of Cornelius to be baptized. What plans and arrangements are made at PK meetings for those desiring to be saved from their sins to be baptized? In fact, according to several comments in this forum they have refused offers of portable baptisteries for the purpose of baptizing those who would become Christians. They are clearly avoiding the subject like the plague. You are the one that claims that they do believe in baptism. But you do not tell us just how or what they believe about baptism. All Baptist believe in baptism but they do not believe that it is essential to salvation nor for the remission of sins. The Presbyterians believe in baptism but they do not believe that immersion is absolutely necessary. The Methodist believes in baptism but they will baptize you in any way you want Pouring, sprinkling or immersion. The Catholics believe in baptism but they believe in baptismal regeneration as if there were some magic in the water. The Episcopalians believe in baptism but they will gladly baptize an infant that know neither sin nor Christ and cannot have any faith whatsoever. Just because you can find a place where the PK says that they believe in baptism does not mean that they believe the TRUTH about baptism. It does not mean that they believe that it is necessary to salvation. You know this brother Kelly. Why are you trying to make it sound as if they believe exactly what the scriptures teach about baptism when in fact you as well as the rest of us know that the PK organization does not believe such. Just because you can find a few individuals or even speakers that believe in baptism does not mean that the Pk organization believes in it. Nor does it mean that those speakers stand up and speak bravely calling upon their hearers to be baptized into Christ that they might be saved. Can you find one that has done so with the full support of the PK organization? Your shallow sophistries are not very convincing Brother Kelly.

Then you say: The organization as a whole does teach Baptism. So does the Baptist Church but they do not teach that baptism is essential to salvation (Mark 16:16) or that it is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) Or that it is the very place where we are born anew of water and the Spirit. (John 3; 3-5; Titus 3:3-5; Eph. 5:26; Heb 10:22). They do not teach that anyone who has not been baptized into Christ has NOT put on Christ. (Gal. 3:26, 27). You know that they do not teach nor do they support or agree with those who do teach these things. All of you Pro PK brothers know that what I have said is true. You, Brother Kelly, especially know. Does the SEVENTH Promise teach the above listed things about baptism? Brother Kelly almost all of the denominations believe in Baptism most of them do not believe the truth about baptism. Why did you not tell us that they believe the TRUTH about baptism and that they believe that it is absolutely necessary to the forgiveness of sins and that no one will be saved without it? You know why you did not say those things. Because if you had said it in those words you would not have been telling the truth, Now would you? It is time for those who believe in the Lord to SPEAK THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH! Why do you seek to mislead us about this matter?

Then you go further: Further more the men (and women go too) who attend, are encouraged to be baptized after the call to receive Christ. I personally witnessed this- did they follow through- that is up to the individual and his church Now with this statement you prove conclusively that they do not teach the truth about baptism. For if they taught that Baptism was for the remission of sins, and that a person was not saved from their sins until they were baptized into Christ; they would not tell them to wait until they got home and leave the matter up to the individual and his church. Salvation from sin is a matter between the individual and HIS GOD who has spoke through Christ the Lord in the Holy Scriptures. And anyone that preached like Peter on the day of Pentecost would be crying out, save your selves from this untoward generation! Notice that the Bible tells us that, with many other words did he TESTIFY and EXHORT saying save yourselves from this untoward generation. (Acts 2:40). And those at the PK meetings if they had heard one preach as Peter did about baptism would have gladly received his word and would have been baptized. Acts 2:38-41. And those seeking to salvation from their sins would have been ADDED ON THAT DAY to the body of Christ. But because the PK ORGANIZATION does not believe that baptism is essential to salvation they treat it as a matter for the individual and his Church rather than a matter between the individual and HIS GOD. This very statement from you is not only proof that the PK ORGANIZATION does not believe that baptism is essential to salvation it also proves that you KNOW that the PK ORGANIZATION does not believe the truth about baptism. So why are you trying to leave us with the impression that they do believe the truth about baptism when you know that they do not so believe? The very fact that they do not urge those seeking salvation to obey the Lord in baptism the same hour of the night, that is IMMEDIATELY, is clear evidence that they do not teach baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation. If you have been preaching the truth in the Christian church for many years, you know that you could ask any sectarian if he believes in baptism and he would tell you yes. But if you asked him if he believed that baptism was essential to salvation most of them would tell you no. So your statement that the PK ORGANIZATION believes in baptism was intended to leave us with the impression that they believed the truth about baptism. You intended to leave the impression that the PK ORGANIZATION believes that baptism is essential to salvation and teaches it that way. Now you know that such is clearly not the truth and your own words prove that it is not the case.

Then you want to SLAM us with these words: This thread as I read was meant to answer the question such as, "Can God accomplish His divine will through President Bill Clinton (the man of lawlessness?)? Or "Can God accomplish His divine will using the ACLU, or Iraq, or the UNited nations?" Instead it has turned out to be another witch hunt against promise keepers! Now you need to read who started this thread. It was brother Demastus, who is almost as staunchly supportive of those who teach false doctrine as you, who started the thread. Everyone was discussing what was put forth to be a sincere question concerning whether God uses those in error to accomplish His purpose. No one even thought of the PK thread in relation to this discussion until Brother DEMASTUS said the following words: Thanks for the responses thus far. Darrell, don't you find it interesting that such a compartmentalization can be used in the different theological issues discussed. In relevance to this discussion, I see the thread of PK for sure. If it is true that PK can indeed be used by God to accomplish His purpose even when it is either full of error or somewhat in error then I certainly have been able to see God's accomplishments through such an organization thus far, even to the absolute illogical views of others on this.

Notice it was a supporter of PK who said,  In relevance to this discussion, I see the PK thread for sure and began arguing that God was accomplishing His purpose through PK. So we can all see, Brother Kelly, that it was a PK supporter, in fact the very person that you wrote this POST to that started your so-called PK WITCH HUNT. So if this is a PK witch hunt, which it most certainly is not, it is the first witch Hunt initiated by the witches that are being hunted!!! So if you are one of the witches you had better get with the other witches and tell them to stop instigating witch hunts if you are tired of being hunted.

I have to go rest for now.

Brother Kelly, I pray fervently for you. I pray that our Lord will help you to see that you are supporting His enemies.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 10, 1999

Was your post a counter slam? I wonder if I should post anymore... Seems that whenever I post a reasoned objection to doctrinal error, I get "slammed". I don't want to think like a robot, and just go with the "unity at the expense of doctrine" flow. I want to be entitled to diversity of opinion. Yet this forum seems to be a Witch hunt against conservative thought.

You see how it cuts both ways? Mr. Kelley, you really do have good moments, when you give sound reasons for your opinions. But then you blow it every time by using fallacies even those on your side of the fence can detect. Would you PLEASE REALIZE NOBODY IS SLAMMING ANYBODY!.... NOBODY IS ON A WITCH- HUNT! And nobody is going to join your pity party.

-- Anonymous, October 09, 1999

Brother Kelly,

John Hagee doesn't believe baptism is esential to salvation and niether do the Promise Keepers. The you are not done yet attitude is "An outward sign of an inward grace." Haven't you ever studied Baptist Theology? If the Promise Keepers believed that you HAD to be baptized to be saved they would baptize the men when they came forward. By the way, a friend of mine was there to observe and he said these men repeated the "Sinners Prayer". Why did you fail to mention that? Come on let's mature in biblical principles and Scripture.

Jim Spinnati

-- Anonymous, October 09, 1999

AMEN Brother Spinnati! Amen and Amen!! You have seen through this fallacious argument of Brother Kelly's completely haven't you! You came out of sectarianism and you know their tactics well. Keep watching, Brother Kelly has learned their stratagies about saying something without being able to be accused of really saying it. But He is not as skillful as the sectarian enemies of God, who are masters of deceit.

I pray that God will bless you in your work Brother Spinnati. May our blessed Lord abide with you this day.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 10, 1999

Now wait a minute! One thing needs to be said that I wholeheartedly disagree with- no one has ever given sited proof of PK's theological stance. What I do read from some of the post is pure inference. Where is the hard documentation that Promise Keepers is a "faith only" organization? I do not see any. But, what I do see is the inference that they along with Michael and myself teach false doctrine. As for John Hagee- he is not baptist and where is the proof otherwise. As a matter of fact- he does say that you must be Baptized into Christ in his literature (he quotes Acts 2:38)here is a direct quote "It (Baptsim) is not meant as an option, it is a command." (Real documentation)

The arguments that some have made are good biblical reasons- if they applied to what I have been arguing for all along. What is needed is hard research.

Let me also say- let us deal with the issue at hand. Mr. Staffold I would like it if you stuck with arguments from THIS post. You tend to take other post from other topics that have said and use them here to try to prove your point. Which in many cases are taken out of context. Also- as for calling you a liar- I said (in context) that if you misquoted me on saying the term "full of it" then you where a liar. I had previously forgotten that I had said it- thus it was my mistake I appologized after I realized what had happened. And again I appologize. Let us leave that dead dog alone... please.

Over and over- I have pleaded with you and others to prove it to me. But, you have not. I will openly repent if you show me. If you truly care for me as a brother in Christ as you say- then site not my words but documentation.

The Bible is plain on salvation. A person must believe, repent and be baptized (immersion). If a person is a PK, denominationalist or other and has done these then they are a brother or sister in Christ. The only case for rebaptism in the Bible is to make the disciples of John into the disciples of Jesus because they did not have the H.S. In theory (which many times is more than theory) a person can belong to a denom. Church and still be a Christian... if he/she has been immersed into Christ having accepted the Lord through faith and repentace. THis is biblical. There is no argument there. If a PK, Baptist, AG or otherwise has given their life to the Lord in faith, repentace and Baptism (immersion)into the Father, Son and Holy Spirit then they are CHRISTIANS! To say they are not becasue they belong to a denom. Church and not ours is wrong.

I appeciate everyone of you for your insightful comments. And I too pray for wisdom and strength to be a bold witness so I can preach CHrist more courageously. Can God use PK's yes... can God use Pagans to accomplish His glorious will... yes- this is the thread of this room.

In Christ... A. Kelley

-- Anonymous, October 10, 1999

Brother Kelly:

You have asked a fair question, which I have answered in my previous post, However, because I do care for you as a brother in Christ I will answer it again. You asked the following:

Over and over- I have pleaded with you and others to prove it to me. But, you have not. I will openly repent if you show me. If you truly care for me as a brother in Christ as you say- then site not my words but documentation.

Now you want documentation that Promise keepers do not teach the truth about baptism. That is that they do not teach that baptism is essential to salvation and that a person cannot enter the kingdom of God without being baptized. You want documented proof that they do not teach that without being baptized one cannot obtain the forgiveness of their sins. You want proof that they teach that one can become a Christian and enter the kingdom or Family of God without being baptized. Your request for such documentation that proves these things is fair. Now you gave us documentation of this yourself with your own words which I showed in my last post: Your words were:

Further more the men (and women go too) who attend, are encouraged to be baptized after the call to receive Christ. I personally witnessed this- did they follow through- that is up to the individual and his church.

I pointed out to you that if they taught that baptism was essential to salvation they would not have left this matter up to the individual and his church". I will quote my words to you about that. We notice that you did not deal with that argument which I stated with the following words:

Then you go further: Further more the men (and women go too) who attend, are encouraged to be baptized after the call to receive Christ. I personally witnessed this- did they follow through- that is up to the individual and his church Now with this statement you prove conclusively that they do not teach the truth about baptism. For if they taught that Baptism was for the remission of sins, and that a person was not saved from their sins until they were baptized into Christ; they would not tell them to wait until they got home and leave the matter up to the individual and his church. Salvation from sin is a matter between the individual and HIS GOD who has spoke through Christ the Lord in the Holy Scriptures. And anyone that preached like Peter on the day of Pentecost would be crying out, save your selves from this untoward generation! Notice that the Bible tells us that, with many other words did he TESTIFY and EXHORT saying save yourselves from this untoward generation. (Acts 2:40). And those at the PK meetings if they had heard one preach as Peter did about baptism would have gladly received his word and would have been baptized. Acts 2:38-41. And those seeking to salvation from their sins would have been ADDED ON THAT DAY to the body of Christ.

But I know that you want us to quote from and official promise keeper source. The fact that you have witnessed this yourself and told us about it did not convince you. Therefore I will quote for you from a book entitled  SEVEN PROMISES OF A PROMISE KEEPER Published by Focus on the Family Publishing Copyrighted in 1994 by Promise Keepers with Bill Bright, Edwin Cole, Dr. James Dobson, Tony Evans, Bill McCartney, Luis Palau, Randy Phillips, and Gary Smalley as contributing editors. This is a book that most assuredly has the approval of the PK ORGANIZATION for they have the copywright and there is an introduction by Randy Phillips who is the President of Promise Keepers. In his introduction to this book, Randy Phillips, the President of Promise Keepers, ask and answers the question,  ARE YOU SURE YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN? Then, in answer to this question he writes the following, which I now quote in full so that you can have all the documentation that you need about this matter. He writes the following:

"ARE YOU SURE YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN?

 You need to do five things to become a part of Gods family. If you have not already done these, I urge you, if you are sincerely ready, to do them now:

1. Admit your spiritual need.  I am a sinner.

2. Repent. Be willing to turn from your sin, and with Gods help, start living to please him.

3. Believe that Jesus Christ died for you on the cross and Rose again.

4. Receive, through prayer, Jesus Christ into your heart and life. Pray something like this from the sincerity of your heart:

Dear lord Jesus,

I know that I am a sinner. I believe that you died for my sins and then rose from the grave. Right now, I turn from my sins and open the door of my life. I receive You as my personal Lord and Savior. Thank you for saving me.

5. Then tell a believing friend and a pastor about your commitment."

From Seven Promises of a Promise Keeper Copy Wright 1994 by Promise Keepers. Introduction by Randy Phillips, Page 10.

Now, Brother Kelley, there is your documentation and we await your repentance. Notice that they even follow the old Calvinistic idea that repentance precedes faith. Was this procedure what you we talking about having witnessed? It does sound like it because they end by telling the people to go tell a friend and a pastor. But notice what is not included in the list of things that Randy Phillips, President of Promise Keepers, listed as necessary to become a part of the family of God. Can you tell what is conspicuously ABSENT? It is baptism that is left out. Not a SINGLE WORD ABOUT IT WHATSOEVER, Brother Kelly. Now I would normally think that this is sufficient because those of you in the Christian Church know the five things that God tells us are necessary to become a member of Gods family. But I will list them here:

1. Hear the gospel. Romans 10:13-17

2. Believe the gospel. 1 Cor. 15:1-4; (Note the warning to those who do not obey the gospel also 2 Thess. 1:7-11).

3. Repent of your sins. Acts 3:19; Acts 17:30

4. Confess Christ before men. Matt. 16:16; Matt. 10:32,33; Romans 10:10;

5. Be Baptized. Mark 16:16; Matt. 28:19,20; John 3:3-5; Titus 3:3-5; Eph. 5:26; Heb. 10:22; Acts 2:38; Acts 8:9-25; Acts 22:16; Gal. 3:26,27; 1 Peter 3:21.

6. When one has done the above five things he is in Christ and therefore added to the Church (Acts 2:47) which is the house of God the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Tim: 3:15) Receives the Gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; Acts 5:32). He must then remain faithful unto death (Rev. 2:10) and he will receive the Crown of Life. Now he is in the in Christ and a mmeber of His body. He has no scriptural reason to be in a denomination. But He may end up in one if he is not taught the truth and because of this there may be some Christians in the denominations and they are in error for being in those human organizations that do not follow God's word and should be taught to get out of them. But most of the people among the denominations have been taught the false doctrine that I have quoted from the Pk book and the PK president and are therefore NOT CHRISTIANS and are yet in there sins. Anyone that supports the deception that causes these poor souls to believe until they die that they are saved and forgiven and in the family of God are the cause of them losing they precious and eternal souls. Those who support this false gospel deserve to be anathema! Gal. 1:8.9. Anathema means eternally cut of without remedy!

Now I hope that you are able to tell the difference between the truth about How one enters the family of God and the one I have quoted from Randy Phillips the President of the Promise Keepers in the book entitled, The Seven Promises of a Promise Keeper. Go look for yourself Brother Kelly. It is found on PAGE 10. Read it. There is your documentation. Now where is your repentance? I hope that you are not given to the jesting disease that your fellow Pk supporters seem to suffer from. I do care for you brother and I sincerely and with love in my heart call upon you to repent for having supported this organization that does in fact teach a doctrine that is contrary to the doctrine of Christ our Lord. And John, the apostle, told us to not give them a greeting and to not bid them Godspeed. If we bid them Godspeed we are Partakers of their evil deeds. You, Brother Kelly, have clearly been bidding them Godspeed and therefore you are a partaker of their evil deeds. I plead with you to repent and pray God for forgiveness.

I am praying that you will keep your promise to repent that I now quote: I will openly repent if you show me. If you do not then we cannot call you a "promise Keeper" can we?

You have been shown the documentation. And I can assure you that there is much more available but this that you have from the president of the PK organization should suffice. We await your repentance. The rest is up to you and God but since you openly supported these false teachers we call upon you to openly repent as you promised that you would. I gather from the fact that you say you are a Pastor in the Christian Church that you are one of the elders of your local congregation? If you are an elder in the church and not just a preacher who has designated himself as the Pastor then I must apologize for my tone and manner of speech before you. A Christian cannot rebuke an elder in the church. But if you are only a preacher who is "the" self-designated pastor rather than one that has been made an overseer by the Holy Spirit ( Acts 20:28) through the teaching of the word of God then my manner is appropriate and no apology is needed. If you are an elder, I am asking you to repent because you are one that is supposed to protect the flock of God from these wolves. Please repent Brother Kelly.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 10, 1999

Mr. Staffold,

Let us say that we agree to disagree. I do not want to be in a tennis match of saying who is and is not a Christian. Calling Randy Phillips a non Christian- when he is a Christian Church MInister is a cheap shot. You cannot make that statment.

The very fact that Promise Keepers list as their 7th promise the scripture of Matthew 28:18ff. shows us that they do consider it important- I will grant you the bennifet of being right on one issue they do have a weak stance- I never said they take a strong stance like the Christian Church.

But, I want to go on the record. I believe whether you feel I am wrong or not- that if a person has faith in CHrist, has and is repented/ing of their sins, and has been immersed into Christ then according to the Bible they are Christians. Regardless of what Denom. they belong to. If a Baptist wants to join the Church in which I serve and they have given their life in faith, repentace and baptism (immersion) to the Lord then I can accept them as Christians. Now they personally, might say they were saved when they beleived and then they where immersed. But as long as that immersion was into Christ- then they are Christians. They may be in error about the role of baptism- but still they are Christians. They must be taught that their baptism was more special than just an outward sign. But they are still Christians. Did the Philippian jailer know all the ins and outs of baptism. No! Based on a simple belief he and his whole house were immersed into Christ. Did the crowd on the day of Pentecost have full understanding of the role of baptism.. no! Yet they believed repented and were immersed- they did not have the apostle Paul's teachings to the churches in Asia minor.In fact every conversion is that way in the New Testament. And like I said earlier there is only one case in the NT for rebaptism and that was a baptism from John into Christ's baptism to receive the HS. Do people need to be reimmersed if they have been sprinkled... yes or if they were immersed for membership... yes or if they were immsersed into Christ by a denim church... no.

The whole issue goes deeper than just attending a Pk event. You want to be right and if anyone disagrees with you then you treat them like they are lost pagans never to be returned to the "true" faith. This is the feeling I get when I read your post. If I am wrong in this then I am sorry. You asked me to repent.... to you. No. To God for my personal sins... always. About attending PK? I stand in the grace and mercy of the Lord. Is it a sin to attend PK ... well let us let God be God. Although you may personally say yes.... I would tend to say no- but then again neither of us are God.

