Y2K Eulogy for America

Founded upon the principles of self governance and the belief that each human being was bestowed with unalienable rights by the Creator, America was a shining and glorious light to the entire world. Wrested from despotism and evil rule, America struggled, fought and won her freedom and independence in blood. The people cheered this new land of theirs while mourning the deaths of those who had paid the ultimate price for their beliefs. A new Constitution was drafted and a Bill of Rights was established to preserve posterity for future generations.

America beckoned for the disenfranchised, the poor, the destitute, the entrepreneur and the opportunist. Like a beacon in the night, America reached out across the seas to every nation in the world, saying in a soft voice, come all to me...

Immigrants from around the world flocked to her shores seeking opportunity and fortune. Many found it. Many did not. Each was welcomed and each was offered the same chance through hard work, determination and respect for their fellow man. In droves, the people came. Hard working, a proud people, innovative, arrogant and warm hearted, America was soon world renowned for its land, its resources and its people. Quick to help, charitable, considerate and patriotic, the people of America were a source of pride and a national resource.

The years went by and slowly an insidious evil crept into the hearts of the people. A sense of self worth and self importance began to permeate the land. A sense of righteous destiny trickled down from the corporations and institutions, infecting the heart and minds of the people. Americas people had reasons to be proud, they had tamed the land and went forth and conquered most of the world. Not only in military conquest, but economically and politically America had tamed most of the world, forming it into her own image upon the forge of economic policy, diplomacy, foreign policy and a strong dose of belligerence.

The people slowly forgot their rights and they forgot their history. The evil became more perverse and more corrupt affecting the old and young alike. America became something she had hated and fought against in her youth, but the people slept on, forgetful, rejoicing in their wealth and their prosperity. The corporations had became the power mongers, manipulating the people, the land and the economy to further their gain. They plundered the land and the vast resources and abused the rights of the people with impunity. In alarm, some of the people assembled themselves and protested to their government, but their government didnt listen. The government was in league with the corporations and ignored the pleas of the people. Big business and shady deals had now become the law of the land while the people slept on. The corporation has learned to turn public policy into profit.

The people then petitioned the court with their grievances, but they soon found out that the court had also been overtaken by the power brokers too. In desperation, the people turned to the media in a last desperate attempt to win popular support but the media just laughed and ignored them.

In despair, many of the people just gave up and returned back to their lives, trying to forget. Impotently, some of the people fought on, hoping, believing, trusting that they can and are making a difference. Exhaustion and financial devastation overtakes many of them to this day. Despair and frustration takes its toll, resulting in broken marriages and disrupted lives. Still, they fight on, determined to save the land and the freedoms that were lost.

Within her shores, there are a few learned people who weep for the loss of their beloved land, but they do not fight. They do not lift their weary hands for her anymore. Their beloved America has become a skeleton of her former self and they know that she cannot be saved. No more does she beckon across the waters as a shining example of truth, liberty and freedom, America is now known as the oppressor the world over. Even within her own shores, some of her people know this.

Her hallowed halls are now filled with corrupt and evil politicians seeking personal gain and advantage over their fellow man. Her courts are filled with lying lawyers and evil judges who make backroom deals and plea bargains for murders, rapist, drug dealers and thieves. Justice has fled far from her shores and America is now destitute. The learned know her destiny and ultimate destruction are as sure as the day she was born and they do not fight for her anymore.

Sanctity of life is no longer sacred, Americas children are now murdered by the millions each year. Righteous judgement has given way to political favors and big business. America has learned the art of profit at the cost of human lives. Religious freedom is a thing of the past. Now the people seek federal approval and 501(c)3 status to worship their God. The Bill of Rights and the Constitution have become, as James Madison called it, a worthless piece of fabric.

America, where have you gone? Where is your land, your ethics, your values, the heart and soul of the people? You have lost your youth, the vigor of your early years. Your zeal for righteousness and truth, justice and liberty for all. What has become of you America?

America has become the harlot, a whore who plies her wares and her trade upon the world. Bedecked with jewels and gaudy makeup, she bats her eyes and with a lewd voice beckons the nations to enter her whoredoms. Petulantly she pouts when they hesitate, unsure if they want anything to do with this burlesque impersonation of truth and justice. Some protest silently, while other are dragged inexorably into her bedroom kicking and screaming. Most go down into the pit with her willingly, greedily trading their favors with one another, each thinking they are gaining the advantage over the other.

For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

America, there are a few of us who weep for you. Our tears of utter shame and regret are not meant to bring you back, but to bid you farewell. America is lost and we know it. Your date with destiny awaits you. Y2K is your wake up call and you yet vehemently deny it. You were born out of the ashes of revolution and to ashes you will again return. We know, deep down in our soul, that Y2K is the reckoning bell, a clanging irritating sound that wont go away. Y2K is the beginning of something very sinister and very ominous. In a few short days, we will all begin to experience the effects of narrow mindedness and profit motives. Emergency stop-gap measures will be implemented like in any serious disaster, only these wont go away. Americans will be stripped searched for their freedoms and their rights in a desperate attempt to save a land now lost. Y2K is just a precursor to what is really coming down the pike and Americans are transfixed in the headlights, unable to move or think or act.

Monumentous changes are in the works and its all downhill from here. Y2K heralds a new age alright, but it's not one that we are going to enjoy much. This age will ge the time of the antichrist and his reign.

America, the real America, the people who were her heart and soul, never knew their destiny. They never read the warning signs or the history books. They never knew that they were manipulated to play a part in the greatest drama of human history. The people never knew that they were in fact in the belly of the Beast, the Great Satan, Babylon the Whore. Very few of the people woke up. Sometimes they were quietly ignored. Sometimes they were killed in dramatic real life, made-for-t.v. episodes. The rest of the people who remained asleep sniggered and laughed at the morning news never realizing the truth that was burned in the flames along with the little children.

