So here we are. This list is essentially the culmination of two months of debate on this topic, and hopefully we can now put the issue to rest for a while. The following games have been discussed in open forum for 10 days, and everyone that wished to has had the chance to voice their opinion. With the direct collaboration of gameboy, skito, Dave, and myself, we now present the FINAL list to you of QUESTIONABLE GAMES for this and all prior beta cycles. Every new beta cycle the games on this list will be re-examined and re-evaluated. PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO PLACE A SIMPLE YES OR NO VOTE ON EACH OF THESE GAMES. THEY HAVE BEEN ORDERED BY PROBLEM FOR YOUR CONVENIENCE. IF THIS VOTE DOES NOT REACH A SUITABLE CONCLUSION, BE IT PASS OR FAIL, THEN WE WILL BE BACK WHERE WE STARTED TWO MONTHS AGO, AND NOTHING WILL BE RESOLVED. THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF FLAMING AND GENERAL BAD FEELING AT MARP OVER THIS TOPIC. FOR THE SAKE OF A FRIENDLIER, MORE UNITED MARP, AND AN EASIER JOB FOR ZWAXY, PLEASE CAST YOUR VOTE SO THAT WE CAN BURY THIS ISSUE AND RETURN TO WHAT WE CAME HERE FOR--TO PLAY.

If anything, ANYTHING is unclear, please e-mail me at qan@home.com or skito at churritz@cts.com before casting your vote. Thank you for your patience. Below there is a list explaining the terms used in this posting.

Notes:

If there are scores, it indicates that there is currently a massive tie for the game.

The parentheses indicate the problem with the game, so you can decide to vote to keep or ban it temporarily, or ban it permanently.

'BROKEN' means that the game is broken to the point of being unplayable. Such criteria would be an invisible character, no collision detection, random scoring problems, no/severely warped player control, etc.

Games listed as 'TOO EASY' are games which are too easy to reach a maximum score at on a single credit, or which repeat themselves to the point where it is overly easy to get a maximum score (no, we're not talking about Pac-Man here)

Games listed as 'DOES NOT PLAYBACK' means that this game does NOT play back in ANY version of MAME. Your voting will determine whether this game will be permissible with a SCREENSHOT or whether it shall be BANNED until it is poossible to play it back.

'IMPROPER CONTROL ADVANTAGE' refers to a massive advantage gained in a game by playing it with something like a keyboard instead of an actual trackball--to the point where you can attain a perfect/close to perfect score. From Stig's comments, admittedly the average MARP player might be able to do better with alternate controls on Marble Madness or Crystal Castles, but I'm betting the pros wouldn't. An ICA means that the spirit of the game is undeniably altered/destroyed by using a different controller. Conversely, if you can't accept this, accept the fact that there are between 10-20 way ties for most of the games under this heading--and not for Discs of Tron or Robotron.

Finally, I have listed Fax as a single entry--it is really 4 entries that will be voted on at once(the four categories)

alexkidd -- (broken)

battlan2 10 (broken)

battlan3 10 (broken)

battlane 10 (broken)

cabal 550 (broken)

cabal2 550 (broken)

darkplnt 5000 (broken)

fitter -- (broken)

bowler-fl 8410 (improper control advantage)

bowler-rg 300 (improper control advantage)

bowlrama-bj 420 (improper control advantage)

bowlrama-br 300 (improper control advantage)

bowlrama-fm 9600 (improper control advantage)

capbowl 300 (improper control advantage)

capbowl2 300 (improper control advantage)

clbowl 300 (improper control advantage)

medlanes 300 (improper control advantage)

robotbwl 300 (improper control advantage)

shuuz 36 (improper control advantage)

shuuz2 36 (improper control advantage)

breakers -- (does not playback)

breakrev -- (does not playback)

carnvckt -- (does not playback)

flipshot -- (does not playback)

headon2 -- (does not playback)

lastbld2 -- (does not playback)

blockade 6 (too easy)

checkmat 6 (too easy)

dominos 4 (too easy)

fax 85300 (too easy)

lazercmd 15 (too easy)

lottofun 5000 (too easy)

sucasino 200 (too easy)

comotion 4 (two player game)

gunfight -- (two player game)

warrior -- (two player game)

THANK YOU FOR YOUR EFFORTS. THE VOTING WILL CLOSE IN 10 DAYS FROM NOW. AT THAT POINT, THE RESULTS WILL BE EXAMINED AS A GROUP AT MARP, AND WE WILL DECIDE HOW TO PROCEED BASED ON THOSE RESULTS.

