OT? I sure hope so - be prepared to puke

greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread

Saw some photos of the insanity that is happening in East Timor and thought we had better hope that Y2K does not allow this kind of violence to increase in other areas of the world. Just posted one here, but there are 5 other similar images at this link, for those who can handle it:
Timor photos




-- @ (@@@.@), September 28, 1999

Answers

And people say American kids are brats!!!! Maybe we could send AL-D over to preach to them!!! How about it AL?

-- (tomwaits@zensearch.net), September 28, 1999.

INSANITY!

-- Randolph (dinosaur@williams-net.com), September 28, 1999.

There's a 'heads-up' if ever I saw one.

-- Porky (Porky@in.cellblockD), September 28, 1999.

Are you sure that's not from the Brooklyn Museum Art Exibit? You know, the one where they threw shit on a likeness of the Virgin Mary? UM.. I think that photo was doctored. That head is way too big.

-- (sickofthis@crap.com), September 28, 1999.

Nope, it's real.. go look at the other ones.

-- @ (@@@.@), September 28, 1999.


A picture's worth a 1000 rounds of .223!

-- Bill (y2khippo@yahoo.com), September 28, 1999.

The people of East Timor do not have a patent on crap like this, a few years back in Rwanda, the history of the United States during the civil war on both sides this happened.

-- (tomwaits@zensearch.net), September 28, 1999.

"Golly gee! Things like that can't happen! This is trick photography! Isn't it?" - Flint

"Market forces are at work..market forces are ah I think I'm gonna hurl" - Decker

"We are now seeing a greater rate of beheadings than we will see during rollover" - Hoff

-- a (a@a.a), September 28, 1999.


The scary thing is this could be what happens to GI's who don't share their food with the DGI's. Remember, WE are the minority!

-- @ (@@@.@), September 28, 1999.

Sick,

I agree. The photo must be doctored. Not only is that head too big, but the people in the background are too small. I mean, look at the size of their heads. If the guy holding the head is, let's say, 5'10, then those other folks must be what, 2' tall? Definitely doctored in my opinion.

-- NokternL (nokternl@anywhereusa.com), September 28, 1999.



a - LOL! LOL! That's great...especially Decker!

Is that why they call it a "rollover"? - because heads are gonna roll?

-- @ (@@@.@), September 28, 1999.


Nahh, those guys look more like DAY TRADERS to me, after a rough time on Wall Street. The dude without a body was known as giving "bearish" advice regarding gold.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), September 28, 1999.

Nok

A wide angle lens would distort the perspective of a close in shot like that one. Real IMHO.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), September 28, 1999.


Is that what Koskinen will look like when people don't get their welfare checks?

-- @ (@@@.@), September 28, 1999.

Heheh Unc. Yeah I know. I was just throwin' a bit sarcasm back at Sick. :) I have no doubt that these are real.

-- NokternL (nokternl@anywhereusa.com), September 28, 1999.


How does that song go, back in the late 60's: "yes I'm going out of my head, yes I'm losing my head over you......"

-- You Asked For It (youaskedforit@youaskedforit.xcom), September 28, 1999.

I think you should have given us a choice to see this. Doctored or no, thank you for some new inspiration for tonight's batch of nightmares. BTW, it is possible for your head to be conscious for up to several minutes after decapitation. I cannot think of a more horrifying fate.

-- nobody (disgusting@puke.net), September 29, 1999.

My ex lived without a head for years. But to answer your question, no, once the nerves are cut, the head is "dead" quicker then you can say, "gee I should of had a V8"

-- (tomwaits@zensearch.net), September 29, 1999.

"Head hunters" East Timor style!

PS No gun used (gun control advocates), just a sharp machette.

-- Bill (y2khippo@yahoo.com), September 29, 1999.


Nok

Understood, looking for my sarcasm hat now.

tom

Not true, as was proved during the French Revolution. The particulars are a bit muddy right now, but it was shown to be so after an unfortunate fellow met his maker on the Guillotine. After the head "rolled" the mans name was shouted, and his eyes opened and fixed on the shouter.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), September 29, 1999.


Check out the 5th photo down at the linked page. The cop is giving the guy a high-five for bringing in a head on a stick. It's easy for them to smile when they're not the one's on a stick! Gang mentality is pretty scary stuff when the adrenalin gets going.

