How would we know the truth about Russia if not for Jeff Nyquest? I thank God and pray for him.

======================================================================

Behind the turmoil in Russia

) 1999 WorldNetDaily.com

According to a Moscow Times editorial, the Kremlin has destroyed evidence at explosion sites where nearly 300 Russians have been killed in recent terrorist bombings. In one instance, at the obliterated apartment block on Ulitsa Guryanova, vital clues were lost when security officials employed a "controlled implosion" to bury the remains of the building. This was done 10 days after the terrorist attack.

Compare this performance to that of the Oklahoma City bombing case, in which five weeks elapsed before the site was imploded. Russian officials are in a hurry to get past the evidence, to wage a subtle propaganda war against a mysterious undeclared enemy. Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, former chief of Russia's secret police, has stated that "there is no doubt" that the Moscow bombings are linked to the Islamic incursion in Dagestan.

And who is behind the Islamic incursion?

In terms of assigning blame for the incursion, Prime Minister Putin initially zeroed in on two key countries -- Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. These countries were said to be supporting the Islamic warriors in Dagestan and Chechnya. In response to this charge, Saudi Arabia denied giving support to the Islamic warriors. In a curious reversal, Russian officials welcomed this denial.

If the Kremlin was not fishing for a scapegoat, if it had positive evidence of Saudi and Pakistani involvement, then why would the Kremlin welcome the Saudi denials? Perhaps some further enemy of Russia is to be assigned ultimate blame (in the fullness of time). One has to wonder. Perhaps that enemy is America, which has already been blamed for "looting Russia" and orchestrating NATO aggression against Russia's Serbian "brothers" in Eastern Europe.

The immediate leaders of the Islamic incursion into Dagestan are Shamil Basayev and Habib Abdel Rahman Khattab. According to Russian reports, Basayev and Khattab did not receive support for their incursion from the people of Dagestan. The war is not an uprising of unhappy native Moslems. Instead, it is portrayed as an externally supported invasion of Russia. It has been claimed that Basayev and Khattab are relying on Islamic fighters from all over south and central Asia, as well as Chechnya.

Basayev is a Chechen leader and Khattab is a Saudi-born Moslem veteran of the Afghan War. It is a strange fact that Basayev and Khattab come from conflicting Islamic traditions. Khattab comes from the Islamic fundamentalist tradition, which greatly differs from the liberal Sufi tradition of Basayev's Chechens.

The inconsistencies of the alliance between Basayev and Khattab point to the fact that their Islamic cause is only a mask. Underneath that mask lies a secret network of KGB agents established during a Communist sponsored Islamic revival which was initiated by Gorbachev's Politburo in the late 1980s. Aiming at a controlled regeneration of Islam in Soviet Central Asia and the Caucasus, Gorbachev authorized the opening of Mosques and the publication of Islamic periodicals. Islamic holy men were admitted into the Soviet army to comfort Soviet Moslems. Mullahs were even put on Soviet television.

It can be argued that the Communist-directed Islamic revival of ten years ago was part of a long-term preparation for a controlled civil war. This civil war now masks a general Russian mobilization of military and secret police resources. Tens of thousands of arrests have already taken place throughout Russia. Untold numbers of troops have been secretly mobilized. A state of undeclared emergency prevails in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and other former Soviet republics. And while this internal crisis supposedly absorbs the Russian military, Moscow's bombers nonetheless find time to aggressively probe U.S. air defenses in Alaska, as they did last Friday. When the United States sent fighters to intercept the Russian bombers and drive them back, the Kremlin howled with outrage. The bombers weren't violating Alaskan air space, said the Russians. They were merely traveling to the extreme tip of Russia. It is an odd time to be renewing the gamesmanship of the Cold War. In truth, military preparations and mobilizations continue throughout the former Soviet Union. As these words are written the Russian and Ukrainian Black Sea fleets are engaged in joint military exercises.

We must not take today's turmoil in Russian at face value. The calculated bungling in Russia's past military campaign against Chechnya should be obvious to anyone who knows the competence of the Russian General Staff. Chechen independence is therefore a sham. Economic and geographical factors alone make real independence a virtual impossibility for the breakaway province. The old KGB structures held the region tightly for decades. All opposition was systematically crushed. In fact, the only opposition possible in that region would be an opposition created by the KGB itself for use in the future as "strategic camouflage."

American observers need to be wary of outward appearances when it comes to modern Russia, which is a country founded on deception. It must be emphasized over and over again, that Russia's undeclared state of emergency now masks extensive war preparations. The Russian people are now being psychologically prepared for a war that might extend far beyond the borders of the Russian Federation.