Perhaps this is the beautiful thing about our movement. We must all agree in matters of essentials, but in matters of opinion there is liberty. But, that breaks down when you feel thatgoing to a PK event is a matter of an essentials. I do not see that. So let us agree to disagree.

What I did witness a a recent PK event was Rick Kingham- Pastor of a large Christian Church in Seattle WA tell each person who came forward to be baptized- which is the next step after receiving Christ into their lives. Whether you feel that language or method is weak or not is a matter of opinion. But, they were told to do so. Does Mr. Kingham have influence- he has been involved with Pk since near its begining and has been the past vice President of the organization. He is still active in MCing events like the one I attended.

As for my use of the title of Pastor- which you accuse me of using improperly. I am a Pastor and elder within my church and I am the full time preacher. There is nothing unbiblical in my use of the term. So give it up!

-- Anonymous, October 11, 1999

Brother Kelly:

I have much that I want to say concerning your last post but I do not have time at the moment. However I do want to remind you of the promise that you made with these words:

Over and over- I have pleaded with you and others to prove it to me. But, you have not. I will openly repent if you show me. If you truly care for me as a brother in Christ as you say- then site not my words but documentation.

Now with these words you asked for documentation to prove that the PK organization was teaching false doctrine especially concerning the gospel plan of salvation that includes baptism. You said that you would openly repent if we showed you that they were teaching false doctrine. This was your offer, or idea, or challenge, which we are not sure how you meant it. It was not our idea. Therefore, I only asked you to keep your promise. I did not ask you to repent to me as you have again falsely accused me of having said. Go back and read and you will not find any place where I asked you to repent to me. I did however present the documentation", from an official PK source, that they are teaching false doctrine concerning how to be saved and that they ignore the truth about baptism. Inasmuch as you COMPLETELY ignored this evidence I will now quote it again. And again we only ask that you keep your promise to openly repent. This was your promise. We now want to see if you are a REAL promise keeper or if that was just a bunch of idle words. I call upon you to either admit that you support the doctrine as taught in the quote that I have given from the PK organization or admit that they are teaching false doctrine. If you chose the latter I call upon you to keep your promise to openly repent. Now it does not matter that this quote comes from Randy Phillips whom you claim is a Christian Church preacher. False doctrine is no less false if it is taught by a Christian Church preacher than it is if taught by anyone else. It is still false. Brother Phillips was speaking in his offical capacity at the time as the President of Promise Keepers. So it is sufficient to show you that the PK organization is teaching false doctrine concerning the plan of salvation and the fact that they leave baptism completely out of that plan is proof that they are teaching error concerning it as well. I now quote, again, what I said in my previous post along with the documentation, from an official PK source, that they are teaching false doctrine concerning salvation and baptism as follows:

But I know that you want us to quote from and official promise keeper source. The fact that you have witnessed this yourself and told us about it did not convince you. Therefore I will quote for you from a book entitled  SEVEN PROMISES OF A PROMISE KEEPER. It is Published by Focus on the Family Publishing and copyrighted in 1994 by Promise Keepers with Bill Bright, Edwin Cole, Dr. James Dobson, Tony Evans, Bill McCartney, Luis Palau, Randy Phillips, and Gary Smalley as contributing editors. This is a book that most assuredly has the approval of the PK ORGANIZATION for they have the copyright and there is an introduction by Randy Phillips who is the President of Promise Keepers. In his introduction to this book, Randy Phillips, the President of Promise Keepers, ask and answers the question,  ARE YOU SURE YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN? Then, in answer to this question he writes the following, which I now quote in full so that you can have all the documentation that you need about this matter. He writes the following:

"ARE YOU SURE YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN?  You need to do five things to become a part of Gods family. If you have not already done these, I urge you, if you are sincerely ready, to do them now: 1. Admit your spiritual need.  I am a sinner. 2. Repent. Be willing to turn from your sin, and with Gods help, start living to please him. 3. Believe that Jesus Christ died for you on the cross and Rose again. 4. Receive, through prayer, Jesus Christ into your heart and life. Pray something like this from the sincerity of your heart: Dear lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner. I believe that you died for my sins and then rose from the grave. Right now, I turn from my sins and open the door of my life. I receive You as my personal Lord and Savior. Thank you for saving me. 5. Then tell a believing friend and a pastor about your commitment." From Seven Promises of a Promise Keeper Copy Wright 1994 by Promise Keepers. Introduction by Randy Phillips, Page 10.

Now, Brother Kelley, there is your documentation and we await your repentance.

It is clear to all who read your response to my last post that you COMPLETELY IGNORED the documentation that you requested and that we HAVE SURELY supplied. Why did you ignore it Brother Kelley? Is it that you do not want to admit that you agree with their doctrine as stated by Randy Phillips? Or is it that you do not want to admit that the PK organization does, in fact, teach false doctrine and that you have been supporting them in it? Which is it Brother Kelly? Your ignoring this documented proof when it was you that requested it and promised to openly repent if it were ever given is extremely deceptive. You are pretending that such evidence has not been presented. You will wait a few weeks and then charge us again with words like these: Over and over- I have pleaded with you and others to prove it to me. Now it is only right that note be taken by you and all else in this discussion that you were presented with the evidence and you have thus far COMPLETELY ignored it! Therefore, in coming weeks, when you argue that no one has ever proven their contention that the PK organization is teaching false doctrine I will simply copy and paste this to you over and over again to use your words until you DEAL WITH THIS DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE.

I will return with more to say as I have time but for now we are waiting for you to DEAL WITH THIS EVIDENCE and openly repent as you promised. That is if you are truly one who keeps his promises or are you just a promise Keeper by name and association with this organization that is teaching lies about how to be sure that you are a Christian?

I do pray fervently for you Brother Kelley. I did not falsely accuse you of using the title Pastor improperly. I only asked you which way it was being used by you because there are many in the Christian church who are NOT ELDERS but are the self-designated Pastors of their local congregations and such is completely against the teaching of the word of God. I am happy to hear that you are one of the elders in the church there and not just a preacher who is not qualified to be an elder who is the self designated Pastor of his local congregation. If you are truly an elder, and I take your word for that, then I will adjust my tone to show my regard for one who holds that great responsibility and one who WILL GIVE ACCOUNT for the souls under his charge. The sharp rebukes that you may deserve for supporting the PK organization which is teaching false doctrine I shall leave for God to do for I cannot take such a tone with an elder in the church. If you are truly an elder then I do now apologize for the sharpness of my speech in discussing these matters with you. For I cannot as a Christian do that toward an elder in the church and I will not. So please forgive my manner of speech which has been too sharp for anyone talking to an elder in the Body of Christ.

I do pray for you, brother, that the Lord will give you the wisdom to see the false doctrine that is being taught by the PK organization. And that you will turn from them and protect the flock under your charge for you will GIVE ACCOUNT FOR THEIR falling into the hands of these wolves in sheeps clothing. God will hold you to account, brother. Please open your eyes and see the truth.

Your brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 11, 1999

Sister Muse: I quote the following from Brother Michael Demastus with a few comments:

Madam Muse...your probably right. You wouldn't get past the front gates. And, unfortunately I was jesting Mr. Saffold who will respond with 78 pages worth of cut and paste from this but that is ok. I just don't take his argumentation style seriously and I try to light things up with a little fun. I'll keep trying because I know that he will respond to future posts of mine (being that I am in alliance with Satan and false doctrine and all). BUT, I am sure I could work out a ticket for you to go with my wife to Heritage Keepers if you like! :>)

-- Michael W. Demastus (demastus@netzero.net), October 08, 1999.

He refers to you as Madam Muse and I hope that he did not intend to be sarcastic because you are a woman. I appreciate very much your comments and your participation in this forum and your faithful stand for the truth. It is therefore my contention that you should be treated with respect. I realize that he may have been just jesting again but just in case I wanted to register my protest against your being treated unjustly simply because of your gender. I am aware that he may not have been sarcastic toward you with these words and if he was not then all is fine but if he was sarcastic then it is inexcusable!

He finally tells us that he was just jesting when he PROMISED me his extra tickets to the PK event with these words. And, unfortunately I was jesting Mr. Saffold who will respond with 78 pages worth of cut and paste from this but that is ok.

His PROMISE and invitation for me to attend this PK event were made in these words: Hey Saffold, I got an extra ticket available to the PK conference if you want to go. Thanks for your brevity.

-- Michael W. Demastus (demastus@netzero.net), October 07, 1999.

When one uses a joke that is a clever veil for a lie his jesting becomes a tool of deception. As it has in this case. When I accepted his challenge he did not respond directly to me. You detected his deception and asked if he were serious about his invitation for me to attend. Then you get this response from him telling you that he was unfortunately just Jesting Mr. Saffold. It is interesting that he considers the PKs as his Brothers even though most of them have not been immersed into Christ and have therefore never been born of water and the Spirit and are not in the family of God. But he speaks of me as Mr. Saffold. And in his other post he just says hey Saffold which appears as a slight indication that he does not consider me his brother in Christ even though I have obeyed the gospel and have been baptized into Christ and have been born anew of the water and the Spirit. He has also referred to all those who oppose PK as Saffolds as if he wants to denominate some faction in the Church with my name. A greater form of deliberate disrespect for a Christian than this could not be devised. Now I do not really mind what anyone calls me but these small things can be indicative hidden serious problems. When you are dealing with one who is always jesting you must pay attention to such small matters.

He says that he does not take my argumentation style seriously. You see what I mean? I am not sure that he takes ANYTHING seriously. I agree that he does not take my argumentation style seriously. It is evident from the fact that he also does not take my arguments seriously for he has thus far been completely incapable of giving an answer to them. Maybe this is the reason he does not take my style seriously. It could be that he just is not up to the task of a serious discussion that requires a skillful argumentation style.

He claims that he just wants to lighten things up a little bit. I do not doubt it. He seems to mostly desire this when the arguments against his position are weighing heavily upon him. When he thinks that he has a strong argument we do not see this desire of his to lighten things up a bit. Maybe now we are beginning to get to the root of his purpose in all of this jesting and why we see so much of it. Could it be that he is always jesting because the arguments contrary to his positions are constantly pressing heavily upon him?

But be all of this as it may, I would not count on his PROMISE to arrange for tickets for you to attend heritage Keepers with his wife. If your intention was the same as mine to teach the truth to the ladies at Heritage Keepers I am almost certain that you will learn that Michael was just unfortunately jesting with Madam Muse.

All of this is coming from one who claims to be a PROMISE KEEPER? It sounds if they are unfortunately jesting all of us about this PROMISE KEEPING business dont it?

I was and am still serious in my request that a group of Christian men contact me about our attending PK meetings with the purpose of preaching and teaching the gospel of Christ to them. I am now extending that same invitation to the wives. Our wives can go with us and attend the Heritage Keepers meetings to accomplish the very same purpose. I think it would be wonderful and many souls could be brought to our blessed Lord. I am extending this invitation because I have not received any takers from the men as yet. Or, are we ALL just jesting in this room? Are we serious about the cause of Christ and saving the lost? Or are we satisfied with just having lengthy theological discussions with each other with no real intent to save those for whom our Lord gave his life through the foolishness of preaching the gospel?

Now I do not mean to imply that those who do not take up my offer are doing nothing. But we have all expressed our concern that those at the PK meetings are not being taught the truth and acknowledge that they are coming to PK seeking the Lord. If we are truly concerned about this are we right in merely talking about it without having any desire to do anything about it?

So my appeal is once again made. Brothers and sisters are we missing a great opportunity? If we go and preach Christ and many obey would that not settle the issue once and for all? For if we are too successful the false teachers at PK will take their ball and go home. If we are not too successful our brethren will see that PK is at least teaching false doctrine so strongly that we cannot over come them. They would at least not be able to level the charge that we do not know what they are teaching at the PK meetings. I must go sister muse.

I pray that our loving Lord will bless you abundantly and that he will abide with you always and strengthen you.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 17, 1999

Dear E. and all:

I believe we can go anywhere in the world if we go there for the purpose of standing up for the Lord. (Even to a bar if for the purpose of teach the gospel.) There are many *unity* meetings going on today. Many from our groups want to unite with all religious people whether they are *in Christ* or not. I am not opposed to such meetings if one who is allowed to speak presents the gospel of Christ and that would not be tolerated in such meetings because teaching people that spiritual blessings are in Christ and then teaching them how to get into Christ would go against the very purpose of *unity* meetings. Therefore, there is nothing wrong with going to PK if the Christian is going to spread the gospel of Jesus. Otherwise you are enabling and condoning. That will save no one.

Just my thoughts!

-- Anonymous, October 17, 1999

Nelda:

I agree with you completely. That has been my point all along in this discussion of PK. If we attend with the purpose of preaching the gospel of Christ ( 1 Cor. 1:18; Romans 1:16) we will be doing the Lord's work. If we attend meetings like the Pk meetings with no intent whatsoever to preach the blessed gospel of our Lord we are then giving support and greeting to false teachers and are therefore compromising with them against the Lord. ( 2 John 9-11). As far as unity meetings are concerned, we cannot be one in Christ until we are all one with Christ. We surely therefore cannot be one IN CHRIST with those who are not yet even in Christ and are therefore united against Christ. Those who think that all we need to work toward is unity have not considered that unity against Christ is worst than division among those who are at least IN CHRIST. As Christians we should not merely seek unity but rather we should seek UNITY IN AND WITH CHRIST OUR LORD. This means that there cannot be ANY UNITY with those who are outside of Christ! For "what fellowship hath DARKNESS WITH LIGHT?" The Apostle John speaks clearly of this matter when he says, " if we WALK IN THE LIGHT as HE IS IN THE LIGHT we have FELLOWSHIP one with another and the blood of Christ cleanseth us of all sins." Thus there can only be fellowship and unity among those who WALK IN THE LIGHT. Those who are yet in their sins and are therefore yet walking in darkness can have no unity with the children of light. So when we try to unite with those who have never obeyed the gospel and are therefore waiting the certian judgement of God upon them ( 2 Thess 1:7-11) we are trying to unite with those who are against Christ who he will be "punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of God and the Power of his might". Unity against Christ may be unity but it is not the kind for which our Lord Prayed. He prayed that we may be one "even as we ( He and the father) are one." He also said' " Neither for these only do I pray, but for them that believe on me through their word; THAT THEY MAY ALL BE ONE; even as thou, father, art in me, and I in thee, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE IN US: that the world may believe that thou didst send me." John 17:21. Here the unity for which Christ prayed was that we may be one IN CHRIST AND THE FATHER. Not that we just be one or united but that we be UNITED IN HIM. There is a big difference between "unity in Christ" and "unity outside of Christ". There is a huge difference in "unity about Christ" and unity IN CHRIST". It should be clear to all that there cannot be any genuine unity between those who are in Christ and those who are outside of Christ any more than there can be a union between darkness and light. This fact has beeen terribly ignored by those among us who have chosen to compromise through unity meetings with those who are in the so called "ecumenical" movement. Those of us in this forum, who are in Christ should be working toward unity among ourselves since "Christ is not divided". 1 Cor. 1:10. But in relation to those who ARE YET IN THEIR SINS AND ARE WITHOUT CHRIST AND WITHOUT HOPE IN THIS WORLD; WE SHOULD SEEK TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THEM AND BRING THEM INTO CHRIST RATHER THAN TRYING TO HAVE UNITY WITH THEM WHILE THEY ARE YET OUTSIDE OF CHRIST, AND AGAINST CHRIST AND REJECT HIS BLESSED GOSPEL.

I belive that you are one who would agree with what I have just said but many in the restoration movement today have completely MISSED this point.

I PRAY THAT OUR LORD WILL BLESS YOU ALWAYS,

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 18, 1999

Brother Saffold,

I do very much appreciate your coming to my defense, but I do not think that Michael meant any disrespect or harm.

I am in complete agreement with you and Nelta on association with PK and others like them. I wish those of you out there who support such could see the harm these false teachings do to a person. It is a brain-washing many can not break away from. Such teachings blind one from seeing the truth that saves.

-- Anonymous, October 18, 1999

Madam Muse and surely-sore-fingered-from-typing brother Saffold,

Just a thought or two. The naively beautiful record that Dr. Luke gives us in Acts is such a far cry from the present reality of what our church's experience on Sunday mornings in general. We have lost true community. The koinon in Luke's description is nothing more than words in a dead language for you and I today.

I went to PK this past week-end. I baptized two individuals as a result of that conference. I had 31 men total from our congregation go and I would have taken every single man had he been able. We worshipped, we learned, we heard error and recognized it as such - in fact, we even used it as an opportunity to teach the truth. And probably most importantly we were where God wanted us men to be. God has begun a work in the hearts of some formerly cold-hearted men in our church here and this PK conference was the catalyst.

Now Saffold, you're gonna disagree. I personally couldn't care less if my car was on fire. I know that many of you disagree, that is fine. Your disagreement is not viewed by me as a soteriological assessment even though some of you feel quite arrogant enough to do just that.

You see I personally found out this week-end, here in Des Moines, Iowa, that Jesus is still a carpenter because He hit me up side the head with a 2 x 4! God used PK this week-end. Just like he uses me each week-end to preach the blessed gospel and how he uses Saffold, or Muse, or Nelta.

I have been enriched and refreshed and seen some dramatic turn- arounds in some men's lives here, but I knew God was going to do that because I have seen it before.

Now Saffold you don't agree that PK can be used by God in such manner but I quite honestly see it worlds differently. You addressed why you think I don't take your argumentation style seriously in a previous post, well thanks for thinking for me, but you missed the mark. The reason why is because I don't hear you after about two sentences. Learn to be concise and maybe I'd hear you better. I heard Danny just fine and his posts aren't near as long as yours. That is not a personal slam against you, it is just why I don't take your arguments seriously.

-- Anonymous, October 19, 1999

Michael,

I whole heartedly agree with you... to that I say Amen. I was in Des Moines this past weekend, but I could not attend the PK event, although I really wanted too. I was praying for you and all 12,000 plus men that you had a blessed time.

Yours In Christ A.Kelley

-- Anonymous, October 19, 1999

Brother Demastus:

I now quote your last post with a response as follows:

Madam Muse and surely-sore-fingered-from-typing brother Saffold, Just a thought or two. The naively beautiful record that Dr. Luke gives us in Acts is such a far cry from the present reality of what our church's experience on Sunday mornings in general. We have lost true community. The koinon in Luke's description is nothing more than words in a dead language for you and I today. I went to PK this past week-end. I baptized two individuals as a result of that conference. I had 31 men total from our congregation go and I would have taken every single man had he been able. We worshipped, we learned, we heard error and recognized it as such - in fact, we even used it as an opportunity to teach the truth. And probably most importantly we were where God wanted us men to be. God has begun a work in the hearts of some formerly cold-hearted men in our church here and this PK conference was the catalyst. Now Saffold, you're gonna disagree. I personally couldn't care less if my car was on fire. I know that many of you disagree, that is fine. Your disagreement is not viewed by me as a soteriological assessment even though some of you feel quite arrogant enough to do just that. You see I personally found out this week-end, here in Des Moines, Iowa, that Jesus is still a carpenter because He hit me up side the head with a 2 x 4! God used PK this week-end. Just like he uses me each week-end to preach the blessed gospel and how he uses Saffold, or Muse, or Nelta. I have been enriched and refreshed and seen some dramatic turn- arounds in some men's lives here, but I knew God was going to do that because I have seen it before. Now Saffold you don't agree that PK can be used by God in such manner but I quite honestly see it worlds differently. You addressed why you think I don't take your argumentation style seriously in a previous post, well thanks for thinking for me, but you missed the mark. The reason why is because I don't hear you after about two sentences. Learn to be concise and maybe I'd hear you better. I heard Danny just fine and his posts aren't near as long as yours. That is not a personal slam against you, it is just why I don't take your arguments seriously.