-- @ (@@@.@), September 29, 1999.

First off tom, why don't you get the fuck off Al-D's case. Second, this same thing happened in World War II. There'e a book on the Bataan Death March, that told about two American brothers who were in this "march". If I remember correctly it was the elder brother who watched his younger brother be decapitated by the Japanese soldier.

But decapitating people was a big favorite of the Japanese. They would put the heads on fences.

And I can't believe these people who don't understand Depth in photos.

-- About to Puke (Sick@sick.com), September 29, 1999.


I kinda hate to get involved in this discussion but I seem to remember stories of people who, once beheaded, where immediately shown their decapitated body. Supposedly they lived long enough to realize what had happened.

-- NokternL (nokternl@anywhereusa.com), September 29, 1999.

I will get off Al's case when he quits preaching, telling people they are going to hell, and calling folks "woosy pussy". So go stick your head up his ass a little higher and find out what the hypocrite is really like.

-- (tomwaits@zensearch.net), September 29, 1999.

I will get off Al's case when he quits preaching, telling people they are going to hell, and calling folks "woosy pussy". So go stick your head up his ass a little higher and find out what the hypocrite is really like. At least I am not hiding under a false email.

-- (tomwaits@zensearch.net), September 29, 1999.

People on this forum are displaying their lack of appreciation of other cultures! Head hunting was a way of life before the EVIL Europeans presumed to colonize Timor. The locals are just getting it out of their systems.



-- K. Stevens (kstevens@ It's ALL going away in January.com), September 29, 1999.


Yes, but you Stutter.

-- About to Puke (Sick@sick.com), September 29, 1999.

Your point is well taken, I guess my next Y2K purchase should be a machete, just in case my 12 guage somehow get's pass the intruder. But my mind reflects back the the infamous photo of the Vietnamese man on his hands and knees with his hands tied behind his back and the man standing over him delivers a bullet to his head. This was shown on national TV news over and over again. Perhaps this is why some of us are desensitized at this type of brutality.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), September 29, 1999.

...showing the head the body...

There is usually a period of time when the head is still conscious...like a half minute. Chroniclers recorded that Mary, Queen of Scots head lived about 15 minutes. Lends a whole new insight on "getting axed."



-- K. Stevens (kstevens@ It's ALL going away in January.com), September 29, 1999.


Consciousness leaves the body at different moments for different people, depending on the will, state of consciousness, manner of death, etc. A person normally rises out of their body at death, and witnesses the whole thing. Depends on how emotionally attached they are = how much they suffer with body-identification. Also, people who have been loving and helpful are met before death by past friends, relatives, guides and angels. They do not suffer but feel indescribable joy at the release from the body. We have seen souls leave the body before death, and also those who stay in the body up to 2 hours after the body has ceased breathing. And yes, a person could be conscious through and after decapitation, for a little while, but would quickly lose sensation of pain. They probably would not be inclined to hang around the scene for long afterwards. But they might vow revenge upon leaving ... and those types of vows have a way of being followed through. The wheels of karma grind exceedingly fine ...

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), September 29, 1999.

K. Stevens,

Are you serious? It does look like they are enjoying themselves, as though it is sort of an inbred instinct.

Bill,

Maybe this would be a good argument against gun control. The NRA could put this in an ad that says: "See, gun control doesn't stop violence".

But it seems like Americans have become so accustomed to using guns that it makes killing seem artificial and clean. This beheading makes the reality of it a lot more shocking.

-- @ (@@@.@), September 29, 1999.


p.s. I Know Cory Hamasaki doesn't waste his time on this site, having to wade through all the vitriol against Al-D. But he's one of my all-time favorites.(I subscribe to the WRP's) And I spent some time in Hawaii about 18 years ago and the absolute sweetest people to Me, personally, were the Japanese.

As regarding World War II and things that were done, as General Patton said: "War is hell."

It sure is. And I feel like I've been Banished to hell. cause all governments know how to do anymore is Kill.

-- About to Puke (Sick@sick.com), September 29, 1999.


Yes, Earth is Hell, much of the time. Get out permanently!
We are not coming back!