A very long time ago, God decreed that Babylon must fall. America, you now know your destiny. Will you weep? Will you cry out for mercy to the great God and Creator? Will you seek to repent and turn away from your wicked ways? Your fate is determined and you have been weighed in the balance and found wanting. In one hour, your judgement comes. However, God knows you and you will not repent, you will not turn away from your evil ways. Therefore, God will destroy you with an unquenchable fire with the fury of a thousand hells. Your smoke and torment will ascend up into the heavens and God will laugh at you in derision. The nations of the earth will mourn your delicacies, your goods and your trade. Will they mourn you?

A long time ago a solitary and lonely preacher stepped forward for a brief moment in history and forewarned us of these days. He was mostly ignored then as he is now, but his recorded words still ring true today.

We are now at a momentous point in human history. Do we comprehend the significance of this? Will we dust off the covers and examine the pages? Will we give heed to the wisdom that they contain? The words of this preacher remain our destiny and our judgement, the question is, will we now, finally, listen to what he had to say?

-- Ray (shusters@montanasky.net), October 01, 1999

Answers

Wow, man! John Kay of Steppenwolf shoulda sang this one instead of Monster! "America, where are you now? Don't you care about your sons and daughters? Don't you know we need you now; we can't find alone against the monster....."

-- Jay Urban (jurban@berenyi.com), October 01, 1999.

Ray, Is this yours? If not, who wrote it.

Anyway, it's like, uh, some things have consequences, apparently.

-- Mara Wayne (MaraWayne@aol.com), October 01, 1999.

Ray - nice, thoughtful piece. You should try to publish it somewhere.

...I'm afraid the Great Experiment is coming to an end, let's hope when we repair everything, we repair it with the last 20 years in mind...

-- mar (derigueur2@aol.com), October 01, 1999.

Amen, amen and AMEN Ray!

Like Ancient Israel before her, America has become a corrupt and compromising nation of complainers, whiners, adulterors, manipulators and selfish. She, like her ancient predecessor has combined the purity of her purpose with the evil around her and became corrupt from within.

Like Ancient Israel, America has become a whore, forgetting her roots and doctrine...and will therefore as God has done countless times before with His chosen people; allow us to be destroyed and our remnant taken into captivity.

A much more evil system will fill the vacuum of our annihilation. A system that promises a return to the former days...and in reality will bring untold suffering and calamity to the point that if a strong hand from someplace did not save us from ourselves...no flesh on this planet would be saved alive.

Yes, mourn the loss of our once great nation.

I can't help but notice a striking similarity with what has happened to us as a nation and the Prolouge to the novel of Star Wars written in 1976. Since everyone is familiar with the fantasy film, and the characters within, and some would rather a work of pure fiction be a basis for ideology than scripture...the rise of the Evil Galactic Empire in place of the Old Republic is quite prophetic to what may take the place of our once great nation.

All I can say is wolves in sheep's clothing. Replace the title "Old Republic" with "America" and see if you notice the similarities.

"The Old Republic was the Republic of legend, greater than distance or time. No need to note where it was or whence it cam, only to know that...it was the Republic.

"Once under the wise rule of the Senate and the protection of the Jedi Knights, the republic throve and grew. But as often happens when wealth and power pass beyond the admirable and attain the awesome, then appear those evil ones who have greed to match.

"So it was with the Republic at it's height. Like the greatest of trees, able to withstand any external attack, the Republic rotted from within though the danger was not visible from the outside.

"Aided and abetted by restless, power-hungry individuals within the government, and the massive organs of commerce, the ambitious Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic. He promised to reunite the disaffected from among the people and to restore the remembered glory of the Republic.

"Once secure in office he declared himself Emperor, shutting himself away from the populace. Soon he was controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he had appointed to high office, and the cries of the people did not reach his ears.

"Having exterminated through treachery and deception the Jedi Knights, guardians of justice in the galaxy, the Imperial govenors and bureaucrats prepared to institute a reign of terror among the disheartened worlds of the galaxy. Many used the Imperial forces and the name of the Emperor to further their own personal ambitions.

"But a small number of systems rebelled at these new outrages. Declaring themselves opposed to the New Order they began the great battle to restore the Old Republic.

"From the beginning they were vastly outnumbered by the systems held in thrall by the Emperor. In those first dark days it seemed certain the bright flame of resistance would be extinguished before it could cast the light of new truth across a galaxy of oppressed and beaten peoples..."

From the First Saga - Journal of the Whills

Star Wars by George Lucas

Now, anyone notice the possible similarities of Palpatine to Clinton?

It's sci-fi I know, but these days, life in America is surreal at best.

RIP.

Like the greatest of trees able to withstand any external attack, she has rotted from within. And though the damage was not apparent,

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), October 01, 1999.

Thank You!

-- claurann (claurann@aol.com), October 01, 1999.

It just could be that a mighty sword is coming.

...and they said unto the mountains and unto the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come; and who is able to stand?"

-- i dont know either (but.i.believe@rev6:16.kjv), October 01, 1999.

Yes, I'm the author. I can't help but express my feelings on what I think is going on. This and a few other pieces are being included in a work I'm trying to assemble. Don't know if I'll ever get it finished or not, but it's good therapy for me at least.

-- Ray (shusters@montanasky.net), October 01, 1999.

Bravo! Wonderful! I haven't the words to express how moved I am. You have painted a graphic, verbal picture of what this once great country has become. I am grateful that I am old enough to have seen my country when it was much better than it is today and I grieve for the little children who will never know it as it was. Because I remember, I still feel chills and tears fill my eyes when the National Anthem is played; but now I am embarrassed for my country and feel great shame for what America has become.

-- Nadine Zint (nadine@hillsboro.net), October 01, 1999.

Awesome piece Ray. I hope it ends up being mostly hyperbole, but you get the Golden Pen award nonetheless.

-- a (a@a.a), October 01, 1999.

Yes do finish these works of your Ray. For posterity. And as a Witness.

You serve us well with reminders such as these.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), October 01, 1999.