Brother Michael:

I refer to your last post and remind you again that you have not even attempted to answer the arguments made against support for Pk without preaching the gospel to them. You begin with what appears to be concern for my sore fingers.

Madam Muse and surely-sore-fingered-from-typing brother Saffold,

Brother, there is no need for concern about my fingers. They, as well as my lips and feet are accustomed to writing, speaking and going to preach the gospel to all that I meet supported solely by Gods providence. Therefore they are not now nor will they ever be weary or "sore". For the Lord is my strength. Were your concerns sincere I would express my appreciation but it is obvious that you are seldom sincere.

Then you say that Luke was naive?

The naively beautiful record that Dr. Luke gives us in Acts is such a far cry from the present reality of what our church's experience on Sunday mornings in general.

There is nothing naive in the word of God brother. The Account of Christianity given by Luke through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in the book of Acts is COMPLETELY contrary to and opposite of the doctrines taught at PK. That account is far more removed from what is seen among the PK meetings than from what is viewed among us. In fact when you speak of our present reality you do not speak for my reality. If you would like to witness Christianity as it was in the days of the New Testament I invite you to come to Alabama and worship with us at the Church of Christ. False doctrine was not taught nor did the saints that we read about in the book of Acts tolerate it. But you go to a PK meeting and accept error without making any effort to stand against it. You will not find any thing like that in the beautiful book of Acts. So the Book of Acts probably is a far cry from your reality not only in your local congregation but also among the PKs.

Then you attempt to speak for all of us again with these words:

We have lost true community. The koinon in Luke's description is nothing more than words in a dead language for you and I today. Now, Brother Michael, you assert this but do not even attempt to prove it. In the congregation where I worship the saints are walking in the light as He is in the light and we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus cleanseth us from all sin. We are united with Christ through His eternal word and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness and give none that do not bring the doctrine of Christ Godspeed. 2 John 9-11. We worship and serve our Lord all day long on the Lords day and are in His presence at His table and as we go about to do His work and He sings with us in the mist of the congregation. Hebrews 13:15.

For we have not come unto a mount that that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and unto blackness and darkness, and tempest, and the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard entreated that no word more should be spoken unto them; for they could not endure that which was enjoined, if even a beast should touch the mountain, it shall be stoned; and so fearful was the appearance, that Moses said I exceedingly fear and quake: But ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable host of angels, to the general assembly and church of the first born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not Him that speaketh. For if they escaped not when they refused Him that warned them on earth, much more shall not we escape who turn away from Him that warneth from heaven: whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised saying, Yet once more will I make to tremble not the earth only but also the heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that those things, which are not shaken, may remain. Wherefore, receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us have grace, whereby we may offer service well-pleasing to God with reverence and Awe: For our God is a consuming fire. Hebrews 12:18-18.

Now this passage describes that kingdom which cannot be shaken of which those of us in the congregation where I worship know that we have come to and in obedience to the gospel we have entered into. All of everything else outside of that kingdom will be shaken. We therefore experience the reality every Lords day of being in the Presence of Christ our Lord surrounded by an innumerable host of angels, gathered around the Judge of all and along with the spirits of just men made perfect we bow before Him who loved us and washed us in His precious blood. Him who is the light and in whom there is no darkness at all. There we Lift up our voices accompanied only by the plucking of the strings of our hearts, which quiver, with the emotion of those who have been redeemed from death, united with their Lord, and raised to walk in newness of Life with Him forevermore. May the blessed Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world be praised and adored when all men shall bow the knee and confess that he is Lord to the glory of God the father. This is what we experience through out our lives and especially on the Lords day. When we all come together in His glorious presence to sing with all the host of heaven and all the saints on earth and those who have gone before all glory to the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world. I can assure you brother that we have no idea what you mean when you say we have lost the sense of community and that the koinon is nothing but a word in a dead language to us. Most of our brethren do not know a single word in this dead language that you speak of. We only know and serve a risen, living, Lord with all of our hearts, minds and souls. Now if this is something you would like to see for your self, all you have to do is yield to the Lord. Submit, and surrender completely to His will in all things. And obey His command to preach the gospel of Christ whereever you go. Then gather with those who share the like precious faith and commune with the Lord while eating the supper with Him and those of like mind you will see the risen Christ as you have never seen Him before. You will find that all of these movements started by men to improve themselves will pale into insignificance in comparison to genuine Christian faith. I speak of the faith once for all delivered to the saints. Now you may never have seen or experienced such a thing in your so called reality but you do not nor can you speak for me nor any of the others who share this like precious faith. In fact, it seems that many are trying all sorts of substitutes for the real thing in hopes of getting these blessings without going through the  way, the truth, and the life. John 14:6. Not man can go to the father except by Him. I do not know if you can comprehend the blessings that I have described above but your words indicate that your reality does not include these wonderful blessings. That Brother Michael saddens me. I will pray that our Lord will help you to come to the truth and find the faith that was once delivered to the saints. You will not find it among those who are contrary to the will of Christ. It is not found there. I speak here not only of the PK organization but also of any group of individuals who do not submit completely to the will of God through Christ our Lord.

Then you tell us that you baptized two men.

I went to PK this past week-end. I baptized two individuals as a result of that conference. I find it very interesting that most of you who attend these meetings just can not wait to get back and report to us that you have either seen someone baptized or that you have baptized someone yourself. This appears to be an argument that is supposed to justify you in your fellowshipping those who teach false doctrine. For you know that it has been my contention all along that IF WE GO to a PK meeting we should go with this very purpose in mind. The purpose of preaching the gospel to them and to baptize them into Christ our Lord. It appears therefore that you have at last been influenced to accept that point of view. Is that what you mean by telling us that you baptized two people? If you had the courage to stand up and preach the truth concerning baptism, without taking a gun as you once suggested and Jumping the stage could you have baptized more? You tried to tell us once that taking a gun and jumping the stage was the only way you could preach the gospel at the PK meetings. Are you now admitting that because you baptized two people that you were wrong about that matter? For how did you manage to baptize them without preaching the gospel to them? Are you trying to tell us that they heard the gospel preached there and that you baptized them without telling them anything whatsoever about why they were to be baptized? Are you telling us that the PK organization is now preaching as Peter did? Are you telling us that those who ask what they must do to be saved are being told by the PK organization to repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit? Acts 2:38. Are you telling us that you went there with the intent to teach the gospel and hopefully convert a few and thus baptize them into Christ? Or, are you telling us that you baptized a couple of people whom you brought with you to the meeting? And allowed all of the others that wanted to come to Christ with no more information than the sinners prayer, that is preached at Pk meetings, to leave without knowing the truth that they must be born of water and the Spirit? John 3:3-5. If these people went with you that were baptized is it not possible that if you spent time teaching them they would have been baptized without attending the PK meeting? Would not the gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation have as much effect without an emotionally charged meeting of false teachers teaching doctrines contrary to Christ to get them into the mood to hear the truth. Be careful brother that they were not converted to the sensation instead of the savior!

If you taught them the truth and they heard it gladly and obeyed the gospel sincerely then I must say that I am thankful to God for their salvation in Christ our Lord. I must also point out that such only further establishes my very point that I have been trying to make with all of you who support PK. The point being that we should attend with the purpose of preaching the gospel of Christ to those who come there seeking our Lord Jesus and His salvation. We should not let any of them leave thinking that they were saved simply by mentally accepting Christ into their hearts and praying the sinners prayer while neglecting to be born of water and the spirit in obedience to His promise, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Mark 16:16. So if you are attending the PK meetings to preach the gospel and to baptize men into Christ you are doing the very thing that I have been urging you to do. But if you attend these meetings with no other purpose than to give support or greeting to those who do not teach the doctrine of Christ. Then you are a partaker of their evil deeds and the fact that you happen to have been able to baptize someone does not change that matter one single bit. We do not need the help of those who are not in Christ to further the gospel of Christ. You cannot obey God by disobeying Him. He told us through the apostle John to not give a greeting to those who do not teach the doctrine of Christ. If you do that you are being disobedient to God and how many you baptize while in disobedience to God will not save you from His displeasure. Those who teach a gospel other than the gospel of Christ will be anathema! Gal. 1:8,9. This includes those who support them. 2 John 9-11. So be careful brother.

Then you tell us how little you care if I disagree with you with these words:

Now Saffold, you're gonna disagree. I personally couldn't care less if my car was on fire. I know that many of you disagree, that is fine. Your disagreement is not viewed by me as a soteriological assessment even though some of you feel quite arrogant enough to do just that.

Now brother we care just about as much what you think of our disagreement. In fact it matters little if you disagree with me on anything. I agree with you completely on that matter. I am not the one that you will answer to. I am not asking nor am I expecting that you agree with me on anything. I am urging you to agree with our Lord Jesus Christ who spoke through the apostle John to both you and me to not bid Godspeed to those who teach a doctrine other than the doctrine of Christ. Brother, If you find yourself in disagreement with the Lord and in rebellion against Him it will not be a burning car that you will have to worry about. And any such disagreement with the Lord is without question a soteriological issue. You say it is not viewed by YOU in this way. Brother, you will not judge yourself. Neither will I judge you. But our Lord will Judge us in the last day and we had both be about finding our how these things are view by HIM. Remember, he is the one who said through the apostle John that we should not bid Godspeed to those who do not bring the doctrine of Christ. 2John 9-11.

Then you inform us that you found out this week end that Jesus is still a carpenter.

You see I personally found out this week-end, here in Des Moines, Iowa, that Jesus is still a carpenter because He hit me up side the head with a 2 x 4! God used PK this weekend. Just like he uses me each week-end to preach the blessed gospel and how he uses Saffold, or Muse, or Nelta.

Well, Just as I predicted, you have learned something from the PK that is not true at all. Jesus is no longer a carpenter. Your only proof of it was that he hit you up side the head with a 2 x 4! I do not doubt that you have been hit over the head with something but I doubt very seriously if Jesus was the one that hit you with it! In Matthew 13:55, 56 we are told that the people of Nazareth said, Is this not the carpenters son? Is not his mother called Mary? And his brethren, James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man these mighty things. And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, a prophet is not without honor, save in his own country, and in his own house. AND HE DID NOT MANY OF HIS MIGHTY WORKS THERE BECAUSE OF THEIR UNBELIEF Now, Michael, these people only said that Christ was the carpenters son. And this information did not inspire them to have faith in Christ. It did just the opposite! It was the cause of their unbelief. Their view of Christ was that he was as an ordinary man living in their town and growing up among them. They therefore saw him as the Carpenters son rather than as the Son of the living God! Now Christ was not then merely a carpenter and he is not now merely a carpenter. He was then and he is now the SON OF GOD! He is seated at Gods right hand! He is the KING of KINGS and LORD OF LORDS! He is not a carpenter. He may, we do not know for sure, have helped Joseph with his work as a carpenter but one cannot surmise from this that he was just a carpenter. There is not a single scripture that teaches that Christ is yet, even now a carpenter. How the idea of Christ as a carpenter inspires you more than the idea that he is the Son of God is beyond my ability to comprehend. But the PK organization has already taught you something false and you have learned it and repeated it to us. We therefore have documentation of our own, beside the documentation which I provided from the Pk book that the Pk organization is teaching false doctrine. Christ is much more than a Carpenter brother Michael and beware of those who would teach you to see him as a carpenter when it is Gods will that we see Him as The son of God. Matthew 16:16.

Then you finish your report with these words:

Now Saffold you don't agree that PK can be used by God in such manner but I quite honestly see it worlds differently. You addressed why you think I don't take your argumentation style seriously in a previous post, well thanks for thinking for me, but you missed the mark. The reason why is because I don't hear you after about two sentences. Learn to be concise and maybe I'd hear you better. I heard Danny just fine and his posts aren't near as long as yours. That is not a personal slam against you, it is just why I don't take your arguments seriously.

Well you were right about the fact that I do not agree that the PK organization is being used by God to accomplish His purpose. I have shown you, and you have never answered, that God intends to accomplish his purpose through the church. Eph. 3:7-11; Eph. 1:7-14. But you never answered the argument that I made in regard to your contention that Pk is being used by God so there is not much use in repeating it here. I will just say that even if God used Pharoah in Egypt to accomplish His purpose it would not have justified the ISREALITES in helping Him in his evil deeds because he was being used by God to accomplish His purpose! God uses evil men to accomplish his purpose in spite of their evil intents not because their evil intents. Josephs brothers sold him into slavery and Joseph told them that he realized that they intended it for evil but that God intended it for good. Joseph certainly did nothing to help them sell him into slavery! But your argument is that just because God uses evil men to accomplish his purpose that we are therefore justified in JOINING with them to support their evil. This, brother is false to its very core.

Now you say:

You addressed why you think I don't take your argumentation style seriously in a previous post, well thanks for thinking for me, but you missed the mark.

I said nothing about why I think that you dont take my arguments seriously. He is exactly what I said so that no one is confused:

I agree that he does not take my argumentation style seriously. It is evident from the fact that he also does not take my arguments seriously for he has thus far been completely incapable of giving an answer to them. Maybe this is the reason he does not take my style seriously. It could be that he just is not up to the task of a serious discussion that requires a skillful argumentation style.

I simply agreed with your statement and I pointed out that it is evident that you do not take my arguments seriously because you have been incapable of answering them. Now that is very different from stating anything about why I think that you do not take my arguments seriously. So you see, I did not miss the mark at all. I was not even shooting at the target you accused me of missing. That is your imaginary target, brother. The real target I have hit squarely in the center. You have been incapable thus far to answer the arguments that I have made and your excuse is that you do not like my style. I do not mind that you do not like my style. What I noticed is that you have not answered the arguments. You can hate my style but that is no excuse for failure to answer. Now if you cannot answer them that is fine. But the problem is still not my style but your failure to answer. If you had any good answers we would hear them and my style would not effect you in the least. I suggested that the fact that you have been incapable of answering the arguments is the reasons that you do not like my style. That statement was intended not to offer a reason for your distaste for my style but to point clearly to the fact that your are complaining of my style of argument without answering the arguments. After you have answered my arguments you are justified in judging my style. But to complain about the style of argument while ignoring to even attempt an answer to them is simply an avoidance mechanism. Now you are welcome to avoid but do not pretend that it is just because you do not like my style. This is your excuse for not agreeing to go with me to PK meetings to preach the gospel of Christ. Look, you can use your style on one side of the room and I will use mine on the other. The style was not the real problem. That was my point. You will notice that I suggested some possible reasons that you do not like my style but I did not chose one. I only asked "could" it be the reason not that "I think" it is the reason.

Then you give an excuse for your deafness to my arguments. You want them to be concise.

The reason why is because I don't hear you after about two sentences. Learn to be concise and maybe I'd hear you better. I heard Danny just fine and his posts aren't near as long as yours. That is not a personal slam against you, it is just why I don't take your arguments seriously.

Now brother, it does not matter to one who is interested in the truth whether some one is concise or not. I can assure you that if I were arguing your point of view you would have no trouble reading all that I have written with no complains that it was not concise. The PK meetings are anything but concise! You have no trouble with the length of their sessions filled with false doctrine.

I agree, however, with you about Brother Danny who also is opposed to PK. I like his style also and admire him very much. But his arguments have not persuaded you to turn from your error either, have they?

I have told you before that I do not have the skill and ability of men like Brother Danny and I admire him very much in the Lord. I can only work with the talents that I have. Brother Danny is concise for a reason and I am the opposite for a reason. Both methods will have their effect. For one who thinks that God can use false teachers to accomplish his purpose you should be able to know that God can use my simple talent to do the same.

I do pray for you Brother that our Lord will grant you to know His great Love for you and His will that you should follow the truth and contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 19, 1999

Brother Kelly:

He is a concise response to you. Of course you still agree with brother Demastus concerning promise keepers even though you do not keep your promises. I know that you have read our last post to you wherein we repeated the DOCUMENTATION of the FACT that the PK organiztion teaches doctrine contrary to the doctrine of Christ.

The documentation is still there. I have repeated it twice for you and you have ignored it. Is it possible that you have forgotten that you promised that if anyone would give documentation that the PK organization is teaching false doctrine that you would "repent openly"? You have not done that now have you? Brother you have not kept your promise but you support promise keepers! I promised to be concise so I will not copy and paste it to you but if you need to see the DOCUMENTED evidence you can either read my previous post to you or ask me to repeat it and I will be glad to do so. But as it stands now you are guilty of breaking a promise that you made to all in this room.

I pray that you will follow the truth and do that which is right in the sight of God concerning the promise that you have made and failed to keep.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 19, 1999

Lee,

You earlier accused myself and Michael of not trying to answer your doubts of Pk... well we have- yet you have not listened. It seems to me, Michael has given up on trying to "pursuade" you... perhaps not due to your assumption that you are right, but that you do not want to really debate. Instead you railroad your assumptions or opinions on everyone else. One thing we are in agreement on is the fact we are not God- then let God's word rule. But, you would inturn try to justify yourself using God's word- misinterpreting it. Or you instead look past obvious facts and seek your own end- just the very thing you accuse myself and Michael of doing.

I have clearly answered myself on the issue of the PK stance- yes, they teach a person to come to faith in Christ which is a clearly Biblical thing to do (Acts 2:38, I John 1:9, Matthew 16:16, Mark 16:16), and to repent of one's sins. Then they are told to be baptized into Christ- words that were spoken by Rick Kingham (MC)of the event in which I personally attended. Also, they reveal Matthew 28:18ff as one of their seven promises. If they were so evil, then why do they leave Baptism in? But, you say evey denomination teaches to be baptized but it is not for the remission of sins. But, look at the record- yes some denominations reject baptism or some embrase it as we do. But PK does not sponsor denominational views- but they attempt to unify a racial barrier and denominational barrier. I am not a supporter of denominationalism or eccumenical unity that throws out God's word for the sake of unity. Nor does Pk; they do tell and invite the men that come forward that they have only taken a first step next they need to be baptized. I would at this point agree that they do not take the courage to immerse men right then. But, does this make them evil? No, infact if a person comes forward in a service- I would much rather not immerse them immediately until I knew that they considered it's importance or they will be taking a bath as it I Peter 3:21 alludes to. Besides there is not one verse in scripture that says "thus says the Lord" about the time- all we have is the practice seen recorded- but look at the record, every case a person(s) were discipled FIRST. I always enourage these not to wait too long. For example the Philippian Jailer was taught first for most likely hours then he and his household were immersed. This was the practice of the early church, because you cannot deny what the Bible says. The koine' Greek is very clear on Baptism as immersion.

Now, I understand that you are very legalistic in many areas, but I want to warn you that Jesus condemned the Pharisees the most- because they relied on legalism which binds men to sin. But, we are saved through the grace of God. Your uses of Paul's admonishment in Gal. 1:6-10 is a charge against legalism of the Judiazers. You charge the Pk's of preaching another gospel, but by being legalistic you yourself are doing the same thing. For example the Church of Christ (noninstrumental) bind men to reject musical intruments- which is legalism and false doctrine for the Bible presents a clear usage of instrument in the OT and NT (I say this as not to start another thread but as an illustration). Paul then goes on to say, "You are Sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ" (Galatians 3:26). If a person who is an AG, PK, Baptist, Church of Christ, Christian Church, etc and has 1. belief 2. repentant heart 3. confessed and been Baptized or immersed INTO Christ - THEN THEY ARE A CHRISTIAN according to this passage. To say otherwise according to your standard is legalism. To say a person cannot be a CHristian and attend or be a member of a Baptist Church or attend a PK event is legalism (and you did call Rick Phillips and others- non Christians).

