In normal times,all responsible parents try to teach their children safe/appropriate behaviour ...according to the particular environment in which the family lives.

Many of us seem to think that our neighbourhood environment will become more dangerous next year.

1.Are you preparing your children for the possibility of change?

2.How are you doing so?

3.What are their ages & how have they been responding?

-- Mummy (griffen@globalnet.co.uk), September 25, 1999

Answers

We prepare are children the same way as we have tried to prepare our DGI neighbors, with directness and honesty. We've shown them the very grim realities that we will have to face next year and the very real possibility that we might not make it. Our kids are 6, 8, and 12. None of them are taking it too well, but the alternative is too difficult to imagine. Occasionally our 8 year old cries spontanously and the other two are certainly more depressed than in the past, but it's important for them to know what we face, rather than have them panic when the time comes.

-- (wanda@the.meadow), September 25, 1999.

We've been actively preparing for about three years now. I have two daughters, ages 5 and 10. My five year old helps with shopping lists and keeping our family prep notebook. My ten year old is in charge of inventory lists and packing up items when they come into the house. We have been honest with them, explaining that ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE, but assuring them that their father and I will do our best to care for them as we do now. We will also be joined for the rollover by 3 male single friends, who the girls trust completely.

We have also made plans for New Year's Eve to be as calming as possible. The lights will be off with candles burning well before rollover. I think the sudden darkness could contribute to the freaking out factor. They have learned basic first aid, know where everything they would need is and have assisted in packing bug out bags. Telling kids the truth and discussing their concerns is the only way to go!

-- Y2K Girl (ihop4food@aol.com), September 25, 1999.

Children and Y2K

-- (just@helping.out), September 25, 1999.

Maybe I am not being graphic enough but I have told my children (ages 8 & 12) that dad and I are worrying about this and they don't need to worry. None of their friends' parents are taking it at all seriously so they only hear about it from us. I have been trying to keep things as normal as possible and keep trying to make sure they are enjoying these days as much as possible. I have not really insisted that they "get it" They see all our preps and they contribute ideas and all but they are looking at it as an adventure which it will be. I don't really feel like making their lives miserable yet.

-- a mom (kids@peace.com), September 25, 1999.

a mom:

I have to admit your last line gave me quite a chuckle:

"I don't really feel like making their lives miserable yet."

-- Anita (spoonera@msn.com), September 25, 1999.

I introduced my children a year ago to the possibilities of Y2k (at the time they were 6 & 7) We even had a y2k weekend. We used no water,or power. We relied for 2 days on the woodstove for heat and cooking, a couple of candles and a flashlight for light and a radio for entertainment.We used water that we stored. They actually had fun doing this. (This was last year in Jan) I wanted to be as real as possible. In answering your questions I would have to say that because I am treating y2k seriously and sharing with them the possibilities, but not sharing fear just a change of life style. My children (I believe) are emotionally prepared and will be an asset IF y2k turns to be a bad thing. We do a lot of talking and a lot of "what if-ing". Giving them a mind on how to react seems to give them the power to overcome the fear. I treat this like any other drill- fire, evacuation, earthquake. The danger of not preparing your children is not only will you be dealing with a form of disaster you will have to deal with children who could cause more problems due to fear.

-- A Y2K Mom (I'mhere@y2k.net), September 25, 1999.

Very good topic. It's like teaching your children 'just enough' to be wary of strangers, and how to recognize the wiles and guises of child molesters, without making them paranoid and giving them nightmares. I don't want my child looking at every stranger as a potential predator, and yet again, I do. I agree with the "not making their lives miserable" just yet. We have made certain lifestyle changes that are sometimes explained by Y2K preps, but in other ways we just want them to be kids. Our 8 and 10 year old boys have 90% poultry responsibility and handle it like champs. Most of these changes are good things, like sharing gardening chores. Glad you started this thread Mummy!

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 25, 1999.

I wish my child was younger than 23. She hears the issue of Y2K ridiculed by her coworkers and peers who know absolutely nothing about it. I have prepared FOR her, but have failed to convince her that we may have a problem. I think she senses that precautions are in order. But the PR spin has worked on her and her peers to a large extent. Will she come with us to our out-of-urban retreat for rollover? Will she be able to join us later if Y2K rollover is severe? It is all yet to be told. But it worries me a lot.

Best to all of you with young'uns.

-- (parentalconcern@not.improving), September 25, 1999.

I have a 10 year old boy named Alex. When I discuss Y2K with friends he listens and remembers. We have talked about it directly and I told him that I doubt he'll be affected much which is in part why I've prepared so he won't have to do without. He's relaxed behind it because he sees the massive preparations and knows he'll be fed, clothed, warm and have power for light radios and to play on the computer, watch a video, etc. (make our own power here).

Alex and I have talked about y2K and why I'm stocking a large supply of food and other necessities. He has some input on the stuff I buy; he tells me what veggies and fruits he prefers, drinks such as spided cider and gatorade, he wanted Staggs Chicken chilli and Dinty Moore Beef stew so we stocked up a lot on those. I'm also putting away some food items specifically because he'll enjoy them, things like 50lb of popcorn, 10-#10 cans of dry pudding mixes, Balance nutrition bars (150) canned fruit fillings for turnovers, etc. I've bought a fair amount of clothes for both of us, vitamins, some board games, FRS radios (plus my long ranger ham gear).

I was concerned that he might worry about Y2K but it doesn't seem to hbe the case. When I bring food home he writes the purchase date on the package/can/jar and puts it away. A couple weeks ago I came in to his school and found him explaining Y2K to his new 5th grade teacher....she asked me if any of it were true, what he'd said, so I asked her what that was. After she told me I basically confirmed it and explained our approach to preps. Before I left she asked as to where she might buy supplies and what she needed. Out of the mouths of babes I guess.....DCK

-- Don Kulha (dkulha@vom.com), September 25, 1999.

I've explained y2k to my teenager- who is somewhat limited intelectually- but he gets it. And he explains it to EVERYONE. And he's always looking for stuff that would be good for y2k- at yardsales, in catalogs, etc- I've told him things could get interesting but we will be ready, and I know what to do.

I don't think it's a good idea to scare kids with this- if they are crying about it- they have been given info they cannot handle. Young ones don't need much info at all IMO. It would be sufficient to explain ideas such as power failures and practice for that- in our area these are common anyway-

It's a parents job to protect our children and not make them afraid that we will not be able to do so.For instance- I don't believe that it is appropriate to try to instill fear of strangers, etc in young children- it is a parental/adult responsibility to ensure they will be in safe hands at all times- not the child's job to ensure this. There is no need to instill fear in children. Let them be children as long as possible.

-- farmer (hillsidefarm@drbs.net), September 25, 1999.

Young ones don't need much info at all IMO. It would be sufficient to explain ideas such as power failures and practice for that- in our area these are common anyway-

I disagree. It is much better for them to experience the fear now, than when TSHTF and their lives are hanging in the balance. That's the whole idea of being prepared. Yes, it would be great to let kids be kids, but if they're not prepared, then they could be dead soon. No parent wants that. If kids don't understand what the possibilities are, then you're simply doing to them what the govt and the media are doing to everyone, double-talking and spinning polly BS. Your kids deserve better than that, don't they?

-- (Melanie@my.place), September 25, 1999.

My kids are teens - one in h.s. one in college. We've been prepping more than a year and at first they thought we were nuts because they hadn't heard about it from anyone else. Now they participate in our preparations. The biggest problem for them is their peers who live in DGI families. We live in a community that is undeniably "they won't prepare - they will remember." We keep our mouths shut. We are buying extra beans and rice to share judiciously with a few other families if they need it.

-- Fiver (fiver2000@yahoo.com), September 25, 1999.

*Boring answer ahead*

I vounteer as much as I can with our local *gasp* public school system. I'm the family weirdo who liked all the old junk. With this junk I've been able to tell the story of my simple american family for five generations back. Within the lifespan of my greatgrandma- if you could've divined the future, most would've thought you insane or possesssed.

I've hoped to prepare them by telling them the stories of the past, as I know them. And we've focused on public service - I know that seems an anachronism in today's world, sigh - I could go on for awhile here but I think I'll quit while I'm ahead...

-- flora (***@__._), September 25, 1999.

Melanie - I hope you are not a mommy. You think they should "experience the fear now" ??????? It is one thing to prepare them for POSSIBLE problems, but to SCARE them is downright cruel and inhumane. We parents are responsible for their wellbeing and we damned well should prepare to protect them from hardship. If you build strong, happy, team-spirited kids/families I believe it will be possible to weather all but the worst problems.

-- Kristi (securxsys@cs.com), September 25, 1999.

I've found its the practical aspects that worry the kids.If there is a long power cut when will the TV come back on ? One of mine is afraid of the dark & will need a light night.We have taught them about the safe use of matches,candles, oil lamps & hot stoves.In the kitchen all those dangerous chemicals such as bleach & caustic soda are stored on high shelves out of reach.Sharp knives & tools ditto.The home is going to be a more dangerous place generally.As for schooling....How many of us have the children bused to school or take part in a school run ? What do we do if gas is in short supply or rationed ????

-- Chris (griffen@globalnet.co.uk), September 26, 1999.

Melanie - I hope you are not a mommy. You think they should "experience the fear now" ??????? It is one thing to prepare them for POSSIBLE problems, but to SCARE them is downright cruel and inhumane.

Oh yes, much better to lie to them and tell them that everything's going to be okay, right? Then when TSHTF and they panic, they may end up doing something stupid and get themselves killed. Is that what you want? That's cruel and inhumane. I hope you're not a mommy. Your kids might not survive this.

-- (Melanie@my.place), September 26, 1999.

now kids...be nice. there is absolutely no reason to scare kids. you have to tell them that there is a posibility that things might get a little wacky next year because of y2k. but they don't have to worry about it because you have been working hard to prepare, just in case. you don't have to bring spock, jesus, or ayn rand into the discussion. all that is called for is a little common (or not so common) sense.

a kiss and make up smooch

-- corrine l (corrine@iwaynet.net), September 26, 1999.

As a mother of an adult and grandmother to 4 wonderful grandkids (only 1 of whom is 'mine'...yeah, right...they're ALL mine! ), I've given this considerable thought. All the preparations that their mother and I can make for them will be for naught if we fail to prepare for one specific thing: HOPE.

That's right, HOPE. Without it, people wither even when well- fed. "What's the good of it?" is all too easy to say when one can't begin to fathom the 'going on with life', even if that life is different than what one is accustomed to. Why make plans? Why bother to learn anything? Why try to understand your fellow man? Why give anything your 'all'? If you don't have hope, what does it matter?

Both my grandchildren's father and their grandfather work on and in the 'business' end of computers every day. The oldest is 10 and for his age, knows his way around a 'box'. He's got enough experience on his own to know that things 'go wrong' with computers all the time -- sometimes, they're explainable and easy to remedy, and other times, it's anyone's guess as to what's wrong/how to fix it. He's heard about the 'Y2k' problem from a purely technical POV, and seems to understand how 'frustrating' and 'discombooberated' it would make everyday life.

He also remembers when Daddy was downsized out of a job, and how worried his Dad was about things they had taken for granted. He remembers how they also survived a devastating flood when (in his words), he was a "little boy". He remembers how awful it was to have his routine disturbed, how worried he got because Daddy was worried, how it wasn't much fun to have to stay in the motel the Red Cross paid for without his 'stuff'.... He remembers WAY more than we would like for a wonderful 10 year old boy to remember.

So, for Charlie's sake, we are stockpiling HOPE, and we're teaching him to gather it as well. We've always been more 'self-sufficient' than most, and what he sees his family and ours doing is not that much 'off the norm' -- for us. We've given him responsibility for gardening, for helping us when canning, for thinking of new ways to recycle 'stuff'....all of which occupy his creative and fertile mind, but give rise to "What NEXT? -- What ELSE could we do if we didn't have "X"?"

