Category - sanitation and sewage

This is another prep area that I have been going round on. We are on a private well and septic, but the septic situation is not completely gravity flow, so we won't be able to use it in power outage situations.

We are rural, and plan to dig a hole or a few holes (left covered), but am doubtful that we could build a out-house proper yet this fall, much less post y2k. Additionally, even if we could, my mom would not be able to walk to it as needed.

Thus, I was gravitating to the idea of the lining the toilet with plastic bags, and then as necessary taking them out and emptying them down the dug holes, then burning the bags. (Originally I had thought the bags could be buried, also, but then there will be less room in the holes, waste less likely to break down-- also I saw the Monarch y2k video on which Ted Wright gave advice not to put waste into plastic bags because that will be a breeding ground for bacteria, etc. -[a paraphrase]). A further aside: tp will go into a separate bag for burning, as well.

Now I just happened to be out at this site: http://forums.cosmoaccess.net/forum/survival/prep/library2/hmnwaste.htm

and there they caution that draining the water from the toilet will allow sewer gas and methane gas to come into the house.

Okay. So I've heard a lot of different things and read a lot of different things. We were going to have to drain the water out of the toilet anyway because chances are, without a good heating source, things are going to freeze. (Heck, I'm not even sure if I know how to drain the water from the toilet-- anyone care to give details on this as well?) And, do I now need to worry about methane or sewer gasses coming in the house (even though it's a private septic)?

Are there better options to the plastic bag in the toilet? (Again, my mom would have difficulty walking to an outhouse or even trying to use a less steady alternative like a bucket or camping toilet. Chemical toilets are additionally problematic because 1) they're still unsteady, 2)chemical supply is non renewable and 3) still left with where to go with the waste.)

It sometimes feels like there doesn't seem to be anything that's just plain straightforward while trying to prep... So once again I turn to this forum... Any insights or tips (and that's not those outhouse tipping tips either!) would be greatly appreciated. Thanks,

-- winter wondering (winterwondering@yahoo.com), October 01, 1999

Answers

For years my dad closed our summer cottage by turning off the pump,flushing the toliet and then pouring antifreeze in the toliet. Never had any problems with freezing or gases and this was in northern Michigan. Used to catch us a few mice and once a squirrel who took a drink of antifreeze though....An item that can often be found in a shopper or can be rented is a bedside commode--used in nrsing homes and hospitals. Essentially an armed chair with pot undr that is easily emptied and sanitized....wouldn't have to be infirm to make use of this...better for oldsters than perching on a bucket. Just an idea.

-- mutti (windance@train.missouri.org), October 01, 1999.

Hi, Winter Wondering,

As far as draining your toilet, can't you get a wood heater to keep your house warm? But if you do have to drain the toilet, just turn off the stop valve (usually located on the wall, just under the toilet tank), then flush the toilet. The remaining water in the tank will mostly drain out if you flush a couple of more times, then soak the remainder up in an old towel. (As you know, from your earlier posts, you still have to deal with the water in the pipes.

Don't drain the toilet trap, of course (Yes, you will get gross smelling gas comning into your house if the water in ANY trap isn't kept topped off. These are also not healthy to breath. Pour antifreeze into it (didn't we discuss this recently?)

I hope you won't burn the trash bags; they give off very toxic fumes.

As far as how to poop without a functioning toilet (I guess you aren't going to run your septic pump with a generator periodically?), someone posted a very practical letter here a month or two ago about "sawdust toilets" or something like that. I assume it's in the archives. It seems like a good alternative for your mom. I'd personally rather use the post hole method, but I don't have a problem with balance.

I can't emphasize enough the importance of getting a good backup heat source. If you think you don't need it, try turning off your heat for a few days this winter. You won't like it! Sorry, I don't know remember where you live (Idaho?) but it must be pretty cold if you have a potential to freeze the toilet trap.

Stay warm,

Al

-- Al K. Lloyd (all@ready.now), October 01, 1999.

