[from Counterpoint: Response for Mr Yourdon]

[polly-style "thinking" on]

So, Hoffmeister is an SAP (Stress/Anxiety/Panic) guy? And he touts what a great solution SAP is for... Y2K!

Does anybody else see a PROFIT motive there?

So, everything he says about Y2K is crap.

[polly-style "thinking" off]

-- Lane Core Jr. (elcore@sgi.net), September 22, 1999.

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LOL. Too funny, Lane.

Actually, I don't tout SAP. It just happens to be what I'm currently doing.

In any case, the idea that anything I post here would influence anyone with the actual ability to purchase SAP is probably one of the funniest things I've seen in quite awhile.

-- Hoffmeister (hoff_meister@my-deja.com), September 22, 1999.

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Lane:

You don't need to look any too hard to find real doomer style thinking along these lines, you know. You don't even need to make it up.

Some people have said, SAP is working poorly at Lucent and Hershey. THEREFORE SAP is a crock of shit. Hoffmeister is a SAP consultant. By association, Hoffmeister is a crock of shit also. THEREFORE, we don't need to pay attention to anything he says.

This train of thought has been posted, in various forms, for quite a while. Meanwhile, in reality (remember reality, Lane? You ought to reintroduce yourself periodically) Hoffmeister is pointing to failed SAP implementations in support of his argument that y2k is causing bigtime problems right now. As with Lucent and Hershey.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), September 22, 1999.

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Hoff and Flint, you two are too funny.

I posted a typical Polly ploy. You both pointed out how stupid it was.

Exactly my point, boys. Exactly my point.

Thanks. :-)

Too predictable.........

-- Lane Core Jr. (elcore@sgi.net), September 22, 1999.

-- Lane Core Jr. (elcore@sgi.net), September 22, 1999

Answers

Took them about 2 1/2 seconds to take that bait.

I love it when a plan comes together. :-)

-- Lane Core Jr. (elcore@sgi.net), September 22, 1999.

Don't want to leave anything out here, Lane..the follow-up response:

------

Yes, Lane, seeing more of this supposed cunning from you lately.

Let's see:

Comparing the ability of my posts here to influence multi-million dollar corporate decisions,

With the ability of people like Ed Yourdon to influence individuals decisions on Y2k.

Yep. Pretty much a draw there, Lane.

-- Hoffmeister (hoff_meister@my-deja.com), September 22, 1999.

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-- Hoffmeister (hoff_meister@my-deja.com), September 22, 1999.

Just keep right on proving my point for me. Thanks.

-- Lane Core Jr. (elcore@sgi.net), September 22, 1999.

Hey, Flint!!!!

It's time for you to argue the other side now.

-- Lane Core Jr. (elcore@sgi.net), September 22, 1999.

You've lost it, Hoff.

I posted a stupid Polly ploy to show how stupid it is. Then you point out how stupid it is. I thanked you for that. And then you point out again how stupid it is.

Yourdon ripped Greespan to shreds, and you couldn't stand it.

Too bad to see such a tremendous downfall: you were the only Polly on earth for whom I had any respect.

(So, are you going to prove my point again? Let's see........)

-- Lane Core Jr. (elcore@sgi.net), September 22, 1999.

Lane, flint-boy and hoffkeister are flying in ever decreasing circles until 'poof'! they fly up their own respective asses. Next they will be accusing more people of anonymous posting to discredit their idiotic hijinks.

-- Paul Milne (fedinfo@halifax.com), September 22, 1999.

Always willing to help, Lane.

Let's see.

Some stand to directly profit by creating FUD surrounding Y2k, by expressing the "doomer" view. Correct?

Now, help me here, Lane. Just how does my being an SAP consultant allow me to profit from expressing an optimistic view?

Do SAP sales increase?

Do I get more contracts?

In fact, wouldn't I have actually stood to profit more by expressing more "pessimistic" opinions, that remediation attempts were "doomed", and the only "hope" to install SAP?

Truly wish to keep helping you make your point, Lane. But ya have to help me out here.

-- Hoffmeister (hoff_meister@my-deja.com), September 22, 1999.

Paul:

Nice to see you posting under your own name. Care to apologize?

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), September 22, 1999.

What I liked on that thread was how in one breath Hoff is saying how Ed has profiteered on the FUD, and then in the next Flint points out that Ed hasn't made any more money of y2k than his regular consulting. What a confused pair.

-- a (a@a.a), September 22, 1999.

What would you expect from idiot pollys??

-- (mjones@barker.net), September 22, 1999.

'a':

Your reading comprehension problems are causing you problems again. The point made by ALL THREE of us (me, Hoff and Yourdon) was that Yourdon TRIED to profit from y2k, and it didn't pan out very well.