On Dec. 20. Mr. Putin -- who is now Russia's prime minister -- delivered an address to the Russian people on the occasion of the 82nd birthday of the Bolshevik secret police. He spoke of the glorious traditions of the KGB. He praised the efficiency and sophistication of the sword and shield of the Communist Party Soviet Union. We all need to remember that the KGB always maintained that the "main subversive forces" opposed to Russia were based in America and Great Britain. We should not be too surprised, therefore, if America is ultimately blamed for the civil war in Russia. Everyone knows that the CIA armed the Islamic warriors in Afghanistan. By extension, the CIA could be blamed for the Islamic warriors in Dagestan.

In recent days we've been treated to a serious of sinister hints. One Russian official, speaking vaguely, recently said that "the giant would soon be destroyed in its lair." Behgjet Pacolli, a businessman accused of laundering millions in cash for the Kremlin, declared, "It's all a big joke. Today the joke is not understood, but in a little while you will get it."

I fear that some of us already know the punch-line.

Nyquist

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), September 23, 1999

Answers

peace2u@bellatlantic.net), September 23, 1999.

Jeff Nyquist's Website

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), September 23, 1999.

Sorry, I think anyone who believes Russia is going to start something is just plain paranoid. Most Russians barely have the means to start a fire when it really gets cold and the hot water goes off. When someone tells you that Russia is in bad shape, don't believe them. It's far worse than that.

My wife is Russian. Her last name? Guryanova!

-- Y2KGardener (gardens@bigisland.net), September 23, 1999.

You and your wife aren't spies are you gardener? :-)

"IT'S NOT PARANOIA WHEN YOUR FEARS ARE BASED ON FACTS."

-Tom Sullivan

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), September 23, 1999.

Sssshhhh! Don't tell anyone!

I'd like to add that during the Cold War the Russians told their people exactly the same thing about those evil Americans. Even if governments don't suffer from paranoia, they sure like spreading it around.

-- Y2KGardener (gardens@bigisland.net), September 23, 1999.

That's the best time to start a war!

-- CygnusXI (noburnt@toast.net), September 23, 1999.

Remember Sun Tzu's Art of War

it goes something like this

"feign weakness when you are strong" "strength when you are weak"

-- kergan (debunker415@hotmail.com), September 23, 1999.

All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when we are far away, we must make him believe we are near. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him. -Sun Tzu

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), September 23, 1999.

Gardener,

Don't equate an economy in ruins with a ruined military. Their economy is the way it is because all the money is being channeled into the military and rest into the leaders bank accounts. The Russian military threat is real and in it's final phase. Go ahead and click on Nyquist's website, and then go read his articles on archive on worldnetdaily.com ......He is not being dogmatic at all. He simply understands that you cannot trust the communists. Never could, never will. Nothing personal against your wife of course, unless she's a communist.

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), September 23, 1999.

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001IhO

Yeltsin is ready to fight espeically with "westernizers?"

-- 40 cans of crisco (is @that.enough), September 23, 1999.

BB,

Thanks for the post. Those of you who look at Russia and see a country in ruins due to a corrupt, inept government see exactly what the Russians intended you to see. There is ample evidence to suggest that Russia (still a potent military force) is in fact preparing for war, if one wants to take the time to look into the matter.

Just like Y2K, most people want to believe the spin. That is most unfortunate...

-- Nabi (nabi7@yahoo.com), September 23, 1999.

I'm not necessarily agreeing with Nyquists predictions, but what BB says about the state of Russian military might versus their economy is correct. They just unveiled a fighter jet that is the most advanced in the world. And look at the Japanese economy - its so bad for some parts of the workforce that 100 people a day are offing themselves, yet others, who are still employed, wait in line to buy the latest electronic toys.

-- a (a@a.a), September 23, 1999.

40 cans of crisco,

Love your handle..LOL rotf in tears. Can you elaborate on this handle please?

I have to leave to pray with other ministers. We meet every Thursday at 12to1 to pray for revival, this nation and all of you. We actually have witches sorcerizing against us. I find myself crying to God to have mercy. If you don't think America is ripe for judgments. Go and read Ezekiel 16:45-52 then 14:12-23 then chapter 5. Learn about God's strange act called judgment in chapters 1-24. These were on His people. Take note Christians. Judgment begins with us. Ezk. 9

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), September 23, 1999.

Dear b.b., maybe y2k will separate the sheep'from the goats,the hirelings from true pastors,i sure hope so,the wolves in sheeps clothing need to go.

-- not sirprised. (dogs@zianet.com), September 23, 1999.