Please consider what I say. I can imagine you will definately disagree with me. But, what else can I say but that I will pray for you- please continue to pray for me. And I tried.

Adue

-- Anonymous, October 19, 1999

Saffold,

In all seriousness, I am done in this debate because we have gotten only one thing accomplished. We have not given honor to God fully because we have been bickering like children. We both have slid all- too-comfortably into ad hominen style.

I have not changed you, you have not changed me. That is the one thing that will not change. I am upset with myself because I have formulated an opinion of you that is not high - and I don't even know you from Adam. That is wrong of me, and I ask your forgiveness for that. I don't blame you at all. In fact, I would certainly like to get to know you better. I think that as one stares at a cold computer screen, we can be afforded liberties that aren't normally ours in our daily life. We get more bold, we get more aggressive, we can easily be unloving.

I am guilty of this. I have much passion for ministry. And with every fiber of my being strive to proclaim Christ and His resurrection. I wish we could go out for lunch sometime. I think we'd find that we are much closer than we would so readily assume.

I appreciate your striving to uphold the integrity of the truth of God's Word. I have seen that as your primary motivation. That is honorable. Thanks for noble debate, but I think we are at a stand- off. I will give you last word my friend. Take care.

-- Anonymous, October 21, 1999

No, Michael.... both of you have done a great service to all of us lurkers, who don't often post, but read the arguments. I receive at least 50 emails a week from people who say how much they enjoy reading the "back and forth" of the issues as they are fleshed out. I think most of us understand the ad hominem rhetoric as being part and parcel of the debating process, and, within certain limits, it is tolerable. (So quit being such a jerk) (grin)

It's the nature of the beast.

Thanks to both of you, for displaying, even in the midst of your arguments, the spirit of Aquila and Priscilla.... By the way, about the post that started this thread... what did you mean by "debunked Satanic High Priest"...

-- Anonymous, October 21, 1999

By "debunked Satanic High Priest" I am referring to the expose that Cornerstone magazine did on Warnkee a few years back. They showed how he never was involved in the Satanic church - for anything. And they showed that as he was on tour as a comedian, he lived a drunkard and immoral lifestyle. He slept around and boozed it up, all the while preaching about Jesus.

I still have the copy of the magazine that all this appeared in. The reason they printed the story was not to gossip, but to bring him to accountability, which he had thus far ignored. Now I ahve no idea where Warnkee is after all that.

-- Anonymous, October 21, 1999

Brother Demastus:

I quote your last post to me in this thread and happily respond:

Saffold, In all seriousness, I am done in this debate because we have gotten only one thing accomplished. We have not given honor to God fully because we have been bickering like children. We both have slid all- too-comfortably into ad hominen style. I have not changed you, you have not changed me. That is the one thing that will not change. I am upset with myself because I have formulated an opinion of you that is not high - and I don't even know you from Adam. That is wrong of me, and I ask your forgiveness for that. I don't blame you at all. In fact, I would certainly like to get to know you better. I think that as one stares at a cold computer screen, we can be afforded liberties that aren't normally ours in our daily life. We get more bold, we get more aggressive, we can easily be unloving. I am guilty of this. I have much passion for ministry. And with every fiber of my being strive to proclaim Christ and His resurrection. I wish we could go out for lunch sometime. I think we'd find that we are much closer than we would so readily assume. I appreciate your striving to uphold the integrity of the truth of God's Word. I have seen that as your primary motivation. That is honorable. Thanks for noble debate, but I think we are at a stand- off. I will give you last word my friend. Take care.

I appreciate your tenor and tone in these words that you have written. I sincerely hope that we have accomplished more than mere ad hominem exchanges. I will leave that to the judgement of our readers and our Lord who watches all that we say and do. He will judge us for every idle word that we speak. You are correct however in pointing out the fact that we have both at times spoke with unnecessary harshness to each other. For any place where I have done such I extend to you my sincere apologies. I would also ask our Lord to have mercy on me for any such display. I have written too much to delineate specific examples but I know that in my heart I am only seeking to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints. There have been times, even this very day when I sensed that you were surely allied with our great enemy Satan himself and said so. But I must agree with you that we should know each other better before making any such attack.

I do wish that we could have lunch together for I find it very hard to believe that you are as opposed to the truth as you appear. (I mean as it appears to me). I would even attend a PK meeting with you if we could agree to do all that is in our power, while we are there, to teach the gospel of Christ to those seeking him. And urge them in the name of the Lord to be immersed for the remission of their sins. If we could do this together you may be able to help me improve my style as you put it. I surely would appreciate any help in improving my persuasive abilities. Who knows, you may even learn something of value from me?

Why dont we make the effort to get to know each other? I will give you my address: 5711 Hunt Cliff Rd Birmingham, Al. 35242. My home Phone number is 205-437-1695. My e-mail address is gdragon@mindspring.com. You can call me anytime that you like. Feel free to e-mail me. You are welcome, if you are in Alabama, to visit with us. If you are traveling we will give you a place to stay. We could then discuss these things in a different environment. I would be happy for you to worship with us at the congregation here in Hoover. Do not worry, if you cannot carry a tune without the piano there are some beautiful voices that will help you with the pitch. You may even have the opportunity to see something you have not seen about those of us who do not use instruments of music in the worship. One worship service with us has, for many, been our most successful argument for worshipping without the accompaniment of mechanical instruments of music.

My wife and I will prepare for you and your wife some of the best tasting Chinese food that you have ever put in your mouth. I am sure that you and your wife would be far more impressed with her faith than my arguments! She does not know how to argue about these things. She only knows that Christ is her Lord and she will do as he says do. Her faith is simple but beautiful, humble and obedient faith. Meeting her may be the most persuasive argument I could give for the faith that I am contending so much about.

You say:

I have much passion for ministry. And with every fiber of my being strive to proclaim Christ and His resurrection. I wish we could go out for lunch sometime. I think we'd find that we are much closer than we would so readily assume.

I have no doubt that you have a passion for ministry. Your zeal for these things that you believe in is obvious even on the computer screen. I am sure that you believe and strive to proclaim Christ and His Resurrection. In fact, if I did not believe those things about you I would not have so vigorously opposed you on this PK issue. For I am convinced that it is contrary to your own beliefs that you strive for with every fiber of your being. If you were only another sectarian seeking to have others follow him it would just be one more battle to fight. But with you it is different. You are one of Gods children. You are one who has been enlighten and tasted of the heavenly gifts and the powers of the world to come. Losing someone like you to any kind of error would be a tragedy that is very hard for me to idly watch. Now I know that you do not agree that you were going away from the truth but I am speaking of things as they appear to me in an effort to explain the reason for my urgency and concern.

So what do you say Brother Demastus? Shall we at least have a phone conversation with each other? Not about the issues but rather getting to know each other better. I would surely enjoy it. I will even pay for the call. I do believe you have hit upon something very important.

I do pray for you and hope that we both can realize that we are not just friends, we are brothers in Christ our Lord and He is not divided. We must strive to be of the same mind if there is any possible way. 1 Cor. 1:10. We can never be one in Christ until we are one with Christ. Let us all strive to follow Him and agree with Him. For it is clear that if I agree with Christ and you agree with Christ we cannot fail to agree with each other. In fact we would end up agreeing with each other without ever even talking with each other. As for those who have not obeyed the gospel of Christ. We cannot be one in Christ with them until the are IN CHRIST. In John 17 Christ did not simply pray for unity. He prayed that we would be one IN Him and the father. John 17:21. Anyone who has not been baptized into Christ has not been united with Him (Rom. 6:3-6) and until they are united with Him we cannot unite with them. Unity outside of Christ is unity against Christ.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 21, 1999

Brother Kelly:

You told me that you were an elder in the local congregation where you also labor in the word. I have just read your post in the Johnson Bible College thread wherein you tell all that you have just moved to a new ministry and that in less than a month you are not only the minister but you are also pastor of that congregation. Now just how did that happen? Did these brethren appoint you as an elder in that congregation? Or did you simply assume the title without in fact being so appointed? Here are your words:

Hey, I moved to a new ministry! I am now Minister/Pastor of Cornerstone Christian Church of Adrian, MO; which is a new church work just south of Kansas City. email me and I will give you my new address.

-- Anthony Kelley (wwjdkelley@hotmail.com), September 04, 1999.

I now quote your words to me where you stated that you are a pastor and elder within your congregation. I notice that it is dated October 11th 1999.

As for my use of the title of Pastor- which you accuse me of using improperly. I am a Pastor and elder within my church and I am the full time preacher. There is nothing unbiblical in my use of the term. So give it up!

-- AKelley (wwjdkelley@hotmail.com), October 11, 1999.

Are you telling us that you moved from your former congregation to a new ministry and from September 4th 1999 to October 11th 1999 the Brethren at that congregation appointed you to the eldership? Were they able to correctly judge that you have met all of the qualifications required of one who would hold the office of an elder as described in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-9 in such a short period of time? One of those qualifications is that one who would be an elder must have a good testimony of them that are without lest he fall into reproach and snare of the devil. Have you, in less than a month, established such a sterling reputation among those who are without? Is this the practice among Christian Churches to immediately appoint their ministers as elders upon hiring them to preach?

I fear that you have either not been truthful about your being an elder in the local congregation where you preach or the church where you preach does not take the appointment of elders in the church very seriously. In either case it is a serious violation of the will of God. It seems that either you are not an elder. Or the local congregation there has established a practice of appointing their local minister, even though he is a stranger to the community, to the eldership just so that they can fit in with the denominational practice of calling him the Pastor.

You say this is a new church work. Just how new is it? You already have elders? Or are you the only one who is an elder there?

If what you had said about this matter had been true and all of the other elders there were also called pastors then I was prepared to give it up as you put it. But now it all seems to have been quite different than the way you described it to me. Now, I am not convinced that you are in fact an elder in the church. And given the doctrine that you are teaching in this forum I cannot accept that you would be qualified to serve as an elder of a local congregation of the body of Christ. So the respect that I was willing to accord you for holding such a high and worthy position which the Holy Spirit appoints men to serve through the teaching of the word of God. (Acts 20:28), I withdraw until it can be established that you an elder in the church.

So it seems that you are in fact the self -appointed pastor in the exact same sense as that found among the denominations. Such is in complete rebellion against the teaching of the word of God. So I call upon you, if such is the case with you, to repent of this rebellion against our Lord Jesus Christ and end your usurpation of the rightful office of a shepherd which you have no authority from the Lord to hold. This is surely not the "way God works", as we are discussing in this thread, rather it is the way men pervert the ways of God.

I do fervently pray for you Brother Kelly.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 22, 1999

Brother Michael & Brother Lee,

Thank you for the great example of "love one another"! I was impressed by your tone and concern for each other, and I'm sure others were also. We can all learn from your example.

-- Anonymous, October 22, 1999

D, are you kidding?:-) Our Mike?

-- Anonymous, October 22, 1999

Speaking of getting in touch by phone.... It has come to my attention that many of you are contacting each other by email, and meeting in this Forum's chat room to chat....

You two may wish to take advantage of that... cheaper than a phone call, yet still one-on-one interactive...

-- Anonymous, October 22, 1999

Brother Kelly:

You have written several things in your post dated Oct 19, 1999 that I want to respond to but for now I only want to respond to your following words:

Lee, You earlier accused myself and Michael of not trying to answer your doubts of Pk... well we have- yet you have not listened.

Now Brother Kelly since you seem to have the ability to forget what you have said I would remind you. You asked us for Documentation that the PK organization is teaching false doctrine with these words from several posts in this thread, which I have not taken out of context. These words are from your post in this thread and anyone who wants to can go read them for themselves. I am writing my response in this case in the exact same context in which you have written so you cannot complain of being taken out of context without proving such to be the case. Now here are your words requesting documentation that the Pk organization is teaching false doctrine and I will follow with that documentation which has now been quoted for you THREE times and not once have you even attempted to deal with that DOCUMENTATION. Which is proof that you have not ANSWERED as you claim in this post to have done. We have been listening for a long time now Brother Kelly and we have received nothing but silence from you on this matter. It is there and you promised that should it be provided that you would repent openly. So we will try one more time to get you to answer this documented evidence that PK is teaching false doctrine. But first we will quote your following words wherein you ask for such and then we will quote the documented evidence again so that you cannot slide by using the tactic that it has never been presented to you. You also have clearly not spoken to that DOCUMENTED evidence and all that read this can see it. Here are your words from previous post in this thread:

One thing needs to be said that I wholeheartedly disagree with- no one has ever given sited proof of PK's theological stance. What I do read from some of the post is pure inference. Where is the hard documentation that Promise Keepers is a "faith only" organization? I do not see any.

In my eyes they are not. Most of the people against PK cannot prove with real documentation their point that the PK organization is against Baptism.

Over and over- I have pleaded with you and others to prove it to me. But, you have not. I will openly repent if you show me. If you truly care for me as a brother in Christ as you say- then site not my words but documentation.

Now brother Kelly, for the third time, I site-not your words- but documentation which you have completely ignored over and over again. This is the proof you have asked for and have now been given THREE times. I am quoting from my earlier post wherein I fist submitted it to you. That post is also in this thread so all can go through and see for themselves that what I am saying is true! FOr the THIRD time brother Kelly here is the documentation that you have requested:

"But I know that you want us to quote from and official promise keeper source. The fact that you have witnessed this yourself and told us about it did not convince you. Therefore I will quote for you from a book entitled  SEVEN PROMISES OF A PROMISE KEEPER Published by Focus on the Family Publishing. Promise Keepers with Bill Bright, Edwin Cole, Dr. James Dobson, Tony Evans, Bill McCartney, Luis Palau, Randy Phillips, and Gary Smalley as contributing editors copyrighted it in 1994. This is a book that most assuredly has the approval of the PK ORGANIZATION for they have the copyright and there is an introduction by Randy Phillips who is the President of Promise Keepers. In his introduction to this book, Randy Phillips, the President of Promise Keepers, ask and answers the question,  ARE YOU SURE YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN? Then, in answer to this question he writes the following, which I now quote in full so that you can have all the documentation that you need about this matter. He writes the following:

"ARE YOU SURE YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN?

 You need to do five things to become a part of Gods family. If you have not already done these, I urge you, if you are sincerely ready, to do them now:

1. Admit your spiritual need.  I am a sinner.

2. Repent. Be willing to turn from your sin, and with Gods help, start living to please him.

3. Believe that Jesus Christ died for you on the cross and Rose again.

4. Receive, through prayer, Jesus Christ into your heart and life. Pray something like this from the sincerity of your heart:

Dear lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner. I believe that you died for my sins and then rose from the grave. Right now, I turn from my sins and open the door of my life. I receive You as my personal Lord and Savior. Thank you for saving me. 5. Then tell a believing friend and a pastor about your commitment."

From Seven Promises of a Promise Keeper Copy Wright 1994 by Promise Keepers. Introduction by Randy Phillips, Page 10. Now Brother Kelly, I have asked you before but you have never answered, are the above documented teachings of the PK organization in harmony with the truth of Gods word? Or is it false doctrine? The way I asked you before was do you agree with this teaching from PK or is it false doctrine? If you agree with it then we will discuss the fact that it is false doctrine. If you admit that the above teaching is false doctrine then you have documented evidence that the PK organization teaches false doctrine and we call upon you to keep your promise to repent openly as you said that you would. Now Brother Kelly, this is the third time this has been presented to you and you have in fact completely ignored it and all can see that you have done so. Are you really a promise keeper or do you believe that the doctrine taught in the above documented evidence from official PK sources is teaching the truth of God? Which is it Brother Kelly? Now you began your last post by saying that you have answered but I was not listening. Why dont you just quote the place where you dealt specifically with this documentation that you have been supposedly begging for so long? You have NOT dealt with this specific documented evidence of the false teaching of the PK organization and our questions put to you concerning it. You know and all of our readers can see that you have not dealt with that evidence. I can understand that you would like for it to go away but it will not go away Brother Kelly. We want you to either admit that you believe it is teaching the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth or accept that the pk organization is teaching false doctrine and keep your promise to repent openly for supporting them. Your sanctimonious words and your pretense of answering cannot substitute for real honest and genuine answers to these matters.

I do pray fervently for you to turn from supporting the kind of false doctrine that is found in the above quoted PK source.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 23, 1999

Lee, I stand by my last post. I thought I covered quite completely what I felt about the PK stance. Please reread it. As for debating about PK- I will no longer do that. I have in other post presented what I believe, thus I will no longer do that about PK- I have much other things to worry about. Instead of this endless debate, why do we not answer some of the other questions in this board? You do not agree with PK and that is YOUR OPINION... but it is not mine. That is all I will say about that right now!

-- Anonymous, October 24, 1999

Lee, I just read you Oct.22, 1999 post- accusing me and the church in which I serve being unbiblical. I do NOT have to repent for my position in the Church in which I serve. I do NOT have to repent for being both a "Pastor" and a "Preacher". It is very clear that you do not understand your Greek nor the useage of the words. I am both- not only was I ordained a Minister but an Elder. The church in which I serve has four elders- all of which accept me as an elder too. The inteaded thread in this room is supposed to be how God works. Instead it is how Lee Staffold can accuse everyone and anyone of being unbiblical. Lee, until you repent of your harsh treatment of me, I will not have any further discussions with you. I have tried to be as loving and kind as I can. Yet, you have openly attacked me repeatedly. You have taken this too far. Brother, I love you in the Lord, but I can not and will not stand by and watch my name nor the church being ridiculed. Let us just love one another and quit this petty arguments.

-- Anonymous, October 24, 1999

Brother Kelly: I am responding to your post, which I now quote in full: I stand by my last post. I thought I covered quite completely what I felt about the PK stance. Please reread it. As for debating about PK- I will no longer do that. I have in other post presented what I believe, thus I will no longer do that about PK- I have much other things to worry about. Instead of this endless debate, why do we not answer some of the other questions in this board? You do not agree with PK and that is YOUR OPINION... but it is not mine. That is all I will say about that right now!

-- AKelley (wwjdkelley@hotmail.com), October 24, 1999.

Brother Kelly you claim to have covered quite completely what you felt about the PK stance with these words:

Lee, I stand by my last post. I thought I covered quite completely what I felt about the PK stance.

There is no doubt that you have covered what YOU FELT about the PK stance but please notice, Brother, as everyone else can clearly see, that you have not COVERED the documentation that PK is teaching false doctrine which I have now presented to you thrice. You have not even mentioned it. Why are you so afraid to deal with the documentation that I have given in response to your request for it? You promised that if such should be presented that you would repent openly. Now I would not have called for your open repentance in this matter if you had not promised it. Your only response to my third attempt to get you to answer the documented evidence that Pk is teaching false doctrine has be to give up on debating it. Here are your words:

As for debating about PK- I will no longer do that.

Brother Kelly, you were the one that made the bold statement that no one had documented evidence that Pk is teaching false doctrine and now that the documented evidence has been presented you want to leave the debate without dealing with it. If you were able to deal with it you would stay and do so but you are not willing to face the truth about it, are you? I entered this discussion with the assumption that you were genuinely interested in the truth about PK. Now that you have documented evidence that they are teaching false doctrine you demonstrate that you do not want the truth at all. You just want to run from it and continue to support Pk and later you will forget that the evidence was presented and will enter the debate again and accuse us of not ever presenting documented evidence that Pk is teaching false doctrine. That is ok brother Kelley. No one is stopping you from leaving the debate but when you come back the DOCUMENTED evidence will still be here and I will ensure that you again have the opportunity to face the truth about the matter.