In my dream, I hear the screams of my ancestry. My blood flows red among the fields, mingled with the buffalo carcasses, lead and steel have torn buffalo and ancestors alike to bits. I hear the screams of those darker than I am, chained and bound, stolen from their homes, as they are whipped and beaten while they pick bits of fiber from the plants that cover what where once hunting and burial grounds.

The flatlanders have purchased this land from some obscure god - they try to explain their god to us, but we can only laugh at their silliness. They move among the plains and fields and forests in search of more of our kind to feed to their god, a hunger that will not be sated until the entire world is covered with an ocean of blood.

Today the white demons weep for their lost innocence, but their weeping is misguided. They have raped this fine land, they poison it with their greed and engines. They pray to this obscure god of theirs to deliver them from their own foolishness, and complain to each other that this god does not seem to care. They complain that their "ethics" and "morals" have been lost in a swirl of chaos, but they never had these "ethics" and "morals" to begin with. They do not seem to understand that that the only "ethic" or "moral" that exists in the world is to be one with the world. They have been deluded into believing that they live outside of or above the world, and do not understand that it is the world and themselves that "will destroy you with an unquenchable fire with the fury of a thousand hells," not their obscure god.

I will not weep for these silly white demons when they are forced to live without their idiot box and their golden arches and they starve amid their misfortune. They know nothing of their own history, only jingoistic tales they have been told about their cruel forebears. If they understood their own past, they would either weep out of humility, or rip their own flesh with lead and steel. Instead they keep repeating their ancient myths that they were "wrested from despotism and evil rule," when in fact, all they did was transfer that evil to another continent, and destroy the civilizations that already existed there.

They believe that their ancestors "fought and won freedom and independence in blood," but they have never known what freedom and independence are, only slavery and death. They say that "the people cheered this new land of theirs while mourning the deaths of those who had paid the ultimate price for their beliefs," really, these people stole this land with their lead and steel, and have not mourned those from whom they stole it.

They say that "newcomers" to this land were "welcomed and each was offered the same chance through hard work, determination and respect for their fellow man," when most of them were treated like chattel and reviled as they found their own little piece of land to steal. They say that "years went by and slowly an insidious evil crept into the hearts of the people," when that evil was there from the moment they set foot on this land. These demons are so deluded that they even believe that what they stole "beckoned across the waters as a shining example of truth, liberty and freedom," when in fact from the beginning they tried to, and have largely succeeded at raping and pillaging to the point of destruction. What beckoned across the waters was the smell of blood for more of them to come taste.

No, this beast in whose belly they reside is a beast of their own making, and I will not mourn them when they are finally digested. They will burn by a fire of their own making, not that of their silly god, and I will release an offering of praise to the winds when I hear their screams of pain. I hear the screams of pain of my ancestors every time I lay my head down, and to hear these demons screaming in the pain of their own doing will finally drown out the screaming I hear every night.

I have been patient for my ancestors. We have waited 25 generations, and now some of these demons are afraid. They say that their destruction might begin in three short months. After 500 years, I say, it's about time. I hope their suffering is slow and they have the opportunity to savor each pang of hunger and each drop of their own blood. They might take me with them, but I do not care. I will be reunited with my ancestors, and we will finally laugh at these demons' foolishness.

I will be satisfied.

-- (dirty@red.injun), October 01, 1999.

In a true moral society, the concept of ethics and morality springs from the belief in a system of rewards and punishment, in this life and the life hereafter. Anything less is an attempt at human self righteousness, whether red, yellow, white or black it is all the same and doomed to failure.

History is replete with examples of slavery, death and destruction in every culture. Nation rises against nation and conquers the inhabitants within. Cultures are replaced and the process repeats itself. This is the cycle of humanity. I don't apologize for what is. Ideals are set forth by the conquering nation only to be set aside by the new conquerors. American (red, white, yellow and black) have been conquered again, from within, by avarice and greed and absolute power.

Your own blood lust gives you away and reveals your true humanity (or lack thereof). You may get what you seek, but the outcome is not going to be what you desire.

-- Ray (shusters@montanasky.net), October 01, 1999.

RAY: Very beautifully done! A reminder to all on these threads that in the over-200 years of the Republic, there has never been this great a number alive who have NOT lived through a Great Depression. In fact, this is the longest time span without one. But is this because it is the NEW ERA as espoused by the jackals of the press? NO! Quite simply, it is because, like it or not, our turn is coming, and FAST.There will NOT be any historical exception.

-- profit_of_doom (doom@helltopay.ca), October 01, 1999.

Ray: Excellent. A great testimony.

Dirty red injun: God never gives one people over to another, displaces a people from the land which they occupy and call their own without first giving them hundreds of years to clean up their act. Like it or not, God owns it all - all the cattle and all the gold on a thousand hills. Your people don't own it, nor do mine, nor do Bill Clintons' but God-Almighty, Jehovah. Those who are blessed know this: It is the ultimate purpose of life to give glory to Him who alone who is worthy of all glory, Jesus Christ and His Father. God will not be mocked by modern America worshipping their gods' of materialism, sex, television, government, automobiles, etc., etc. just as He would not be mocked by the earlier inhabitants who worshipped the creation instead of the Creator. Nor does He put up with child sacrifice, infanticide, abortion, virgin sacrifice, etc. etc. When nations begin down this path it is the begining of the end. But no one will be able to convince the sleeping blind of any of this.

"Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you. For the land is defiled; therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inhabitants" Leviticus 19:24&25

blessings

sdb

-- S. David Bays (SDBAYS@prodigy.net), October 02, 1999.

"Dirty" (aptly-named),

You might wish to spend some time on the rez before you presume to speak for Native Americans. If Y2K is more than a BITR, it is the most indigent of our society who will suffer first and hardest. If Y2K is more than a BITR, it could possibly do to the N.A. people what anthrax-seeded blankets did not accomplish...their total annihalation. As for their laughing at the suffering of "White Demons", I have yet to meet a N.A. who would find joy in anyone's suffering. Those who have experienced deep sorrows are the least likely among us to hope for sorrow to be visited upon others.

-- RUOK (RUOK@yesiam.com), October 02, 1999.