Nabi,

I'm offended by your suggestion that I look into the facts of the matter. What do facts have to do with it? We KNOW the Russians are weak as a baby - the t.v. told us so. EVERYONE believes they are not a threat. How can they be a threat? They're humiliated and backed into a corner, where they can do no harm. Yes, they've made an alliance with China, but China is our friend; their threat to nuke LA was just a way to boost their self-esteem. They can't hurt us. We should feel sorry for them.

-- Donut (Donut@inthebag.com), September 23, 1999.

Via Stratfor

[posted for educational/research purposes only]

0125 GMT, 990923  Russia Losing Trans-Caspian Race

Citing the ongoing dispute over ownership of Caspian Sea oil, Russias Foreign Ministry announced on Sept. 20 that Moscow will not recognize Turkmenistans effort to extend its sovereignty over part of the inland sea. Russias protest, however, will not stall U.S.-backed efforts to build the Trans-Caspian pipeline, nor will it accelerate Russias own pipeline project in the Black Sea.

The legal status of the Caspian  and claims of ownership by Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan -- have stalled the Trans-Caspian pipeline project. As Gazprom, Russias oil monopoly, is trying to outpace the U.S. project and supply gas to Turkeys growing market, this dispute has worked to Russias advantage.

According to Gazprom chief executive Rem Vyakhirev, this is a race for control of supply that either Russia or Turkmenistan can win. On Sept. 21, Azerbaijani President Geidar Aliev explained to Russias Fuel and Energy Minister Viktor Kalyuzhny that the international status of the Caspian Sea would finally be settled, presumably in early October when the five Caspian states hold a meeting in Iran.

After that meeting, Russias attempts to contest the construction of the U.S.-backed Trans-Caspian pipeline will become irrelevant. The governments of Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan will be able to reach a territorial agreement. Russia undoubtedly will protest, but will have no legal means to block the project further.

The Trans-Caspian project has also gained financial strength over its Russian-backed competitor. Support from Royal Dutch Shell, made official in August, secures the Trans-Caspian funding requirement of $3 billion. This makes Shell a 50-50 partner in the pipeline with the joint venture of General Electric and Bechtels PSG International. Protest or no, Trans-Caspian will be on-line in 2002, and will likely outpace Russias ambitions to control gas export to Turkey.

On the other hand, the Black Sea project is threatened by regional competition and internal politics. Fuel and Energy Ministry infighting and the conflict in Dagestan seriously hamper the schedule. If the Trans-Caspian goes through first, Turkmen state-run energy companies TurkmenGaz and Turkmenneft will pose a direct threat to Gazprom. They could even usurp Gazproms regional power.

In a broader sense, the cultivation of Turkmenistans energy sector challenges Russias traditional role in Central Asia. So long as the Trans-Caspian project maintains its schedule, Russias energy policy will have little effect on Central Asia, and will not subvert U.S.-Turkmenistans monopoly over oil exports to Turkey and Southern Europe.

info@stratfor.com

) 1998, 1999 Stratfor, Inc. All rights reserved.

#################################

-- regular poster (staying@incognito.now), September 23, 1999.

Not surprised, Would you email me please.

Donuthead, Are you related to Jimmy baggadonuts or crisco by any chance? There's an awful lot of empty calories on this thread all of a sudden. LOL You are tongue in cheek aren't you? I hope so. If not you are dismissed from this thread.

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), September 23, 1999.

hey now BB don't throw me into the category as donutboy. as for my handle well thats how many cans I have stored. i like biscuits for breakfest. One day I went to Meijer grocery store to but some stuff and the 48 oz size of crisco was ringing up .97 I told the cashier that was wrong it was 3.28 she said no the computers NOT wrong its .97 -so I went back in and cleaned off the shelf 40 cans of crisco.

Ever since I got control of my own emotions regarding y2k i have long thought our biggest problem is going to be how other countries react y2k. I still do now more than ever.

Thanks for your post!

-- 40 cans of crisco (is@that.enough), September 23, 1999.

Don't worry --the rapist and his wife will be quite safe inside their bunker if and when the commies launch on us. If a few million of us die, well, sacrifices must be made for the greater glory of socialism you know. You can't make omelets without breaking some eggs. The rapist will feel our pain, and comrade Rodham will feel what she always feels for us, namely, contempt.

-- Tom Knepper (thomas_knepper@intuit.com), September 23, 1999.

Let's hope it's ONLY a few million.

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 23, 1999.

Hey '40 cans' that's hoarding isn't it? LOL What are you going to do for eggs, yeast and salt etc.? You know, man cannot live by 40 cans alone?