-- Wilferd (WilferdW@aol.com), September 26, 1999.

now kids...be nice. there is absolutely no reason to scare kids.

In a few months, Y2K will scare them anyway. Would you rather have them scared now or then?

you have to tell them that there is a posibility that things might get a little wacky next year because of y2k. but they don't have to worry about it because you have been working hard to prepare, just in case.

This is the same kind of Polly drivel the government feeds us and we don't stand for it, so why should we do the same to our kids? They deserve honesty, not deception and lies.

-- (Melanie@my.place), September 26, 1999.

mel,

go find man. make babies. report back in a few years with thoughts. your "gotta tell kids every detail" is advice that you're a dgi when it comes to the young uns.

-- corrine l (corrine@iwaynet.net), September 26, 1999.

I believe there are probably as many ways to responsibly prepare our children as there are irresponsible ways, and age/level of comprehension and understanding certainly play the biggest part.

I look at it a little like sex education. Does one give the same explanation to a 4 year old as one does to a 9 year old? No, because they have different levels of understanding and maturity. When a child asks, "What's rape? What's sodomy?" (and believe me, they will have heard this on the TV news at a very young age!), do you give them the 'no-holds barred' version, or do you couch your response in a way that they can understand and is appropriate for their age group?

It *can* be a very ugly world out there, if that is what we choose to present as the first option. Children find this out, all by themselves, generally much too soon and all on their own. One of the worst things one can do to a child (IMO) is burden a child with a problem they have absolutely no control over. If a child is told, matter-of-factly, that things might be different (and give them a few 'for instances' they can understand and relate to), they can then begin to formulate a 'what if' plan in their own minds. If they see their family making preparations, they can see that action is being taken to avert a problem. But, if a child is given a "Mad Max" type of scenario, how in the world can they ever feel safe? How could any child feel they have anything to live for?

Teach your children well.

-- Wilferd (WilferdW@aol.com), September 26, 1999.

Oh wow! I never thought this thread would turn into an argument! corrine is right, smooch and make up here. Bottom line is that we all want to prepare so that children can still enjoy childhood.

melanie, I have been in a sitation where loss of innocence was not a choice. It was abruptly forced. Wilferd hit it on the bullseye button of balance. You and Kristi are not worlds apart here really. Kristi is a kick-butt kind of mama that you don't want to mess with, trust me. She is preparing as much as possible, but I don't think she can teach her sweet little toddler to kick the looter in the balls and then blast him with the shotgun. flora is teaching her kids about the past, so they can build their future wisely. Chris is reminding us to teach our kids to safely live with the hazards that our lifestyle change may bring to their home environment. Wilferd's post about stockpiling HOPE was great. I loved it. So yes, when age appropriate, teach them if A happens, then B. But do it in a calm drilling fashion. What if your child does not live that long? They could be struck by a drunk driver next week. Is that how you want them to spend their final days of childhood? Preparing to live is not worth much if you cannot actually LIVE. Remember we should be aiming to Thrive and not merely Survive. Don't extinguish the joy of rainbows, mud puddles, hot chocolate, and innocence because you are afraid. There are ways to prepare children for unpleasant scenarios without stealing their hope or innocence. How about some ideas and suggestions out there for this? What kind of games or creative ways of drilling have you all thought up? I could use some fresh input here myself.

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 26, 1999.

mel,

go find man. make babies. report back in a few years with thoughts. your "gotta tell kids every detail" is advice that you're a dgi when it comes to the young uns.

No thanks, hon, already have a man and two "young uns," but thanks for your advice.

-- (Melanie@my.place), September 26, 1999.

So yes, when age appropriate, teach them if A happens, then B. But do it in a calm drilling fashion.

Of course it should be done in calm drilling fashion, but that doesn't change the fact that some harsh realities need to be taught if you want your child to survive.

What if your child does not live that long? They could be struck by a drunk driver next week. Is that how you want them to spend their final days of childhood?

Again, this is the same argument the Pollys use to dissuade people from preparation. Hide the truth as long as you can so you can keep the sheeple sedate and happy. But what happens when TSHTF? Delaying the inevitable won't make the problem go away.

Preparing to live is not worth much if you cannot actually LIVE. Remember we should be aiming to Thrive and not merely Survive.

But you can't Thrive if you don't Survive.

Don't extinguish the joy of rainbows, mud puddles, hot chocolate, and innocence because you are afraid. We're all afraid, or at least we should be. However, the fear will sustain us and help us to survive when others perish in the coming crisis. It's interesting to see how many GI parents suddenly turn Polly when it comes to their children, doing and saying everything they supposedly despise when it comes from others and rationalizing it away as "good parenting."

Nobody ever said preparing for Y2K would be easy, or that it wouldn't require some sacrifice. You can take the easy way out and keep your kids in the dark, but, just like the lies the government is spinning, that's only going to make things much worse when they finally learn the truth on their own. It might even cost them their life, and that's very sad. They deserve a chance at life, they deserve to hear the truth.

-- (Melanie@my.place), September 26, 1999.

Melanie,

I'm just curious. Your ideas of "telling it like it is" and mine could be miles apart. How old are your children and what have you told them? Did your children happen to ask a question about something you were doing to prepare and that precipitated the conversation, or did you sit them down and have a talk? Did you tell the children the same, exact things, and what (if I may) did you say to them? What has their reaction been? Did you debate about whether to soften the message, and if so, what made you decide not to?

Again, I'm not criticizing, only wanting to better understand.

-- Wilferd (WilferdW@aol.com), September 26, 1999.

Yes, Wilferd, I am thinking perhaps Melaine's definition of tell it like it is may be a little different from ours, yet by degrees the same, I hope.

And the poster above, with the children bothered to the point of crying, please stay with us, or e-mail one of us. Please, if this is a problem, don't attempt to deal with it alone. It must certainly be bothering you too.

Certainly as adults, we fear the unknowns of Y2k, but as adults, hopefully, we can put our fears into perspective, or at least achieve some sort of balance to continue to enjoy daily living in real time.

Folks, if you have children experiencing daily anxiety from Y2K or anythings else, please understand, children can not deal with these issues on the same level as adults can. Not all children display anxiety in the same manner; some can even hide it fairly well.

I stand by Mumsie's definition of "good parenting", if that makes me a "pollie" or some such, so be it. The correlation between her words, and applying that same theory of thought to government and media withholding truth to the ADULT American public, well that just doesn't even come close to being the same with dealing with a five or ten year old. We never tell children about death, illness, unemployment or the other of lifes catastrophies in the same "manner" we relay the information to adults.

That said, understand, some of us have lived self relient lifestyle for some time. Of this group, homesteaders, survivalists and others less main stream, you must understand our children are not new to the concept/skills/ideas associated with living off the grid, bugging out, or other Y2k topics adults discuss here.

If you have been in a position to "lay all of this out" to your children in the past several months, as you have learned these skills and information also, perhaps you should make some plans to sit down and "listen" to your child's feelings, instead of telling them yours.

I point no finger's here, I find I must often do this myself. Every week husband and I have Y2k discussions. We have taken to discussing them in semi-privacy, even a 15 year old doesn't need to know the last detail of every news report or bit of information; and my son is very GI, very optimistic, and very much enjoying all the new camping gear and other "gadgets".

Let them guide you on how much information they want, need and can handle.

Best to all...

-- Lilly (homesteader145@yahoo.com), September 26, 1999.

Lilly, what a wonderful point you made!

How about asking our children what they are feeling, instead of telling them our feelings?

And maybe we should ask our children/grandchildren to explain what their concept of what might happen *is*, to better understand the child.

As a parent, I learned that sometimes what you *think* they're thinking, and what they're *actually* thinking are completely different.

-- Wilferd (WilferdW@aol.com), September 26, 1999.

I second the need for hope.I guess it will be particularly important for teenagers who have the adult world opening up only to have it (maybe)snatched away.Justifying the continuance of academic education is going to be really tough...tougher still if you are the only parent there to survive the arrows.

-- Chris (griffen@globalnet.co.uk), September 26, 1999.

Melanie, please don't be trite and purposely misunderstand.

What is your idea of teaching a harsh reality?

I have already faced my own personal darkness and hell in life, and only God knows what is yet to come. I have no intention of thrusting an imaginary one upon my children. The bad things in life happen to us all soon enough. It is enough for my kids to know that this is the way it is, and to give them the skills that will help them deal with it when they have to. This does not mean that we have never discussed what might or could happen, we just do not dwell on it. Now I'm going to tell you again, that surviving doesn't mean a hill of beans if you forget how to live and thrive. Even if the world goes to hell in a handbasket, you can still teach your kids to nourish themselves on a beautiful sunset. Beats going to bed hungry and DEPRESSED. Do you think you can help them deal with death and chaos and devastation by pumping them full of fear and trying to desensitize their minds and toughen their little hearts? You will just end up with kids who will NOT function well under stress. Scaring the wazoo out of your kids will not prepare them. Be careful not to unload fear on to your kids, making them share your grown up portion of responsibility. Fear burns you up from the inside out. You think your kids will be stronger and more prepared? Think again. Better yet, reread Wilferd's post on stockpiling hope. And think long and hard about what Chris pointed out, that teenagers particularly do not cope well with the concept that their future may be futile and non-existent.

You completely and illogically missed my point about the unknown transitory facet of life. You may drop dead of a brain aneurism tomorrow. I know two people who did just that in their thirties. If you knew you only had 24 hours to live, you might spend part of it finishing preps for your kids. And you might spend part of it reading "A Wrinkle in Time" or making their favorite cookies or talking about God or just listening to them talk and laugh. This has nothing to do with denial or spin or delaying the inevitable. We are complex creatures who do not live on bread alone, or beans or rice for that matter!

Hide the truth? After fourteen years of building relationships and putting down roots, we moved hundreds of miles away. My husband commutes to southern CA now. My daughter left the young man she loves (of course hoping he will join us soon), our son left behind a beloved sax teacher and his best buddies since childhood, our other kids all left behind friends, we resigned from the board of a private school we helped to found, and I left the opportunity for affordable further education and my contacts for photography. You think they weren't aware of WHY?

Almost every GI on this forum has sacrificed for prepping. I moved to a rural home, my youngest a new infant, and experienced being a single parent for four to five weeks at a shot, for months on end. That's really fun when the pipes freeze and sewage backs up in your bathtub and overflows down the hall, the car stalls out right after you pick it up from the mechanic and your nursing baby is waiting at home, the power goes out and your electric pellet stove won't run, and the roof leaks through the ceiling during a heavy rain, your toddler loses hair from the stress of Daddy being gone so much...and meanwhile Hubby is about 1300 miles away. I won't even go into the unfun life he led. Try driving the Green Hornet for a year. Now that's a sacrifice! Our kids (who were used to much more) have had either birthday and Christmas gifts from the thrift stores, or received something very practical like camping equipment, and been great sports about it. Our daughter quit college to save money that would be available to help IF we need it, if not she will have a nice nest egg to finish school with. Others have probably gone through much more than we have. Do you think we would go through all this, hand our kids a Tootsie pop, and say, 'Don't worry your little head Honey, I'm sure everything will be peachy keen'? No, but we also don't say, 'Okay, tonight when you hear me shake your bed, it's a TEOTWAWKI drill, pretend it's a looter downstairs, grab the baseball bat and hide behind your door and get ready to club him! Never mind if it's old Mrs. Smith next door, you know I told you things will get bad! And don't forget to change your own diaper before you go back to sleep!'

We have explained in non-threatening ways that things may deteriorate. They understand why we have left an urban area for a rural one. But I want them to be able to laugh and hope and play and sleep at night without a sick feeling in their stomach!

Lilly was right, even teenagers don't need to know every single detail and concern. Our teenage son has let us know when he doesn't want to talk about Y2K and related topics. We let him direct when and how much. In his own time, he IS getting ready. I have every confidence that he will meet whatever the future brings with courage and integrity.