Then you asked:

Instead of this endless debate, why do we not answer some of the other questions in this board?

If you will look around Brother Kelley you will find that I have been answering other questions on this board while you were totally focused on the PK issue. So I welcome you to the other questions for I have been there all along. I doubt that you will like debating with me on the other questions any more that this PK issue.

Then you try to leave the impression that this is just a difference of opinion between you and me with these words:

You do not agree with PK and that is YOUR OPINION... but it is not mine. That is all I will say about that right now!

This is not just between you and me brother Kelley. I have given documented evidence that PK is teaching false doctrine contrary to the very teaching of Christ our Lord. I have proven from the word of God that it is false. You have chosen to ignore it. Since PK is opposed to the doctrine of our Lord Jesus Christ this is a matter of faith and not opinion. John told us to not give Godspeed to those who do not have the doctrine of Christ. You are doing just that brother. This puts you against Christ our Lord. If this were nothing more than a matter of opinion between you and me I would have no concern over the matter at all. But you hold your opinion in higher esteem than the Gospel of Christ inasmuch as you support an organization that is teaching another gospel than the gospel of Christ which has been proven by the documentation that you have now repeatedly ignored.

Now I can understand your being busy. But I do not understand how you are not too busy to support PK but you are too busy to deal with questions concerning PK that you have no answer to.

Well, I guess I have said enough about this matter. We do pray for you Brother Kelley and we still await your answer to this documented evidence that has been presented to you or better yet your repentance that you promised.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 24, 1999

Lee,

It is my desire to state here that I will continue to attend PK rallies, and even encourage others to do the same. I stated the answers to the Documentation in my post above. I stated that I do feel that they are weak in their stance on Baptism- but they do believe in it. I HAVE said this and if you took time to read it you will clearly see this. You are right that I do not like to debate you- not that you are right and I am wrong. NO- but that you tend to be very legalistic and disregard anyone's view or what the scripture truly says. Now, I am not PK's defender- if you wish to debate them then do so. Where I take real issue is that you feel that you are absolutely right and every pro-PK is dead wrong. Perhaps there needs to be humility on your part. Not every person who attends PK is wrong and not every denomination is wrong. There are pockets of people who do genuinely believe what the Bible says- although they might call themselves something different than Christian Church or Church of Christ. Contrary to what you may say- PK is not a denomination nor do they promote any denominational view.

-- Anonymous, October 24, 1999

Now Brother Kelley I must answer your most recent post concerning your very rapid appointment to the eldership of the congregation that you have only been working with for a few months. I now quote your words in full:

Lee, I just read you Oct.22, 1999 post- accusing me and the church in which I serve being unbiblical. I do NOT have to repent for my position in the Church in which I serve. I do NOT have to repent for being both a "Pastor" and a "Preacher". It is very clear that you do not understand your Greek nor the useage of the words. I am both- not only was I ordained a Minister but an Elder. The church in which I serve has four elders- all of which accept me as an elder too. The inteaded thread in this room is supposed to be how God works. Instead it is how Lee Staffold can accuse everyone and anyone of being unbiblical. Lee, until you repent of your harsh treatment of me, I will not have any further discussions with you. I have tried to be as loving and kind as I can. Yet, you have openly attacked me repeatedly. You have taken this too far. Brother, I love you in the Lord, but I can not and will not stand by and watch my name nor the church being ridiculed. Let us just love one another and quit this petty arguments.

-- AKelley (wwjdkelley@hotmail.com), October 24, 1999.

Now Brother Kelley I have called into question the fact that you have moved to a new work and in less that a month you have been appointed to the eldership in that congregation. I will again quote your words that show such to be the case. On September the 4th 1999 you told everyone that you had just moved to a new work with these words:

Hey, I moved to a new ministry! I am now Minister/Pastor of Cornerstone Christian Church of Adrian, MO; which is a new church work just south of Kansas City. email me and I will give you my new address.

Anthony Kelley (wwjdkelley@hotmail.com), September 04, 1999.

Then on October the 11th you told me that you were justified in calling yourself a Pastor because you were a Pastor and elder in your congregation where you preach with these words:

As for my use of the title of Pastor- which you accuse me of using improperly. I am a Pastor and elder within my church and I am the full time preacher. There is nothing unbiblical in my use of the term. So give it up! -- AKelley (wwjdkelley@hotmail.com), October 11, 1999.

Now this indicates that you were appointed as an elder in your new congregation in less that two months. All I have done is question this matter. You completely ignored those questions that I asked you. Either you are assuming an office for yourself or the congregation has appointed you without your being qualified to be an elder according to the teaching of Gods word which I cited before in 1 Timothy 3:1-11; Titus 1:5-9. You also ignored the discussion of those passages.

Then you accuse me of being ignorant of the Greek:

It is very clear that you do not understand your Greek nor the useage of the words.

Brother, I have said nothing in my last post concerning the Greek Language. But if you wish to discuss the Greek words and their meanings and their usage that allows you to leave one congregation and go to another and immediately be appointed as an elder in that place I would be happy to do so. If you will only make your argument on whatever Greek words you think justifies such a procedure. I await your response on that matter. I do read the Greek. In fact that is one of my favorite subjects. There is no more justification for your being an elder in that place in the Greek language than there is in English. So come back to this matter brother Kelley and tell us which Greek words your think justifies you in becoming an elder in a congregation where you have only been a member for less than one month. I would like to see the Greek words that even discuss that matter. I would also like to know how you could be so sure that I do not understand the Greek words concerning the eldership when I have never even discussed them. But I am more than willing to enter that discussion with you Brother Kelley. But I do ask that if we discuss these matters that you at least attempt to deal with my arguments instead of persistently ignoring them.

Then you accuse me of attacking you openly:

The inteaded thread in this room is supposed to be how God works. Instead it is how Lee Staffold can accuse everyone and anyone of being unbiblical. Lee, until you repent of your harsh treatment of me, I will not have any further discussions with you. I have tried to be as loving and kind as I can. Yet, you have openly attacked me repeatedly.

Now I know that the tread is about how God works but you and others have changed it to a discussion of PK and I have responded to your words that you are a Pastor in the church and that such is ok because you are an elder. But then I noticed that you were either not an elder as you claimed or the congregation where you preach does not take the appointment of elders seriously because they appointed you as an elder with in less than two months. And I questioned whether such could be done in harmony with the word of God. You can read the post again to see my argument, which I will not repeat here, because you will only ignore it again. I notice that you claim that I accuse everyone of being unbiblical. Now that is not true brother Kelley. You can read as well as others where I have agreed with others in this forum so I cannot be accused charging everyone of being unbiblical. In fact I have accused no one of being unbiblical those are your words not mine. I have accused you and others of teaching and supporting false doctrine. In fact I have accused you of possibly being untruthful about being appointed as an elder in the church where you preach in such a short period of less than two months after your beginning that new work. You have not given any evidence that you were in fact so appointed nor have you shown from the scriptures that such an appointment would be acceptable to the Lord. I have questioned that matter and such is not an attack on you personally. It is an attack on your doctrine. I have attacked your arguments brother Kelley but the closest I have come to attacking you has been my implication that you have not been truthful about being appointed as an elder in the Church where you have been since September the 4th 1999. I have not treated YOU harshly Brother Kelley but I have treated your fallacious arguments very harshly. I have no need to repent of such unless you can prove that your arguments are true. You do not need to identify yourself so closely with your arguments. In a debate your arguments are going to come under attack. That is the nature and purpose of debate. In fact the scriptures tell us to be ready always to give an answer to EVERY man that asketh a reason of the hope that is in us. If you are not ready to Answer, Brother Kelley, do not make the arguments. You want to argue things that are contrary to Gods word and expect the rest of us Christians to just sit back and ignore your arguments or at least treat them so gently that you are not offended. Brother, when one who belongs to Christ supports false doctrine he OFFENDS the Lord that bought him. It is not wrong for Christians to oppose that brother. I am opposing the things that you teach that are error. If you are truly an elder in the church and if I am teaching falsely you should be able to convict and convince the gainsayer. But instead of answering my arguments you seek as in your previous post to disengage from the debate because you cannot answer the arguments. That makes you angry and you lash out and accuse me of being too harsh with you. This is your appeal for sympathy brother and you will get none from me while you oppose our Lord Jesus Christ and the truth of His word. You may get some from others in this forum that also oppose Christ but you will not get sympathy from those who love the truth.

Then you say these things:

I have tried to be as loving and kind as I can. Yet, you have openly attacked me repeatedly. You have taken this too far. Brother, I love you in the Lord, but I can not and will not stand by and watch my name nor the church being ridiculed.

Now this false attempt at some kind of superior piety will not help you to escape from the responsibility of answering the arguments that have been put to you. You have not shown any more love than anyone else has in this debate. In fact, those who teach and support those who teach doctrines contrary to the word of God are not LOVING. They do not LOVE Christ our Lord for he said,  If ye love me keep my commandments and He said,  why call ye me Lord Lord and do not the things which I say? Luke 6:46. Second, such a one does not LOVE those lost souls who are being deceived into believing a lie through the false doctrine that they support. Third, you cannot be very LOVING toward me if you sincerely believe that I am in error and you just want to escape from the discussion and not even attempt to answer my questions which I have asked. If you do nothing to correct me but complain that I have been so UNLOVING to you then how can you say you have tried to be loving. No brother this so  called superior piety that you try to dress yourself up in will not work. True love will seek the others highest well being. You will not leave me in nor would you lead me into error if you had tried to show genuine Christian LOVE toward me.

God does not respect this kind of false piety Brother Kelley. He has ordered us to reprove, and exhort with all longsuffering and teaching. This you have failed to even attempt to do but you have TRIED TO BE LOVING. Such sanctimoniousness is pathetic! Do away with such false sentimentality. Teach me the truth and spare no strong words that are needed to convince me. Prick my heart with the truth of God! Charge me before the Lord to repent and ask for Gods mercy. Preach the word of God to me I am not afraid of harsh words that lead me to the precious truth of God. I do not need to be handled with KID GLOVES. I do not need your syrupy" false piety and sentimentality. I need and seek THE TRUTH AT ANY PRICE THAT SETS ME FREE. So do not worry Brother Kelley about speaking harshly to me. Be as harsh as you like but speak the TRUTH to me. Do not whisper sweetly false words in pusedo-kindness and fained love! Give me the truth as harsh as you would like but give me truth. Now when the scriptures tell us to speak the truth in love it is not speaking of your fained piety and artificial sentimentality. It is talking about the love that would prompt one to speak the truth with love as the motive not the manner. Love that would cause you to speak the truth even when you know that it will sometimes be painful and even dangerous to your life to speak it. But speak it because you love.

Then you complain:

Brother, I love you in the Lord, but I can not and will not stand by and watch my name nor the church being ridiculed.

Whether you love me in the Lord or not depends on whether you teach the truth of the gospel. For no one who is trying to lead me astray from the truth can genuinely love me. I have not ridiculed your name or the Church of which you are a member. I have ridiculed your doctrine and the practice of your local congregation, if they in fact appointed you as an elder so quickly just so they could scripturally call you a pastor. Your name I have referred to with respect. Your local congregation as such I have not referred to at all. But the practice of the your congregation where you preach I have questioned and you have not answered. So do not try to make this appear that I have ridiculed any thing other than your arguments and the practice of the congregation where you preach, if in fact they have really appointed you as an elder in the church. I do not know that such is the truth. I find it hard to believe that a congregation of the Lords people treat the appointment of their elders with such lack of concern for the word of God and the qualifications of one who would hold such a responsible position. You can be assured that the Holy Spirit does not take this matter lightly. (Acts 20:28).

So enough has been said for the moment. But, Brother Kelley, come back to deal with the arguments. They are not petty. The truth is important. You only think they are petty because you cannot or will not answer them. But I would like to discuss these Greek words that authorize you to be appointed by your congregation as an elder only less that one month after your arrival in that city. I am interested in what words you are talking about. I am prepared to discuss the Greek language with you as you wish. I am not even a local preacher. I am a Christian and a member of the body of Christ. I work in the telecommunications business and therefore have far less time than most to engage in these discussions but I do so because I must follow after the truth and contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints. I have that responsibility as a Christian. I will not stop just because of your false accusations of my being unkind and harsh to you.

I pray fervently for you Brother Kelley.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 24, 1999

Brother Kelley:

You have not even touched the Documentation that the Pk organization is teaching false doctrine. I asked you, and you have not answered, if the following quotation from an official PK source is true or false doctrine. You have not answered it at all and anyone with the slightest ability to read can see that you have ignored it. So here it is again:

"But I know that you want us to quote from and official promise keeper source. The fact that you have witnessed this yourself and told us about it did not convince you. Therefore I will quote for you from a book entitled  SEVEN PROMISES OF A PROMISE KEEPER Published by Focus on the Family Publishing. Promise Keepers with Bill Bright, Edwin Cole, Dr. James Dobson, Tony Evans, Bill McCartney, Luis Palau, Randy Phillips, and Gary Smalley as contributing editors copyrighted it in 1994. This is a book that most assuredly has the approval of the PK ORGANIZATION for they have the copyright and there is an introduction by Randy Phillips who is the President of Promise Keepers. In his introduction to this book, Randy Phillips, the President of Promise Keepers, ask and answers the question,  ARE YOU SURE YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN? Then, in answer to this question he writes the following, which I now quote in full so that you can have all the documentation that you need about this matter. He writes the following: "ARE YOU SURE YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN?  You need to do five things to become a part of Gods family. If you have not already done these, I urge you, if you are sincerely ready, to do them now: 1. Admit your spiritual need.  I am a sinner. 2. Repent. Be willing to turn from your sin, and with Gods help, start living to please him. 3. Believe that Jesus Christ died for you on the cross and Rose again. 4. Receive, through prayer, Jesus Christ into your heart and life. Pray something like this from the sincerity of your heart: Dear lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner. I believe that you died for my sins and then rose from the grave. Right now, I turn from my sins and open the door of my life. I receive You as my personal Lord and Savior. Thank you for saving me. 5. Then tell a believing friend and a pastor about your commitment." From Seven Promises of a Promise Keeper Copy Wright 1994 by Promise Keepers. Introduction by Randy Phillips, Page 10.

Now here in this documented evidence Randy Phillips tells people how to become a member of Gods family and he deliberately leaves out the subject of Baptism. Is it true Brother Kelley that one can become a member of the family of God without being born of water and the Spirit in baptism? (John 3:3-5)? Now you have not answered this question and I have read and reread your post and have not seen an answer yet. Mr. Phillips tells these people to Admit that they are sinners, repent, believe in Jesus, receive through prayer Jesus Christ into their heart and Life, then to pray the sinners prayer which ends by thanking the Lord for saving them. They are told to thank the lord for saving them at the end of the prayer. That have not followed the lords words, he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: but they are told to thank the Lord for saving them though they have not been born again according to John 3:3-5 of water and the spirit. Is this teaching the truth, Brother Kelley? I have read all of your previous post but you HAVE NOT answered these things. So your pretending that you have dealt with this documentation is deceptive. It is not the truth. Now stand up like a man and answer these questions. Is this documented teaching of the PK organization true or is it false? You have not dealt with the words found in the documented evidence that has been presented to you. We still wait for you to deal with the DOCUMENTED evidence that was presented and to answer our questions about it. Pretending that your general comments in support of Pk is an anawer amounts to nothing more than a clever ploy to avoid the truth. In spite of the above evidence of blatant false teaching of the PK organization you proudly tell us:

It is my desire to state here that I will continue to attend PK rallies, and even encourage others to do the same.

Now you continue to want to support those teaching these false doctrines and false gospel regardless. We can see in this fact alone that you are not qualified to be an elder in your local congregation. The PK organization is teaching people that they can be saved by faith and repeating the sinners prayer without obeying the gospel of Christ in baptism. You proudly support this false doctrine for you have as yet not said anything in reference to this documented evidence that they do teach these things. You will give an account to our Lord for these things Brother Kelley. You surely will and I urge you to openly repent as you promised to do if you were given documented proof of the pk organization teaching false doctrine. This is not just a matter of their being weak on baptism. This is a matter of their teaching that people can be saved from their sins completely WITHOUT being baptized into Christ.

Then you accuse me of ignoring the scriptures:

Brother, I have been the only one quoting the scriptures in this debate with you. You have not mention a single scripture but you tell me this:

You are right that I do not like to debate you- not that you are right and I am wrong. NO- but that you tend to be very legalistic and disregard anyone's view or what the scripture truly says.

I appreciate your agreement that you do not like to debate me. I am sure that it is not pleasant to be in the position of having the truth brought to light and it being so clear that you are against Christ in this matter. You accuse me of being legalistic but you offer no example or specific instance that would prove that I am legalistic. This is just your way of further justifying your avoidance of the arguments that show that you are teaching and supporting false doctrine. If I were debating in favor of PK, and I had someone in the position that you are currently in, you would be cheering me on. But since you are on the receiving end of these things you falsely accuse me of being legalistic without even one shred of evidence to prove that the charge is true. You have a bad habit of asserting without proof. You do not mind asking others to offer proof and when it is given you run away and hide from it but you can charge legalism and other things without proof and that is ok?

Now you tell us your real issue:

Where I take real issue is that you feel that you are absolutely right and every pro-PK is dead wrong.

Well brother Kelley, we have not seen you admit that anyone who is against PK is right have we? Did I miss that anywhere? Can you show me where you admit that those of us who are against PK were right? Does it follow then that you FEEL that you are absolutely right and every anti-PK is dead wrong? I have at least offered evidence to show that those who support PK are in fact dead wrong in doing so. Now I am willing to admit that they are right if anyone will just offer clear evidence from the scriptures that they are. You have not even attempted to do that Brother Kelley. And you have even ignored the documented evidence that proves you and the others to be supporting the PK organization that clearly is teaching a different gospel than the gospel of Christ. And they are teaching false doctrine in that they teach that a person can be saved without being born of water and the spirit. Now we both contend we are right, Brother Kelley. The only difference is that I have given evidence to support that what I have said about PK is true and you have offered none and answered none of the arguments. They are still there waiting for your answer. You do not like debating with me because I will not just let you walk away from the facts. I insist that you face them. I know that such is not pleasant and it is not pleasant for me to have to be the one to call you to face the evidence that you called for. But I do it because I care. I do have other things, that I could be doing but I have given this matter a high priority because I do care that we walk in the truth and PK is not walking in the truth, which I have documented, and you have ignored.

Then you say:

Perhaps there needs to be humility on your part.

Now you say perhaps I should be humble. Are you not sure? I believe that there is no question that we both should be humble. But humility simply means that I should be willing to correct myself if I am shown from the word of God to be in error. I have said and I repeat that if you can show from the word of God that the teaching that I have quoted in the documented evidence concerning PK is the truth that I will admit it and support it myself and ask forgiveness of all. You however have not offered any evidence nor have you dealt with the documented evidence that has been presented to you. And you resist the truth in this matter, but you are humble? Read all of the places where Paul contended for the faith and listen to his manner of speech. Read how he withstood Peter to the face because he walked not uprightly according to the gospel. Then tell me, were they humble? I am sure that they were but humility does not require us to lay down and shirk our responsibility to contend earnestly for the faith. That is what I am doing. And those who resist the truth are not humble even if they enter the house of God with their heads bowed. And even if they whisper in a quiet voice and shed tears as they whine about how much they love others while all along they bring the fatal poison of lies that condemns the souls of their brothers. This is not the first time a wolf has donned sheeps clothing and it will not be the last. Your wrapping yourself in the sheeps wool has not fooled any of us Brother Kelley.