Sorry for lumping you in with 'nothing in the middle' man. No pun intended.

Just a thought.....but if you wanted you could make 40 cans of biscuits now, eat them now, and have a mobile food storage cache. :-) just a thought. Only problem is that you'd have to change your name to Pillsbury Doughboy. Guess that doesn't have the same ring does it?

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), September 23, 1999.

40 cans, I baptize you with a formal handle for government purposes:

The Count of Meijer Crisco It is one of my top five stories btw.

What was the Count of Meijer Crisco? Why forty cans of course.

Btw Count, Conniry says you can eat lard raw for food.

Also, I agree with your assessment of the problem of the other nations. Btw, do you know where Crisco is produced?

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), September 23, 1999.

Well I had to know where it was made so I called P&G and the lady on the phone said Cincinnati.

1 can of crisco + 3 bags of S.R. flour + some powdered milk = biscuits for a month.

My brother-in-law was a Baptist preacher and died in a care wreck last year at age 28. I have great respect for what good ministers do. i'm sure you fall into that category.

Thats al-d you asked for the e-mail on just thought you would like to know.

Thanks for the new handle!

-- The Count of Meijer Crisco (40@cansof.course), September 23, 1999.

This is priceless!!:

--He is not being dogmatic at all. He simply understands that you cannot trust the communists. Never could, never will. Nothing personal against your wife of course, unless she's a communist.--

Feels like stepping into "The Wayback Machine", to about what? Uh...1948-1950?

Definitions 101:Communism and its counterpart Capitalism are economic systems. Totalitarianism and its counterpart (cough, cough)Democracy, or representative democracy, are political systems. Obviously these distinctions are no longer taught in the US. I suppose there is a lot of secondary gain to be had in trying to keep the so-called Cold War alive in one's mind, however. We would rather be ruined than changed
We would rather die in our dread
Than climb the cross of the moment
And let our illusions die.
W.H. Auden- from The Age of Anxiety (1948)

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), September 23, 1999.

You know, I haven't checked out this Nyquist guy, yet, but I have taken the time to check out Stratfor. Nothing special. These guys are news analysts, just like any other news analysts, that you would see on one of the networks, with no greater or lesser credibility. This is one of those cases where someone gets INSTANT CREDIBILITY, simply because he or she is outside the mainstream. Stratfor is viewed as some sort of god, by some people, simply because he backs their paranoid suspicions about other nations.

All Stratfor is doing, is taking the same intelligence available to CNN or MSNBC or one of the broadcast networks, and saying, "Maybe it doesn't mean what they say it means. Maybe it means this OTHER thing, over here." Ok....maybe. But just because Strafor says it so, doesn't PROVE it.

-- Bokonon (bok0non@my-Deja.com), September 23, 1999.

I have posted before on how I believe the Lord speaks to us through synchronistic events and experiences. some of you agreed, some of you laughed, but then some of you laugh at any post that evens mentions God. I think he spoke today. To the whole nation.

George C. Scott died today. So? George C. Scott of course portrayed Patton, who warned that if he were not allowed to invade Russia at the end of World War II they would ultimately destroy us. Of course we all know Patton was a brilliant military strategist, arguably the best general the United States has ever produced.

Scott also portrayed the slightly eccentric General in Dr. Strangelove. A character obsessed with the threat of the Soviet Union launching a full scale nuclear attack on the U.S., a situation which seems emminently more likely with each passing day.

Scott died of an intestinal annurism, which certainly must have been a mess for the coroner who performed the autopsy, but certainly leaves us with a clear reference to Old Blood-n-guts. Bad times a coming.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), September 23, 1999.

Donna, Is there no difference between the two systems? For you, would it matter if the system of this country were communism or capitalism? I really don't want to defend capitalism either but it is the best of the two evils.

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), September 23, 1999.

Nik,

I was surprised to hear about Scott. I just saw a movie with him, Jackie Gleason, and Paul Newman were pool hustlers. Scott was an excellent actor and as you say, made a great General Patton.

People won't listen. They don't care. It won't be because someone didn't try to tell them.

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), September 23, 1999.

BB,

Thanks for links. I personally think Russia and bad times are coming. Your post about prayer on Thursday caught my attention. Our church is praying for revival also. We are having a national day of fasting and prayer event middle of November. We are very concerned about judgement coming to America etc. You also mentioned witches etc..could you expound on that? I have been hearing alot about that type of thing. Email is real if you want to use it. Maybe we can join hands in prayer, so to speak.

-- Moore Dinty moore (dac@ccrtc.com), September 24, 1999.