The truth is, you have no idea what I or any of the other posters on this thread have sacrificed. What makes you think that our kids are in the dark?

You better re-think your fear as sustenance idea. Fear breeds fear Melanie. Hope breeds courage. If you want some calm and levelheaded kids who can respond to adversity and danger, then feed your kids hope and love. Courageous people feel fear, but choose to do the right thing anyway. Where do you think that kind of strength comes from? Not from fear!

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 27, 1999.

The LAST thing on earth we want for our kids, is for them to be afraid. We've busted our humps for over a year now, in order to avoid that experience for our children. We have discussed *some* of the potential for problems that Y2K *might* bring about. When they share a concern, we acknowledge it and offer our solution. They offer their suggestions. We cover the bases that they are worried about. We offer alternatives and provide examples of new adventures and skills we may all develop. It becomes a learning experience and group effort. Heck, my 9 year old son is hoping for a horse and buggy. My 18 year old daughter thinks barn dances sound like fun, she plays the fiddle, hmmm. We present the possibility for a wonderful, new lifestyle full of different, new and unknown activities.

Perhaps frightened adults should come to terms with *their* fears before inflicting them upon innocent children......please. Don't make me have to slap anyone like some hysterical cheerleader in a grade B High School flick. Grow up. It's your responsibility to avoid terrifying your children. Do your job please, show them they can depend on you. It's YOUR job to be frightened, not theirs. Their emotions are YOUR responsibility. Now, go do the right thing.

(And a Mother's star-spangled high five to ya, corrine! I think I'll knit you some thong undies for those cold winter months. I'm sure the National Guard troops will appreciate it, you hunka woman you!)

:)

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), September 27, 1999.

I have 2 children and they are 7 years apart. When i first told them about Y2k i shared the exact same imformation with both of them. After giving them a short overall view of what i felt the problems to be, i gave them paper and told them to make there own list of things they thought they would need. My teen age daughter was not thrilled but decided this was a good time to get a new 10 speed and had to convince me why we would need it next year. My son, who is 9, decided that he would need to have lots of batteries to power his handheld video games. They both selected 'comfort' foods they wanted me to store. As i got more into my preps the little one has become my memory...reminding me that he likes pb&j, dont forget to buy hot sauce for papa, and helping me to keep track of what is here. They both know that things could get uncomfortable next year but they both see daily that i am doing my best to provide the best level of comfort that i can. The oldest has gotten into collecting interesting candles and we have bought craft sets to make soap, inside herb & sprout gardens, and non-electric toys. Y2K is part of their everyday lives and they accept it as such. We have gone without electric because of tornado's and blizzards so they know the drill. Both have selected and filled their own bob bags and had a good time shopping for the contents. They don't fear the unknown, for everyday we are blessed to continue is an unknown, and we as a family face this challenge the same way. To be as prepared as we are able to be and to turn the rest over to our God. They both sleep well at night knowing that truth.

-- kitten (kitten@vcn.net), September 27, 1999.

Mumsie, it sounds like you have some unresolved anger issues to deal with judging from the long diatribe you launched at me. I never made assumptions about how much hell you or anyone else have endured - my assumptions are based soley on what I'm reading from you and everyone else. And then there this completely ridiculous misrepresentation of my point:

'Okay, tonight when you hear me shake your bed, it's a TEOTWAWKI drill, pretend it's a looter downstairs, grab the baseball bat and hide behind your door and get ready to club him! Never mind if it's old Mrs. Smith next door, you know I told you things will get bad! And don't forget to change your own diaper before you go back to sleep!'

Normally, I would ask for an apology for such an insulting display, but I doubt one will be forthcoming from you.

In any event, your description of sacrifice actually serves to illustrate my point. You've left your home, your kids have left their friends, your daughter has left the one she loves, everyone is doing with much less, your husband works miles and miles away, and you moved to house with a leaky roof and where sewage backs up in your tub and down the hall. And you have the nerve to accuse ME of "thrusting an imaginary hell upon my children?" Of course your kids know WHY you moved, do YOU? Did you move because it would be FUN?? No, you moved because you were AFRAID. Don't you think your kids know that? Don't you think they realize it EVERY DAY when they wake up in the rural house with the leaky roof and the sewage running down the hall??

You can talk about sunsets and laughing all day long, but ACTIONS speak even louder than WORDS. Your kids know YOUR fear whether you want them to or not. My only point was that it's an issue that should be addressed head-on, rather than trying to spin happy stories that contradict the living situation you've put them in.

And as for Will "Don't make me have to slap anyone" Continue, if that's a threat, then you can go right ahead and try, hon, but don't be surprised if you lose a few teeth in your attempt. I don't look to violence to solve my problems, but if you're gonna start something, I have no problem defending myself. Sound like you're the one that needs to "grow up."

It's sort of a sad statement about society that the idea of being honest with your kids is met with such disdain and ridicule. Perhaps I shouldn't be so surprised, though, when I see all the parents who respond to their own kids moodiness by drugging them up with Ritalin. Kids can't be sad, of course, and if they are, why, what awful parents they must have!!

There seems to be a prevailing "soccer mom" type attitude in which people are more interested in bragging about their childrens accomplishments (and thus, their own obvious skill at parenting)than in actually being honest about what they're really going through. It would be a refreshing change to see some people admit that their kids are actually having some problems dealing with Y2K and everything that comes with it, and that it's not all fun and games. I think it would help to reassure those whose kids are not dealing so well that they're not alone in their struggle. However, that would require honesty and that seems to be in short supply here. After all, everybody's kids are doing great, and if yours aren't, then you're just a bad parent, right??

-- (Melanie@my.place), September 27, 1999.

Whatever, "hon", but I've never scared the crap outa my kids. My 9 year old isn't sobbing and terrified do to my irresponsible, irrational and unrealistic expectations of what his emotional capacity is.

Get a clue blondie.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), September 27, 1999.

Although the idea of Will and Melanie, rolling up sleeves and stepping in the ring has its certain appeal (well, at least I AM honest!), PERHAPS we should bring this back to a level of sharing of what we have experienced, will experience, and what we have learned.

We may just be drawing to many conclusions on what each of us means, what works in our individual families and our definition of "honest disclosure?" of the situation to our children.

In a nutshell, I think some of us are differing in our opinion of telling children, "This or that could happen", vs, "This or that might happen." And maybe the difference between telling our children this is "fact" or this is "my opinion" of the situation. Frankly, I have yet to meet the true authority that can tell ME 100% what to expect next year?

Maybe we can at least all agree that this topic is too important to not discuss, and that few if any of us could not learn something new from one another.

If we haven't had to cross this bridge yet, doesn't mean we won't have to tomarrow...children, teenagers and Y2K, all equally unpredictable.

-- Lilly...a Libra obviously :-) (homesteader145@yahoo.com), September 27, 1999.

Whatever, "hon", but I've never scared the crap outa my kids. My 9 year old isn't sobbing and terrified do to my irresponsible, irrational and unrealistic expectations of what his emotional capacity is.

Thanks for proving my point, Will Continue. I'm sure you feel much better being able to ridicule others parenting skills. Makes you fit in with all the "good" parents.

Get a clue blondie.

Oh how cute, you called me a name. Is this how you teach your kids to behave too? I wouldn't be surprised.

-- (Melanie@my.place), September 27, 1999.

Gosh, reading that over that I sound like Flint (gosh); I need some freash air...

-- Lilly (homesteader145@yahoo.com), September 27, 1999.

My children are now 16 and 20. In discussing the possibilities of what COULD happen next year, one of the main things I have tried to impress upon them: We have many wonderful things that we take for granted every day. We have been SO blessed, and haven't always been as thankful as we should have been. Even if Y2K is a minor "glitch," I won't look at my life the same way as before.

-- Gayla (privacy@please.com), September 27, 1999.

will,

thongs are for amatures. you do, however, have my permission to slap whomever you wish to slap.

.

-- corrine l (corrine@iwaynet.net), September 27, 1999.

Melanie,

I'd still like to know what your idea of being 'honest' with your children means to you.

Funny, you didn't respond even when I asked nicely. Why was that?

Personally, I believe you can do a child a lifelong world of harm by transferring your worst fears to a child who is incapable of doing anything about it. I can tell you this is so from my own experience. The worst thing one can do to another human being is to rob them of HOPE. If you think you are doing your children a favor by giving them the 'worst case scenario', think again. Even if this does not turn out the way lots of us think it could, the seeds of despair have already been sown, and it takes a good deal of 'weeding' out to get to a fertile, productive mind.

My money is on WC, BTW.

-- Wilferd (WilferdW@aol.com), September 27, 1999.

Time out,folks.

One of the reasons I posed the original question was that I'm a terrible mother.Babies,children & teenagers just stress me out.I'don't mind admitting that.I discovered my talents lie in a different direction.Bit late to discover that after the event so I've just done the best I could.

Bringing up kids can be a pretty stressful situation at the best of times .I was hoping that we could discover from each other the strategies we each have adopted to minimise that extra stress and what approaches may be successful in bringing everyone through as a healthy,close & sane family unit.

It's been obvious from many other posts that many of us are finding the uncertainties,fear & preping very stressful.

This forum is one of the very opportuntities we all have to share those fears with people who know what it is like.It is at times our "comfort blanket".Even I,as a terrible mum used to feel uncomfortable putting teddy through the wringer & hanging him out to dry by his ears.!

-- Chris (griffen@globalnet.co.uk), September 27, 1999.

I'd still like to know what your idea of being 'honest' with your children means to you.

Funny, you didn't respond even when I asked nicely. Why was that? Gee, Wilferd, I was so busy trying to douse the flames directed at me that I didn't get to yours yet. Funny, it seems that even though you "asked nicely," you've pretty much already made up your mind about me just like everyone else, haven't you?

"Honest," for those unfamiliar with the term, means being direct about the possibilities that will occur next year, no sugarcoating, no lies, no empty promises about how "everything will be okay." We don't know what will happen, it could be bleak, or perhaps not. However, if your kids are counting on you to take care of it all for them, then what happens if you don't make it? I know you don't want to think about that. Nobody does. I certainly don't. (Whoops, there I go with that honesty thing again). But if you don't make preparations for that possibility, then they will suffer.

My money is on WC, BTW.

Yes, no doubt. All you really wanted is to see a good fight, all the while crowing about your superior parenting skills. Remember when you wrote this:

Again, I'm not criticizing, only wanting to better understand.

Gee, Wilferd, guess you were just trying to bait me with that "wanting to better understand" stuff weren't you? You don't really want to better understand, you seem much more interested in criticizing. Hope it makes you feel like a better parent.

-- (melanie@my.place), September 27, 1999.

Our situation covers the gamut, with sons who are 22 and 19, a 15- year old daughter and 9 and 4-year old sons (one 26-year marriage with a wonderful woman).

The older ones are very GI but not proactive about preps. This isn't surprising, I wouldn't have been either at their age. However, they are quite prepared to be supportive of the family (and the extended family, 21 first-cousins of theirs) if TSHTF in every way possible and for as long as needed.

My daughter is GI and has a balanced, no-fear attitude. She has told us she is grateful we have taken it seriously.

My nine-year old has gotten a bit stressed over the past six months, since he has a hard time distinguishing between what might happen and what will happen. So, he is assuming it will be bad. It's all relative, though. He is a very happy home-schooling kid.

While we are viewed by many of our friends as TOO open with our kids in general, we don't treat them as "best friends" or any of that nonsense and we scale everything to their age (so, for instance, we don't talk about Y2K very often with our 9-year old except to be generally positive about our confidence in God and our thankfulness for the shared love between us all).

My four-year old is learning his alphabet.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), September 27, 1999.

Every child is different and has a different "threshold" of emotional stability.

As I struggle to write this, my teenage daughter lies in the hospital, in there because she attempted suicide... everything being so hopeless and nothing to live for.