Now I do not agree with you when you say that not every denomination is wrong. Brother, the very idea of denominationalism is wrong and all involved in such are wrong. 1 Cor. 1:10. And it does not matter if they call themselves Christian Church or Church of Christ" while being sectarian in spirit. We must unite with Christ in obedience to the gospel first and in the process of being united with Christ we will be united with each other. The measure of difference between any of is exactly proportional to our difference from Christ. If we all were in harmony and agreement with Christ we would be in perfect harmony with each other.

Now brother Kelley, You have not dealt with these matters and pretense will not help you. All can read and see that you have deliberately refused to answer the documented evidence that we have presented that shows that PK is teaching false doctrine. Deal with the evidence presented. Tell us was Mr. Phillips teaching the truth in the words that we quoted from him?

We still await your answer or your repentance, which you promised and have yet to keep that promise.

I pray for you brother,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 25, 1999

Lee, I sent you an email. Please read it. As far as calling me a wolf in sheep's clothing... whatever! You are right in the fact that Pk does not go all the way at times. I HAVE SAID THIS! And they do present a Biblical way of coming to the Lord for salvation until the Baptism issue- but like I said... they DO teach that a person needs to be baptized! It is documented right in the seven promises. I am not a Pk defender. You are trying to put me in a corner that should not be there. If you think I am so wrong then why call me "brother"?

-- Anonymous, October 25, 1999

Brother Kelley:

I now quote your words and respond accordingly:

Lee, I sent you an email. Please read it. As far as calling me a wolf in sheep's clothing... whatever! You are right in the fact that Pk does not go all the way at times. I HAVE SAID THIS! And they do present a Biblical way of coming to the Lord for salvation until the Baptism issue- but like I said... they DO teach that a person needs to be baptized! It is documented right in the seven promises. I am not a Pk defender. You are trying to put me in a corner that should not be there. If you think I am so wrong then why call me "brother"? I will read your e-mail when I get home from work. I have no apology for calling you a wolf in sheeps clothing because that is how the scriptures describe those who teach false doctrine. I have shown that you are teaching that which is false and your only response has been to wrap yourself in the sheeps attire of kindness and love. I have exposed the fact that Pk is not teaching the truth about how to become a member of Gods family with documented evidence that you have failed to discuss.

You then say that I am right that they do not go all the way at times:

You are right in the fact that Pk does not go all the way at times.

I have shown that they are going a different way and that they have gone all the way down that opposite road. I have not said that they do not go all the way at times. So why do you say that I am right in saying something that I have never said?

But you tell us that they do present a Biblical way of coming to the Lord for salvation until the Baptism issue:

And they do present a Biblical way of coming to the Lord for salvation until the Baptism issue

Brother, if they leave out the command of the Lord to be immersed (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 1 Peter 3; 21) they are not presenting a Biblical way to come to the Lord. But rather a false and deceptive way of believing that they have been saved without obeying the gospel of our Lord. (2 Thess 1: 7-9; 1 Cor. 15:1-4; Romans 1:16; Romans 6:3- 6). You are contributing to that deception! You say that they do present a Biblical way of coming to the Lord. Is the following documented evidence an example of what you would call a Biblical way of coming to the Lord?

Therefore I will quote for you from a book entitled  SEVEN PROMISES OF A PROMISE KEEPER Published by Focus on the Family Publishing. Promise Keepers with Bill Bright, Edwin Cole, Dr. James Dobson, Tony Evans, Bill McCartney, Luis Palau, Randy Phillips, and Gary Smalley as contributing editors copyrighted it in 1994. This is a book that most assuredly has the approval of the PK ORGANIZATION for they have the copyright and there is an introduction by Randy Phillips who is the President of Promise Keepers. In his introduction to this book, Randy Phillips, the President of Promise Keepers, ask and answers the question,  ARE YOU SURE YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN? Then, in answer to this question he writes the following, which I now quote in full so that you can have all the documentation that you need about this matter. He writes the following: "ARE YOU SURE YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN?  You need to do five things to become a part of Gods family. If you have not already done these, I urge you, if you are sincerely ready, to do them now: 1. Admit your spiritual need.  I am a sinner. 2. Repent. Be willing to turn from your sin, and with Gods help, start living to please him. 3. Believe that Jesus Christ died for you on the cross and Rose again. 4. Receive, through prayer, Jesus Christ into your heart and life. Pray something like this from the sincerity of your heart: Dear lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner. I believe that you died for my sins and then rose from the grave. Right now, I turn from my sins and open the door of my life. I receive You as my personal Lord and Savior. Thank you for saving me. 5. Then tell a believing friend and a pastor about your commitment." From Seven Promises of a Promise Keeper Copy Wright 1994 by Promise Keepers. Introduction by Randy Phillips, Page 10.

Now is this above quote the truth about how one comes to the Lord for salvation? I have shown that it is not; but you have not answered that question unless this is what you were referring to when you said that they do teach a Biblical way of coming to the Lord. Is this above documented quote Biblical and true?

Then you say that they do teach a person to be baptized:

they DO teach that a person needs to be baptized! It is documented right in the seven promises.

Brother the documented evidence that I have quoted to you over and over again does not teach people to be baptized in order to be saved as our Lord taught,  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: (Mark 16:16). This quote that I have given is from the official PK source detailing what they mean by their so-called seven promises that you mention. In the above quote they teach that a person can be saved simply by believing, repenting, accepting Jesus into their heart and Life and praying the sinners prayer which ends by thanking the Lord for saving them. Is this the way they teach that a person NEEDS to be baptized? I have shown that most of the denominations teach baptism but they do not teach the truth about baptism. So just because they quote Matthew 28:19,20 in their seven promises does not mean that they teach that one must be baptized to have their sins washed away (Acts 22:16) and that one must be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). Which means that they do not teach the truth about baptism. In fact when they were telling folks how to get into the family of God in the above quoted documentation they completely ignored and intentionally LEFT OUT Baptism. Now this is the truth about their teachings. Their doctrine is completely false on this matter and your agreement with this false doctrine shows that you are also teaching false doctrine hence the designation of a wolf in sheeps clothing.

Then you say that I am trying to put you in a corner with these words:

You are trying to put me in a corner that should not be there.

Now brother, by your own efforts you are already in the corner and I have been the one that has pointed out that you should not be there. But you want to stay in the PK corner as you have said. You are there by your own free choice and I have been telling you that you should not be there but you are there. If you do not like that corner then come out of it but as long as you support the PK organization that is in fact teaching false doctrine you will remain in their corner which I can see is not very comfortable to you. So I urge you brother to get out of the PK corner and come over into the corner of truth and support the preaching of the gospel of Christ rather than the PK perversion of it.

Then you asked me why I call you brother if I think you are so wrong:

If you think I am so wrong then why call me "brother"?

Now I have been assuming that the Christian Church does teach the truth about the gospel of Christ and what one must do to become a Christian and enter the family of God. Based upon that assumption, I gather that you have been born of the water and the Spirit (John 3:3-6) and that you believed (John 3:16) repented (Acts 3:19) confessed Christ (Matthew 10:32-34; Romans 10:10) and that you were Baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, that is by their authority and in harmony with Their teaching (Matthew 28:19, 20; Mark 16:16; John 3:3-5; Titus 3:3-5; Eph. 5:26; Heb. 10:22; Acts 2:38; Gal 3:26,27; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21). Now anyone who has been obedient to the gospel as described in the word of God is in the family of God and is therefore a brother or sister to all others in that kingdom regardless of how much error they may later become involved in. As Paul clearly taught us,  And if any man obeyeth not our word by this epistle, note that man, that ye have no company with him, to the end that he may be ashamed. And yet count him not as an enemy, but ADMONISH HIM AS A BROTHER. (2 Thess. 3:14,15.). Therefore I do not count you as an enemy but I am admonishing you as a brother. I therefore call you brother in obedience to this teaching from Gods eternal word. But also do not forget that it was you who requested the very treatment you have received from me on this matter. I will quote your request as follows:

Over and over- I have pleaded with you and others to prove it to me. But, you have not. I will openly repent if you show me. If you truly care for me as a brother in Christ as you say- then site not my words but documentation.

Now, I truly care for you as a brother and in response to your request I have provided the documentation that you sought yet now, not only do you ignore the documentation that was provided but you complain that I call you brother. All this after you appealed for this information on the basis of our concern for you as a brother? Make up your mind! Do you want this brotherly concern or not? You will receive it whether you want it or not. But do not pretend that we do not care for you as a brother because we have not provided the documentation that you requested and then after receiving your requested documentation from us- because we do care for you- complain that we call you brother. But do not misunderstand. Those who have not been born of water and the Spirit are not in the kingdom of God and are not in Christ Jesus and are thus lost and yet in their sins. They are not my brothers in Christ because they are not in Christ. I will not have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness for what fellowship hath darkness with light. 1 John 1:7-9 shows the basis on which we can have fellowship with one another. Reading it would do you good.

I have strongly opposed you on this important issue, brother Kelley, but I do so because I care not only for you but also for those who have never heard the gospel of Christ. I pray that they will hear the truth of how to become a member of Gods family when they have chosen to seek Christ our Lord. I do not want them to be deceived into thinking that they have obtained the forgiveness of sins, and are members of the family of God when in fact they have never obeyed the gospel of Christ and are yet lost and without hope in this world. I care also for the cause of Christ and the faith that he has once for all delivered to us (Jude 3).

I do continue to pray fervently for you Brother Kelley. I can see that the truth that I have presented has bitten your pride and that you feel offended by it. I may not have the Excellency of speech or the skill to craft smooth words and fair speeches. I may not be able to provide the scratching that you require for your itching ears but I have told you the truth! Have I become your enemy because I tell you the truth? I am not your enemy; I am your Brother. I have not told you soothing, smooth, comfortable lies that are pleasant to the ears though devastating to the soul. In fact those fair speeches filled with lies as the above quoted documentation substantiates, are destructive of the souls of men. If you continue to prefer those lies and love them more than truth you will be in danger of receiving a strong delusion. For Paul by inspiration said,  And with all deceit of unrighteousness for them that perish; because they RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH, that they might be saved. And FOR THIS CAUSE God sendeth them a WORKING OF ERROR, that they should BELIEVE A LIE: that they all might be judged who BELIEVED NOT THE TRUTH, but HAD PLEASURE in unrighteousness. (2 Thess. 2:10-12.).

So I have warned you Brother and will continue to admonish you to walk in the truth.

I pray for you, Brother Kelley.

Your brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 25, 1999

Yada, yada, yada!

-- Anonymous, October 25, 1999

Lee, As far as I am concerned- this is over. I will not answer any of your post- no matter how off the wall. I will not be a party any longer to this. I have tried to reason with you... but all you are concerned with is to discredit anyone you believes different than you. You have not present the truth in love- but only half truths. I feel sorry for you... for you are blind to any true biblical response- you see what you only want to see. One last word... it is over!

-- Anonymous, October 25, 1999

Brother Kelley:

I have received your one last word which I suppose was a parting shot as you retreat for lack of willingness to fact the truth and the facts as they have been presented to you. I will now quote your words with a response as follows:

Lee, As far as I am concerned- this is over. I will not answer any of your post- no matter how off the wall. I will not be a party any longer to this. I have tried to reason with you... but all you are concerned with is to discredit anyone you believes different than you. You have not present the truth in love- but only half truths. I feel sorry for you... for you are blind to any true biblical response- you see what you only want to see. One last word... it is over!

You tell us that this is over as far as you are concerned. I am sure that such is true but unfortunately it is not over as far as our Lord Jesus Christ is concerned. As Paul told Titus,  there are many unruly men, vain talkers, and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped; Titus 1:10. Of these same men he told Titus to, reprove them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men WHO TURN AWAY FROM THE TRUTH. Titus 1:13,14. So it is clear from your words and in harmony with the teaching of the scriptures that you mouth has been stopped on this issue and that because you have been sharply rebuked according to the scriptures.

You falsely claim to have tried to reason:

I have tried to reason with you... but all you are concerned with is to discredit anyone you believes different than you

We have repeatedly offered evidence from the word of God and documentation from official PK sources that the PK organization is teaching false doctrine. You on the other hand have not quoted any scripture to establish any of your assertions. You have also ignored the evidence that has been presented to you. This is not trying to reason with us.

You assert without proving the following:

You have not present the truth in love- but only half truths.

Now if this is true where is your evidence that proves such to be true. I have nothing here but mere assertion without any documented evidence as you required us to find to verify the truthfulness of our claims that PK is teaching false doctrine. You see, brother, you require others to PROVE their assertions but you only want to assert without proof. A debate does not work that way brother Kelley as you have surely found out by now.

Then you tell me that you feel sorry for me as follows:

I feel sorry for you... for you are blind to any true biblical response- you see what you only want to see.

Now Brother Kelley, you have not even attempted to give a Biblical response. Read you post over again and count the number of times wherein you referred to the Holy Scriptures in your responses to me. You can do it on one hand! Now if I am in error Biblically one could not tell it from your responses to me. Then you say I only see what I want to see. I am sure that our readers can tell who fits this description. I do not need your false pity any more that your previous attempts at false piety. They are nothing more than a continual effort to mislead the innocent. It will not work in this forum brother Kelley.

If you want to teach us false doctrine you must you must become more skillful. Your performance thus far has been pathetic.

Well since you have decided to run and hide all I can say is that I do still pray for you.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 25, 1999

Brother Combs:

I read your last post which I now quote:

"Yada, yada, yada!"

-- Darrell Combs (darrell@csfpa.com), October 25, 1999.

Are you studdering or are you trying to say something that you are afraid to say in plain English for all to see and understand? If you wish to enter the discussion do not be so timid. Just jump right in and say what you have to say. Such tactics as this from those who talk so much about "respect" and "Kindness" and "love". I wonder how long you would last before you begin to beg for "kindness" and "love" and "respect" for one another.

Some of us believe that these discussions are important. Some, such as yourself, only believe that their discussions are important. If you were in a debate with someone in a public forum and a grown man stood up in the middle of the debate muttering some rediculous jiberish as you have interjected in this discussion would you consider such a person intelligent? Would you consider such a one as being respectful to both parties? Would you consider such a one to be demonstrating proper dignity and Christian concern for those in dispute? Just thought I would ask in case you are sometimes upset because someone has said a few unkind words toward you and you decide to condemn that person for not being "loving". When you do I will bring your "nonwords" to your rememberance.

If you wich to continue where Brother Kelley left off you are welcome but do not begin crying that you do not like my style and that I am disrespectful and unkind and unloving. OK?

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 25, 1999

As I said before, yada, yada, yada!

Safford, you really need to lighten up some. It was very amusing to read your recent diatribe from the first time I posted the above. IT WAS A JOKE! Since I posted the yadas the first time, I have received no less than 10 direct e-mails from folks who got it and understood what it was all about  sorry you didn't.

But I am even more sorry for the way you read into what I said. So, I will clear it up for you.

 No, I do not stutter, and I am not afraid to say anything in plain English. I have been active on this b/b from the first day it was established, and have contributed a number of times in plain English.

 Rest assured it would be a cold day in PA before I would beg for kindness, love, respect or anything else from you.

 In case you havent noticed, I too believe these threads are important, and do not believe only my discussions are important. Where you got that from  well, only you would know.

 As for stating something in a public forum debate, yeah, I might have, after listening to the same thing going on and on and on and on. It would be my choice  sorry it dissed you. Again, IT WAS A JOKE!

 I have no doubt you would bring my nonwords to my remembrance. You have certainly mastered the art of cut-and-paste. Dont worry, I remember what I say, and dont need to be reminded.

 No, I do not wish to continue where Brother Kelley left off. I may or may not agree with him, but he certainly carried himself in a manner worthy of Christ. He did fine for himself.

No Safford, I dont believe I will take any more time in these discussions with you. Discussions with others are effective, but in this case, this will be my last communication with you. Now, you go ahead, cut-and-paste this response to your hearts content, and say whatever else you wish to read into my words. Be my guest.

And remember  IT WAS A JOKE!

Darrell H Combs

-- Anonymous, October 25, 1999

Brother Combs:

I can see that you were joking. I can also see that your intent was to use this joke as a veiled attempt at an insult. You want all of us to lighten up and not be so serious about these matters. Well, we do not need to light up we need to tighten up and take the word of God and the issues that invole the salvation of the souls of men seriously. The sacrifice of Christ and the Gospel of Christ and fighting against all perversions of the gospel are not joking matters. You do not have to like me, brother Combs. In fact I can understand. Not everyone will like me and not always without good reason. But we must care for the souls of those who have been taught that they can be saved just by believing in Christ, repenting and repeating the sinners prayer. For none can be saved in that way. Those who have been deceived into believing that lie will lose their immortal souls. This is not a laughing matter. I was debating with Brother Kelley who openly supports that false doctrine that is being taught by the Pk organization. He repeatedly refused to deal with the documentation that was given in evidence that PK is teaching that doctrine. This necessitated a repeat of the argument that had been neglected over and over again. I am sure that such was boring to you but the defense of the truth is not a Joke. And those who would rather joke when men are losing their souls by following false doctrine just do not understand the nature of the spiritual battle that is now raging and will rage until our Lord returns. When he returns their will be no joke told on that day. In reference to your jesting I urge you to read the following passage that places foolish talking and Jesting in the same category with other sins against our God. I leave it as a response to all those who like to use jokes in this forum to lighten up and avoid the seriousness of a world that is lost without Christ and without Hope. They are dying and we are joking about it. It is a shame for sure!

Here is the teaching of the word of God about Jesting:

Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor FOOLISH TALKING, nor JESTING, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them. For ye were sometimes darkness, but now [are ye] light in the Lord: walk as children of light: For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove [them]. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord [is]. Ephesians 5:1-17.

I have appreciated some of your post that I have read in this forum and the work that you do as a campus minister and I do pray that our Lord will grant you great wisdom and bless you to do the work you are so dedicated to doing. I do respect you for your works sake.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 26, 1999

Mr Saffold, This is NO way a sarcastic remark on my part so that is in plain English..please read nothing more into this than what I'm about to ask......I see that in many of your responses that you say that you'll continue to pray for all these wayward thinking christians.....so I'm beginning to wonder....with all that prayer time your are committing an investment to, how do you have the time to respond at such great lengths to all these threads?!?!?! If I am to take you as the man of integrity that you say you are ( & I'm NOT saying that you aren't) I would think that you would spend more time on your knees (maybe even prostrate from the way you have accused these folks of falsely handling the Word) that your love for them would be more gentile even in your worded protests. LOVE after all, does cover a multitude of sins. I seriously wonder if any of these folks actually BELIEVE you when you say that you are praying for them. And of course I may be wrong in this matter all together..& if I am I'm SURE that you'll have me "standed corrected". Maybe "lighten-up" wasn't totally accurate for you...could it possibly be "soften-up" my brother? WE ARE IN THE SAME 'BUSINESS"! winning the lost & exhorting 1 another in LOVE!!!!! Friend in the Faith, Kathy C. ><>

-- Anonymous, October 26, 1999

For the record to anyone reading this. The bible says that one cannot be saved unless you beleive (Mark 16:16), repent (Acts 2:38) and be immersed to live a faithful life for the Lord. I do beleive as I always have that there is much error with someone who does not teach baptism. I do not teach false doctrine as Lee Staffold proclaims. The fact that I attend PK is NOT that I embrase their teachings (which are NOT totally false), but that much good can come from a PK event. Jesus ate with sinners and tax collectors and was friends with protestitutes. He one them over with love. If we are to teach the way of truth handed down by the Apostles- then we must do it with much prayer and diligence. I can worship in PK events along with Baptist, AG's, etc. not because I embrase their doctine- but that we both want the same thing a closer relationship with Christ. I have been exposed to tremdous opportunities to "witness" in the meetings and to share my experiences and my beliefs.

