We had our plumbing & heating guy come by and give us a walk-through about what to do about our furnace, pipes, septic, etc. Showed me how to drain the part of the house most susceptible to freezing. He'll add antifreeze to our hot-water heat system in early winter, so we won't have to drain it. Advised pumping out our septic just before end of Dec. so it'll have lots of room for water we pour down sinks, etc. (Our drain field, unfortunately, is uphill from the septic.) And said use windshield washer antifreeze for the sinks, etc. washbowl: 1 cup tub: l cup toilet tank: 1/2 cup toilet bowl: 1/2 cup This based on having drained the system first.

-- Shivani Arjuna (SArjuna@aol.com), September 20, 1999

Answers

Shivani, isn't antifreeze something pets seem to be attracted to that is poisonous?

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 20, 1999.

Yes, Mumsie, antifreeze is poisonous and has a very sweet taste that attracts pets to consume it. It is also poisonous for people.

What I have heard that can be used as an alternative is _RV antifreeze_. This is supposed to be non-poisonous. It has a "GRAS" denotion on it's packaging that means "Generally Regarded as Safe". Evidently people with RVs use it to keep their pipes from freezing when/if storing their RV.

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Shivani,

I'm interested in the reaction of the P&H guy-- did he know you were asking because of y2k concerns? Did you do anything special to conceal various preps? If so, what did you do? And if not, did the P&H guy make any comments?

I guess that might sound kind of rude, and I don't mean it to. I really am interested in whether he said anything about an increase in calls of people wanting them to come out and do similar walk-throughs (gauge of awareness). Also interested because we may need to have a p&h guy out ourselves. I didn't GI until the end of June, so it's not like we have major preps, but after reading a lot on the forum, the idea of having someone in does give me pause.

-- winter wondering (winterwondering@yahoo.com), September 20, 1999.

I thought that if you drained all the water lines in your home by shutting off the main water supply line and then turning on all faucets in the house till they all drained, that there would be no need to add something like windshield washer antifreeze. Why would that be necessary if you have drained your line? Is it because, there would still be water sitting in the toilet tank and toilet bowl? How would you drain the water out of those? Thanks for the help.

-- Diana (healthy53@hotmail.com), September 20, 1999.

Hi!, Diana...You are correct about draining the water pipes by opening faucets including the lowest, usually outdors on the side of the house. The toilet trap should =NOT= be drained, the water keeps noxious sewer gasses and odors from getting into your house. Ditto for kitchen sink traps, bath lavatory traps, drains for washing machines, and even foor drains such as showers. This is where you would want anti-freeze, to prevent the traps from rupturing. I would definately use the RV antifreeze in the in house drain traps.

Depending on the winter weather where you live, you might want to drain the hot-water tank if it is in an unheated garage, but remember, the hot-water tank contains 30+ gallons of water, which could be used as an emergency water supply. The tank is usually well insulated and would probably not freeze for several days (again depending on your winter climate), so I would use that water first for drinking until the tank is empty.

The toilet tank can be emptied simply by flushing, the water remaining can then be mopped out with a rag or sponge.

Fish bowls and Aquariums? Find a way to keep'em warm! :)

Just my .02 worth........

Ray in OKC, OK

-- Ray (raymondo@prodigy.net), September 20, 1999.

Diana, unless whoever plumbed your house planned the system to drain out completely (all pipes sloped continuously downward to a faucet or other point of drainage), a certain amount of water will remain in the low points of the pipes. Believe it or not, these can freeze and break a pipe, although they will sometimes freeze without breaking the pipes. Don't know why sometimes the pipes break and sometimes not. I have some outdoor hose bibs (faucets) which freeze repeatedly every winter but have never broken. Yet other hose bibs have to be protected, as they will break when the freeze.

So, to be completely safe when draining your water lines, you can either 1)blow out the lines with compressed air after draining them, or 2)fill them with an antifreeze solution--but make sure it's one which is allowed in your water supply. I didn't know there was such a thing, but BELIEVE that propylene glycol, a cousin of ethylene glycol, is used in some ice cream products. Better check it out before using it, I'd say.

Why all the interest in draining the pipes, folks? Are you planning to leave for an extended period? Or just don't have a way to keep house warm without power?

Al

-- Al K. Lloyd (all@ready.now), September 22, 1999.

Hi Ray and Al, Thanks to both of you for your comments. I have a 3-story home (actually 2-story with a finished attic). I live in Pittsburgh and in January/February it can get cold enough to freeze pipes (5 to 35 degrees). I am concerned that if power is off more than a day or two that my pipes will freeze. Without electricity, I will be using a small kerosene heater that I expect will only be heating a portion of the first floor. Typically, I also leave my furnace vent open in the cellar and it keeps the cellar reasonably warm where there are also a lot of pipes. But I don't expect to have heat down there either. I have a sink on 3rd fl., toilet, sink, and tub on 2nd fl., toilet, shower, sink, and washing machine on 1st fl. Then, in the cellar there is a washing machine & tub with more water lines, etc. So, I'm somewhat puzzled. I think I can get them drained, but I guess I would have to try to find a plumber to put the RV antifreeze in after January 1 if power is off. But if that's the case, he may not be coming out to work -- and I don't think I could properly do it myself. But I guess draining them is better than doing nothing.

-- Diana (healthy53@hotmail.com), September 23, 1999.

Hi Diana,

I see what you're trying to do, now. Considering the enormous expense you will incur should your pipes freeze, then thaw out and flood your home, I recommend that you purchase some more portable heaters--one for each space where you need it. For a bathroom, even in your climate, you won't need much heat to save the pipes, I shouldn't think (but a caveat here; it depends on where your pipes are located, e.g. on an outside wall, inside wall, etc. and whether there is insulation between the pipes and the cold air, or if insulators put the insulation over the pipes, in effect making it much more likely that the pipes will freeze. I'm a builder, and this actually happens quite often. I once had to repair almost a dozen broken pipes in a fairly new house, because some dummy insulated it wrong. The heat was off, as the windows and doors were out, when there was a cold snap. We kept having new leaks show up (in the form of the house being flooded) every day or two for several days, as the pipes gradually thawed out.

If the power is out, and you don't have water pressure anyway, sure, drain the pipes. If you have water pressure, you'd likely do well to leave all your faucets running a little bit. This will keep the water from freezing, if it doesn't get too cold. The colder it is, the more water you need to leave running. You can monitor the temperature coming out of the faucets in order to make sure they are flowing at a rate that keeps the water well above 32 degrees fahrenheit.

Good Luck!

Al

-- Al K. Lloyd (all@ready.now), September 26, 1999.

Al, Thanks for the info. Every little bit helps. Appreciate your help. Diana

-- Diana (healthy53@hotmail.com), September 26, 1999.

Al, I read your answer about freezing pipes and wondered if you could give me some answers. I live in a home that will be heated with a wood stove and am expecting that I will have adequate heat so that my pipes will not freeze. What then if any preps do I need to protect my home if the electricity goes off? If the gas to my furnace and fireplace and water heater goes out? If sewage backs up? I am very unsure of myself when it comes to this. I know where my outside gas is turned off and have the tool to do it, but then I heard that the gas co would need to turn it back on. Would I need to turn it off for any reason? What happens when the gas company would restore the gas after they have stopped it and I had not turned off the main valve? What needs to be done if I shut off my electricity at the CBreaker in regards to the furnace, etc when I turn it back on. Sorry for all these questions, but you seem to understand homes well. Thanks

-- S Graham (manatee@netzero.net), November 14, 1999.