I didn't see how depressed she had been, how (according to her diary) she would cry for hours to go to sleep, how she tried to mutilate herself, how she saw the future as being so gloomy and without hope...

I can't help but wonder how much of my dealing/prepping for y2k had affected her.

I am afraid that this will happen more and more frequently in the coming months to children, with all the stresses they go through plus what may happen come the end of the year...

-- No name today (xx@xx.xx), September 27, 1999.

Dear "No Name Today",

My Fiance committed suicide because he was really depressed & saw no future.I had no idea he felt so bad.If you want to natter to someone who has had to deal with similar feelings..rage,grief & guilt,please,please do not hesitate to E-mail me at the address below. I've no tips to pass on but just warm hugs of support & understanding.

-- Chris (griffen@globalnet.co.uk), September 27, 1999.

It appeared to me that Melanie made a statement. It displayed an obvious lack of appropriate honesty as well as a pretty bold assumption had been 'dumped' upon a delicate, fragile and psychologically under-developed emotional mind of an eight year old child. Many considerate individuals attempted to offer input, advice, concern and reasonable alternatives to her delema. This was met by a fixed position and unrealistic excuses for her decision to have subjected a child to a certain level of fear most of us would deem to be too profound for a child of this age and development.

In my opinion Melanie, you have made a mistake. It is more than obvious based upon the admitted reaction your child has displayed. If you are unable to recognize this as such, it simply supports my theory that you are 'confused' and need to clear this up. It is nearly *OCTOBER 1999*. You are running out of time, unless your intention is to next slap this child with an, "I told you so." I can't imagine a parent looking forward to doing that to a frightened eight year old, so I will assume that this was simply an error in judgment on your part Melanie. I suggest you remain 'honest' (something you spew about an awful lot, but totally reject when directed at you) but use some compassionate judgment and a little more common sense about the tiny sponge that is absorbing every word that falls from Mommie's lips. Honest should *not* mean blatant, cruel or graphically honest (when dealing with an eight year old). It is possible to prepare young children without destroying them. Go back and read this thread again, but read it with your heart and soul rather than with your AK 47 by your side.

The defensive attitude you are displaying indicates a rather strong level of pride and self importance. I'll be the first to admit (doomer that I am) that a high percentage of Y2K 'outcome' is based upon opinion and in *my* opinion, I'm not about to scar my youngest child until faced with some certainties. I prefer preparing him for possibilities in the interim. This is a free country and you are welcome to do as you please with your children. You may take the advice offered by Wilferd, Lilly, Mumsie, corrine, Kristi, Gayla, kitten, Big Dog and others.....or not. I personally feel you should reconsider your present stand in light of a softer and gentler tactic. There is far more to raising children than putting clothes on their backs, a roof over their heads and food on the table. Take responsibility for this child's mental and emotional health and calm the fear before it becomes terror in the form of a balled up child in a fetal position in some corner of a room.

Now, that WOULD get me swingin' sister.....nothing makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up more than a terrified child.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), September 27, 1999.

Melanie,

You seem always quite eager to assume the worst motivations of others and the best in yourself.

I've met WC and her child; she *is* a very good and loving parent who has a wonderfully adjusted kid. I'm placing my bet on her because she strives for balance and appropriateness. She's one of the more concerned people regarding the potential for *really* bad stuff coming at us down the pike, yet has been able to prepare for her family without robbing her children of their innocence and joys of childhood. That's a very admirable quality, and one we should all try to emulate.

It's very selfish of any parent to place fears -- whether they are warranted or not -- in the minds of a child when that child has little or no possibility of controlling the situation. Period.

What good do you presume is to come of a parent telling a child that there will possibly (?probably?) be armed gunmen trying to storm their home? How much hope can you give a child if you tell them that Mommy and Daddy might all die, and they might, too? How is it constructive to tell them that people might starve to death? It isn't.

I'm sorry your rope is so short, and that you reach the end of it so quickly.

-- Wilferd (WilferdW@aol.com), September 27, 1999.

No name...thoughts and prayers with you and your daughter, from many I am sure.

Please do not blame yourself. I am so thankful it was an attempt and not an accomplished deed. Life is hope. I have experienced both ends of the spectrum, I was a teen who lost hope and have had a child hurt and I was unaware. I don't know how my parents could have realized, but remembering, just be as calm and loving and accepting as you can. I pray that you have a good friend to cry and let it out with. My email is also real. May God tenderly comfort you and your daughter.

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 27, 1999.

Melanie, there is a common psychological dynamic wherein a person transfers and projects on to another person what is within them. This is what I think you are doing. No, my children are not living in fear. We moved because we like having water to drink. We lived in southern CA during the Northridge quake and lived without power several days. We moved because we do not want to deal with the big IF of Y2K in such a place as southern CA. I gave personal examples as an expression of confidence in your feminine and maternal humanity. It's called opening up, making yourself vulnerable. I'm not a perfect mother Melanie. I feel more like Chris, and wonder how such a naturally undomesticated person such as myself ended up blessed with several children. Homemaking is more my Achilles heel. My husband has an extra dose of patience, so we seem to work it all out. It makes life quite interesting. I have my own faults and weaknesses galore.

Yes, it was a completely and ridiculously extreme example that I gave. I apologize for the sarcasm. I'm sure that didn't help our communication. I thought I made it extreme and silly enough to demonstrate a point, not to be taken as suggesting you were doing literally that. The point is that you can equip and prepare kids without frightening them. I did not think that you were shaking your kids beds at night, I don't know what your version of teaching harsh realities is. You didn't answer my question, nor have you given specific examples.

By the way, my kids have not carried the load of the leaky roof etc., I have. I did not wake them up during the night and make them help clean up the sewage overflow. They did not sit up at night with me watching the generator to make sure the heat stayed on. My sixteen year old did help with moving and carrying buckets of water in the attic, but he was already awake from water dripping on his face. He is old enough to have volunteered a great deal of help, and has shown the makings of a fine man in the process. They have learned to love this old place, because we have made a home here. I could not do much to make up for the absence of Daddy, but he has been here for the last four months, and that has been extremely wonderful for all of us. The truth is that we have been reading books, making hot chocolate, playing board games and making a life. What actions are you referring to? If you project a lifestyle scenario based on a prudent decision to move initially, then it what I referred to at the beginning.

Melanie, you persist in (pridefully?) assuming that your way is the only realistic and safe way. I said it before and will say it again, pumping your kids full of fear will NOT help them survive. It will cripple them. You are ensuring their impairment and subsequently lowering their odds. You don't "get it".

No parent is perfect. Maybe you have been a 'bad' parent in this narrow aspect. Could you admit that if it is true? I think you are afraid, and suffering from guilt and denial.

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 27, 1999.

No name today :

My heart and very soul goes out to you. I have also experienced the very situation you have just shared with us. My daughter was born depressed. We worked together for several years and had an impressive level of success until she became the 'object' of a gruesome, hideous, execution-style murder of her first 'love'. It has taken her three years to come to terms with this, experiencing off and on triumph. There will be many tears and soul-searching, night-long conversations ahead for both of you. I wouldn't be surprised if you were to discover she felt troubled before your preparations began. Blame solves nothing. Love cures anything. Get a hold of Chris. The support of a fellow 'cracked' heart is invaluable when your's is broken.

Hugs to you, your daughter and Chris. (and another one for my daughter as well)

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), September 27, 1999.

Chris, Mumsie, Will...

Thanks for your kind words... These last few days have been the most difficult for my wife and I. I am lucky that I have friends that I am able to talk about this with, and their support has helped us deal with this tragedy...

This has made me realize that although I have already prepared for the physical aspects of the future, I need to also prepare for the emotional aspects of it as well...

Thanks to all...

-- No Name Today (xx@xxx.xxx), September 27, 1999.

Hey you gals,

Thanks for giving me hope. With the other brawling testosterone thread of this dysfunctional family growing today, I felt like sending all the big boys to clean their rooms. With us, a couple of bitch-slaps & we're together again. To be honest with you, it's not gone unnoticed in this house that mom - who couldn't give the computer a second look before- has been absorbed by the beast over the last couple of years.

I know some folks who I think will actually rally when there is a known challenge in front of them, now they're zoned out with the meds. Some others that I'm greatly concerned about need the chemical balance. My post above may seem simplistic, yet it has given me comfort to know that folks I've come from have faced odds before and prevailed.

Best wishes, all...

-- flora (***@__._), September 27, 1999.

Flora -- Hey, who are you calling a bitch???!!!!

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), September 27, 1999.

Let's face it, behind (literally) every great bitch is a champion sire, BAY-BEEEE.

wooofff......

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), September 27, 1999.

Will,

Many considerate individuals attempted to offer input, advice, concern and reasonable alternatives to her delema.

You're joking, right? Here's one of those attempts by a "considerate individual":

Whatever, "hon", but I've never scared the crap outa my kids. My 9 year old isn't sobbing and terrified do to my irresponsible, irrational and unrealistic expectations of what his emotional capacity is.

Get a clue blondie.

Yes, really considerate.

In my opinion Melanie, you have made a mistake. It is more than obvious based upon the admitted reaction your child has displayed.

Except that I never said how my children reacted. You're apparently confusing me with someone else.

If you are unable to recognize this as such, it simply supports my theory that you are 'confused' and need to clear this up.

You, apparently, cannot even recognize who you are talking to, so I think you might need to clear a few things up yourself.

It is possible to prepare young children without destroying them.

This must be more of your "considerate" advice. I'm destroying my children? Do you see what you're saying? Go back and read this thread again, but read it with your heart and soul rather than with your AK 47 by your side.

Perhaps you should do the same. Watch where I entered this conversation and who really started throwing the accusations about. Maybe you'll learn something.

The defensive attitude you are displaying indicates a rather strong level of pride and self importance.

And what does your defensive attitude indicate?

Wilferd,

You seem always quite eager to assume the worst motivations of others and the best in yourself.

And you base this on what? My assumptions based on what I read. When I am attacked, then I assume that the motivation of the attacker is to harm or hurt. I wasn't "eager" about it. That's simply the way it happened.

Mumsie,

Melanie, there is a common psychological dynamic wherein a person transfers and projects on to another person what is within them.

Yes, I noticed you were doing that. That may explain the violent reactions people had to my original non-violent postings.

I'm not a perfect mother Melanie. I feel more like Chris, and wonder how such a naturally undomesticated person such as myself ended up blessed with several children. Homemaking is more my Achilles heel. My husband has an extra dose of patience, so we seem to work it all out. It makes life quite interesting. I have my own faults and weaknesses galore.

And yet, this is the first time you mention this. Why do you think this is? It's easy to take the position of moral superiority and strike down all opposing views, denouncing them as "bad parenting," but really, none of us are perfect. I never said I was.

By the way, my kids have not carried the load of the leaky roof etc., I have.

On this, I must again disagree. They live with the leaky roof, whether they do anything about it or not. It's there and they know about it. Actually, it's probably kind of like Y2K in that respect. Something they must live with, but is out of their control.

I did not wake them up during the night and make them help clean up the sewage overflow.

But did they know it was there? Did they have to live with it?

They did not sit up at night with me watching the generator to make sure the heat stayed on.

But were they aware that you were sitting up at night watching it?

You see, Mumsie, kids don't necessarily have to be doing something in order to be worried about it. Just because they're not responsible for fixing whatever's broken doesn't mean that they don't worry about what happens if it does. Kids are pretty smart about that kind of stuff.

Melanie, you persist in (pridefully?) assuming that your way is the only realistic and safe way.

Ahhh, and this is the crux of the issue. I never assumed that my way is the only realistic and safe way. However, when I am attacked by those who think that their way is the only way and that my way is cruel and inhumane, then we tend to polarize the issue.

No parent is perfect. Maybe you have been a 'bad' parent in this narrow aspect.

I have been a 'bad' parent in many aspects, but not in this one. If I did think I was, I wouldn't do it.

Could you admit that if it is true?

Yes, could you?