Sincerely, Q.T.Quazar

-- Q.T.Quazar (qan@home.com), September 19, 1999

Answers

As you have asked, and I have complied with, here are my votes... (Fitting I am first, since I have been most critical of banning anything)

alexkidd -- (broken) YES, TEMP battlan2 10 (broken) YES, TEMP battlan3 10 (broken) YES, TEMP battlane 10 (broken) YES, TEMP cabal 550 (broken) YES, TEMP cabal2 550 (broken) YES, TEMP darkplnt 5000 (broken) YES, TEMP fitter -- (broken) YES, TEMP bowler-fl 8410 (improper control advantage) NO. 8410 ISN'T TOP SCORE AVAILABLE, WHAT IS THE IMPROPER CONTROL? bowler-rg 300 (improper control advantage) NO, EVEN THOUGH I CAN'T SCORE 300 bowlrama-bj 420 (improper control advantage) YES, UNTIL THE OVERLY FAST SPEED MOVEMENT IS FIXED bowlrama-br 300 (improper control advantage) SAME AS ABOVE bowlrama-fm 9600 (improper control advantage) SAME AS ABOVE capbowl 300 (improper control advantage) NO TOO BAD PEOPLE SCORE 300, I KNOW I CANT capbowl2 300 (improper control advantage) SAME clbowl 300 (improper control advantage) SAME medlanes 300 (improper control advantage) SAME robotbwl 300 (improper control advantage) SAME shuuz 36 (improper control advantage) SAME shuuz2 36 (improper control advantage) SAME breakers -- (does not playback) YES, TEMPORARY breakrev -- (does not playback) YES, TEMPORARY carnvckt -- (does not playback) YES, TEMPORARY flipshot -- (does not playback) YES, TEMPORARY headon2 -- (does not playback) YES, TEMPORARY lastbld2 -- (does not playback) YES, TEMPORARY blockade 6 (too easy) NO. TOO BAD! checkmat 6 (too easy) NO. TOO BAD! dominos 4 (too easy) NO. TOO BAD! fax 85300 (too easy) NO, TRIVIA IS NOT TOO EASY, EVER. AND I DON'T THINK THAT IS THE MAX SCORE POSSIBLE. WHAT IS EASY TO ONE ISN'T TO OTHERS. lazercmd 15 (too easy) NEVER PLAYED, SO I CAN'T VOTE lottofun 5000 (too easy) NO. HAVE YOU TRIED TO GET 5000 TICKETS, IT IS CERTAINLY NOT EASY sucasino 200 (too easy) NO. 200 IS NOT EASY TO GET FROM 1 CREDIT comotion 4 (two player game) YES, NO WAY TO PLAY AS 1 PLAYER gunfight -- (two player game) SAME warrior -- (two player game) SAME

-- Chris Parsley (cparsley1@hotmail.com), September 19, 1999.

alexkidd -- (broken) battlan2 10 (broken) battlan3 10 (broken) battlane 10 (broken) cabal 550 (broken) cabal2 550 (broken) darkplnt 5000 (broken) fitter -- (broken)

Yes, temporary.

bowler-fl 8410 (improper control advantage) bowler-rg 300 (improper control advantage) bowlrama-bj 420 (improper control advantage) bowlrama-br 300 (improper control advantage) bowlrama-fm 9600 (improper control advantage) capbowl 300 (improper control advantage) capbowl2 300 (improper control advantage) clbowl 300 (improper control advantage) medlanes 300 (improper control advantage) robotbwl 300 (improper control advantage) shuuz 36 (improper control advantage) shuuz2 36 (improper control advantage)

Can the inp file be checked for directional keystrokes? Abstain for now.

breakers -- (does not playback) breakrev -- (does not playback) carnvckt -- (does not playback) flipshot -- (does not playback) headon2 -- (does not playback) lastbld2 -- (does not playback)

Yes, temporary. Add Depth Charge?

blockade 6 (too easy) checkmat 6 (too easy) dominos 4 (too easy)

Yes, forever.

fax 85300 (too easy)

Unsure at this time.

lazercmd 15 (too easy)

Yes.

lottofun 5000 (too easy)

Yes. PS. 5000 requires more than 1 credit I do beleive. PPS. Chris, play back an inp file and use those same numbers. :)

sucasino 200 (too easy)

Unsure, probably yes.

comotion 4 (two player game) gunfight -- (two player game) warrior -- (two player game)

Yes.