Hi Beefstew,

Yes, a Christian came to our minister's prayer meeting and told us that witches are definitely praying against us, churches and Christians. I've known it and it was made public by Perriti's book, "Piercing the Darkness".

Our area is said to have a blanket of darkness over it and that it is has one of the biggest coveys of witches on the east coast! So we have been praying against it for the past year.

I don't fear the darkness, I fear the LORD, but Christians who aren't aware of witches can be affected by them. I claim 1John 4:4 and 5:18.

Eph. 6:11-13 about says it all. "Be strong in the Lord and in the strength of HIS might." Christians have to realize we are in a war and put the armor on to do battle. Victory is assured and certain. Why?

"See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe and not according to Christ. FOR IN HIM THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD DWELLS BODILY....and He disarmed the principalities and powers and made a public example of them triumphing over them." Col. 2:8-15 "All authority belongs to Christ now through His victory over darkness on the cross. Would that everyone knew this.

Rev. 12:7-17 reveals that the devil is after the woman in the wilderness (the church).

And the Apostle Peter writes this in 1 Peter 5:8-11. "Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking some one to devour. Resist him, FIRM IN YOUR FAITH, knowing that the same experience of suffering is required of the brotherhood throughout the world. And after you have suffered a little while the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will Himself restore, establish, and strengthen you. To Him be the dominion for ever and ever. Amen. "

If you want to discuss this further Dinty, email me.

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), September 24, 1999.

Count, I made an assumption you were a count, but my wife thinks you may be a Countess. We may have to go through a formal process to change your name.

With the authority vested in me as the originator of this thread, I order you '40 cans of crisco' to report and supply the information requested. You may wait until you finish your bisquits...

INFORMATION REQUIRED TO CHANGE NAME:

1) Sex

2) General location of country

3) Prediction from 1-10 of y2k effects

4) Favorite recipe for bisquits. (not required. substituted for SSN) This will validate your claim as the true purchaser of 40 cans of crisco.

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), September 24, 1999.

BB asked me: "Is there no difference between the two systems? For you, would it matter if the system of this country were communism or capitalism? I really don't want to defend capitalism either but it is the best of the two evils. "

I did not say they were the same. There is a difference in the two systems as theoretical constructs. As they have been practiced on Planet Earth, the differences get a tad blurry, leaving all economic systems looking more and more like ...."rule by the rich", whether that rule is economic or legislative. Also, the choice of evils is called a Hobson's choice; not acceptable, and not a choice. Same with political systems as they operate on our lovely planet. The choosing of the lesser of evils is no choice at all. It's always been very interesting to me that large masses of people can be convinced to give over "rule" of their lives to people they don't know, and could never know. Nice work if you can get it, this "ruling people" business. Or as Mel Brooks said in History Of The World, Part I:

"It's good to be the king!"

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), September 24, 1999.

Capitalism: wealth buys and controls government

Communism: government "obtains" (snicker, snicker) and controls wealth.

Most economies today fall between these two extremes.

I say that while each has advantages, there has to be another way that respects how humans naturally interact with one another. > 95% of our evolution was geared toward humans' adaptation to a hunter-gatherer society. Probably there is still a lot of "caveman" in us, and I mean that in the most flattering, non-judgemental kind of way.

For people to realize their fullest potential, we have to recognize basic individual human rights as per democracy/captialism. On the other hand, recognizing human rights is not really enough, because a lot of human needs are neglected in a world that only thinks of "individual rights." When individual rights are supreme (and they should be), only the individual matters. But as John Donne says, "No one is an island." To truly be a free individual one must be social to a degree.

Humanity is fractal, or at least it ought to be. Groups of people should personify what goes on in the individual human. Therefore, while individual rights are important we might want to consider the rights of "groups." What group am I talking about? Corporations? Kibbutzen? State bureaucracies? No no no. I am talking about TRIBES. That's right. TRIBES. We have forgotten about something basic and human, the TRIBE. This concept was stolen from us by big governments or huge mutlti-national conglomerates who wanted you to owe their allegiance to a beehive, not a few persons. The nuclear family was established as the basic economic unit for the industrial age, making tribes and clans obsolete. Now in the post-industrial information age, economic pressures are now even making the nuclear family difficult to hold together. The tendency is toward human lonliness and isolation, a system that rewards conformist drones more than humanity and creativity.

So Communism and Capitalism both fail. Tribes succeed? I am I crazy or what??!!

No I am dead serious. I don't mean casting away the shackles of technology and living in an igloo. I mean reinventing the notion of the tribe for our own times. I have not yet articulated this well, but maybe I'll be back some time to babble on some more...