Let me try to help you here. Yourdon saw the Big Bucks, because his 35 years of experience told him that breakdowns were sure to cascade starting no later than Jan 99, and "end all speculation" by April 1 because things would be so bad. Experience gave him this insight, and he decided to make a BIG career move to position himself. Write a book, participate in MLM, give speeches, whatever.

If you read Yourdon's reply to Hoffmeister carefully, he's implying just what I've said. I'm not reading between the lines. He placed his bets on y2k and they didn't pay off. OK, nice try, too bad. But a profiteer isn't necessarily one who succeeds, but rather one who tries. It's what Yourdon tried. Hasn't worked yet.

If I understand Hoffmeister correctly, he's saying that at this late date, Yourdon feels considerable pressure to turn up the warning volume level, to shift in Gary North's direction. Possibly in the hopes that some public panic, even if not justified by actual computer bugs, can be used later to justify a losing gamble and FUD the error away.

However, I'm perfectly willing to accept that Yourdon is still convinced he's right in principle, but just guessed wrong about the timing. And in that case, it's understandable for him to follow an argument that says we're *already* in the worst of times with respect to y2k computer problems in general, and we're not hurting all that bad.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), September 22, 1999.

Give it up Flint, you have no credibility here anymore. Your "shoot the messenger" technique here reeks of desperation. Only 99 days to go now Flint. Time's almost up. Your twisted logic is on it's last legs now, thank goodness.

-- Disgusted (disgusted@fedup.com), September 23, 1999.

Hoff, I had a few off-line conversations last night about how you simply would not see how you are proving my point.

Let me say it again, Hoff.

I posted a typical Polly ploy BECAUSE THE TYPICAL POLLY PLOY IS STUPID.

And you keep right on showing HOW STUPID THE TYPICAL POLLY PLOY IS.

Which means that you are proving my point.

Get it yet?

Geesh.

(How do you like it in central PA? LOL.)

-- Lane Core Jr. (elcore@sgi.net), September 23, 1999.

Lane, it's very nice that you're having "off-line" conversations.

Perhaps you can have an "on-line" conversation here?

For your "point" to be correct, expressing my "optimistic views" would have to increase my "profits" as an SAP consultant.

Would you like to answer the questions above?

Or are you going to keep ducking?

-- Hoffmeister (hoff_meister@my-deja.com), September 23, 1999.

Except that it wasn't really a "typical Polly ploy," was it?

Ooops.

-- (missed@the.target), September 23, 1999.

Lane,

Let's just say you are wrong in your guess (hunch?) about Y2K. When will your realize it next year? And will you post on this board with an explanation or why you were wrong? Just curious.

-- The Engineer (The Engineer@tech.com), September 23, 1999.

Since I perceive Y2K hassles intuitively, I never argue full- page with the pollies. Can't do it. And don't wanna, since I'm the warning type rather than the debating type (has to do with a funky Mars in Libra aspect of my horoscope or something.)

I have some painfully-gained mainframe & application recovery experience in my purse. I'm pretty much on even footing with the technical pollies, even though my expressive skills are pathetic.. (remember, it's my intuition, backed by real-life failures experience that causes me to fear Y2K).

I've always admired the optimists (Hoff, Flint, bks, even CPR) who so doggedly prosecute the doomer position (although it's always felt exactly like the "why do I have to take a bath" arguments we all have) and am intensely fascinated by their naivete. (These are grown men we're talking about! And, in many cases, twice my age! Where the hell is their disconnect coming from?!?!?)

What I don't understand, lately, is why I no longer care about them personally. Why I have a hard time being polite with them. Why I don't care to see them eat crow next year. An old boss quoted once: "The opposite of love is not hate. It's indifference."

I guess I don't understand why I feel like the pollies aren't bringing anything to the debate anymore. It's too late for arguing.... can't they just take their leave?

Y2K is over, man.

-- lisa (lisa@work.now), September 23, 1999.

Lane, flint-boy and hoffkeista' be flyin' in eva' decreasin' circles until 'poof'! dey fly down deir own respective asses. Nest dey gots'ta be accusin' more sucka's uh anonymous postin' t' discredit deir idiotic hijinks. sheeit!!!

-- Fuh'rina Milne (fedinfo@halifax.com), Septemba' 22, 1999.

-- Doomers 'R Neurotic (laughing@dipshit_doomers.now), September 23, 1999.

"An old boss quoted once: "The opposite of love is not hate. It's indifference." "

Lisa, indifference kills in this case, and so it is the opposite of caring. Hate is still the opposit of love, in my view.

But I feel the same as you do.

-- Chris (#$%^&@pond.com), September 23, 1999.