-- Dave Kaupp (info@kaupp.cx), September 19, 1999.

alexkidd -- (broken) Never played it...

battlan2 10 (broken) Never played it...

battlan3 10 (broken) Never played it...

battlane 10 (broken) Never played it...

cabal 550 (broken) Never played it...

cabal2 550 (broken) Never played it...

darkplnt 5000 (broken) Never played it...

fitter -- (broken) Never played it...

bowler-fl 8410 (improper control advantage) Yes.

bowler-rg 300 (improper control advantage) Yes. Too easy. With a little trial and error, 300 is easily obtained.

bowlrama-bj 420 (improper control advantage) Yes. Too easy. See above.

bowlrama-br 300 (improper control advantage) Yes. Too easy. See above.

bowlrama-fm 9600 (improper control advantage) Yes.

capbowl 300 (improper control advantage) Yes. Too easy.

capbowl2 300 (improper control advantage) Yes. Too easy.

clbowl 300 (improper control advantage) Yes. Too easy.

medlanes 300 (improper control advantage) Yes.

robotbwl 300 (improper control advantage) Yes.

shuuz 36 (improper control advantage) Never played it...

shuuz2 36 (improper control advantage) Never played it...

breakers -- (does not playback) Never played it...

breakrev -- (does not playback) Never played it...

carnvckt -- (does not playback) Never played it...

flipshot -- (does not playback) Never played it...

headon2 -- (does not playback) Yes, until it's fixed.

lastbld2 -- (does not playback) Never played it...

blockade 6 (too easy) Yes.

checkmat 6 (too easy) Yes.

dominos 4 (too easy) Yes.

fax 85300 (too easy) Never played it...

lazercmd 15 (too easy) Yes. In addition, I recorded a 15, but it didn't play back properly.

lottofun 5000 (too easy) Yes.

sucasino 200 (too easy) Never played it...

comotion 4 (two player game) Yes.

gunfight -- (two player game) Never played it...

warrior -- (two player game) Never played it...

Ben Jos.

-- Ben Jos Walbeehm (walbeehm@walbeehm.com), September 19, 1999.

Broken games - temporary ban until they're playable.

Two players required - probably no point in having them there for leaderboard points.

All other games - leave them there. If they're that easy and someone is really interested in the 100 points so be it. I personally haven't been bothered trying to find them and if I'm ever worried about unfair advantage there's nothing to stop me spending a day or two to get the "perfect" points along with everyone else.

BeeJay.

-- BeeJay (bjohnstone@cardinal.co.nz), September 19, 1999.

PS: By broken games I mean games that either don't play at all or don't playback after being recorded.

-- BeeJay (bjohnstone@cardinal.co.nz), September 19, 1999.

alexkidd -- (broken)

battlan2 10 (broken)

battlan3 10 (broken)

battlane 10 (broken)

cabal 550 (broken)

cabal2 550 (broken)

All above = Yes

darkplnt 5000 (broken)

No opinion - failure to play game

fitter -- (broken)

Yip

bowler-fl 8410 (improper control advantage)

bowler-rg 300 (improper control advantage)

bowlrama-bj 420 (improper control advantage)

bowlrama-br 300 (improper control advantage)

bowlrama-fm 9600 (improper control advantage)

capbowl 300 (improper control advantage)

capbowl2 300 (improper control advantage)

clbowl 300 (improper control advantage)

medlanes 300 (improper control advantage)

robotbwl 300 (improper control advantage)

shuuz 36 (improper control advantage)

shuuz2 36 (improper control advantage)

breakers -- (does not playback)

breakrev -- (does not playback)

carnvckt -- (does not playback)

flipshot -- (does not playback)

all above, yes

headon2 -- (does not playback)

If headon2 was released by m33b4, no, otherwise, yes

lastbld2 -- (does not playback)

blockade 6 (too easy)

checkmat 6 (too easy)

dominos 4 (too easy)

fax 85300 (too easy)

all above, yes - the same questions come back when you start the recording everytime.

lazercmd 15 (too easy)

lottofun 5000 (too easy)

sucasino 200 (too easy)

comotion 4 (two player game)

all above, yes.

gunfight -- (two player game)

warrior -- (two player game)

no opinion - failure to play

OK... that's it I believe... thanks 4 reading :)

-- Gameboy9 (goldengameboy@yahoo.com), September 19, 1999.