-- coprolith (coprolith@rocketship.com), September 24, 1999.

BB

1) I am the son of a biscuit eater.

2) Corydon Indiana

3) Prepared for a 6, preparing for an 8, hoping for BITR.

4) 1/4 cup Crisco, 2 cups all purpose flour, 1 tbls sugar(if you want it), 3 tsp. baking powder, 1 tsp. salt. Mix dry ingredients cut in Crico into flour add milk. Knead on foured surface not too long just till dry, if you knead too long the dough gets tired and the biscuits turn out flat. Roll to however thick you want cut into circles and bake at 450 for about 10 minutes.

You can also increase the milk to 1 cup and "drop" the dough by spoonfuls and bake thus the term drop biscuits.

I hope this helps verify my status as a biscuit eater--if not maybe I sould tell you of the 15 Gallons of Aunt Jemimah I have stored.

Breakfest is the most important meal of the day until you try to goto sleep hungry.

May I keep my handle?

-- The Count of Meijer Crisco (40@cansof.course), September 24, 1999.

>>So Communism and Capitalism both fail. Tribes succeed? I am I crazy or what??!!

No I am dead serious. I don't mean casting away the shackles of technology and living in an igloo. I mean reinventing the notion of the tribe for our own times. I have not yet articulated this well, but maybe I'll be back some time to babble on some more...<

I think we are in good company, coprolith, in thinking such things. Not only that, but for the sign readers decentralization and tribalism appears on the horizon as inevitable. And the question remains, what kind of world are we going to build from that inevitability. While the old paradigms limp along and roar to scare away change. What kind of world are we to build?

We would rather be ruined than changed.

We would rather die in our dread

Than climb the cross of the moment

And let our illusions die.

W.H. Auden, (1948), from "The Age of Anxiety"

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), September 24, 1999.

Yes, Count....your credentials are in order......you may now return to the faceless forum crowd from whence thou has come. By the power of my threadly office I officially bestow the title of Count, but only on this forum.

This title entitles you to flame pollies, warn of impending NBC threats from Russian/Terrorist enemies of all true bisquit eaters, and once a week you must share info on good bisquits on the Preparation Forum. Godspeed bisquiteater, may your Aunt Jemina never go bad, and when makeing bisquits may the fan always be at your back.

One last question before you go. Did you really call the Crisco factory in Cincinnatti to ask if they were compliant or what?

Got butter.

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), September 24, 1999.

Donna and Coprolith, I now understand your hopes. I would love to see them materialize. Capitalism is just as great a crime in God's eyes as Communism because of its pride, greed and worship of mammon.

A tribal system will still require feudal Lords to protect and provide. There was basically a tribal/fuedal system in the middle ages. Not sure I want that.

Donna, how shall we bring these monolith power structures down? Well, they are now in a deathdance for world domination. One only will win. I and others are afraid that the communist economy is run by totalitarian thugs who are ruthless and are clearly preparing to attack this nation. Get your sheets and head for the mountains. See Ezk. 7. It is the only hope for a brave new world, that is if our Maker does not intervene first. See the last chapter of Nyquist's "Origens of a Fourth World War" for the exciting aftermath of a nbc attack. Love your prose :-)

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), September 24, 1999.

There's actually been members of the Soviet Navy starve to death in the Russian Far East. Elsewhere they're fed dogfood. They are totally demoralized and ineffectual. They can't whoop up on the measley Afgans or Chechens. Every recent conflict between US/Western military technology vs Soviet stuff has resulted in huge lopsided western victories (ie Iraq, Serbia).

Here's my question: The west has undoubtedly known about the upper level Russian payoffs and corruption for years. The fact that we are now coming out and publicly fingering members of Yeltsin's immediate family for payoffs tells me something has deteriorated of late in terms of US/Russian relations. What do u all think?

-- Downstreamer (downstream@bigfoot.com), September 24, 1999.

>>>Donna, how shall we bring these monolith power structures down? Well, they are now in a deathdance for world domination.<<<

At the risk of sounding overly simplistic, these:

1. "We" do not have to do anything. As you have pointed out, they are toppling themselves.

2. Insofar as I do not give my life/energy over to support the declining systems they weaken. As fewer and fewer individuals give over their life/energy to the systems, no longer shore them up because of the notion "that there is no other way", they become weaker still.

3. A study of whole systems theory directly applies to all our individual questions about the birth/growth/death of dynamic systems.

Maybe not what you are looking for, but I'm enjoying the dialogue nonetheless.

--She in the sheet, who's hilltop is in her mind.

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), September 24, 1999.