God made the Earth beautiful, lush, with life abundant; humanimals have torched it, desecrated it, raped it, polluted it. And sucked and drilled its lubrication out of its joints. Planetary arthritis caused by out-of-control parasites. Earthquakes will become more numerous, stronger, much more devastating.

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), September 29, 1999.


About to Puke, Cory sticks around here more often than you think. And if you think he doesn't because of the whole Al-D thing, then you give Al-D a hell of a lot more credibility than you do Cory.

-- observer (observer@observerr.xcom), September 29, 1999.

Yes, I am serious. Headhunting is usually associated with the Island of Borneo and New Guinea, but if you notice Timor is situated between and had the same customs. Proof of manhood involved taking a head. Some tribes marked passage into manhood at 12 by requiring tha pubescent boy to slay a captive with a spear made from sectioned Bamboo in a public ritual, much like the public Confirmation in Christianity or the Bar/Bat Mitzvah public ceremony.

Islam in West Timor suppressed headhunting as a form of Idolatry, and the Portuguese did the same with the introduction of Christianity. But anyone with a modicum of knowledge of the area knew that heads would be taken once the Militia leaders proclaimed Jihad. The Beheadings are not now Idolatry, but permitted as a holy duty to convert the Infidels, through terror.



-- K. Stevens (kstevens@ It's ALL going away in January.com), September 29, 1999.


Where are you,tom? Ashton and Leska are spouting religious gobbledygook. Or is it just Al you love to Hate.

-- About to Puke (Sick@sick.com), September 29, 1999.

The current events in East Timor are typical of what happens when there is a complete break down of law and order in under developed parts of the world. Here in New Zealand we have been seeing pictures and news reports on these attrocities for over a month, and we are thrilled that the UN is stepping in to help sort things out.

East Timor is the Western Pacific's Kosovo, and this time it is the Australian military who are leading the efforts to restore peace. Even little old New Zealand has sent some combat troops and two thirds of our navy. (Its just a pity that our government are too close to an election to want to get really involved and send everything we've got).

One of the scariest aspects of this conflict is that the East Timorese militia are the scapegoats, when it is actually the Indonesian military that are the biggest culprits.

Any, many thanks once again to USA for the assistance that you are also providing.

Malcolm Taylor

-- Malcolm Taylor (taylorm@es.co.nz), September 29, 1999.


The current events in East Timor are typical of what happens when there is a complete break down of law and order in under developed parts of the world. Here in New Zealand we have been seeing pictures and news reports on these attrocities for over a month, and we are thrilled that the UN is stepping in to help sort things out.

East Timor is the Western Pacific's Kosovo, and this time it is the Australian military who are leading the efforts to restore peace. Even little old New Zealand has sent some combat troops and two thirds of our navy. (Its just a pity that our government are too close to an election to want to get really involved and send everything we've got).

One of the scariest aspects of this conflict is that the East Timorese militia are the scapegoats, when it is actually the Indonesian military that are the biggest culprits.

Anyway, many thanks once again to USA for the assistance that you are also providing.

Malcolm Taylor

-- Malcolm Taylor (taylorm@es.co.nz), September 29, 1999.


Sorry, I didn't mean to post that twice.

Malcolm

-- Malcolm Taylor (taylorm@es.co.nz), September 29, 1999.


A&L,

Beautiful perspective. I've never thought of the oil that way, but it's absolutely true. The surface is going to collapse into the voids we leave underground. Just another damn good reason to quit using fossil fuels.

-- @ (@@@.@), September 29, 1999.


Dear tom, a friend of mine in school, because of who his parents were, had access to some of the top physicians in the world. He asked whether or not a person could be sufficiently sedated or hypnotized to be able to stick out his tongue at the executioner. the physicians actually went off and thought about it and the consensus was if you could mitigate the effects of conscious shock, the physiology would support the goal. Including the sensate ability.

chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), September 29, 1999.


We post what we've seen and felt first-hand. It's hospice, not religion. It's experience. Of course, after enough deaths, one recognizes spiritual truths. The body is powered by will. There is so much more than what we see!

And we have seen a dead person consciously change their face and expression up to two hours after death. Mind you, they hadn't been beheaded ...