. . .At the risk of being flamed as being "ultimately" politically incorrect, and with no disrespect meant to Ray (above), the first paragraph of this thread is [only IMO] pure "myth": the pure "'myth' of America". It is the same "myth" that allows "us Americans" to "run our 'racket'" on any other peoples "we" care to-- past or present. Again, IMO, it is the perennial attitude typified by Mr. S. David Bays (above) of "God-Almighty--Jehovah" that also has allowed "us Americans" to run our racket on any other peoples we have cared to, past or present. AGAIN: this is just my own personal opinion offered as counterpoint. If you don't like it, don't go wack-o on me; just state your own.

RE the post by "dirty"-- while I am a "wasp", I can empathize with you have written. A Public Broadcasting Service series production a number of years ago on "How the West Was Lost", opens up the conversation (for those of us brought up on a total diet of a "myth" about America) about the role that Christianized Eurocentrism played in the destruction of the native peoples who lived on this land before fourteen-hundred-and-ninety-two. There is an observation, attributed to Chief Seattle, that the difference between the red man and the white man is that the red man thinks everything is alive and the white man thinks everything is dead.

I don't claim to have the inside track on whatever "the truth" is, but I think that whatever "the truth" is, as well as "whatever" "God" is, is far greater, larger, and infathomable than we "two-leggeds" can wrap our minds around.

So how does all this relate to "Y2K"? For me, IMHO, it's all in the infinite interconnectivity of things. And to me, the "pure essence" of the so-called Y2K "problem" in all its manifestations, is about the hubris of trying to control the infinite man-made interconnectivity of things.

When people live in "sacred spaces", "sacred circles", or in sacred places-- physical or psychological-- people are not inclined to live out of harmony with the nature of their spaces, circles, or places or with the other beings who share their spaces, circles, or places with them.

-- Dewer Dye (qwerty@!!!!.xnet), October 02, 1999.

Ray,

Babylon is the "System" and like why-not said, we should not have built the "System" on sand.

America is the "Great Nation" promised to Joseph,the son of Israel. the father of Ephraim and Mannasah.

We were warned that "grievous wolves" would come in to destroy us and now we can see that they have been very effective. They lose and Freedom will rise to the top, as it always does, and the Bankers will suffer the consequence of their greedy actions.

JFK attempted to override the Federal Reserve Bank by issueing US Silver notes and suffered for it. He called the Federal Reserve the "most corrupt and evil organization in the world.

(Exo 15:3 KJV) "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name."

We win!

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), October 02, 1999.

Thank you Dewer Dye for this paragraph and the rest of your post:

. . .At the risk of being flamed as being "ultimately" politically incorrect, and with no disrespect meant to Ray (above), the first paragraph of this thread is [only IMO] pure "myth": the pure "'myth' of America". It is the same "myth" that allows "us Americans" to "run our 'racket'" on any other peoples "we" care to-- past or present. Again, IMO, it is the perennial attitude typified by Mr. S. David Bays (above) of "God-Almighty--Jehovah" that also has allowed "us Americans" to run our racket on any other peoples we have cared to, past or present. AGAIN: this is just my own personal opinion offered as counterpoint. If you don't like it, don't go wack-o on me; just state your own.

I loathe xenophobic 'them-us' nonsense masquerading as 'ultimate truth'. Dewer, have you read any of the writings of Daniel Quinn, Ishmael, The Story of B, My Ishmael? He has a similar take on the story (myth)that 'modern culture-Mother Culture' is built upon.

Anyone interested in reading about the myths that explain to us "Why we are here," and "How things got to be this way," can read other understandings at:

http://www.ishmael.org The Ishmael Network

or pick up the books,....start with Ishmael, followed by The Story of B

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), October 02, 1999.

I fear the loss of America that we bemoan never existed save in our propaganda.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), October 02, 1999.

Thank you Ray, thank you INVAR, thank you "dirtyredinjun." You all have said things that we need to take heed.

While you all write eloquently, let's remember that it's all too easy to romanticise the past. The Natives are done no justice when they are hailed as "the noble savage"--at best a white man's construction and at worst an excuse for the white man to coerce Natives toward white man's plans. There's no denying that the NAtive American got the short end of the stick and that they were largely exterminated by the European settlers. But that is only because the Europeans had better weapons. The Natives would have done the same if they had half a chance to each other and to the Europeans. They too committed acts of great cruelty.

Ray's writing did not mention much the slavery or extermination programs endorsed by our very own government. We were the world's biggest hypocrites by committing these crimes and all the while speaking of "liberty" and "equality before the law" and so on.

The bottom line, though, is that the Constitution made by these flawed men is predicated on the tendency for people to be corrupted by power and greed. They knew they were bad. They knew they could be better. That is why the designed the Law they way they did. That is why the American dream of freedom for all has very nearly been realized, if it weren't for one small detail:

The American people don't want freedom anymore.

They want safety, security, wealth, and privilege. They no longer want to be "equal before the law" but superior to the law. They see this time is the end of history where neither progress nor decline is possible. As soon we have attained the freedom our ancestors fought so hard for, we are running back to our lovely, shiney, gilded cages, head over heels...

-- coprolith (coprolith@rocketship.com), October 02, 1999.

Can we ever get these off ?

-- mr x (x@x.x), October 02, 1999.

There's an expression for what you describe in your last paragraph, coprolith,...golden handcuffs.

And while I agree that the stereotype of the 'noble savage' is chimera, the indigenous peoples inhabiting most places on the planet did not seek to exterminate other cultures, as did the imperialists, and those laboring under the delusional dream of manifest destiny. They still don't...they may defend their territory to the death when attacked, but most of their violence is small scale (village to village) or within their own village to settle disputes. Far more fun to humiliate the opposition, use non-lethal methods to 'count coup' or other shows of strength. They did not and do not attempt to annihilate or assimilate those of other cultures. Religious nationalism is a peculiar bend in human culture's road particular to the 'modern' and 'civilized'. The thousands of older cultures have no words or even images of such constructs.

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), October 02, 1999.