I think you are afraid, and suffering from guilt and denial.

We're all afraid and we all feel guilt in some manner or another, Mumsie. And I'm seeing a great deal of denial right here on this thread, from people whose only reactions to my ideas have been insults and threats of violence. Based on that, I'd say that my denial is small potatoes compared with theirs.

-- (Melanie@my.place), September 27, 1999.

Oopsie!

-- flora (***@__._), September 27, 1999.

I feel sorry for you, Melanie.

-- Wilferd (WilferdW@aol.com), September 27, 1999.

I feel sorry for you, Melanie.

I really doubt that, Wilferd, but it is another nice platitude to make you feel superior, isn't it? Is it working?

And people think I'm in denial. LOL.

-- (Melanie@my.place), September 27, 1999.

No, really. I do.

Perhaps someday you'll realize that life is easier to live without an enormous chip on one's shoulder. That you're able to accomplish many more worthwhile things if you're not so intensely concerned with trying to prove to yourself (and others) that you're being unfairly criticized.

Life is short enough the way it *is*. Lighten your load, if only for your kid's sake.

-- Wilferd (WilferdW@aol.com), September 27, 1999.

I was raised on the East Cost-hurricane ally...as a child, all I remember of the storms ( and there were many), was the adventure of eating soup warmed by Sterno, eating by candlelight and how neat it was that Mom and Dad let the dog come in the house to lay down by the fireplace. I will be eternally grateful to them that they did NOT subject me to what , for them, was great stress and fear. Please do not put a burden of fear on your children. Prepare for the worse but if you truly Love the kids, protect them from the anxiety which they are too small to cope with. All that my kids know is that there have been some Great Sales at the market and Mom is saving a kick load of $ by stocking up. And this is the truth! If ( and I pray not) the worse happens, I will not be able to protect them from reality, however I WILL NOT frighten them with unknowns. My best wishes for all of you.

-- Crying for the Children (lurking@the.edge), September 27, 1999.

No, really. I do.

No, Wilferd, you don't. You're in denial. If you really "felt sorry" for me, you would expend at least a little more effort attempting to understand what I write rather than make snap judgements about it.

Perhaps someday you'll realize that life is easier to live without an enormous chip on one's shoulder. That you're able to accomplish many more worthwhile things if you're not so intensely concerned with trying to prove to yourself (and others) that you're being unfairly criticized.

This must be a joke. Have you even read what's been said in this thread? I mean, really read it? The entirety of my point has been to defend against criticisms that I'm selfish, cruel, and inhumane. Do a search for these terms with your web browser if you don't believe me and see where they come from. Apparently, you seem to think that defending myself means I have an enormous chip on my shoulder. Well, then I'm guilty as charged.

Perhaps someday, Wilferd, you will come to realize that not everything fits into the neat little boxes you seem so intent to keep them in. You can learn a lot if you would just widen your horizons just a little. The choice is up to you.

-- (Melanie@my.place), September 27, 1999.

Melanie, babe, you'll never make it, if it really gets tough.

You use up a lot of your energy in being a 'professional victim'.

You have a lot to learn. Hope you manage to do it someday.

*Really*

-- Wilferd (WilferdW@aol.com), September 27, 1999.

Sorry Melanie. You're correct. I confused your defense of wanda's post as being your own. Sorry about that.

Now let's return to your ridiculous assertion that 'children' require knowing the full monty about Y2K. Please see my previous posts for further clarification. Or don't. I don't care because I tucked *my* son into bed 2 hours ago without any tears or fears. We read a funny book and cracked up about the pictures and he's sleeping peacefully. I'm feeling good about his happiness and have managed to allow him one more day of fun. We made a Kansas City Chiefs football banner that he colored all afternoon for the next kick-ass game!

Only 94 days to go and praying hard. I think we'll go to the zoo this weekend, but Sunday's game will be pretty hard to top!

Hold TIGHT to your children! Protect them. Defend them.

Hold TIGHT to this country! Protect it. Defend it. Without it, our children will be lost.

My 9 year old doesn't have to see through the spin. That's just another one of MY jobs. He collects the eggs, feeds the ducks and geese, goes to school and makes me laugh every single day in one way or another. That's HIS responsibility, for now anyway. He is my blessing, my joy and I will not tarnish him or burden him with MY job or MY responsibility. He's what keeps me going and is the only pure, untouched joy I have at this stage.

I come HERE for all of my 'touched' and 'tarnished' joy! ROTFLOL

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), September 28, 1999.

Paul Milne,

Why are you using the name Melanie and pretending to be mother? I could tell after the first few posts that you could not possibly be a female parent, and after rereading some of your other posts, it was pretty clear that it was you. The same use of parenthases and capital words.

I can see from the posats of the other Mothers that they are uncomfortable with the answers coming from you to be coming from a motherm, there's just something missing that should be there.

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), September 28, 1999.

Excuse me? You are now blaming me for people 'misunderstanding' you?

Melanie, I tried to make it clear that it was your position on not shielding your children from every gritty potential aspect of Y2K was at issue. Your parenting as a whole is not the issue, your opinion regarding children and fear was. It's not the first time I've apologized or admitted to weaknesses on this forum. I don't feel I am a morally superior parent. I disagree with you on this issue Melanie. You are very antagonistic with most all the other mothers on this thread, ....have you wondered why? Do you seriously think that we are all Polly La la's? I don't think so. So, tell me, what mistakes and/or weaknesses of your own have you discussed? Or do you feel you are so much more 'right' than the rest of us?

Leaky roof... no, I told you, other than the sixteen year old who helped me, they were rather oblivious.

Sewage overflow.... you're joking. Are your kids aware of dirty underwear and socks once they change? No. Kids normally don't think about things like that. Now my husband heard all about it in the middle of the night, but since he was in CA all he could do was listen to me p*ss and moan. So no, they didn't 'live' with it. It was cleaned up before they ever woke up. Since I'm not known to be a bubbly morning person anyway, I doubt they noticed much difference in me either.

I also don't let them share the reality and worry of finances. We will, of course, calmly tell them when we cannot get something because we either don't have the money, or need to allocate the funds to something else. They don't worry about not having a roof over their heads or food to eat.

Yes, I can admit to being a rotten parent in certain ways and at certain times. So far, the kids all seem to be doing great, despite my shortcomings. Probably the credit should go to the truly wonderful Dad they have. He's a gem. I told you, I'm not domestic. I had to force myself to learn to cook. Some things I do well, but don't ask me to bake a pie. I was tempted to destroy my kitchen out of frustration when I attempted pie crust. Like flora, I went from not knowing how to turn on the computer to putting in too many hours. I'm hoping the whole family will forgive me one day when the prepping pays off. I am planning a self-imposed moratorium periodically from this forum soon. I'm also not as patient or as good-natured as my husband is. My mother has the sweetest nature and I wish every day that I was more like her. I don't 'play' as often as I should with the kids. When they are all playing a game, I tend to bury my nose in a book. I have made many mistakes as a parent, and sadly know I will probably make more. I'm trying hard not to though. Perhaps, just perhaps, you should consider that there may be wisdom in the counsel of many, and rethink some of the views shared with you on this thread.

No, they were definitely not aware I was sitting up watching the generator. They were sleeping soundly as children tend to do. At least mine do. Yes, the occasional dream, wanting a drink, needing to use the bathroom wakes them up, but other than that they sleep through storms and all manner of noise. We have nine people and a lot of pets here, you get used to the noise. They knew the power went out, but they had a lark with the candle light and hot chocolate at bedtime. We were somewhat prepared.

I am trying to talk with you, not at you. Will's latter post was definitely written with kid gloves and full of goodwill and intentions.

How about it?

Unless you really are Paul Milne like Cherri suggested....

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 28, 1999.

You are now blaming me for people 'misunderstanding' you?

No. You are putting words in my mouth.

You are very antagonistic with most all the other mothers on this thread, ....have you wondered why?

Gee, I don't know, maybe it's because they called me cruel, inhumane, and selfish for expressing my views.

I am trying to talk with you, not at you.

Well, then you should stop using statments like this:

Or do you feel you are so much more 'right' than the rest of us?

Do you think that the above is a good example of talking "with" someone, Mumsie?

Will's latter post was definitely written with kid gloves and full of goodwill and intentions.

Too little, too late. Maybe it's just bait like Wilferd's "I'm just interested, not criticizing" ploy. In any case, I really don't care anymore. I doubt anyone else does either.

Unless you really are Paul Milne like Cherri suggested....

Yes, when in doubt, just make a wild, ridiculous accusation. Actually, I take that as a compliment.

Anyway, think whatever you want, Mumsie. You win. You've beaten me into submission. Congratulations, what a great parent you will make.

-- (Melanie@my.place), September 28, 1999.

I'm gonna try to sidle along the shore here, and maybe slip a toe into the water, as it's pretty clear the shark warning flag should be flying......

Big Dog's then 13 (now 14?) year old shared something with my bride and I on a visit earlier in the summer. (I'll leave out the IC chat comment, BD ;-)) We asked her (shamelessly pumping her, I'll freely admit) about how she felt about her folks doing what they were doing. Seems she was pretty savvy about the Net and other stuff and when we asked what she thought of her crazy dad she said something that almost blew me out of the car (trust me I didn't even come close to the trees, no matter WHAT anyone says). She said (nearly a quote "I'd be pretty upset if he wasn't doing what he is. It's his job (or place or something that conveyed the position and responsibility of a "father")" from a 13 yr old to a stranger taking her to a drama event. I think he's doing a superb job on his kids. As the old saying goes :"the proof is in the pudding!"

Chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), September 28, 1999.

Here is my long post, because it is important to me:

I think as parents, we can find just about any little thing about our children to be proud of, no matter how their abilities stack up against the norm. This is something we do naturally.

Now to get our children to be proud of us takes alittle more effort, and I say this, as once again this morning, I threw breakfast together and ran him out the door, almost late for school, in "back up" wardrobe...yes I WILL get the laundry done today, and the mending, and...well, you know what I mean.

Because this is another fact, not to many of us would care to admit perhaps, but y2k is consuming alot of our time. Whether on this forum or surfing the net, in the garden, installing non-electric gadgets, planning and logging in canned goods, or caring for those new baby chicks and/or constructing housing, fencing, and the wide variety of other activities we are doing under the general heading of "preparations". Not to mention just the "mental energy" we exert in contemplation of it all.

So in reality, I doubt very few of our kids do not realize how very seriously we are taking this issue, no matter what "verbal" communications we have intentionally directed toward them.

Are they in agreement? Are they proud of us? Are they scared? Do they think mom (dad) has went off the deep end? Have we ASKED them? And are they telling us what we WANT to hear?

Example: My son is a very good person, and I won't go on (see paragraph one). When he was about 8 or 9, my only means of transportation at that time was a 79 Datsun PU. Excellant vechical for many years, but alas, it was on its serious last leg. Which would go first, the engine, the transmission, or would the rusted bed just fall off going down the road...it was a toss up?

Of course for me, I took it as I do things...joked about it, found it humorous when the tailgate did infact literally "fall off". Well, at this time, he was in little league. This required, as we all know, extra travel. Well that fellow came up with a very convincing arguement to drop out. I encouraged him to stay in, saying all the right things, timing the parenting "tricks of the trade" appropriately, etc., but in the end, I let him drop out.

Much later, long after we had an other vehical, and the issue was forgotten (by ME), he confessed it was because he didn't want to put extra wear and tear on the truck. Any parent here will realize how badly I feel about this to this day. It will never leave me.

If I had any point that I would want to reemphsize on this thread, it would be to stop right now thinking any of us, and myself included totally, actually know how our kids feel about all of this.

This crosses all boundries of adult interpretation of the Y2K situation. Optimists may find their children worried, pessimists may find their children equally as anxious.