I`m not a veteran MARP-ER , or a Leaderboard contender...all I do is play games I enjoy playing and submit. But for the record , I`d go along with what BeeJay had to say. I don`t ( or would probably never ) play ANY of these games. But while the Subject Matter is about banning games , does/will this extend to banning certain techniques ? Y`know , the much maligned Auto-fire issue for starters , or the GNG scenario...etc. To conclude , ( although the games in question don`t apply to me ), I`ll vote the same as BeeJay. You know it makes sense......

ALEX

-- Alex Weir (alexweir@indigo.ie), September 19, 1999.

Broken: Yes Two player games: Yes Improper control advantage: No Too easy: No Does not playback: Yes

-- MvdV (cypr135@knoware.nl), September 19, 1999.

I will not vote for that issue for a few simple reasons: 1)I've never played most of the listed games, therefore I've no idea of how broken/easy/stupid/uncontrollable/etc. they are; 2)there are a couple of games listed that worth me 200 points, so I cannot vote for them; 3) I really wish to see one of this "banning" or "regulation" threads brought to the end with *facts*; I have the feeling that we all want to regulate MARP just in words, and that nothing is really done after discussing, and voting, and wasting time. MARP is still a Far West, with points leeching recordings worthing 100s of points, flooded of any kind of submission, with recording I actully wonder how they have been confirmed (German Krol's "DepthCharge", just to name one). It will not make a big difference, I know, but personally, I will not vote for any other issue in here until I'll see it worth to something.

-- Cicca (cicca@writeme.com), September 20, 1999.

Cicca, let me state quite simply to you or anyone else thinking of making such a lame post: this vote is intended as a once-and-for-all-time end to the discussion of 'extremely lame scores/banned games', and steps are being taken to transfer control of the banned games techniques/points leeching from Angry to another MARP player or group of players AFTER this vote has finished. But that again is a totally different, and as far as this vote is concerned, irrelevant discussion.

If you do not believe in democracy, fine; but your statements come across as both rude and obnoxious towards the people who have put their effort into compiling this list of games and listening to people's opinions on this subject over the last two months. You cannot have the moral high ground of saying that you will not vote on a list which you find silly and ill-conceived, and then turn around and complain that -BEGIN QUOTE- "3) I really wish to see one of this "banning" or "regulation" threads brought to the end with *facts*; I have the feeling that we all want to regulate MARP just in words, and that nothing is really done after discussing, and voting, and wasting time." -END QUOTE- This statement is both hypocritical and non-productive rhetoric.

This IS NOT a discussion post, this is a voting post, and my rant has gone on long enough (there was a full week and a half of discussion time to post about the vote). Therefore either vote yes, vote no, or go mind your own business elsewhere, Cicca. If you want to further discuss this issue in a new thread, fine. If you want to flame me, so be it, my e-mail is qan@home.com But leave this thread to those who actually want to make a difference.

-- Q.T.Quazar (qan@home.com), September 20, 1999.

I've made my votes, but I want to make one observation here quickly... How can most of these people, who haven't ever even seen the game, vote on whether it should be gone forever? Are we ready to reduce MARP to a once someone maxes a game out, (example Super Casino) we are going to yank it away. (Take that person's 100pts away?) MARP was designed for all MAME games, good and bad. If we start removing games now, we defeat MAME's purpose. If they are "too easy" as someone claims, why isn't there 200 postings of the "perfect game"? Simple, because it isn't that easy!!! MARP should stay the way it was designed to be. Simple.

-- Chris Parsley (cparsley1@hotmail.com), September 20, 1999.

What will happen if in the next MAME realeases will be included other games that could be considered "broken", or "x players", or "improper control advantage", or "too easy", or "does not playback" !?!

Is this really a "Final Vote" !?!? Will we vote again and again every beta, or every final version !?!

-- Cicca (cicca@writeme.com), September 20, 1999.

I'll apologize to you if I came down a little heavy, Cicca. But it really bothers me when people do not/are not paying attention. When you said that this was not a final vote, but just more hot air, you should be able to understand why I was annoyed. And I think you should also be able to appreciate that it is annoying to have someone who did not participate in the discussion leading up to this post come in and start reopening the entire issue again in a VOTING post. That is why I specifically asked that any new questions or concerns be routed to my or skito's e-mail, AND NOT THIS POST.

Again, that doesn't excuse me for being rude. Sorry. You just sounded so high-handed :)

People, when you read someone's post, please, READ IT THOROUGHLY.