Very few people are aware of our identity as a people, and why we have been allowed to become the greatest nation on earth.

Mark Hillyard is correct when he describes our biblical heritage as a people. To Injun and others of that ideological persuasion, this nation was not stolen, but given as a birthright promise to our forefathers. You may not recognize the power of the great Spirit that enabled this nation to greatness, but ask yourself how it would have been possible with our own hands? On our own as a people, we could have never been able to achieve what we have without the blessings from On High. The world has been blessed by our bounty, ingenuity and freedom. But, as with Israel before her, America will suffer for its mounting sins before God, and the world will be cursed, as we are cursed by our own iniquity as a people.

The ancient warnings of God, and yes even the warnings from your ancestors Injun, have been ignored. The woe we are soon to reap will be that of which will be unparralelled in all history.

Golden handcuffs yes. A golden ball gag also willingly applied to the shackles of slavery already upon our necks.

What system arises from our ashes will be no less evil than that of the Evil Galactic Empire. Perhaps sans the planet-busting Death Star, they will ultimately bring the world to the brink of total annihilation.

It will make the iniquity of our people past and present, tame in comparison.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), October 02, 1999.

God never gives one people over to another, displaces a people from the land which they occupy and call their own without first giving them hundreds of years to clean up their act.

You really ought to get into comedy Dave! That's about the funniest thing I've ever read here. Justification for the destruction of an entire people. It's OK, they aren't Christians, mow 'em down, they worship wrong! So do your Christian duty and destroy them. What a guy that God of yours is. A peach.

. To Injun and others of that ideological persuasion, this nation was not stolen, but given as a birthright promise to our forefathers. You may not recognize the power of the great Spirit that enabled this nation to greatness, but ask yourself how it would have been possible with our own hands? On our own as a people, we could have never been able to achieve what we have without the blessings from On High.

INVAR, you never fail to amaze me. I ask you, how would it have been possible without the slaughter of the native peoples? Why don't we carry that idiotic idea to it's logical conclusion and nuke every country on Earth except those who pray "right"? Screw those Jews, Hitler was only doing the Lords work, right guys? They reject the Son, so gas and burn 'em! The shits, they asked for it! Come on guys, let's do what we can to encourage Washington DC to declare war on all non Christian nations, so that we can claim our blessed birthright, I mean, they HAVE had hundreds of years to clean up their act haven't they? I say fuck 'em, bring on the nukes!

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), October 03, 1999.

America will suffer for its mounting sins before God, and the world will be cursed, as we are cursed by our own iniquity as a people.

It sounds to me, Invar, as if you truly understand the meaning of suffering. Sounds like your pain is very great, that you have suffered intensely. I understand how easy it becomes to project all that pain and suffering outward, and to clearly see the image of the pain and suffering in the creator universe. I hope you have someone near you, a loved one, who can comfort you when all that pain wells up inside you, for those times,... and can hug you, and tell you that you are okay just as you are.

Be well...

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), October 03, 1999.

You're overheating tonight Unc.

But to answer your query, yes...the slaughter of the hostile natives was necessary. However, how we treated the tribes that were amiable to us is a shame on our history.

I will suggest that the history of man shows the perpetual annihilation of one another regardless of creed, color, national origin or religion. Man's inhumanity against man is the only true thing that is non-discriminatory. It proves than mankind is not capable of governing himself without hardship being wrought on one another. Traditional Christianity included.

However, it take a religious moral code to fence-in our conduct. Moral code coming from the Judeao-Christian tenets found is scripture and no where else. Western laws are founded on these principles. They are immutible, they are spirit. And with that moral code in-hand, God yet told His people to "go in and take the land that He shall give them."

I don't care if you don't like that fact and you think it idiotic. I'd invite you to read Numbers and Joshua to get a perspective on how God commanded His people to drive out the inhabitants of Canaan, even to the point of killing every man,woman, child and animal that stood in their way. Eventually Israel was punished for not following those commands to the letter. And again, too bad if you think that is crap. Where do you think the notion of "It is wrong to murder" came from? It certainly didn't come from the depth of man's own heart I can tell you. So if God gave the Law, He can certainly tell a nation to "Wipe out the inhabitants before them". BTW, it is "Thou shall not MURDER"...not thou shall not kill...so there is no contradiction.

I'm not saying God told our forefathers to do likewise, but we as a people were imbued with a manifest destiny, and I can tell you we would NEVER have had a United States if God hadn't allowed us to do the things we did to forge the nation. I think it is ludicrous that you suggest folk like me think we should nuke other nations because they don't pray the way we do, just because I recognize God's hand in our history. I remain as I stated: this nation was GIVEN to us as a birthright blessing from God.

You are welcome to argue the wisdom of the Almighty. Just please do it when I'm not around.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), October 03, 1999.

My pain Donna is that we have spit in the face of our Creator's blessings and have pissed-away our Freedom to the shackles of slavery.

There is no projection of my personal pain in that above statement. I am grieved to my soul that this nation has flushed itself down the toilet. I think I can understand how Jesus felt when He beheld Jerusalem from the Mount and wept aloud crying "Jerusalem, Jerusalem! If only you knew the hour of your visitation (speaking of the destruction of the city in 70A.D. when mothers ate their own children in the Roman seige)."

America will suffer for her sins against the Almighty. You can pretend it's some kind of mental delusion on my part, I don't care....but Judgement is coming regardless...and we will have done it all to ourselves.

In other words Donna, we will deserve what's coming. Crack open a Bible and read it for yourself. Try Lamentations for starters, and tell me God doesn't deal with His people harshly for disobedience. Always allowing their own sins and sloth to consume them without rescue.

This is not hate, but tough love. I am going to suffer and die right alongside the rest of the slothful in this country, so I'm under no illusion I'm better than anyone else.

If I didn't have love for you, and Unc and the rest of this fast- asleep nation Donna, I wouldn't even bother posting this stuff. I got better, more personal, selfish things I could be doing besides setting myself up for ridicule and scorn by speaking the plain truth.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), October 03, 1999.