Surely we can all agree on this aspect of Y2K, and put our differences to rest. Cherri, you know no more how Mr. Milne relates to his children, than I do about you and yours, if either of you have them. Heck, if you do, I can tell by your writing, you are much more orgainized than I ever will be.

And Melanie, I haven't seen you post here before, but don't judge anyone so quickly on this one, although most important, issue. And if I didn't think you had something of value to say that I might learn from, not just on this, but about anything else also, I say so.

Perhaps we need to start a NEW thread tomarrow..."What My Kids Said!"...after we have talked to our kids tonight...then we can better discuss how they feel.

-- Lilly (homesteader145@yahoo.com), September 28, 1999.

If I had any point that I would want to reemphsize on this thread, it would be to stop right now thinking any of us, and myself included totally, actually know how our kids feel about all of this.

Thanks, Lilly, this was exactly what I was trying to say.

-- (Melanie@my.place), September 28, 1999.

No question our family is VERY aware of the burden I am carrying this year as the "dad" about Y2K. Since every family is different, I don't think it is possible to generalize about what kids are ACTUALLY feeling. Also, it is highly age-dependent.

That kids, even as young as 2, have their own "private" world, is indubitable and often drastically underestimated by parents. Indeed, respecting their private world(s), which it too dynamically changes over time, is a critical aspect of good parenting. Teens, for instance, need to know that Mom and Dad DON'T know everything they are thinking.

That said, husbands and wives have private worlds too!

The challenge is to be sensitive enough to the signals that there is "enough" give-and-take to allay anxieties and to share realities. So much depends on a history of reliability in communication. Many parents do "lie" to their children without acknowledging to themselves that they do so (ie, they don't think of it as lying). In THAT sense, honesty is crucial, not an honesty that withholds nothing in the name of truth, but simply making sure that what you DO say is accurate to the best of your knowledge.

The situation nationally really isn't that different than the one in your home. If your children doubt your word broadly, they will doubt it about Y2K -- and, IMO, be more anxious than they would have been otherwise.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), September 28, 1999.

You are now blaming me for people 'misunderstanding' you? Melanie" "No. You are putting words in my mouth."

*****sorry, I misunderstood the following....

Melanie, there is a common psychological dynamic wherein a person transfers and projects on to another person what is within them.

Melanie: "Yes, I noticed you were doing that. That may explain the violent reactions people had to my original non-violent postings. "

****sorry Melanie, I misunderstood you then.

Melanie: "Normally, I would ask for an apology for such an insulting display, but I doubt one will be forthcoming from you."

(I had replied) I apologize for the sarcasm. I'm sure that didn't help our communication.

*******no response from you.....except.....

I am trying to talk with you, not at you.

"Well, then you should stop using statments like this: " Or do you feel you are so much more 'right' than the rest of us?

*******I am asking a question, albeit out of frustration. You said many provocative things yourself.....

Melanie: "My only point was that it's an issue that should be addressed head-on, rather than trying to spin happy stories that contradict the living situation you've put them in.....However, if your kids are counting on you to take care of it all for them, then what happens if you don't make it? "

*****What makes you assume that we are just spinning happy stories, or that their present situation is one of unhappiness? It's true that it has been rough on our older teenagers, but as long as Mom and Dad are here, the younger kids don't worry about food and shelter, and all is basically 'right' in their childhood world. I will fight to keep it that way for as long as possible. I don't think even a severe economic downturn will change that for them. If we are faced with worse, then I don't think that small children will do well cut loose to survive. Even if we teach them survival skills and survival attitudes, they will be better off with adults who will care for them and look out for them. A support network of families/adults is a better survival insurance policy.

(more provocative statements) Melanie: "then you're simply doing to them what the govt and the media are doing to everyone, double- talking and spinning polly BS. Your kids deserve better than that, don't they?...... That's cruel and inhumane. I hope you're not a mommy. Your kids might not survive this.....This is the same kind of Polly drivel the government feeds us and we don't stand for it, so why should we do the same to our kids?...... It's interesting to see how many GI parents suddenly turn Polly when it comes to their children, doing and saying everything they supposedly despise when it comes from others and rationalizing it away as "good parenting."...... Nobody ever said preparing for Y2K would be easy, or that it wouldn't require some sacrifice. You can take the easy way out and keep your kids in the dark, but, just like the lies the government is spinning, that's only going to make things much worse when they finally learn the truth on their own. It might even cost them their life, and that's very sad. They deserve a chance at life, they deserve to hear the truth...... It's easy to take the position of moral superiority and strike down all opposing views, denouncing them as "bad parenting," .......

Melanie: "The entirety of my point has been to defend against criticisms that I'm selfish, cruel, and inhumane. Do a search for these terms with your web browser if you don't believe me and see where they come from.

*******I did scan visually, and found you using those statements yourself.....

"Oh yes, much better to lie to them and tell them that everything's going to be okay, right? Then when TSHTF and they panic, they may end up doing something stupid and get themselves killed. Is that what you want? That's cruel and inhumane. I hope you're not a mommy. Your kids might not survive this.

-- (Melanie@my.place), September 26, 1999.

******Granted, you were replying to Kristi's post, but tell me, do two wrongs make a right? You take offense at the words being applied to you, but feel justified in making the accusation yourself?

Unless you really are Paul Milne like Cherri suggested...."

Melanie: "Yes, when in doubt, just make a wild, ridiculous accusation. Actually, I take that as a compliment."

*******it was a joke. I assumed Cherri meant it that way too.

Melanie, there is an old concept of meeting someone half way. Would you explain to me, based on your prior posts where you have reciprocated to me? Your closing statement seems very judgemental. You accused me of making a wild ridiculous accusation. What are you implying with your closing statement?

"You win. You've beaten me into submission. Congratulations, what a great parent you will make. "

Are you applying the same measure/standard you are using to judge me to yourself? Was it beating you into submission when I revealed that despite my best efforts, that my toddler missed his Daddy so much that he had temporary alopecia? I did not say my kids were not affected Melanie. I disagred with what I perceived as your assertion that giving them the nitty gritty details of what may (but may not) happen was the only loving and right way.

Lilly: "If I had any point that I would want to reemphsize on this thread, it would be to stop right now thinking any of us, and myself included totally, actually know how our kids feel about all of this. . Melanie: ..............Thanks, Lilly, this was exactly what I was trying to say".

Okay, I believe you. I didn't really get that from your prior posts, but I believe you. I think there is a lot that could yet be exchanged productively when it comes to Y2K and children. I also agree that kids are aware of some things, no matter how much we try to shoulder the load. We try to keep chatting with our kids about what is happening, but I'm taking Lilly's wise suggestion, and getting a fresh update as soon as possible on their present feelings and outlook. I hope you will meet me partway, and then maybe we can share 'honestly'. I'm not seeing you as a bad person or mother. I think we disagree on on a particular issue, or at least we disagree as to what we perceive the other's stand on it is.

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 28, 1999.

I have told my five ferrets (ages 3-22 months) and they seem very calm (a ferret-type calm, so sort of jittery excited as opposed to hissing frenetic)and accepting. I've explained that I will have four extra months worth of food for them and I also plan on buying 4 chinese dwarf hampsters. If the situation doesn't improve in four months I will breed the hampsters and feed the offspring to them. So they are secure in the knowledge that they won't starve. Other then that they are taking every day as it comes, enjoying themselves as much as possible despite the dark, looming spector of potential disaster.

My cat is oblivious as usual. However I calculate that he can live about five years off of his fat if nessisary as he is quite rotund.

The Freak

-- Typhonblue (typhonblue@hotmail.com), September 28, 1999.

Mumsie, I already said you win. I don't know why you want to keep beating me over the head with this when I already said you win. It doesn't matter, though, because I really don't care anymore.

I've begun to reconsider whether this whole doomer/preparation lifestyle is really all that healthy to begin with. Children taken from friends, families split apart, depression and suicide, all these terrible things, it makes no sense at all. Why are we doing this to ourselves? I remember being so angry at the Pollys when they didn't "GI", when they called us "tinfoils" who were causing such harm to our children, but now I wonder if maybe there's something to what they've been saying. "Bug out" bags, suvival gear, generators and wood stoves, guns and ammo, it all sounded so nuts, but I KNEW what I was doing was right. Or at least I thought I did. Now I don't know anymore. I think I've made a terrible terrible mistake. Hopefully there's still time to repair the damage.

-- (Melanie@my.place), September 28, 1999.

Typhoon Blue,

Are you back ???

Ps.My dog isn't too worried either !

-- Chris (griffen@globalnet.co.uk), September 28, 1999.

Melanie, in your last response you indicated that perhaps you feel you've made a mistake in taking the potential for disruptions as seriously as you have. You said you feared you've made a terrible mistake, gave the impression that you're now going to abandon your position that people should prepare.

When I read your words, two things came to my mind. The first was that you must be terribly, terribly frightened about the prospects for future chaos. I give this idea serious consideration because the of the way you've come across in quick anger, defensiveness, and with the attitude that you, alone, are the only parent doing the 'right' thing. I can understand some of that (if that's indeed what has motivated you),because it's a natural reaction to danger, especially if one hasn't had the 'luxury' of enough time to think things through in a 'rational' manner, ie., it appears that you might have "GI" later than you would have liked, and feel intensely pressured to do as much as you can before TSHTF. Rather like the old 'fight or flight' response we *all* have.

And yes, I *do* really understand those kinds of feelings. I've had them myself -- and still do, on the odd day. Days like that make me want to grab people, shake them to get their attention, and say, "It's almost too late!". Nasty feelings, they are, but I've found as I have been rationally preparing in a steady manner, they tend to be fewer and less intense.

So, I can relate to how one might think it's the *only* way to get those whom you love 'ready' for what might come. And I can certainly understand (although my personal experience took a very long time in coming) how a parent might think it in a child's best interest to scare the bejabbers out of them, in order to 'save' the child -- even if it meant that the child 'suffered' in other, less 'drastic' ways. I still hold fast to my belief that it does a child more harm than good if the 'warnings' cause the child to lose hope. Bad times of a determinate length can be coped with, and ongoing struggles can be dealt with. How does one give a child a 're-fill' of hope when the vessel has been damaged? Sometimes you can't. Sometimes it takes a VERY long time.

The preponderance of posters here had only the best itentions, for your children, and for you, Melanie. If you feel we reacted in a hurtful way, it is because you yourself first threw down the gauntlet with your original post. Perhaps you intentionally 'drew' this thread to your latest post, thinking you could expose a chink in the 'doomer' mantra? Show the world how being a GI is destructive, and look, here are all of these women who are ruining their kids?

I would like to think that you wouldn't do that. I'd like to think that you're either just scared silly (as all of us have been), or that you just have problems interacting with other people.

There is a healthy balance in all things. I strive everyday to find it.

I hope you will, too. Really.

-- Wilferd (WilferdW@aol.com), September 28, 1999.

Wilferd, please, like I've already told Mumsie, you win. If you want to assume something bad or good about me or judge my intentions, please feel free. It just doesn't matter anymore. You've ridiculed me, you've called me a "professional victim" and told me I'll never make it, fine. That's the way you feel, nothing I say or do will change that.

Like I said, I'm just rethinking this lifestyle I've chosen and I've begun to realize that it's not for me or my family. After reading this thread again, as well as other threads here, I'm becoming more sure of it. If you want to think I'm "exposing" something then fine, whatever. I just don't care. I'm not telling you what to do with your life. You can do whatever you like with it. I will do the same.

-- (Melanie@my.place), September 28, 1999.

Well. Obviously Cherri was way off base (again).

You don't need to rethink your position Melanie, just your attitude about it. Been there, done that. Several times. Take a break, go to the zoo. Spend 24 hours pretending you're a Polly, then slap yourself and come back fighting sister!

94 days and counting......:)

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), September 28, 1999.

gee, good attempt at a save eh?

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), September 28, 1999.

Whatever. Any "true" GI would never toss in the towel at this stage, no matter how much their feelings got hurt. Especially when they have children.