I'm the one who is going to topple....discussing abstract political science with a poet who throws out 'study of whole systems theory". Are you trying to intimidate me my fine sheeted friend? Well, guess what you have. Who are you and what do you really know? I refuse to expose myself anymore. Regardless, of how these present monolithic systems end up, D , they may try to go out with a bang. Sorry for the simplicity.

Maybe this isn't what you are looking forward to either but in my world, all major political/economic systems rise and fall. We are presently witnessing the fall of two. Y2k is going to speed up the process. What I see in the future is either a Mad Max scenario, or the Maker of the human race deciding to pay a visit.

-Wondering what the name of the hilltop is.

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), September 24, 1999.

Downstreamer,

It has taken these NWO flaks this long to finally say something that's all. They have been trusting Yeltsin to spend the money properly. Yes they know what they have been doing, but not totally. Russia is now in default on major loans to the IMF. They have to loan Russia money to make their payments so the default can be delayed. They want to make sure Russia is going to make the payment and not pocket it. Aren't they stupid. At least that's my read.

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), September 24, 1999.

The Count of Meijer Crisco ---- Thanks for the Biscuit recipe. How much milk do you use, [that was left out of the recipe]. Can you make them with butter rather than crisco?

-- thinkIcan (thinkIcan@make.it), September 24, 1999.

Niki wrote, "I have posted before on how I believe the Lord speaks to us through synchronistic events and experiences. some of you agreed, some of you laughed, but then some of you laugh at any post that evens mentions God. I think he spoke today. To the whole nation. "

I can safely say I didn't laugh. I believe this too.

I lost my father when I was 13. He was a real man who lived a very tough life which included seeing family members beheaded for no other reason than "war is hell". Much of the rest of his life which was spent in the military. He was a kind man, generous to a fault and still tough as nails. I don't think anyone called him by his name, including my mom. He was, the Sarge.

What a high threshold for pain he had. At the point when he was so ill with cancer that the morphine couldn't help anymore I knew the cries he made out for help only illuminated the very tip of the true amount of pain he felt. I can imagine that his seeing my mom in such emotional pain might have been even worse for him to live with.

George C. Scott was one of his favorite actors and he loved the movie Patton. I still remember sitting with him on his hospital bed at home as we watched the movie together just a few weeks before his death. My father wanted to die at home but he didn't get the chance. I'm glad ol' George did.

My dad asked me to sit with him again only a few days before he went into the hospital for the last time. I wanted to go out and play but he insisted I sit for a moment. In no uncertain terms, he asked that I take care of his family. He asked that I care for my mom. I hear his voice every day. If I could have known, if I had a choice, I would have sat on the bed with him much longer.

Dad, I'm doing my best. Say hi to George for me, I'm glad you'll get to meet him finally. Say hi to the Duke for me too.

My dad knew a "nation" is an abstract concept. He fought on a little, tiny pacific island nation - lost it and just about everything his wealthy family had - and then helped get it back again. His age at that time wouldn't qualify him for a drivers license today.

We have a problem. We're confused as a "nation". If we are attacked and fight only to gain back or hold territory or "systems" we are doomed to fail. There has to be something more.

Chances are that when someone you love is taken into the street and beheaded your sensibilities and reasoning change. Then, everything becomes about survival. Survival of your family, survival or your freedom and your beliefs. If eyes had been open beforehand to the signs of the times back then perhaps much death and pain could have been avoided.

Right now, the majority in our country are living with their eyes shut. What the heck does our nation really believe in anymore?

Mike

=====================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), September 24, 1999.

Niki wrote, "I have posted before on how I believe the Lord speaks to us through synchronistic events and experiences. some of you agreed, some of you laughed, but then some of you laugh at any post that evens mentions God. I think he spoke today. To the whole nation. "

I can safely say I didn't laugh. I believe this too.

I lost my father when I was 13. He was a real man who lived a very tough life which included seeing family members beheaded for no other reason than "war is hell". Much of the rest of his life which was spent in the military. He was a kind man, generous to a fault and still tough as nails. I don't think anyone called him by his name, including my mom. He was, the Sarge.

What a high threshold for pain he had. At the point when he was so ill with cancer that the morphine couldn't help anymore I knew the cries he made out for help only illuminated the very tip of the true amount of pain he felt. I can imagine that his seeing my mom in such emotional pain might have been even worse for him to live with.

George C. Scott was one of his favorite actors and he loved the movie Patton. I still remember sitting with him on his hospital bed at home as we watched the movie together just a few weeks before his death. My father wanted to die at home but he didn't get the chance. I'm glad ol' George did.