I see. In that case let me recommend a book that addresses the human evil that seems to absorb a great amount of your thinking.

"The People of The Lie", by M. Scott Peck, author also of "The Road Less Traveled". Both are quite edifying.

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), October 03, 1999.

Dewer Dye wrote: "it is the perennial attitude typified by Mr. S. David Bays (above) of "God- Almighty--Jehovah" that also has allowed "us Americans" to run our racket on any other peoples "

sdb responds: Sorry Dewar, you are OFF POINT. If this were a court of law, the judge would have thrown your case out of court. You have erected a straw man, consisting of your biasis against Christianity, and claimed that it is the Christians who "running their racket", in collusion with God, killed all the Indians. Nice try.

Donna wrote: "I loathe xenophobic 'them-us' nonsense masquerading as 'ultimate truth'."

sdb: Huh?

SDB wrote: "God never gives one people over to another, displaces a people from the land which they occupy and call their own without first giving them hundreds of years to clean up their act."

De da responded: "You really ought to get into comedy Dave! That's about the funniest thing I've ever read here. Justification for the destruction of an entire people. It's OK, they aren't Christians, mow 'em down, they worship wrong! So do your Christian duty and destroy them. What a guy that God of yours is. A peach."

sdb responds: Shame on you De da. No where do Christians claim authority to "mow down" or "destroy" as you alledge and you know it. They did, to the best of their ability, try to introduce the native Indians, to their King and Saviour, Jesus. So that they, along with S. David Bays and Dewar and De da and Donna could be saved from their own sinfullness and vileness and be made perfect and acceptable before a perfect and righteous and holy God. Note: "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb ...crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"". ....the holy bible, Revelation 7:9&10.

You see, de da, we Christians know that we have brothers and sisters IN CHRIST from all tribes of the earth. But if you don't humble yourself before God's throne, de da, you won't be there. Something to think about. The salvation of your soul is worth more than the price of your pridefull in-God's-face defiance. Dewar wrote: "How the West Was Lost", opens up the conversation (for those of us brought up on a total diet of a "myth" about America) about the role that Christianized Eurocentrism played in the destruction of the native peoples who lived on this land before fourteen-hundred-and-ninety-two."

sdb responds: I think you've become a victim of Public Broadcasting (government funded TV), National Public Radio (government funded radio, socialist- liberal professors, modern deconstructionism (another word for anarchy and moral relativism), plain muddled thinking and historical revisionism.

Again Dewar, you are OFF Point. Try to separate your angst against Christianity and your biased interpretation of historical events regarding the European and the Indian. I don't have time here to go into all your mis-assumptions and ignorance of Indian history before the white man came. Donna, if you want to read a great book, try reading the bible. But you really must put away your antagonism towards God and begin by being honest with yourself. You need a Savour to cleanse you from the evilness that is in your heart. ALL HISTORY will atest to the fact that this evilness is in ALL MEN/WOMEN, hence this discussion. But only Christianity deals with this problem. If you approach God with an honest, sincere heart, you will be surprised because He does condescend to respond to even you. We serve a God who is approachable and who responds and who answers prayer but He will not hear you except through His Son, Jesus Christ.

Blessings.

sdb.

-- S. David Bays (SDBAYS@prodigy.net), October 03, 1999.

Some of you God people would be really quite amusing, if you weren't so damn dangerous! Jeeze, go to church this morning or something, will ya? And pay attention this time!

"What system arises from our ashes will be no less evil than that of the Evil Galactic Empire. Perhaps sans the planet-busting Death Star, they will ultimately bring the world to the brink of total annihilation."

Invar, you're getting your obsessions mixed up. Star Wars is FICTION. Actually, most of that other stuff you're talking about is too.

-- (Oh@my.god!), October 03, 1999.

Something to think about. The salvation of your soul is worth more than the price of your pridefull in-God's-face defiance. --SDB

Idiot! Both of you are so full of yourselves that you cannot see that it is "pridefull in-YOUR INTERPRETATION OF GOD-face defiance" that I write. The fact that self-righteous evil ideas such as yours are permitted to speak for the Creator speaks quite poorly of Him.

If you fail to live up to his will you are cast to rot forever in utter torment, after, of course, you and your peoples are murdered by his henchmen. And folks say that Hitler was evil? He was a novice! Why would one chose to spend eternity with the evil being that you both worship?

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), October 03, 1999.

"History is replete with examples of slavery, death and destruction in every culture. Nation rises against nation and conquers the inhabitants within. Cultures are replaced and the process repeats itself. This is the cycle of humanity. I don't apologize for what is. Ideals are set forth by the conquering nation only to be set aside by the new conquerors."

Spoken like a true National Socialist! Sieg heil!

"I think you've become a victim of Public Broadcasting (government funded TV), National Public Radio (government funded radio, socialist- liberal professors..."

Yes, its those damned liberal professors! I say, BURN THEM ALL, and let almight God sort them out, later!

-- alan (foo@bar.com), October 03, 1999.

Uncle deda:

I guess you're sorry that God had to send in the Spanish Conquistadors on the Aztecs. I guess it's all right with you that the Aztecs sacrificed as many as 10,000 at a time or more to their gods. They especially loved to sacrifice baby children, virgin young girls and women in general. The men they just killed as they plundered the neighboring towns and villages. The north American Indians weren't much better. On the whole, except for a minority of peaceful tribes, most were fond of committing acts that would make even the most hardened of todays criminals blanch. I guess you're sorry that the Aztec model is not still around today. Wake up.

By the Way, when you attack me, you are attacking the Word of God and God Himself. I'm am simply sharing with you what the Word teaches. God is Just, Righteous and Holy. If you go to Him without an attitude, He'll even be merciful to deda.

Bless you,

sdb.

-- S. David Bays (SDBAYS@prodigy.net), October 03, 1999.

Ide as That Have Harmed Mankind

The War Prayer (1904), Mark Twain

"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle--be thou near them!...O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief....For our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it in the spirit of love, of Him who is the Source of Love, and who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all who are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen"


-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), October 03, 1999.