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), September 29, 1999.


theres more to life-than[eat-drink-& be merry]is life a prep.school?

-- what is man? (dogs@zianet.com), September 29, 1999.

Humor is an effective way of dealing with something as shocking as seeing a human head on display. It places distance between our feelings of utter horror and the personalization of an act so savage it's nearly incomprehensible. To trivialize the barbaric death of a man, woman or child, is to loose a valuable portion of honor within ourselves. A phrase brought to the forefront in Holocaust Memorials comes from the Talmud: "To save one life is as if you saved the world." Conversely, to lose one life...

Have we become so disparate from the "interconnectedness" of our humanity, that photographs like this no longer touch us with sadness and disgust?

-- Casey DeFranco (caseyd@silcom.com), September 29, 1999.


Observer, you said that if I think Cory stays away from the site, then I give a lot more credibility to Al-D than to Cory. But I said that it was Al-D's DeTRACTORS that would keep people away, not Al-D's sentence or two.

And yeah, I love Cory, But he would be the first to tell you that He's no better than Al-D; I even believe that he would be the first to tell you that he's no better than tom. And I'm no better than tom and I'm no better than Al-D. (there, does that sound gushy enough)(does That make ya wanna Puke)(I'm no hard-a$#, I just don't like unfairness.)

And Ashton and Leska, I Definitely believe you. I have read several books by Danion Brinkley, who had a couple of at(near)death experiences, and he says hospice work is the most rewarding work there is. And he Also is not distracted - or I should say 'convinced' - by people who *claim* that "Heaven doesn't exist." Cause He's Been there.

I am actually one of these people who like things like the smarmy(Chuckle) 'religious' song by Dan Fogelberg, that has these words:

"Let every creature I see, Be a Brother and a Friend to me; Let every step that I Take Leave the Footprints of a warrior....who's on the Spirit Trail."

-- About to Puke (Sick@sick.com), September 29, 1999.


Have you ever been on the spirit trail, About to Puke.(I'm losing it now. you're right, tom - I'm changing my name and e-mail tomorrow. g'night people)

-- About To Puke (Sick@sick.com), September 29, 1999.

Casey, if so, which is more horrifying...the picture or our reactions to it? All of my senses were shocked by seeing such an unexpected picture as it downloaded. I know that I will not be able to return to this thread because having seen the picture once, I want never to see it again.

-- RUOK (RUOK@yesiam.com), September 29, 1999.

Casey,

I agree, but I think it is sometimes necessary to be shocked by reality before we are moved to change it. Killing in our movies and American society today has become so glamorized and glorified that it isn't real to us anymore, it's just artificial. That's why the high school kids today can just walk into their schools and blow away a dozen of their classmates, because they think they are just acting out some kind of game and they don't even grasp the reality of their own actions.

Yes, many of us upon first seeing this were so shocked that our protective mechanism of humor kicked in because the reality was too difficult to accept. But I think most of us are sincerely saddened to see that this kind of insanity can be instigated by people with smiles on their faces, and if nothing else most of us should consider ourselves very fortunate.

I also think, as we are approaching a time when people are talking about possible loss of governmental control, and possible beginnings of martial law, that this will serve as a vivid reminder of what can happen if we do not keep cool heads going into this thing. And although it is easy for us to dismiss this because we feel relatively safe in our country, we should hope that this type of insanity does not continue ANYWHERE in the world.

-- @ (@@@.@), September 29, 1999.


Let's just bomb the shit out of them. Clinton loves to use the armed forces to deflect attention from his own problems, but I guess no one is putting any pressure on him right now. Can't you just see Dan Rather standing next to these guys, demanding something must be done.

Drop the big one on them now, get it over quickly. The violence must be stopped. No fighting in the war room!.......

-- Bill (y2khippo@yahoo.com), September 29, 1999.


Casey,

I could not agree more - I was as horrified by what I saw as I hope most of the posters were too. Humor is a way to change the subject quickly; some of the humorous replies would have been pretty funny, I think, if I wasn't still reeling.

As a vegan (one using no animal products whatsoever), long despairing at the cruelty in this world, I can understand why many have been so desensitized as to be able to make light of this. If it had been a pig instead of a human being, I'm sure the replies would have been nothing but jokes.