How about you, Cherri?

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), September 29, 1999.

Melanie, this is not about winning. Communicating is going over things, attempting to listen, attempting to understand. Words are what we are using, although I am trying to listen between the lines too. I'm not trying to beat you over the head, just keep you accountable for what you said yourself. It's part of communication. I'm sorry you are feeling the way you are. You asked why we are doing this to ourselves. Well, we aren't responsible for creating Y2K or embedded chips, or nasty biowarfare or nuclear weapons etc. We are just trying to live as normally as possible, yet at the same time, as mothers, we are fighting to preserve the health and happiness of our children. I want it all to go away most days, but then that doesn't really make any difference in the end. My email is real. Any normal woman must have some hellish struggles to absorb and respond to what this ugly old world can dish up. I certainly have. I asked you before to meet me part way. My apology was genuine. I don't know how to explain this, but I do care when I think that you are afraid, lonely, discouraged or hurting. I have had others on this forum reach out to me with kind words, and it has helped me tremendously. Even the cyber touch of compassionate humanity has comforted me.

I send you best wishes...

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 29, 1999.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr (pic), near Monterey, California

As is usual for me, I came across this thread just after all the fireworks were over, on September 29th. Throughout the reading of the entire thread I identified with Melanie, except for when she finally said that she was questioning preparing at all. I agree with everything she said, the tone in which she said it, and with the way she interpreted what others were saying. Contrary to the way she was portrayed, I was impressed by her extraordinary self-restraint in responding to her attackers, under the circumstances. I intended to write in support at that time, because I was concerned about her and the abominable treatment that she received, here, for merely expressing an opinion. One thing led to another and this little project ended up at the bottom of my "to do" pile. I'm writing now because I believe that there is a place on this thread for those who believe that we should be open and honest with our children.

There are those among us who advise that all Y2K preparation should remain hidden from pre-adolescent children because they are too likely to blab to outsiders about it. This, I think, is the single best reason for keeping this kind of information from most children. In my case, this approach was not really an option. I've been unschooling my eight year old since well before he was born. With the exception of a week when I was bedridden a couple years ago, I've been with him pretty much 24/7. Unless I were to enroll him in some school and cut my Y2K time in about half there's just no way he's not going to know about it.

Even then, I'd have to lie to him, which I'm not prepared to do. I've never lied to him about so much as the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, let alone about my assessment of the probability of a Bump in the Road, and I'm not about to begin now. If I get flamed for this post it will most likely be for admitting to not pushing the Santa Claus myth. We do play with it some, but it's in the context of "Let's pretend." But that will not be enough for some people. It is as if most people think we should all be free to teach our children whatever kooky religion we wish, including santeria for example, but don't even consider encouraging unbelief in Santa Claus! I'll grant right off the bat that I'm out of the mainstream on this one.

Y2K is exactly the kind of occasion for which I've been preparing with all these years of being extra careful to not lie to my son. Someday every talking head on TV, and all the teachers in schools may be saying to get on that nice white bus (or whatever else we may prefer to not do). I want my son to look to me for advice and to trust that I will give him the straight scoop, to the best of my understanding. That's not to say I will automatically advise doing the opposite of what is expected. I will weigh the available options with a healthy skepticism regarding official pronouncements.

Meanwhile, I need his help. There are occasionally preparation tasks that I am physically incapable of doing. Other than that, I wouldn't really pretend that he speeds things along for me, but he certainly does provide much appreciated company. In the process, I hope I'm providing him an edge in how to get along in the world of the unknown future. By bumbling through together, we're learning how to survive. He helps equip his bugout bag, puts dates on cans, and helped me pick out some clothes for him for a couple years from now. We don't need new ways to entertain ourselves, since we were already not using much electricity for that. He doesn't watch much TV and his musical instruments are mostly acoustic.

I agree that some of those like me who were children in school in the early 1960's, may have been psychologically traumatized by the periodic air raid drills. We were instructed to sit on the floor, and put our heads between our legs. Invariably, some kid nearby would add in a whisper, "and kiss your ass goodbye." So why would I inflict this kind of mental anguish on my own son? Because, his life may depend upon it! Thus, I not only teach the standard "Stop, Drop, and Roll," about being on fire, but also one we made up together: "If you see a big flash, get down real fast! There'll be a big wind, 'n' it will come back ag'in. (so, STAY down!)" We also studied many ideas of ways to make expedient fallout shelters.

I'm acutely aware that there is another way to parent; one that is iconified in the famous Norman Rockwell painting showing parents tucking their children safely into bed, while headlines in a newspaper scream WAR! That method is for parents who believe that there is nothing that can be done to improve a child's ability to handle potential problems. The thing is, though, that I do think there are some prudent things to be done so that they will be prepared. That's why I bought my son a junior sized gas mask. We're still trying to figure out how it works. We will keep it under the front passenger seat, and drill in putting it on efficiently.

I realize I'm probably causing my son some stress. I'm very careful to tune in to him for feedback as we explore these issues, imagine various situations, and rehearse what we might do. If he doesn't seem ready to hear something, I wait for a better time. I think I'm much more able to sense individualized appropriate timing than would be a government employee (teacher) who may be guiding 30-40 students through the exercise in unison. (In the case of the Civil Defense Drill mentioned earlier, all 800 kids in the school were involved.)

I teach my son lots of stuff that's not covered in schools. For example he knows quite a bit about what to do (and not to do) if he should ever be arrested. Next year he will carry a "School ID Card" and we will practice how to safely offer to show it, so that he won't be mistaken for someone pulling a gun.

I discuss with my son what he might do if my husband and I would die. He is well aware that this is a possibility, since we both have chronic illnesses requiring foreign-made refrigerated medications. Since our friends and relatives aren't preparing, there really wouldn't be much of anyplace he could go. What if he can't phone anyone or write a letter, even? Does he even know how to travel to various locations by pony, by bicycle or by foot? It helps to think these things through!

When I talk to him about a bad Y2K, I talk about it as a "bad bounce." He understands what happens when the super ball or golf ball hits a crack in the sidewalk and how it doesn't come back up to your hand as you expect it to do. The words "global economic collapse" are meaningless to him. We rent dystopian movies.

Kids process scary things through lots of play and day dreaming. They play cops and robbers and war games because they have to do it. They need to know about the challenges that they may face so that they can think things through in their own way and in their own time. He's never owned a toy gun before, but this year I got him one, thinking that he needs time to increase his awareness of guns. He wanted to be a soldier for Halloween. Rather than pick him up a tear -away Toys 'R' Us camo outfit, we went to the army surplus and got something that will last.

Disappointments are much easier to handle with forewarning. Practically as soon as I became aware of the negative potential of Y2K, I let my son know that his mid-December birthday party tradition might not work out this year. He's much better off knowing this ahead of time than causing a huge stink about it right when we most need to be not having to deal with that kind of problem. He is also aware that we won't be going to the Lake Tahoe area to ski (if I can prevent it). Practically every time he wants me to buy anything for him this year, the answer is "maybe next year," and he has informed me that this is getting old.

I'm sure some of you are thoroughly convinced by now that I'm a real killjoy of a mom. Well, that's my job. Actually, I'm firmly convinced that the best preparation for bad times is good times. With that in mind, we're being careful to attend our full share of parties. We stop off at the beach at every opportunity. We're having fun getting to know our new pony and taking FEMA's Emergency Management Institute training about Animals in Disaster.

Kristy, corinne1 (who I know is gone), Wilferd, Mumsie, and Will Continue, please read the thread again and consider that melanie merely stated that she disagreed that It would be sufficient to explain ideas such as power failures and practice for that. Her wanting to go beyond that amount of preparing a child does not equate to pumping them full of fear, needing to be slapped, unloading fear onto them, terrifying them, extinguishing joy, scaring the crap outa her kids, having kids who are sobbing and terrified, destroying them, transferring her own worst fears onto them, telling them the full monty, not shielding her children from every gritty potential aspect, scaring the bejabbers out of them or throwing down the gauntlet at you. You build a straw man when you define her position in this way. She never specified just how she wished to go beyond merely saying "The lights might go off."

Now, I've told you some examples of exactly how I have been preparing my son. I've provided what some might consider a shocking color photograph of my young son in BDU (i.e. camoflage). We've talked about nuclear explosions, biological warfare, being arrested, being an orphan, people possibly stealing his new pony, and missing some parties. He only whined about the parties. There direct your "you suck as a mother" comments to something with substance, and not at some nebulous idea of wanting to do more than just practice flipping the light switch.

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), November 09, 1999.

Wellllllllll. Thanks for you're opinion. Once again, you have managed to reenforce my opinion of a California 'bubble-head'. Of course, that's nothing more than MY opinion. Apparently you were never a child. You must have been born 21 years old and never moved beyond that phase.

I'd respond to the astounding number of what I view as disturbing practices of 'honesty', (that you have been so willing to announce in public even.....whewwww) in respect to raising an *8* year old child, but I'm totally unwilling to break into my cash of ***TAGAMET***

(the appropriate procedure for being ARRESTED????????? JHC-ALMIGHTY)

Luckily for you, this is SUPPOSEDLY a free country and you may raise your child any way you see fit. It is a fact that one reason WE are homeschooling, is due to the frightening number of emotionally disturbed children that have appeared bunched up in classrooms for 7 hours per day. The thought of being forced to expose our kids to some of these individuals (who are sadly being raised by 'disturbed' adults and in many cases, INSTRUCTED by them) for a longer portion of the day than we were able to spend with them was simply unacceptable and negligent.

I respect your RIGHT to do as you see fit.....but I do NOT respect YOU for some of your pea-brained views. I shall simply leave it at that, as I'm currently having difficulty keeping my shaking hands in place on my keyboard.

This post of yours does not surprise me in any way, coming from a person who would actually suggest burying a barn on an ISLAND.

HAVE YOU EVER DUG A HOLE ON AN ISLAND????????? Much less one DEEP enough to place a barn in? Chickens don't do the backstroke honey.

Good luck to you and may I extend my deepest sympathy to your innocent 8 year old son. Please do not judge me as lacking compassion when it comes to other people. The truth is, I have only so much of it to go around (I'm not Jesus) and consequently, I ration it out to those I find to be worthy of recieving it. My list grows shorter with each passing day in our current society.

Bring on the cull..............

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), November 10, 1999.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr (pic), near Monterey, California

Will Continue said: This post of yours does not surprise me in any way, coming from a person who would actually suggest burying a barn on an ISLAND. HAVE YOU EVER DUG A HOLE ON AN ISLAND????????? Much less one DEEP enough to place a barn in? Chickens don't do the backstroke honey.

Having lived in Michigan for about ten years, I was aware that it is quite a marshy state. However, it is my impression that water intrusion problems are confined mostly to the center of the lower peninsula, and not to the coastal regions, unless, of course one is actually standing on a beach. Where we lived (near the Saginaw Bay of Lake Huron) everyone had basements without need of sump pumps. My family's home had a basement even though we were quite near to a fairly large creek. The Mackinac area, like most of the northern portion of the lower peninsula is very hilly. Perhaps you have heard of Boyne Mountain, which is in that region.

As far as I am aware, an island location does not necessarily dictate that one cannot have underground structures. I would think that that would be influenced more by the elevation of the property, and the depth of the water table at that location. It is possible that the water table would be above the level of the surrounding lake, but more likely that it would be lower. Bois Blanc Island is over 72 square miles. If mere nearness to a large body of water were a factor, then nobody in my current neighborhood could have a basement, since we live close to the largest body of water in the world, the Pacific Ocean.

Although I have seen Bois Blanc Island from the mainland, I am not intimately familiar with its topography, so in this case, you may be right. However, in my own defense (for anyone who may be interested), I would just like to point out that I did not pretend to know what the Stitt Family should do. My barn burying idea appeared in a private e-mail to them which I copied to several other forum members. Now that they have abandoned their farm I am comfortable displaying that letter on my own website. I will be happy to let the reader decide whether or not my idea was so very obviously flawed. In any case, it was presented not as advice but merely as something to consider.