I guess it's all right with you that the Aztecs sacrificed as many as 10,000 at a time or more to their gods. They especially loved to sacrifice baby children, virgin young girls and women in general. The men they just killed as they plundered the neighboring towns and villages. The north American Indians weren't much better. On the whole, except for a minority of peaceful tribes, most were fond of committing acts that would make even the most hardened of todays criminals blanch.

What was wrong with that, Dave? It was a GOOD thing, after all, none of them were Christians were they? No harm done, in fact it was a favor to God, wasn't it, ridding the earth of heathens. Made it easer for the Christian warriors and murderers to claim their blessed birthright, didn't it?

By the way, I don't really mean that, evil is evil is evil, no matter which god calls for it. Even the God that you interpret Dave, evil is as evil does, doing it in the name of God does not lessen the evil of vile acts.

Time for you to re-read the Gospels.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), October 03, 1999.

As part (1/8) Cherokee, I really resent the idea of manifest destiny and the way so many "heroes" became enshrined in history on a level commensurate with their cruelty. Andrew Jackson, for example. A real crooked villian, if you ask me. His face should be on toilet paper, not the 20 dollar bill. The faces of Indian-killing leaders (Mt. Rushmore) carved into the holiest of holy places for Lakota Sioux is also a travesty. If I were a Lakota, I'd look at that monument as the ultimate Spit in the Face. If I weren't a decent, law-abiding citizen who also happened to admire some of the achievements of these figures, I'd blow it up with dynamite.

God promised America to whom? Tbe white Christians? The white male landowner non-Jewish, non-Mormon, non-Catholic, non-Orthodox Christians? Sounds like malarkey to me.

The settlement of the West by Europeans was many things--a clash of cultures that could not relate to one another--sometimes outright genocide--sometimes peaceful coexistence--sometimes a guerilla war-- sometimes an unwitting biological war (Natives falling to Old World diseases)--somestiems a deliberate biological war (British giving smallpox-infected blankets to Indians loyal to France)....But nowhere did I hear about the heavens opening up and a booming Voice telling the European colonists that they had the right to plunder the land the way they did. We could still have been a great country--greater, even--if we had simply lived up to our ideals a little more and recognized earlier the humanity in the Indians and women and blacks who never had a chance.

What's done is done, though. I still am proud of the sacrifices made by the patriots in the Revolution and of their brilliant contribution to our government. And I still believe that maximization of freedom is the highest ideal for laws. But the story of America was a complex one, and the only way to really learn from history (in a way that we are not doomed to repeat it) is to look it at honestly, warts and all. Can we teach the value of freedom and teach that our former heroes were "only human?" Absolutely. That's my whole point. Respect for another's freedom is the basis for all that is good and the highest form of love. The more we did this, the more we as a nation were blessed.

-- coprolith (coprolith@rocketship.com), October 03, 1999.

Donna wrote: The War Prayer (1904), Mark Twain "O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle--be thou near them!...O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief....For our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it in the spirit of love, of Him who is the Source of Love, and who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all who are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen"

sdb responds: First off, since we know that Mark Twain, although a great storyteller in his prime and though he had a Christian wife (like deda, I think) had hardened his heart toward God and we are told that Twain spent his last years a very depressed, unhappy and bitter man. It would not surprise me if Mark Twain invented this "prayer" out of whole cloth as he was so inclined and want to do or at least added his embellishments.

2nd: If I were called out to war (which I am not) against what I thought was an evil empire (which is how I view America, my homeland, now) I myself might be motivated to pray this prayer and let God sort out how much of it He would grant.

3rd: Donna, I think you and de da are missing the whole point. We Christians are not claiming to be pure and righteous but just the opposite. We realize that all of our righteousness is as filthy rags before a Holy God and we flat out need to be saved from ourselves. Please get this. WE (SDB, DONNA, DEDA AND ALL OF US) NEED TO BE SAVED FROM OUR ROTTING SELVES. Only Jesus offers this. Please re- read the gospels.

4th: Please, no more straw dogs. It avoids discussing the real issues.

Deda: See above and please re-read the gospels, then go straight to Revelation and try to soak in chapters 6 and 7 for starters.

Donna and deda: May you discover that your name is written in the Lambs book of Life. If you do, you will give glory to our Lord, His Majesty, Jesus the Messiah.

blessings

sdb

-- S. David Bays (SDBAYS@prodigy.net), October 03, 1999.

3rd: Donna, I think you and de da are missing the whole point.

Uh, no. I have not missed your point at all. I have no need of your salvationist screed. My point was that that same body of mind-numbing dogma goes hand in glove with blind and zealous nationalism, racism, sexism, etc., etc., ad infinitum and ad nauseum. This thread began as a an epic opera on the 'holiness' of 'America', the god-given mandate for 'manifest destiny', and long may She wave, blah, blah, blah. I could hear the mind-snapping-slamming all the way over here on the west coast. Same-same.

It would not surprise me if Mark Twain invented this "prayer" out of whole cloth as he was so inclined and want to do or at least added his embellishments.

Well, you got that one right. Good for you. He did make it up, a satirical translation of so many common 'war prayers'spoken 5 thousand years of human history.

Someone once said: 'if 3 million people think a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.' Dogmatic recitation does not equal thinking Lovelies.

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), October 03, 1999.

Donna wrote: "My point was that that same body of mind-numbing dogma goes hand in glove with blind and zealous nationalism, racism, sexism, etc., etc., ad infinitum and ad nauseum"

sdb responds: Donna, you must have missed it, so I'll quote it here one more time. Rev. 7:9&10 ...After these things I looked, and behold, a great multittude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, ...(10) and crying out witha loud voice, saying "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb".

Christians cannot hold racist beliefs if they believe the bible, if they do, they are sinning. The bible itself, by the above passage, is just one of a number of passages that tell us that our brothers and sisters In Christ (who say YES to Jesus) will come from all the nations and tribes of the earth. I, myself, have close brothers and sisters in Christ who are black, oriental (Chinese, Japanese, Indonesian), Jewish, Anglo and even American Indian. I myself, sdb, have European, American Indian, Jewish and God only knows what other blood I have. But I am only saved by the blood of Jesus.