I have a pet theory about human nature. My theory states that a majority of people will do pretty mind-numbing things if they believe they can get away with it. Look at nazi Germany. Look at Yugoslavia. Both countries were deemed "civilized" before, and after, the atrocities. Who would have guessed that 90% of Germany's population would go along with it? Why couldn't it happen again?

How many of us would kill another person if it would give ourselves the opportunity to live? How many of us would commit rape if we knew no one would ever do anything about it? How many of us would join a crowd in killing someone "suspected" of a crime?

I know my answers to those and other questions, but hate to guess what the real figures are. And I certainly don't want to be there in person when people are put to the test.

Let's face it: deep down, most humans are barbarians - usually wearing the clothes of civility when controlled by TPTB. But when uncontrolled...

-- Y2KGardener (gardens@bigisland.net), September 29, 1999.

Depite the horror of it, a dose of reality is a good thing --- so thanks @ .

It CAN happen here. Be prepared just in case.

-- Jon Johnson (narnia4@usa.net), September 29, 1999.


After working at a large hospital, and witnessing mind-numbing atrocities every night, with intensely suffering patients and harried don't-care employees who thought NOTHING of slicing, dicing, tubing, twisting, drugging, and dragging live sensitive horrified patients, this thread was not at all shocking. The cavalier poses of the head-wavers is Y2K fear-provoking, though. Smiling clean happy humanimals in 1999. For the Christ-like striving, yes, it's a very smart long-term investment to act in such a way, while on this short unpredictable test-journey on earth, as to ensure only a ONE way ticket outta here.

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), September 29, 1999.

@ -

Thank you for thoroughly destroying my lunch hour.

R.

-- Roland (nottelling@nowhere.com), September 29, 1999.


I've just opened the photo posted above in a graphics program. Definately not a real, undoctored photo. The pixelation and gamma difference between the "head" subject" and the "background" subject is totally wrong. Plus, there is edging only evident with close examination that is proof the head was inset as a layer and merged with the picture of kids.

The person responsible for this kind of photo crap is an ass. Probably works for the Globe.

-- karen (karen@karen.karen), September 29, 1999.


karen

You put the image into Photoshop and looked at the pixxelation ?? Well how SCIENTIFIC !! You think this kind of image has to be faked ??? You're new to the web arent you ? Get a clue.

Guess what . . Indonesia has been committing atrocious acts of this kind against East Timor for 15 years or more. And America (and most other western countries with economic interests in the area) have either turned a blind eye, or HELPED the Indonesian Govt with arms sales, loans, development projects.

It's only recently, since it's been deemed "newsworthy" for the great American public, that you've heard of it, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been happening.

But if it makes you feel better to believe that this kind of thing just DOESN'T happen, and that images of this kind must be fakes . . well . . then go back to your sleeping. OR, educate yourself . . start here . .

http://www.easttimor.com/index.htm

As for those of you who seem to delight in making jokes about the murder and suffering of fellow human beings, you ought to be deeply ashamed of yourselves. But I doubt you will be . . you dont seem the types.

-- disgusted (at@you.all), September 29, 1999.


These photos may be in Indonesia but they aren't recent. I saw several of these same shots on one of the 'gore' sites on the Internet, Murman something. That's why I recognised it, when I looked at the rest I remembered.

Also the photos are taken from some kind of Asian tabloid newspaper, they could very well have been faked for propaganda purposes.

-- Forrest Covington (theforrest@mindspring.com), September 29, 1999.


Karen,

To give you the benefit of the doubt, I also took a VERY close look at these images in an image editor program. I see absolutely no evidence of any altered pixels or any other factors you speak of. At the risk of sounding blunt, I have concluded that your scientific analysis is a load of crap. The images present the very bizarre reality of a head detached from the body which is not something that Americans are accustomed to seeing. The instinctive reaction by many is to deny the fact that it can be real, as witnessed by others who tried to say that the head was way too big to be real (because it is being held forward nearer to the camera lens). It is certainly understandable that you may not want to accept this reality, but you won't be able to make it go away it by hiding in your little computer laboratory.