Lee, if you cut and paste me- I will not respond.

-- Anonymous, October 26, 1999

Kathy:

I appreciate your remarks and I so not consider them sarcastic. I do always end my post with a prayer for the one to whom I write it and I also pray for them by name regularly. If you will notice by checking the number of people that I have said those things to in this forum you will find that it is not a very large number. Therefore one would have little trouble in offering such prayers without having to be on his knees for a long period of time. This fact leaves plenty of time for writing a response to these threads. SO there is no need for you to wonder how I am able to accomplish these things. It is true that I write at early hours and later hours and sometimes when I have a break from activity at work so by giving this forum a priority and scheduling time to do these things it is not really too hard to do. I appreciate your concern for my integrity and hope that you will always have similar concern for the integrity of anyone who would write concerning the gospel of Christ. Though I have never said anything about my own integrity as you claim, I welcome your questioning of my integrity. And should you find that I am lacking in integrity I would appreciate your bringing it to my attention so that I can correct it for my eternal soul would be at stake in such a case. That is the very reason that I question the integrity of those who support the false teaching that is being preached among the PK organization. I urge you to question their integrity as well as mine. If any of us were lacking in this area I would hope that you have the courage and the will to call upon us to repent and become men of integrity. At the moment I believe that my integrity is intact and will follow your encouragement to keep it that way. Please keep a close eye on me. And if you perceive that I have failed please admonish me. I would greatly appreciate your caring that much for the salvation of my soul. I also encourage you to do the same when you hear someone that is teaching false doctrine for any gospel other than the gospel of Christ does not have integrity. Those who teach such and support those who do so also cannot have true integrity.

Mr Saffold, This is NO way a sarcastic remark on my part so that is in plain English..please read nothing more into this than what I'm about to ask......I see that in many of your responses that you say that you'll continue to pray for all these wayward thinking christians.....so I'm beginning to wonder....with all that prayer time your are committing an investment to, how do you have the time to respond at such great lengths to all these threads?!?!?! If I am to take you as the man of integrity that you say you are ( & I'm NOT saying that you aren't) I would think that you would spend more time on your knees (maybe even prostrate from the way you have accused these folks of falsely handling the Word) that your love for them would be more gentile even in your worded protests. LOVE after all, does cover a multitude of sins. I seriously wonder if any of these folks actually BELIEVE you when you say that you are praying for them. And of course I may be wrong in this matter all together..& if I am I'm SURE that you'll have me "standed corrected". Maybe "lighten- up" wasn't totally accurate for you...could it possibly be "soften- up" my brother? WE ARE IN THE SAME 'BUSINESS"! winning the lost & exhorting 1 another in LOVE!!!!! Friend in the Faith, Kathy C. ><>

-- Kathy Combs (Odedme@yourinter.net), October 26, 1999.

I would think that you would spend more time on your knees (maybe even prostrate from the way you have accused these folks of falsely handling the Word) that your love for them would be more gentile even in your worded protests.

I have not accused these folks of falsely handling the word of God. Rather I have accused them of teaching doctrines that are contrary to the word of God and in some cases of supporting those who are teaching doctrine contrary to the word of God. They do this by many different methods and falsely handling the word of God is only one of their techniques. I have not only accused them of such I have actually proven such to be the case and no one, not even those to whom I leveled the charge has answered the evidence that has been presented. It is not wrong to confront those who do such things. In fact it is a Christian duty to do it. Those who sit idly by while false doctrine is being promulgated and support it with silent acquiescence are failing in their Christian obligations. We are told not to give Godspeed to those who teach a doctrine other than the doctrine of Christ (2John 9-11). We are told to contend earnestly for the faith once for all delivered to the saints. (Jude 3). Now the following teaching, given by Randy Phillips in the PK book, which I now quote, is teaching false doctrine. Those who support this doctrine are giving Godspeed to this false teacher. I now quote his words, which are clearly false, as I have proven in my other post:

Therefore I will quote for you from a book entitled  SEVEN PROMISES OF A PROMISE KEEPER Published by Focus on the Family Publishing. Promise Keepers with Bill Bright, Edwin Cole, Dr. James Dobson, Tony Evans, Bill McCartney, Luis Palau, Randy Phillips, and Gary Smalley as contributing editors copyrighted it in 1994. This is a book that most assuredly has the approval of the PK ORGANIZATION for they have the copyright and there is an introduction by Randy Phillips who is the President of Promise Keepers. In his introduction to this book, Randy Phillips, the President of Promise Keepers, ask and answers the question,  ARE YOU SURE YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN? Then, in answer to this question he writes the following, which I now quote in full so that you can have all the documentation that you need about this matter. He writes the following: "ARE YOU SURE YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN?  You need to do five things to become a part of Gods family. If you have not already done these, I urge you, if you are sincerely ready, to do them now: 1. Admit your spiritual need.  I am a sinner. 2. Repent. Be willing to turn from your sin, and with Gods help, start living to please him. 3. Believe that Jesus Christ died for you on the cross and Rose again. 4. Receive, through prayer, Jesus Christ into your heart and life. Pray something like this from the sincerity of your heart: Dear lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner. I believe that you died for my sins and then rose from the grave. Right now, I turn from my sins and open the door of my life. I receive You as my personal Lord and Savior. Thank you for saving me. 5. Then tell a believing friend and a pastor about your commitment." From Seven Promises of a Promise Keeper Copy Wright 1994 by Promise Keepers. Introduction by Randy Phillips, Page 10.

I then asked the following questions:

Now is this above quote the truth about how one comes to the Lord for salvation? I have shown that it is not; but you have not answered that question unless this is what you were referring to when you said that they do teach a Biblical way of coming to the Lord. Is this above documented quote Biblical and true?

I did not receive from the one that I was writing to an answer to these questions. I have not heard anyone else comment on whether they believe this doctrine to be true. I have shown that the above quoted doctrine of PK organization to be absolutely false and out of harmony with the word of God. Now doing this was not wrong; it was right. The scriptures even teach us to reprove sharply those who teach such things.(Titus 1:13). I have done just that. Now I will repent of this sharp reproof if anyone can show that the above doctrine is the truth and that I am wrong in my contention that it is false. But no one has even attempted to show that this doctrine is true. Instead they only complain that the reproof is sharp and say nothing about the fact that it is CORRECT. But the word of God tells us that the reproof is to be sharp and the argument is to be correct.

I understand what you are saying when you say that my love should be gentile. My love for those innocent souls who are being lead away from our Lord and savior, who is the only one that can save them, is deep, gentile, and sincere. But my love for those who are teaching false doctrine is seen in my taking the time to be involved in the unpleasant process of contending with them to the face about it and my sharp reproof of their refusal to turn from their error.

The one thing that I notice is everyone wants to talk about my manner and my methods and my tone etc. This is fair and reasonable. But they would have more effect with me on that score if they would first deal with the arguments. Either admit that this doctrine that I am resisting is false and then condemn me for being unloving and because of such I am failing in my effect. Or defend that doctrine as being in fact true and condemn me for teaching false doctrine myself and doing so with an unloving spirit. But to focus on my attitude without ever saying anything about the arguments I have made against this false doctrine is seen by me as nothing more that an effort to avoid the facts and evade the truth. I do hope that you can understand these things.

Now I do not disagree that at all times we should guard ourselves from hatred and bigotry. But a strong contention for the truth is neither of these. Our Lord, the apostles, and many Christians of the first century contended in this kind of debate. If you would like for me to write a dissertation to prove this point I will be happy to do so but for those who read the scriptures know that what I have just told you is true. A false sense of piety is nothing more than hypocrisy and is used by those who with fair words and smooth speeches lead many astray from the truth.

Is it not a good question to ask, How can we reprove someone sharply and at the same time appear to be speaking to them softly, and gently? Now anyone who thinks that they can contend for the faith without being contentious in the process of doing so just does not know the meaning of the two words contend and contentious.

My purpose is to contend for the faith. This will cause me to argue with those that oppose the truth that is found in Gods word. This does not mean that I can never be wrong. But it does mean that one who would show me that I am in error must prove from the word of God that such is the case. I do not mind being accused of teaching error if the person who accuses me offers a reason for the accusation. For then I will either answer his argument or accept it and repent and go on trying to stand for truth. Notice that those whom I have accused of teaching false doctrine are more concerned with the accusation than the arguments that I have offered to support that accusation.

I do have time to pray for you Sister Combs. I thank God for you and pray that you will always walk in the truth and that our Lord will abide with you and bountifully bless your family. I have already said that prayer before I wrote it and I will repeat it to our Lord often. I have the time and it is not impossible for me to do this at all. In fact I do a lot of the Praying that I mention at the end of my post during and immediately following the writing of them.

I do not quite understand your complaint. You want me to be gentle and soft yet you complain that I offer to pray for everyone that I write a post to in this forum and imply that such an offer is insincere because you do not think I have the time to do it. Is not a prayer for my opponents a soft and gentle way to end a post wherein you have been very contentious? I think that it is. I end all of my post this way because I care about those whom I am responding, including those whom I am compelled to resist and sharply reprove.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 26, 1999

Ahhhhh..NEVER did I say that I was complaining about you brother Saffold...just asking a question. And another question I pose for your comtemplation.....are ALL of us in the wrong who have intimated or even come right out & said that you lack love in your admonishings?!?!?! It seems that many of these folks here are reflecting that feeling too, whether they come right out & say it or not.I was just reading the posts (lurking I think is the tech. term) for learning & even I got that feeling from some of your postings.And just my opinion...I don't think that offering a prayer on the behalf of 1 is reflecting of a gentile spirit necessarily. That can even be done in a scathing manner..is that what prayers of imprecation are? HOPEFULLY you haven't offered any of those up towards any 1 you have had a disagreement with. My concern wasn't 1 of whether PK is right or wrong...seems that horse has been beaten to a pulp. And my opinion is not necessary at this point in the conversation concerning PK. But I wonder what influence we would allow the Holy Spirit in dealing w/ the men who go to these meetings,even hearing an "impure" gospel. After all I am a perfect example of 1 who had heard an inferior Gospel & yet the H.S. was able to guide me to the truth. So maybe after all this bantering we leave the salvation process to the soul & the Spirit. I trust His workings in the lives of those who TRULY want to hear the truth & those who just want their ears tickled. And if there be those who attend these functions as a form of leading others to a complete knowledge of saving grace, then I say go..the fields are ripe, even there...and while you're there, receive a blessing from the H.S. then AMEN! I have no problem with that.But then again it's not my problem is it.....it would be those who are involved. So in ending may I say that I covet your prayers for the ministry that the Lord has directed our family to...this field on the college campus is sooooooo desparately needed in this day when these young people haven't even been brought up with the least of the gospel message. Pour out prayers non-stop towards the Throne so that they may be taught the truth in LOVE, accepting them as they are just as Christ accepted us...& still does. That I would have to say will keep every-1 on their knees for quite awhile! :) Blessed be the ties that binds....... >^..^<-thy C. ><>

-- Anonymous, October 26, 1999

Brother Kelley:

I quote your words and respond as follows:

For the record to anyone reading this. The bible says that one cannot be saved unless you beleive (Mark 16:16), repent (Acts 2:38) and be immersed to live a faithful life for the Lord. I do beleive as I always have that there is much error with someone who does not teach baptism. I do not teach false doctrine as Lee Staffold proclaims. The fact that I attend PK is NOT that I embrase their teachings (which are NOT totally false), but that much good can come from a PK event. Jesus ate with sinners and tax collectors and was friends with protestitutes. He one them over with love. If we are to teach the way of truth handed down by the Apostles- then we must do it with much prayer and diligence. I can worship in PK events along with Baptist, AG's, etc. not because I embrase their doctine- but that we both want the same thing a closer relationship with Christ. I have been exposed to tremdous opportunities to "witness" in the meetings and to share my experiences and my beliefs. Lee, if you cut and paste me- I will not respond.

-- Kelley (wwjdkelley@hotmail.com), October 26, 1999.

Brother Kelley:

I appreciate your admission that there is much error with someone who does not teach baptism with your following words:

For the record to anyone reading this. The bible says that one cannot be saved unless you beleive (Mark 16:16), repent (Acts 2:38) and be immersed to live a faithful life for the Lord. I do beleive as I always have that there is much error with someone who does not teach baptism.

Then you should agree that there is much error in the quote from official PK organization sources that does not teach baptism! Do you agree that this quote has much error within it because it does not teach baptism? Would you agree that there is much error in one that teaches baptism but does not teach the truth about it? Most of the denominations teach baptism as nothing more than an outward sign of an inward grace and they teach that one can be saved without it. Would you find much error in that teaching? I think that you would because you have set the record straight that one cannot be saved unless you believe (Mark 16:16), repent (Acts 2:38) and be immersed to live a faithful life for the Lord. If you always believed such, and I do not doubt it in the least, why do you support an organization that teaches a doctrine that is diametrically opposed to this truth. Why do you support attending PK meetings with no intent to correct this much error which you see from the below quote is being taught there? Now if you were saying lets attend PK meetings and contend earnestly for the truth about baptism. Lets seek to convert the PKs to that truth and correct this much error that they are teaching because much good can be done at such a meeting. you and I could shake hands and agree right now. But you have not said that, now have you Brother Kelley? So for the record tell us that you are willing to go and debate the PKs that teach this much error about baptism. Or tell us that you are opposed to the PKs teaching the false doctrine that men can be saved by believing, repenting, accepting Jesus into their hearts, and saying the sinners prayer. Tell us that they are wrong in believing that once they are saved in this way it is wise to leave baptism up to the individual and his church.

Now here is the quote from an official Pk source that states how to become a part of Gods family and it is full of error. It contains what brother Kelley would call much error because it leaves baptism completely out of what one must do to become a part of Gods family. Why could you not oppose this teaching Brother Kelley? If you have always believed that there is much error with one who does not teach baptism why have you been unable to admit that the quote below, which you have seen often, has much error and therefore the PK organization is teaching much error by it? Those who attend Pk meetings, though they do not embrace this much error but refuse to oppose this much error are partakers of the evil deeds of those who promulgate this much error. (2 John 9-11). Can you agree Brother Kelley that this quote below for official PK sources contains much error because it does not teach the truth about baptism? If you do, then can we agree that PK is teaching false doctrine in this respect? Can we then agree that all who attend PK meetings should oppose that false doctrine? We sincerely hope that you will set the record straight on this matter and then we can know if  Brother Saffold is correct in saying that you are teaching false doctrine.

Read this again since according to Brother Kelley there is much error in those who do not teach Baptism. "ARE YOU SURE YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN?  You need to do five things to become a part of Gods family. If you have not already done these, I urge you, if you are sincerely ready, to do them now: 1. Admit your spiritual need.  I am a sinner. 2. Repent. Be willing to turn from your sin, and with Gods help, start living to please him. 3. Believe that Jesus Christ died for you on the cross and Rose again. 4. Receive, through prayer, Jesus Christ into your heart and life. Pray something like this from the sincerity of your heart: Dear lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner. I believe that you died for my sins and then rose from the grave. Right now, I turn from my sins and open the door of my life. I receive You as my personal Lord and Savior. Thank you for saving me. 5. Then tell a believing friend and a pastor about your commitment." From Seven Promises of a Promise Keeper Copy Wright 1994 by Promise Keepers. Introduction by Randy Phillips, Page 10.

Randy Phillips, President of PK at the time of his writing, left baptism completely out of the plan of salvation as he described how one becomes a part of Gods family in this quote that you have completely ignored. But you told us that they leave baptism in just because you saw one person on one occasion have the courage to stand up and urge others to be baptized. But in general, based on their officially accepted teachings of their leaders as quoted above they clearly leave baptism OUT. But you have told us that they leave it in? Now Brother Kelley you know that they leave it out and that the event you witnessed was an exception to the rule. From their official teaching which I have quoted numerous times now we see that it is CLEARLY LEFT OUT. But here are your words claiming that they leave it in. That claim is definitely untrue!

I have clearly answered myself on the issue of the PK stance- yes, they teach a person to come to faith in Christ which is a clearly Biblical thing to do (Acts 2:38, I John 1:9, Matthew 16:16, Mark 16:16), and to repent of one's sins. Then they are told to be baptized into Christ- words that were spoken by Rick Kingham (MC)of the event in which I personally attended. Also, they reveal Matthew 28:18ff as one of their seven promises. If they were so evil, then why do they leave Baptism in?

You even show from your own words that baptism is left out of their process and is instead left up to the individual and their churches". I quote your words to that effect:

Further more the men (and women go too) who attend, are encouraged to be baptized after the call to receive Christ. I personally witnessed this- did they follow through- that is up to the individual and his church

So you see the PK organization will not baptize them. If they are baptized at a PK meeting it will be because someone contrary to official PK doctrine leads them to be baptized anyway. This is what I have been urging all to do. Attend the PK meetings with the intent to preach the gospel of Christ to them and to baptize them into Christ while they are there so that they can TRULY be forgiven of their sins. Instead of being deceived into believing that their sins are forgiven the moment that they believe in Christ and repeat the sinners prayer without being baptized into Christ. But that is not what PK supporters are doing. They are sitting there with their mouths closed and saying nothing while hundreds of sincere persons want to come to Christ. They are told to pray the sinners prayer and then they are saved. What do our brethren do? Well, Brother Kelley has told me that Randy Phillips is a Christian church preacher. When he wrote the quote below about how to become a part of Gods family why did he deliberately LEAVE BAPTISM OUT? That was not only supporting false doctrine it was openly teaching it. Now brother Kelley, I have never said that we should not attend PK meetings. In fact I have offered to attend myself but what I have said is that we attend with the purpose of teaching the truth of the gospel of Christ to those who are seeking Him. Let us urge those who are trying to come to him at these meetings to be baptized into Christ. Can we agree on that brother Kelley? I will attend a PK meeting with you, Brother Kelley, if you will agree that we will proclaim the true gospel of Christ while we are there. If you will agree that we will attend with the purpose of CONVERTING those who are not Christians to Christ. That means those who have not been baptized into Christ which will include a large majority of them. But if we attend without any such purpose and give Godspeed to those who are not teaching the doctrine of Christ we would be partaking of their evil deeds. (2 John 9-11). If you do that then you will be supporting false doctrine, which you have admitted in this post that they do in fact teach. Can we agree on that Brother Kelley?

Then you say:

The fact that I attend PK is NOT that I embrase their teachings (which are NOT totally false)

I appreciate your admission brother Kelley with this statement that the PKs are teaching false doctrine for if their teachings are, as you say, NOT TOTALLY FALSE it implies your awareness-despite your unwillingness to say clearly- that they are NOT TOTALLY TRUE either, now are they? If their doctrine is not totally true then it is false doctrine and the documentation from offical Pk source, which I have given over and over again, which you are completely unwilling to admit is false doctrine is an example of their false teaching. No one has ever said that everything being taught at a PK meeting is false but we have said that when it comes to teaching people what to do to be saved their doctrine is false. Now Brother Kelley, you know that they do not teach that baptism is essential to salvation as you have said that you have always believed. Then why can you not bring yourself to admit that false doctrine is being promulgated and taught by the PK organization?