Hi Winter Wondering,

Just a though for your mother. Adjustable height toilets/toilet covers are made for people who can't sit down at the normal toilet level. These usually sit above the toilet, providing anywhere from 6 inches to a foot additional sitting height. They are a necessity for some patients recovering from surgery and are used frequently by elderly who are unable to get up from normal toilet height. Plastic seat, metal frame, adjustable height.

These wonders come with a 'porta-potty' slide-in pan, so that they can be used without the toilet, e.g., set up in a bedroom so that the patient doesn't have to wander in to the bathroom. They are sturdy, and have grab rails on each side.

Sounds like a solution. Set the thing up in the bathroom. All of you could use the pan, and empty it after use. No need to put a bag in the toilet

Available from medical supply stores. Cost about $60. Have one in my attic, used following surgery.

-- de (delewis@XOUTinetone.net), October 01, 1999.

Winter & Al,

Here's a sawdust toilet page w/ plans. Gets nicely around the garbage bag issue.

http://www.rdrop.com/users/krishna/sawdust/htm

Apparently you can also pour on a bit of bleach in addition to the sawdust layers to keep the bucket unstinky.

-- PH (ag3@interlog.com), October 01, 1999.

For those of you who are not ace carpenters and would rather "buy" the solution I suggest:

http://www.thethrone.com/seat.htm

y2kportabletoilet Portable Sanitary Toilet Seat has been molded with special grooves on its underside, assuring a tight, secure seal on the rim of your bucket. No tipping or teetering will be experienced. A plastic bag or liner can be placed into the bucket, prior to placing the seat on top.

(No I do not own stock in this company, just a "satisfied" client!)

-- Helium (Heliumavid@yahoo.com), October 01, 1999.

Just a note for ya'll. Most farm supplies, feed and tack stores (for cities check under horse in the yellow pages) carry barn or stall lime. If it can keep the smell down on horses who drinks about 10 gallons a day it'll do wonders for outhouse situations. Please note it is VERY fine and powdery so don't open in the house.

-- Stacia (ClassyCwgl@aol.com), October 01, 1999.

Hi. As a city dweller I was considering using a bag in the toilet bowl, but having scoopable cat litter in the bag before actual use. This type of litter absorbs odors well. I have never had a used bag of my cat's litter blow-up with gas in my garbage can while waiting for garbage pickup day. I hope this helps.

-- mwerks3 (mwerks3@yahoo.com), October 01, 1999.

MY TWO CENTS: -

Short term outages - use Walmart/Costco porta-potti.

Long term outages - use a Composting toilet. I would recommend the following book:

The Humanure Handbook

I would also recommend the following website for more info:

Composting Toilet Link

The Composting of Human Manure describes a simple, low-tech humanure composting system, the sawdust toilet. This information is excerpted with permission from The Humanure Handbook - a Guide to Compostion Human Manure by Joseph C. Jenkins. These excerpts are for informational purposes only. If you are going to compost human manure we strongly suggest you read the complete text of The Humanure Handbook published by Jenkins Publishing, PO Box 607, Grove City, Pa, 16127 USA.

-- G (balzer@lanset.com), October 02, 1999.

Let's try that again...

MY TWO CENTS: -

Short term outages - use Walmart/Costco porta-potti.

Long term outages - use a Composting toilet. I would recommend the following book:

The Humanure Handbook

I would also recommend the following website for more info:

Composting Toilet Link

The Composting of Human Manure describes a simple, low-tech humanure composting system, the sawdust toilet. This information is excerpted with permission from The Humanure Handbook - a Guide to Compostion Human Manure by Joseph C. Jenkins. These excerpts are for informational purposes only. If you are going to compost human manure we strongly suggest you read the complete text of The Humanure Handbook published by Jenkins Publishing, PO Box 607, Grove City, Pa, 16127 USA.

-- G (balzer@lanset.com), October 02, 1999.