Forrest,

The last image at the bottom of the page indeed looks like it was clipped from a newspaper of some sort, but on close inspection the others appear to have been scanned direct from original prints. Although I have no reason to spread propaganda on this issue it is certainly possible that someone else is using them for that purpose, but make no mistake, the images are not faked. If anyone can read the text on the bottom of page (Indonesian?) perhaps this would enlighten us as to the propaganda motive.

Roland,

Sorry about that lunch, but a good dose of reality is good for the system once in a while ya'know? Cleans out the stomach, wakes the mind up, sharpens the senses! Makes all these posts about stocks and gold seem kinda trivial eh? Treat yourself to a nice cold glass of beer with a big foamy "head" on it, that'll calm your nerves!

-- @ (@@@.@), September 29, 1999.


From Britannica:

Headhunting arises in some cultures from a belief in the existence of a more or less material soul matter on which all life depends. In the case of human beings, this soul matter is believed to be particularly located in the head, and removal of the head is believed to capture the soul matter within and add it to the general stock of soul matter belonging to the community, wherein it contributes to the fertility of the human population, livestock, and crops. Headhunting has thus been associated with ideas regarding the head as the seat of the soul, with some forms of cannibalism in which the body or part of the body is consumed in order to transfer to the eater the soul matter of the victim, and with phallic cults and fertility rites intended to imbue the soil with productivity. It may thus develop into human sacrifice, a practice that has been generally associated with agricultural societies.

Headhunting has been practiced worldwide and may go back to Paleolithic times. In deposits of the Late Paleolithic Azilian culture found at Ofnet in Bavaria, carefully decapitated heads were buried separately from the bodies, indicating beliefs in the special sanctity or importance of the head.

In Europe the practice survived until the early 20th century in the Balkan Peninsula, where the taking of the head implied the transfer of the soul matter of the decapitated to the decapitator. The complete head was taken by Montenegrins as late as 1912, being carried by a lock of hair worn allegedly for that purpose. In the British Isles the practice continued approximately to the end of the Middle Ages in Ireland and the Scottish marches.

In Africa headhunting was known in Nigeria, where, as in Indonesia, it was associated with the fertility of the crops, with marriage, and with the victim's obligation as a servant in the next world.

In Kfiristn (now Nurestan) in eastern Afghanistan, headhunting was practiced until about the end of the 19th century. In the northeast of India, Assam was famous for headhunting, and indeed all the peoples living south of the Brahmaputra River--Garos, Khasis, Nagas, and Kukis--formerly were headhunters. Headhunting in Assam was normally carried on by parties of raiders who depended on surprise tactics to achieve their ends.

In Myanmar (Burma) several groups followed customs similar to those of the headhunting tribes of India. The Wa people observed a definite headhunting season, when the fertilizing soul matter was required for the growing crop, and wayfarers moved about at their peril. In Borneo, most of Indonesia, the Philippines, and Taiwan, similar methods of headhunting were practiced. The practice was reported in the Philippines by Martn de Rada in 1577 and was abandoned formally by the Igorot and Kalinga peoples of Luzon only at the beginning of the 20th century. In Indonesia it extended through Ceram, where the Alfurs were headhunters, and to New Guinea, where headhunting was practiced by the Motu. In several areas of Indonesia, as in the Batak country and in the Tanimbar Islands, it seems to have been replaced by cannibalism.

Throughout Oceania headhunting tended to be obscured by cannibalism, but in many islands the importance attached to the head was unmistakable. In parts of Micronesia the head of the slain enemy was paraded about with dancing, which served as an excuse for raising a fee for the chief to defray public expenditure; later the head would be lent to another chief for the same purpose. In Melanesia the head was often mummified and sometimes worn as a mask in order that the wearer might acquire the soul of the dead man. Similarly, it was reported that Aboriginal Australians believed that the spirit of a slain enemy entered the slayer. In New Zealand the heads of enemies were dried and preserved so that tattoo marks and the facial features were recognizable; this practice led to a development of headhunting when tattooed heads became desirable curios and the demand in Europe for Maori trophies caused "pickled heads" to become a regular article of ships' manifests.

In South America the heads were often preserved, as by the Jvaro, by removing the skull and packing the skin with hot sand, thus shrinking it to the size of the head of a small monkey but preserving the features intact. There, again, headhunting was probably associated with cannibalism in a ceremonial form.