You then remind us that Jesus ate with sinners and was friends of prostitutes.

Jesus ate with sinners and tax collectors and was friends with protestitutes. He one them over with love. If we are to teach the way of truth handed down by the Apostles- then we must do it with much prayer and diligence.

Yes our Lord was a friend of sinners and so should we be. But you have spoken of the PK not as a group of sinners but as a body of Christians. Now I know that if you and others like you attend there will be some Christians there but those who have not obeyed the gospel of Christ, which is the majority of them, are not saved from their sins and are therefore not Christians. They have not been born of water and the Spirit according to the teaching of our Lord (John 3:3-5). Now we should do just as Jesus did. Let us attend the PK meetings and win them over to Christ by lovingly preaching the gospel of Christ and boldly contending with those who oppose that precious gospel which is the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16). Let us  through the foolishness of preaching the gospel save them that believe. Yes Christ was a friend with prostitutes but he did not partake of their evil deeds by supporting their behavior rather he reproved them in love and truth. I agree with you that if we teach the truth handed down by the apostles then we must do it with much prayer and diligence. I say a hearty AMEN to that. So let us become diligent about preaching the truth at the PK meetings if we chose to attend them. I have never said that we should not attend. I have said that we must not only attend but also contend for the faith while we are there instead of pretending that we are just like them. Instead of appearing that we agree with all that they say and come back all excited as if we support all that they do and inspire our fellow saints to attend and join in and participate instead of opposing the obvious false teaching that is being taught there. So let us be diligent. I am still offering to attend a pk meeting with any of you that would like to do so with the purpose of standing up for the truth of the gospel. And encouraging those who are coming to the Lord to be immersed into Christ for the remission of their sins. I have not had any takers yet. What about you, Brother Kelley, would you support such an effort? I know that you are mad at me but would you support such an effort with some other Brother in Christ that you respect more than you respect me?

I present all of the above in an effort to keep the record of this discussion straight. And to challenge all of us to be diligent as Brother Kelley suggested, in handing down the apostles doctrine to those at PK meetings by preaching the precious gospel of Christ to them and contending for the faith once delivered to the saints while we are among them. I still wait for those who are will to do such work

I do pray for you sincerely Brother Kelley.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 26, 1999

Kathy:

I appreciate the kindness of you post even though you and some others think that I am so unkind. You posed another question for my contemplation as follows:

And another question I pose for your comtemplation.....are ALL of us in the wrong who have intimated or even come right out & said that you lack love in your admonishings?!?!?! It seems that many of these folks here are reflecting that feeling too, whether they come right out & say it or not.I was just reading the posts (lurking I think is the tech. term) for learning & even I got that feeling from some of your postings.And just my opinion...I don't think that offering a prayer on the behalf of 1 is reflecting of a gentile spirit necessarily. That can even be done in a scathing manner..is that what prayers of imprecation are?

I do not know what a prayer of imprecation is but I do know that it is possible for one to pray in a mean spirit and one can offer to pray in a mean spirit as well. But I can tell you, and only God and I can know this to be true, I have not offered to pray nor have I prayed for anyone in my entire life with a mean spirit. Prayer is a place where I cannot in the presence of the almighty that knows all about me both good and bad have a mean spirit. I do pray for all of those whom I have spoken with in this forum. Both those who agree with men and those who do not agree and charge me falsely with having a unkind and unloving spirit without even trying to examine my arguments.

You say I lack love but you do not prove it. You merely assert it. You cannot know my heart but you can judge my words. If you will be specific and point to the actual words in their context where I have been "unloving" I will repent of such if your charge is true and do my very best not to repeat the performance. But if you are referring to instances where I have pressed the argument strongly against those who refuse to face the truth I will not consider such to be unkind or unloving. If you will carefully examine the remarks of those who have opposed me on this issue you will find some good examples of being unkind and unloving but when the argument becomes too much for them to handle they cry that I have been unloving. I have not complained of their remarks because I am more interested in truth. If they can correct me if I am in error I do not mind if they are harsh in their manner, so long as truth is their objective. But I have not seen you, or anyone else attempt to correct those who agree with their position for being unkind and unloving. Others who support Pk have said that they feel sorry for me and that they are praying for me but I have not seen you warn them about prayer of imprecation. I wonder why? Is it because they hold your view and therefore they just could not possibly ever be guilty of such? I do not believe that they are or that they ever would just as surely as I have not and never would be guilty of using prayer in this way.

But I will continue to pray for you and your family and the work that you do as you have requested of me with these words:

So in ending may I say that I covet your prayers for the ministry that the Lord has directed our family to...this field on the college campus is sooooooo desparately needed in this day when these young people haven't even been brought up with the least of the gospel message. Pour out prayers non-stop towards the Throne so that they may be taught the truth in LOVE, accepting them as they are just as Christ accepted us...& still does. That I would have to say will keep every-1 on their knees for quite awhile!

I assume from your request that you do accept that it is possible that I have been and am yet sincere when I offer to pray for others in this forum. I can tell you this much, I will never stop offering to pray for others and those who write in this forum especially those with whom I strongly disagree. For I have not demonstrated the hateful spirit that you and a few others assert without proof that I am guilty of doing. As I have said, if you can prove with specific examples that I have been unloving, unkind, or otherwise unfaithful to the Lord in any way I will repent forthwith. And I will thank you for the correction but the general false accusation of deliberate unkindness is nothing but a smoke screen to keep others from paying attention to the sound and yet unanswered arguments that have been made against the false doctrine being taught at the PK events.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 26, 1999

Wow Mr saffold:

So much to say & trying to keep my thoughts together U'll have to forgive me if they sound a bit disjointed..but here I go: I've read & re-read through many of the postings in this debate & I do have to say that I FEEL that U do at times come across with a lack of love...using words such as "ridiculing" 1's doctrine & even the practices of 1's church does send a non-loving message. I am not denying what U have been saying in all the postings are true (& maybe others are just refusing throuh their silence)to acknowledge the truth. Even if (& U are) rightly handling the Word of God....no arguments from me there...I simply struggle w/ your way of exasperating those who have already conceded to you the issues at hand. My opinion...FALSE DOCTRINE = FALSELY HANDLING THE WORD OF GOD.So to bring that up to me is nothing more than exasperating samantics. See what I mean..can U try for a moment to do that please? OK.. admittance from ME... I agree 100% PK perpetuates a false, incomplete doctrine, no issue there right?....BUT I also choose to see that if the Holy Spirit can BEGIN to work on a soul made spiritually vunerable through a PK rally then PTL. As I stated before...I was drawn to the truth via a false road. Truth was revealed to me through the workings of the H.S. & my faith that wanted to please God...not by a scripture-spitting truth monger. NOW that wasn't directed towards you...but just trying to get U to understand that simply having obtained the truth doesn't automatically compel 1 towards love...can it not produce arrogance (puffing up)....1 Cor. 12:1,2 which only hurts Kingdom work. I can & do reprove my children sharply & yet keep a soft, gentile spirit & tone about me. I contend for the faith daily yet I choose NOT to be contentious...I believe that it can be accomplished. I can choose to disagree agreeably & pray for the interceding of the H.S. The seeds of truth have been planted...that's what I've been called to do. I am beginning to see that it's the premise of "contending w/ or w/out a contentious attitude" may be where we part in reaching the lost or the wayard-thinking brethren. I guess it's a personality thing here. My plan was to never (not intentionally anyway)plant a smokescreen as U accused me of in this debate over PK & God's usefulness thereof. IMO God can choose to use ANYTHING He so desires to spread the Kingdom of Grace. Again I refer back to my response about the H.S. I have in fact noticed others who have gotten heated in their postings apologize (I'm not the apology police either), yet I have also noticed you standing STRICTLY on the truth & it seems to be ok to offend the brother because after all "I have the truth...." Again I ask about 1 Cor. 12:1,2? Wouldn't that apply here? Is it so hard for U to say "hey bro. sorry I got U so riled up...wasn't my intention.....I just feel as strongly this way as U do yours....guess it's an impasse, hunh?" You can demand any documentation u desire...but brother if you don't get, just drop it....don't use it as an exasperating banter. ALLOW the H.S. to work on these hearts that R struggling for the truth w/out your harrassment. Give 'em time dude! Let the seeds of thought germinate! And please do me a favor...don't pick me apart..these are just encouragments for you brother...nothing to cut & paste. Don't need to remind me of my words...that does get rather insulting at times....& I know that's not your intentions! And YES! I do believe your sincerity of prayer time...that's why I said I covet your prayers for our family's ministry. And I'm even ready to start on another thread...think this 1's buried 6 feet under..or should be anyway! LOL Now wasn't that a bit funny?!?!?! Common..U can do it....smile! Must be that mothering thing in me..& I PTL for that too!:) CIAO my friend, >^..^<-thy C. ><>

-- Anonymous, October 27, 1999

Is one unloving because we deem their words or tone to be harsh? Can we have such an overwhelming love for the gospel, the lost, and those who might be led astray that in our defense of these we do not mince words?

Would we today consider the men who said the following as judgmental and unloving?

Mt. 7:6 Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under foot and turn and maul you.

II Peter 2:21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment that was passed on the them, It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to its own vomit, and The sow is washed only to wallow in the mud.

Philippians 3:2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of those who mutilate the flesh!

Gal. 5:12 I wish that those who unsettle you would mutilate/castrate/emasculate themselves!

Mt. 23:13-14 Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in mens faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

Acts 13:9-10 But Saul, who was also {known as} Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixed his gaze upon him, and said, "You who are full of all deceit and fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord?

1 Tim 6:3-5 If anyone advocates a different doctrine, and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, he is conceited {and} understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.

2 Cor 11:1-15 I wish that you would bear with me in a little foolishness; but indeed you are bearing with me. For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, that to Christ I might present you {as} a pure virgin. But I am afraid, lest as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds should be led astray from the simplicity and purity {of devotion} to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear {this} beautifully. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their deeds.

Titus 1:9-13 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, that he may be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict. For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not {teach} for the sake of sordid gain. One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons." This testimony is true. For this cause reprove them severely that they may be sound in the faith

There is a time and a place for strong, blunt, severe and yes even harsh words. Some may not use them. Some prefer to be more gentle. Doesnt Gods word show us both?

-- Anonymous, October 29, 1999

Sister Muse:

A better answer or explaination of this matter which your post so aptly supplies could not have been given! You have actually and wisely allowed the word of God to bring clarity to this issue that I have been completely unable to express. This is what I love about you in the Lord. Your complete faith in and commitment to the precious word of God touches my heart and brings tears of Joy to my eyes. Like a breath of fresh air the word of God as a"mighty wind" runs through your post! If we had the time to add the words of the Old Testament prophets to your well chosen list of scriptures we could only add more of the same to what was a completely sufficient reply.

I thank you and your post will find a place in my heart and in my files for future reference. I belive that you have hit the nail squarely on the head as is characteristic of one who speaks for God.

Now for those who like to see me smile, this post of Sister muse has me beaming today with a smile that comes from deep within a soul that has been moved to joy by the teaching of the Holy Spirit in His word. Foolish words and idle "jesting" cannot even begin to compare to the joy and laughter that the Holy word of God can bring forth to our spirits. If you could see my face now you would see the bright smile that some have sought to invoke with foolish "jesting".

I thank our Lord for you this day Sister Muse!

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 29, 1999

Madam Muse...

You said, "There is a time and a place for strong, blunt, severe and yes even harsh words."

Well, sorry, but I don't agree - per say. Not in the way you imply. It is never ok to berate another person, no matter how much I may disagree. You quoted all those passages but remember the command, dear sis, of the Apostle Paul, "Speak the truth in love." Love is the starting point. Couple that thought with what love is defined as in 1 Corinthians 13. And then you have an equation for treating each other with all the respect that Christ shows us.

Now I had to ask Saffold's forgiveness for the way I responded to him and he also sought mine. NOTE VERY CLEARLY: I did not ask forgiveness for my stance - nor did he.

One should never have to apologize for his position, but one should always be willing to apologize for his disposition. You know this to be true, I am not telling you something novel. You know that "how" things are said are in many ways much more important than "what" we say. So....speak the truth in love, and always be ready to apologize for being rude of that shoe happens to fit.

-- Anonymous, October 29, 1999

Okay Michael...wher were U when I was trying to find the words for my thoughts...thanks dude....U "took 'em right outa my mouth!" So I'll let dead horses lie. Stick a fork in me...I'm done! CIAO, KRC

-- Anonymous, October 29, 1999

Brother Demastus: I have a short, concise, and hopefully respectful response to your post in answer to our beloved sister Muse. I want to begin by saying that I am happy that you and I are getting to know each other. I hope that these words will not hinder our effort to become close Brothers in Christ. What I have to say is not in any way a condemnation of you. But just an effort to urge us to stand strong even when we are considered harsh and unkind. Because of our love for the truth and the lost will not allow us to be silent or so timid in our responses that the truth is covered with sweet verbiage to the point that silence would have produced the same results. Now I will refer to the passages that Sister Muse quoted and follow with so questions and observations that I hope will help us to come to a reasonable agreement with her position.

II Peter 2:21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment that was passed on the them, It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to its own vomit, and The sow is washed only to wallow in the mud. Do you think that Brother Peter should have, for we have no record that he did, apologized for his disposition in the above passage? Philippians 3:2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of those who mutilate the flesh!

Do you think that Brother Paul should have apologized for referring to these evil workers as dogs?

Gal. 5:12 I wish that those who unsettle you would mutilate/castrate/emasculate themselves!

Was not this statement extremely harsh? Should Paul have apologized for what he said?

Mt. 23:13-14 Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in mens faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

Was our Lords words in this passage unloving when he called these teachers of the law and Pharisees hypocrites? Should he have apologized for saying it?

Acts 13:9-10 But Saul, who was also {known as} Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixed his gaze upon him, and said, "You who are full of all deceit and fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord?

Paul accused this person of being a son of the devil should he have apologized for being so harsh. Was he unloving. Was he failing to preach the truth in Love? Did he fail to follow his own words found in 1 Corinthians 13?

1 Tim 6:3-5 If anyone advocates a different doctrine, and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, he is conceited {and} understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.

Was Paul failing to be kind and loving by saying that these men were of depraved mind and deprived of the truth? Was he apparently behaving as if he alone had a corner on the truth? Should he have apologized for saying it?

2 Cor 11:1-15 I wish that you would bear with me in a little foolishness; but indeed you are bearing with me. For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, that to Christ I might present you {as} a pure virgin. But I am afraid, lest as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds should be led astray from the simplicity and purity {of devotion} to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear {this} beautifully. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their deeds.

Was Paul again being caustic here by calling those who preached another Jesus and a different gospel deceitful workers and servants of Satan? Should he have apologized?

Titus 1:9-13 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, that he may be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict. For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not {teach} for the sake of sordid gain. One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons." This testimony is true. For this cause reprove them severely that they may be sound in the faith

How about this place where Paul agrees with a Cretan prophet and therefore joined in calling the whole lot of them liars, evil beast, and gluttons? Should he have apologized for his disposition?

It seems to me that Sister Muse is correct in what she has said. Paul, who wrote 1 Corinthians 13, did not see any prohibition to the use of strong, blunt, severe, and yes harsh words when the time, place and argument require it. Is it not possible that love itself could motivate such harsh words to come from our Saviors lips and also from His apostles?

Now you are correct in saying that you and I apologized to each other because we both chose at times to use words that were harsh toward each other that were motivated by the frustration and heat of the argument. Rather than to point clearly to the truth and to reprove sharply one who was in error out of the motive of love that will not let one be lost.

I understand your point, and so does Sister Muse, that we should strive to be gentle and as much as possible to be at peace with all men. But to say that we cannot ever use strong, severe and harsh language when contending for the faith once for all delivered to the saints is in direct conflict with the example set forth by our Lord and His apostles as quoted by Sister Muse.

I sincerely hope that you can see her point. It is a very good and valid one.

I am happy that you and I have had the opportunity to correspond and to get to know each other. You made a very good point that because we do not know each other we often take liberties that we would not take if we could see and know each other on the other side of these computers. Your point is valid that we must be careful to speak the truth in love. But can you not see that the use of harsh language, on occasions which, in defense of the truth of the gospel, it is prompted by some egregious error that will cause men to lose their souls can be motivated by love? For this surely was true in the case of our Lord and His apostles.

Now I do not mean to imply that I have always used harsh words at the appropriate time and place hence my apology to you and others on occasion when I have clearly failed but this does not completely rule out at ALL times the use of strong language.

There are many cases where the gospel itself is offensive. You could not teach the truth among the denominations and the liberal media of this country without very quickly offending the majority of your audience. If you were contending for the faith on a modern TV talk show you could not quote a single scripture without being accused of being a a scripture-spitting truth monger or just another Bible thumper and many other things. Now all of those things would not be true but the majority of the people would believe that you were being harsh in your judgement of those who were not Christians and that you were therefore deserving of the ridicule that you received. My point is that you cannot escape offending others. Preaching the truth alone brings offense. Look at how many were offended by our Lord who never spoke anything but truth. The truth is often offensive even when no strong or harsh language is used. If you were to examine what many in this forum consider harsh you may find that it was not judgmental rhetoric but the harsh reality of truth that really offended them. So they look for some "harsh" word spoken by the bearer of the truth so that they can complain that he has offended them with his tone or his manner or his judgmental spirit.

I only ask that you think about this Brother Demastus. It seems that Sister Muse is correct for her argument was nothing more than quoting examples from the word of God that many in this forum would consider harsh and offensive language if it were used by any of us in our arguments. In fact I doubt if you can find a place in this forum where anyone has come close to being as severe as our Lord and His apostles were in these passages which she quotes. Unless of course it is I, but I can only think of one place where I approached being equally severe, as Paul but I never really reached my goal! Ha!

I have new respect for you Brother given the things that I have been able to learn from our correspondence. I do not like to disagree with any of my Brethren. And I am happy that you and I agree in your post about the man being the head of the woman. I look forward to us being on the same side for a change. I think that if you reconsider Sister Muses point that we will agree on this as well. If not, I will remain your caustic Brother none the less.

I pray for you, your family and your work for our Lord.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 29, 1999

Brother Saffold,

Don't worry. I appreciate you for your upholding the truth consistently. Note though, that my disagreement with Sister Muse was not one in which we can "never" use a harsh word with another person. I simply think that in the frame of reference she posted her thought - referring to previous debate where you and I were "out of line", that is where I take issue.

We too quickly speak truth unlovingly (myself included). And we can never, never, never go wrong going about things in more loving manners.

BTW, I will always show you respect now that I know you are learned in all those different forms of martial arts. I am just a little fuzz ball and you'd be able to turn me into pudding!

Take Care.

-- Anonymous, October 30, 1999

Brother Michael,

Yes...we should always speak the truth in love, and are wrong if we berate others. If we don't speak the truth in love we should apologize. If we berate others or are rude, then again we should apologize.

Now, just what you think I've implied...I don't know. I have only implied (through the use of scripture) that it is not ALWAYS wrong to speak severely or harshly. Are we to use this as a license to go around speaking harshly any time we please because we are speaking truth? NO! But...there are times when harsh words will be spoken in defense of the gospel.

And of course, you are right...One should not have to apologize for his or her position, and should be willing to apologize for their disposition. On second thought...I can think of a time when a person should apologize for their position, and that is if they have come to the conclusion that they have been wrong. Since I have come to know the Lord, and learn more about Him every day...I have apologized many times for my position. Hope that clears this up.

-- Anonymous, October 30, 1999