Thanks everyone for the additional information. A few responses/ additional questions/etc. below--

Mutti and de -- Thanks for the bedside commode/adjust. height toilet ideas. I have been considering something like this. Oh, and Mutti-- if you're going to use anti-freeze, try getting the RV anti-freeze which is supposed to be non-poisonous or "GRAS" (generally regarded as safe).

Helium -- thanks for the link, although this is still a bucket and unfortunately no matter how 'not tippy' it is advertised, there is also the squat factor. It won't work in this circumstance. By the way, what are your plans for 'after the bucket is full'? I'm looking for suggestions about that, as well...

Stacia -- Thanks for the lime tip. We usually have some on hand because it also works well for traction on ice in the winter. Will need to pick more of this up...

mwerks3 -- I have seen others suggesting kitty litter, too, and think it's a good idea. Along the lines of my question to Helium, what are your plans for the stuff after the bucket fills?

G & PH -- I will need to take a closer look at the sawdust and composting toilet info. I have read through some of this before, but am not sure this will work for us. I thought I read something that the composting had to already be working and had to be at a certain heat tempurature to work-- that this didn't work well in really cold climates because the various reactions didn't occur when outside temps dropped below such and such a point. Maybe I'm not recalling this correctly... Again, I will need to take another look.

Al -- will try to answer your questions. I did a thread a couple weeks ago with wood questions. Unfortunately a the cost of installing a wood stove or insert is beyond what I can afford. We have a small fireplace. We will have some wood. It will not heat the entire house. It may not even heat the entire room. It might even draw colder air into the rest of the house. But hopefully it will provide enough heat to take a little of the misery out. As far as living without heat... Well, I grew up on the next property over in the upstairs of an old famrhouse with no insulation. We had an lp space heater in our kitchen. The person who lived downstairs had one in her living room. I'm sure some of that helped heat the upstairs, too. But it was cold. There were times the frost was a half inch thick on the windows. I'm hoping the fireplace-- as well as the ability to heat water/food on the burners of our lp stove-- will keep us from freezing to death. But I don't have any notions that the fireplace will keep the pipes or toilets from freezing.

And no, no generator is available, either.

Yes, we had a recent discussion about anti-freeze in the traps. And luckily another person started a thread giving the amounts that should be used. But, I don't recall specific directions about draining the toilet per se. I have a fairly good sense of what I need to do to drain the pipes, but the toilet seems a little different. I realize pouring a cup or so of RV antifreeze into drains and sinks should result in the a.f. staying in the traps, but I really wasn't sure where the trap on the toilet is, or how to make sure that the a.f. fills the trap. Does the last flush that empties the bowl (in this case with a.f.) stay partially in the trap?

I'm sure I'm forgetting some things. But thanks again everyone,

-- winter wondering (winterwondering@yahoo.com), October 03, 1999.

Here is a thought for your mother, who needs a stable potty. Because I have a bad back, I have thought of using the portable toilet seat on legs, and which has arms too, with the plastic slide-out bedpan-type insert, which can then be emptied and re-used nicely. We used to have one from when my aunt needed it, and I wish I hadn't given it away thereafter! Hope this helps.

-- Elaine Seavey (Gods1sheep@aol.com), October 04, 1999.

Winter, you're really worrying me! I don't want you to freeze! Can't you save your pennies and buy a "cheap" wood heater (less than $100)? I realize you still have to have a flue installed in your chimney, but the cost of the flue and stove TOGETHER are probably less than a few months worth of heating costs that you are paying now.

As far as the trap in the toilet: the trap is a built in PART of the toilet. Just pour the antifreeze into the toilet bowl. The water in the toilet bowl is held there by the water in the trap. Wish I could submit a drawing here, but I don't know how. Anyway, just dump a quart to a half gallon of antifreeze into the bowl. If the water in the bowl isn't frozen, neither is the water in the trap.

Al

-- Al K. Lloyd (all@ready.now), October 04, 1999.