I guess I just don't really care to address the remainder of Mrs. Continue's letter except to say that it makes perfect sense to me that she should be stockpiling Tagamet.

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), November 12, 1999.

Four paragraphs of, "I am NOT stupid", followed by an announcement of refusal to address any further, my suggestion that you are dumping excessive fear and concern on an emotionally underdeveloped growing mind.

Eight year olds don't give a shit about Mommie's IQ. They just want the security of knowing that Mom and Dad can 'handle it'.

Better start doing YOUR damned job and reassure him that if you have anything to do about it........it'll be OK. Rather than slapping him with fears of becoming an orphan, perhaps you should have put more effort into ensuring his safety would be provided for him by another friend, relative or GROWNUP. Get a grip on your own fears first and then formulate the *needed* solutions for *calming* his. That is an absolute requirement for the emotional stability of an *8* year old child. Why would you insist upon requiring an 8 year old to deal emotionally with the problems most adults are unable to resolve? You're asking him to pick up the slack for YOUR failures to ensure his safety? Grow up.

Some Mothers eat their young......

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), November 12, 1999.

Melanie is an immature spoiled person who feels much put-upon by this heavy burden that has been thrust upon her and; by damn, somebody will share the misery even if it has to be the kid. She desperately needs all the attention she is getting as she thinks it will ease her pain. It won't. MHO

-- Anna Smith (qualityed@aol.com), November 13, 1999.

I read my first y2k site in Jan. 99. Got it right away. I then began to prepare. I told my kids to shut-up as Mom may be wrong... or right. They did. Nine months later they have begun asking questions? The media, as we all know is becoming aware or released to provide more acurate information. Now they are asking more relevent questions. They are looking worried. Did they look worried 9 mos. ago? NO! Because I spared them that. Children live now.

I am a mother of 7. Two natural births (My Loves) 3 step- children (My Loves because I choose them) 2 Foster children adopted. (My succeses!]I know how to give and love and teach. I also know how to keep quiet for the greater good. Let them live the best way they know how. It is our responsibility to take care of the furture.

Ages, 23, 20, 18, 17, 16, 14, 8.

Thank you, Hatti

-- Hatti (klavine@aol.com), November 13, 1999.

Anna: I like 'bottom line' people. Thank you.

Hatti: You have just addressed what would have been my next response, "What if you're WRONG?". Thank you for displaying the true meaning of maternal. If we were to take in strangers and do our best to provide for them, they would be children....all of them. We'd tell the adults to come back for them just as soon as they get their shit together (morons). Please tell that NG husband of yours that Will Continue said, "God Bless America", would you?

The majority of responses on this thread have proven that GI's are centered, responsible and stable citizens, full of common sense. Very few have proven the Polly position that we are unthinking, fear- mongering, irrational people who are hell-bent on spreading paranoia and creating suicide statistics.

A united force of mothers would be found to be more formidable than any army. I pity the fool that messes with anything in MY nest.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), November 13, 1999.

Melanie is an immature spoiled person who feels much put-upon by this heavy burden that has been thrust upon her and; by damn, somebody will share the misery even if it has to be the kid. She desperately needs all the attention she is getting as she thinks it will ease her pain. It won't. MHO

I can't believe you people are still going at this. I changed my perspective over a month ago if you'd bother to read. But I guess you'll think what you want regardless of what the facts are. A lot of people here are like that.

-- (Melanie@my.place), November 13, 1999.

Dancr: "There direct your "you suck as a mother" comments to something with substance, and not at some nebulous idea of wanting to do more than just practice flipping the light switch."

Don't be an ass.

Withholding information/emotions/fears/anger/sorrow is not necessarily equivalent to lying. Particularly when we are talking about IF and MIGHT.

Suppose we are biting our nails waiting for a client to pay so we can do mundane things like buy groceries and pay the utilities.......

Scenario one: "Mom, can we stop and rent a video and eat at McDonalds?" ....(me) "Not tonight Honey."

Scenario two: "Mom, can we stop and rent a video and eat at McDonald's?"....(me) "We need to try hard to save money right now, but we can watch one of the videos we have in the closet, and I'll make popcorn for you."

Scenario three: "Mom, can we stop and rent a video and eat at McDonalds?" ....(?Dancr?) "Now Junior, not only is McDonald's unhealthy, and watching videos a waste of time, but you know that we need that money for more food, ammunition and potassium iodide. I'm so sick and tired of not having enough money for preps, and it makes me feel even worse when you ask for things like that! Say, did I tell you yet about my hemmorhoids and ingrown toenail? How about my menstrual cramps? Did you ever think about how I might have a brain aneurism while driving us home? We might crash into a pole and your little brains would go all over the street. Or you could be crippled for life. Maybe you should live in a wheel chair next month, just in case, then you'll be ready for it. Your father and I were arguing about money last night. Sex hasn't been so great since his surgery. Should we review reproductive anatomy? I wonder if Grandpa will cheat on Grandma now that she's laid up in the nursing home?....Why are you plugging your ears Junior? It's in your best interests to know the truth, the whole truth, and every possible thing that might be the truth!"

Or...how about the days I have PMS and I get mad at Hubby dear, decide he is an insensitive jerk, and the world stinks in general (especially the world of Y2K). Should I spill my guts to the kids? Or do I take a hot bath, get a good night's sleep, and start fresh the next day? Do they need a play by play if their Dad and I have an argument? Don't think so. (If you tell me that you and your significant other never argue...well, BWAHAHAHAHHAHA)

On the other hand, what makes you ass-ume that we aren't teaching the kids practical skills, or discussing to a certain degree serious issues? With degrees according to their age levels, our kids do know about many and various scenarios. We also homeschool (to a degree 'unschool'..although I believe in a mix of the two) and have incorporated practical life skills into our 'curriculum'. Guess what? Surprise, surprise,...All my kids have camo. Their Dad is planning some drills, plans to implement them like a game, but they will be familiarized if the game turns serious down the road. We have discussed briefly what would happen to them if anything happens to us. blah blah This is not an either/or deal here. Balance is the word. A Norman Rockwell life? Puhleeze.

I've appreciated many of your posts, but this crapola that vaunts your parenting and insinuates that all we do is teach the kids to flip a switch is....well, crapola.

Melanie was plenty inflammatory herself. It was a heated topic. Parenting issues can be. I was disappointed that she didn't seem willing to meet us part way, seemingly insistent on retaining victim status.

If something does ever happen to me, I hope there is someone like Will continue, Wilferd, or Lilly around who will 'mother' my kids. Yeah, we have to be killjoys at times, but every child deserves to sleep the sleep of innocence. Teach them skills, but don't hang fear around their little necks.

Before I vamoose to Lurkersville, a big hello to you W.C.!

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), November 15, 1999.

Melanie was plenty inflammatory herself. It was a heated topic. Parenting issues can be. I was disappointed that she didn't seem willing to meet us part way, seemingly insistent on retaining victim status.

LOL, thanks for proving my point.

-- (Melanie@my.place), November 15, 1999.

Melanie...No, you have just demonstrated your attitude once again, that everyone else was mean and bad and insulting...except, of course, you. I just said you were ALSO inflammatory. This, of course, implies that others were too. If I was wrong about you not going partway here, show me the part of the thread I missed.

-- Mumsie (shezdremn@aol.com), November 16, 1999.

Melanie...No, you have just demonstrated your attitude once again, that everyone else was mean and bad and insulting...except, of course, you.

LOL! Please point out where I demonstrated this "once again". Thanks.

If I was wrong about you not going partway here, show me the part of the thread I missed.

You weren't wrong about that. Just the part about my being "insistent on retaining victim status." I changed my perspective over a month ago and moved on. I certainly don't feel like a victim. But you can believe what you want, makes no difference to me.

-- (Melanie@my.place), November 16, 1999.

Okay...how about saying something to the effect like, 'yes, it was a topic with a lot of hot buttons...easy to misunderstand...I MAY have come across in a way that I did not intend to...'etc. etc.

Was I wrong to say that you ALSO (not you alone) entered into heated and inflammatory communication? Others tried to make conciliatory responses...did I miss yours?

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), November 16, 1999.

Also, sorry I apparently missed something you posted a month ago. I'm not on the forum much anymore, even as a lurker. Someone sent me this thread recently.

Therefore, I don't really have an opinion on your Y2K perspective. When I used the word victim, it was in reference to my perception that you seemed critical of others (in that particular thread) for things you yourself were guilty of (in that particular thread).

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), November 16, 1999.

No problem, I haven't been back to this thread in a while myself. I still can't believe it's being dredged up again. In any case, I hope we can agree to disagree and leave it at that. Best wishes to you and yours.

-- (Melanie@my.place), November 16, 1999.

Thanks Melanie, we might even agree on more than we think!

Good wishes returned!

-- Mumsie (shezdremn@aol.com), November 18, 1999.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr (pic), near Monterey, California

I've started a rather lengthy reply to recent contributions to this thread. I can't bring myself to finish it or post it as is, because it seems to me that it only gets mired down in argument, instead of encouraging folks to consider the wisdom of helping their children to prepare mentally and emotionally for what may come. I may post it yet, but in the meantime, you may be interested in reading .

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), November 19, 1999.

doh... in reading what my son has to say about Y2K.

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), November 19, 1999.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr (pic), near Monterey, California

Sorry it has taken me almost a week to respond. I needed to decompress a while and compose myself.

In preparing our children to handle any future, not just a bad Y2K bounce, we should be especially aware that our children learn less from what we say to them than they do from what we actually do. I assume that we all would like for our children to grow to be honest and trustworthy. The telling of made up stories about George Washington's mythical cherry tree would be a less powerful method than would be striving our utmost to be scrupulously honest in our dealing with others, and especially in dealing with our children.

If we want our children to know how to find the self-confidence to eventually question government authority and corporate public relations messages, they need to be not entirely shielded from the notion that such sources of information may be less than truthful.

If we want our children to be prudent and grow to be responsible for themselves and their own actions, they need to be aware of much of what we do to prepare for an uncertain future as well as what we do to protect our selves and our families.

If we want our children to be mentally and emotionally ready to face possible massive disruptions in their lives (which could come at any time), we need to give them the benefit of an opportunity to imagine possible scenarios and consider how they might behave. It is helpful for children to know that adults don't automatically have all the answers and that they also have to go forward into uncharted waters. By observing this fact they gain the confidence to venture forth creatively into an uncertain future, in their own time.

Children can learn something about how to effectively handle stress when we give them a window into our lives, and let them be "with" us, to some degree, even when things aren't going hunky dory. It helps me to be a better person whenever I become consciously aware that my son is watching me. I think I always know this on some level, even though I don't always manage to make myself proud. I know that I am modeling for him how to cope, and by extension, I'm modeling for any children he may help to raise. This is probably the most significant way that I will leave my mark on the universe.

If we want our children to know how to control their emotions, especially their anger, we can practice learning this ourselves. One of the most important skills in life is to be able to truly listen to what someone else has to say, and to be generous attributing motive when someone has views differing from our own. It's very difficult to treat others with courtesy when we believe that they are being discourteous to us. I think this kind of social skill can only be learned through modeling and practice.

My son and I read together, many of the posts that I contribute to this forum, as well as some of the ones written by other people. I would not be ashamed to let him or my mother read any of the ones I've written. In fact, I think I'll go read this one with them both right now. Can you say the same about your children and what you write? I wouldn't care to encourage mine to read what some of you write. If you knew that your children were watching, would you change your ways? Well, they are watching you! They're trying to be as much like you as they can possibly be until they find their own inner voices. Let's be careful out there!

Beginning well before now, our children are witnessing how we are handling what will probably be the biggest fiasco human kind has ever faced. Let's hope we can find a way to survive that will make them proud. The best of luck to you in that regard!

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), November 25, 1999.