I don't see how you can make a racist thing out of the Bible. It's just not there.

Donna said: "This thread began as a an epic opera on the 'holiness' of 'America', the god-given mandate for 'manifest destiny', and long may She wave, blah, blah, blah".

sdb responds: I disagree. I thought it was a well written piece that shows how far we have fallen as a nation not that we were ever perfect as Caprolith so elequently put it:

"What's done is done, though. I still am proud of the sacrifices made by the patriots in the Revolution and of their brilliant contribution to our government. And I still believe that maximization of freedom is the highest ideal for laws. But the story of America was a complex one, and the only way to really learn from history (in a way that we are not doomed to repeat it) is to look it at honestly, warts and all. Can we teach the value of freedom and teach that our former heroes were "only human?" Absolutely. That's my whole point"

blessings on you and your house Donna

sdb

-- S. David Bays (SDBAYS@prodigy.net), October 03, 1999.

Donna:

Not only does it show how far we have fallen but that we are now, as a nation, deserving of God's Judgement. Those of us who know how God thinks, because He has told us in the Bible how he thinks, know that America is due for a comeuppance as Ray so elequently wrote. There is no pride or vengeance in this. Ray as well as many Christians all over America sense that America is about to reap God's wrath.

Rather than pride and hubris, I see Christians repenting and turning from their wicked ways and praying and seeking Gods face. Let God rescue those who turn to Him in humility and prayer and if it will speed the coming of our Lord and His perfect Kingdom which He has promised that the saints will inherit, then let America go down.

Praise Jesus, who alone is worthy of all glory and honor.

sdb.

-- S. David Bays (SDBAYS@prodigy.net), October 03, 1999.

SDB, anytime you want to have a dialogue on human history and human future without referring to the Bible, using only your ability to think, I'd be thrilled to participate. I'm curious whether you can discuss this without a bible verse every third sentence or so, (or a bible verse paraphrase).

Read the old testament again. It is one long ethnocentric/racist/misogynist diatribe justifying violence against anybody who didn't toe the mark. Pretty clever but common and ineffective to switch over to the 'love books' of the new testament when confronted with that fact in discussion.

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), October 03, 1999.

Donna:

I probably cannot match you wit for wit. You are probably very smart. I admire that alot. I have always been fascinated by bright, intelligent women. But I don't mistake intellect for foolishness. However, I think you need to re-read the old testament because you make the same mistake that so many do. I read the old testament and I was blown away by the love of God, His tolerance and mercy. God never changes. Always the same, 10,000 years ago and 10,000 years from now will still be the same.

Sorry, I'm not interested in your whatevercentric books written by men who don't have a clue. I have fallen in love with a man name Jesus. He appeared to me one night in a dream. He appeared to me as he appeared to Joshua, with His sword upraised. He called on me to "Give (Him) the glory".

The Lord appeared to Joshua before Joshua was to lead the nation of Israel to do battle with Jericho. Joshua 5:13-15 ..."And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, A Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, "Are You for us or for our adversaries?" So He said, "No, but as Commander of the army of the LORD I have now come," And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, "What does my Lord say to His servant?" Then the Commander of the LORD's army said to Joshua, "Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy." And Joshua did so."

humbly submitted sdb

-- S. David Bays (SDBAYS@prodigy.net), October 03, 1999.

Thank you sbd,...I appreciate and understand the difference between intellect and wisdom. Sadly we are not even close to existing on the same planet, you and I. I was born, raised, and lived as an adult devoutly lutheran. I was director of music, and an evangelist for many years as an adult. I came to see that as a means of control, if an elite group can get the masses to believe in an 'invisible guy in the sky', they can get them to do, anything. I have no desire to 'change your mind.' I just don't care to be told that I need someone else's brand of mythology. Took me a long time to see the bars of the cage. I would not go back even if I could. You have your reality. I have mine. It's enough.

Peace,

--She in the sheet upon the hilltop,

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), October 03, 1999.

Bless you Donna:

I'll bet you and I have come to a few of the same conclusions (but you don't have to admit it) regarding Churchianity. Now, I agree, there is a difference between churchianity and having a relationship with the LORD and creator of this universe. But I'll leave it at that and I really do appreciate you, so much the more even, that you have revealed this little bit about yourself.

May His love woo you.

sdb

-- S. David Bays (SDBAYS@prodigy.net), October 03, 1999.

>>>"Read the old testament again. It is one long ethnocentric/racist/misogynist diatribe justifying violence against anybody who didn't toe the mark."<<<

What an unmitigated case of hubris on your part Donna. I didn't know that you were more holy and omnicient than the Almighty God of the Universe.

Yes, shame on Him for what He has done, and inspired to be written! Donna knows better!

But of course I'll assume you think scripture is a fairy-tale...to which it is impossible to have a debate.

This is why you believe there is no possibility in discussion about the "love books" of the new testament, and the apparent contradiction to the Old. You do not understand either.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), October 03, 1999.

But don't worry Donna, INVAR will set you right.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), October 03, 1999.

I have no pretensions about holiness. And, you and me, too, INVAR don't exist in the same uni-verse, any more than sdb and me. That's okay with me. We all pick out the most comfortable illusions to embrace as real, part and parcel of human cognitive/emotional development. And as the Cheshire Cat said to Alice:

"Think what you will."

All done now,...

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), October 03, 1999.

"Perhaps the inhabitants of Earth will blame [y2k on] the minor religion of Christianity for imposing its calendar? Interesting concept...people quoting apocalyptic passages from the New Testament and linking it to y2k. Didn't their guy start this problem - 2000 AD? Perhaps the Vatican will locate his birth certificate and discover he was conveniently born 28 years earlier... (the 1972 calendar matches the 2000 calendar - set everything back 28 years and let someone else worry about it)."

-- PNG (png@gol.com), October 03, 1999.