Despite the prohibition of headhunting activities, scattered reports of such practices continued well into the mid-20th century.

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), September 29, 1999.


On this day of reeling news, a blast from the past and a foresight into the future:

[ Fair Use: For Educational/Research Purposes Only ]

9/30/99 -- 2:08 PM

Scientists uncover proof of Neanderthal cannibalism

WASHINGTON (AP) - In a firelit cave in southern France 100,000 years ago, a group of hunters bent over their meal, expertly slicing flesh from carcasses and sucking marrow from the bones.

But a closer examination uncovers a grisly scene: These were Neanderthals, and they butchered six fellow people just like they did deer - the first real proof, say scientists, that Neanderthals practiced cannibalism.

Whether some Neanderthals ate their own kind has been a controversy since the turn of the century, when Neanderthal bones bearing suspicious scars were discovered in Croatia. Critics argued that maybe those bones had been gnawed by animals, cut for some burial ritual or merely damaged by the primitive techniques of 1890s archaeology.

But the discovery by a team of French and American scientists, who preserved the Moula-Guercy cave on the Rhone River like a crime scene and used forensics techniques to examine the bones, should settle the issue, they say.

``This one site has all of the evidence right together. It's as if somebody put a yellow tape around the cave for 100,000 years and kept the scene intact,'' said co-investigator Tim White, a University of California, Berkeley, paleontologist.

``The hominid and deer carcasses were butchered in a similar way, with the objective being the removal of soft tissues and marrow,'' said lead investigator Alban Defleur of the Universite du Mediterrane at Marseilles. This ``is clear evidence,'' he wrote in Friday's edition of the journal Science.

Now the question is why these primitive people - an evolutionary cousin of modern humans, although most scientists think they are not direct ancestors - practiced cannibalism.

How to determine cannibalism from ancient bone is tricky. White published a book in 1992 about cannibalism among Anasazi Indians of the U.S. Southwest that concluded certain markings could definitively differentiate bones cut for consumption from those that were perhaps damaged by a rockslide or broken in a fight.

Defleur found 100,000-year-old bone fragments from six Neanderthal skeletons scattered among piles of animal bones in the Moula-Guercy cave, and sought White's help in investigating.

Two marks on a child's skull show how the chewing muscle in front of the ear was sliced off the bone by a rough stone tool found in the cave. All skulls were cracked open, and limbs defleshed and smashed for their marrow. It is very hard to crack a fresh femur - striations from a hammerstone and the stone anvil are visible on one.

The marks, White explains, can be identified just like detectives track the gun used in a crime by matching marks on the bullet.

But how does he know bones were not cut for some bizarre burial ritual? Identical marks were found on deer bones, and remains of the animals and primitive people were randomly discarded together about the cave.

As White put it: ``Humans are mammals. You eat the same parts and leave the same traces.''

``The results are unequivocal,'' Daniel Lieberman, a George Washington University anthropologist said after reviewing the study. ``I can't imagine any way you could get this kind of damage to skeletons through any process other than intentional defleshing of bones.''

While some Neanderthals carefully buried their dead, White said the French cave and scarred bones at other sites suggest cannibalism was more common among Neanderthals than later humans.

Why? It's unclear. Animal bones suggest game was not a problem. They may have eaten enemies. Some cultures practice cannibalism after a natural death.

University of Michigan anthropologist Milford Wolpoff has another theory: They needed fat to get through the cold European winter.

Neanderthals apparently did not store provisions. Meat cannot be digested without enough fat, either in the meat or stored in the eater's body, so Neanderthals and their game would be incredibly lean by late winter, Wolpoff said.

Brains are very high in fat, as is bone marrow. Previous research suggests that in late winter, Neanderthals broke open deers' skulls seeking brains - and the Neanderthal skulls and marrow-full limbs all were cracked, too, he said.

Neanderthals were the first humans in cold Europe, ``and you're looking at what it took to stick it out,'' Wolpoff contended.

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-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), September 30, 1999.


City dwellers will be hungry, cold, numbed, shell-shocked, and will quickly eat other people, probably the newly dead ones at first. After watching all the years of sensationally violent TV, it won't seem so bad or strange.

-- what I think (not@what.do), October 01, 1999.

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