My dad asked me to sit with him again only a few days before he went into the hospital for the last time. I wanted to go out and play but he insisted I sit for a moment. In no uncertain terms, he asked that I take care of his family. He asked that I care for my mom. I hear his voice every day. If I could have known, if I had a choice, I would have sat on the bed with him much longer. Dad, I'm doing my best. Say hi to George for me, I'm glad you'll get to meet him finally. Say hi to the Duke for me too.

My dad knew a "nation" is an abstract concept. He fought on a little, tiny pacific island nation - lost it and just about everything his wealthy family had - and then helped get it back again. His age at that time wouldn't qualify him for a drivers license today.

We have a problem. We're confused as a "nation". If we are attacked and fight only to gain back or hold territory or "systems" we are doomed to fail. There has to be something more.

Chances are that when someone you love is taken into the street and beheaded your sensibilities and reasoning change. Then, everything becomes about survival. Survival of your family, survival or your freedom and your beliefs. If eyes had been open beforehand to the signs of the times back then perhaps much death and pain could have been avoided.

Right now, the majority in our country are living with their eyes shut. What will it take to make them open their eyes? Is there enough common ground for Americans to stand together?

Interesting times...

Mike

===================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), September 24, 1999.

opps...sorry for the double post...my browser and aol are screwy today.

yeah...I know...a day like any other day : )

Mike

====================================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), September 24, 1999.

I don't like being silly following such a good post as Mike just articulated so don't get this wrong Mike.

BB yes I did call the Crisco factory in cincinnati but only to ask where it was made nothing else. I will wear my "count" title with the respect that it deserves and uphold the title to the like of biscuit eaters everywhere!

Sorry I left out the amount of milk in the recipe it 3/4 cup. Mostly I just add ingredients and don't really measure. I use 2 big spoonfuls of Crisco I don't measure out a half cup. Yes I have made them with butter and it worked out fine. I have even dropped them by spoonfuls into bacom grease and fried them in a pan.

Biscuits are versitile.

Enjoy!

-- The Count of Meijer Crisco (40@cansof.course), September 24, 1999.

roflmao Count...send me the recipe please ; )

I gotta get out and grab some Crisco before it's all gone!

Mike

====================================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), September 24, 1999.

BB wrote: "Maybe this isn't what you are looking forward to either but in my world, all major political/economic systems rise and fall. We are presently witnessing the fall of two."

No disagreement from me on the subject of the political systems and their dance to death. The 19-20th century ones already mentioned are not the first. I suppose I am curious about what is to come. I am not fearful. I'm looking forward to living my life no matter what. I'm deeply appreciative of the opportunity to dialogue in this way, despite the fact that I go into fuzzy, tangential, but not unrelated areas. I'm not interested in the least in the kind of platonically dualistic stuff that passes for political commentary, either at our fabulous Yourdon Asylum, or anywhere. It is way too easy to lapse into black/white dichotomies when viewing and discussing the world and social systems, (something I see as part of "what's wrong with the fading systems.") Systems are static and seek to remain in static equalibrium. They are successful or not based upon the free flow of information, AKA feedback loops. Systems cannot be reformed. They do change, however. BTW, for anyone else interested Whole Systems Theory developed out of the study of cybernetics. Searching the internet on that term, or whole systems will reap a number of links.

Here's one: http://magna.com.au/~prfbrown/capra_0.html

The Systems View of Life (Capra)

I love the dialogue. Be well everyone.

--She in the sheet,...

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), September 24, 1999.

Michael, the post on your father was the most moving post I have read on this forum. I am looking forward to meeting him some day. He is the reason America use to be great. God bless. b

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), September 24, 1999.

Donna,

After reading your post, I feel like four sheets to the wind. :-)

platonically dualistic stuff that passes for political commentary You lost me. :-) Not hard after a heavy spaghetti dinner... Are you stating an opinion or referring to me? It's not like it doesn't make sense you know. It's the dualistic part that throws me. :-) I'm glad you are not fearful. Peace

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), September 24, 1999.

Hi BB,

Great post. My favorite book on spiritual warfare in The Three Battlegrounds by Fancis Frangipane. Have you ever read it? If not, I suggest you put on your list. It could be an invaluable reference book.

-- More Dinty Moore (dac@ccrtc.com), September 24, 1999.

Dinty, Frangepane just released a book on how y2k is nothing and that America is just beginning her rise to power. He said that judgments are not coming to America. It will be hard for me to buy that book.

Count, I heard you made some posts that weren't very nice. I am very disappointed. Care to explain? I thought you were a Christian?

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), September 25, 1999.