To quote the last two postings, for example:

Cparsley: How can most of these people, who haven't ever even seen the game, vote on whether it should be gone forever?

which is intuitively answered in the original header with:

The parentheses indicate the problem with the game, so you can decide to vote to keep or ban it temporarily, or ban it permanently.

you'll notice, CP, that the other players all voted along the lines of banning a certain TYPE of game, not specific games that they may have had more or less points on.

From Cicca's latest quote:

What will happen if in the next MAME realeases[sic] will be included other games that could be considered "broken", or "x players", or "improper control advantage", or "too easy", or "does not playback" !?!

Is this really a "Final Vote" !?!? Will we vote again and again every beta, or every final version !?!

and again, the answer, in the header:

With the direct collaboration of gameboy, skito, Dave, and myself, we now present the FINAL list to you of QUESTIONABLE GAMES for this and all prior beta cycles. Every new beta cycle the games on this list will be re-examined and re-evaluated.

To continue the statement, there have already been another 3 games suggested (yes, including depth charge) which will be in the next vote depending on the success of this one. But if we can't get through this vote without people interfering with something that was already discussed, then Cicca, you're right. This board IS just a bunch of hot air, and nobody wants to make a change. It's getting to the point here that nobody wants to take any initiative, because everything gets so weighed down in bureaucracy.

Now please people, let's just finish the vote, and then we can discuss extraneous measures afterwards.

-- Q.T.Quazar (qan@home.com), September 20, 1999.

To Chris Parsley:

Your argument that the fact that there aren't 200 uploads with perfect scores means that it is not that easy does not hold. I had perfect scores myself on several games, uploaded them to MARP, later changed my mind and deleted them again. A LOT of MARPers don't care about the free 100 point games. Look at BBH for example. Do you really think someone with more than 170 first places can't get a perfect score on ANY of those games? Because you'll notice that his name is missing when you look at the lists of people who submitted scores for those games. And the same goes for a lot of other players. The reason there aren't 200 perfect score uploads per easy game is because a lot of MARPers do not want the free points...

Ben Jos.

-- Ben Jos Walbeehm (walbeehm@walbeehm.com), September 20, 1999.

To Chris Parsley: Your argument that the fact that there aren't 200 uploads with perfect scores means that it is not that easy does not hold. I had perfect scores myself on several games, uploaded them to MARP, later changed my mind and deleted them again. A LOT of MARPers don't care about the free 100 point games. Look at BBH for example. Do you really think someone with more than 170 first places can't get a perfect score on ANY of those games? Because you'll notice that his name is missing when you look at the lists of people who submitted scores for those games. And the same goes for a lot of other players. The reason there aren't 200 perfect score uploads per easy game is because a lot of MARPers do not want the free points...

While that may be your choice in games like commotion, that fails for 2 reasons. One) Games like Super Casino and Fax(trivia) aren't an easy max, unlike QT has posted... Two) It is your choice whether to take the points or not. If you wish to take the high road and not indulge, so be it. But, who are you to deem that nobody can play and record any game that MAME emulates, as that is what MARP was created for. (You know, the person who's site this is dream) Yes, Chris. I got your email at wwemu, and I am working on an entire MARP section under MAME... CP

-- Chris Parsley (cparsley1@hotmail.com), September 20, 1999.

Broken or No Playback: Yes

Too Easy, Two Player, ICA: can these just be banned from leaderboard points but still allow uploads? This way the leaderboard doesn't completely dominate MARP. (sorry if this was already discussed in a thread somewhere)

-- Sad (sadglum@yahoo.com), September 20, 1999.

Not ready to vote yet (still playing the bowling games to determine if they are easy or not.)

However I wanted to address the issue of banning or not banning having NOTHING to do with disallowing uploads. Anyone will still be able to upload banned games all you like, but the banned games simply will not add leaderboard points.

-- Chad (churritz@cts.com), September 20, 1999.

Also, games are not banned forever, if the games get fixed (i.e. playback, get unbroken, or a new scoring method is introduced to make games not easy to get the highest new method score) then the future recordings would not be banned because there would be no reason to ban the game if it playsback, is not broken, or scores are less easy to achieve.

(broken) all yes to ban.

(improper control adv.) ideally i would like to ban these games' recordings until better scoring method can be devised (time to get 300 or coolest turkey pictures displayed :) Basically these games lie between easy and spending a few hours learning your strokes. However these games are unique enough that there are no other games like them and they are fun in they're respective genre that they proly shouldn't be banned. The only games i vote yes to ban here are bowler-fl and bowler-rg because i can't get the ball to roll at all with a mouse and joystick or keyboard commands.

(does not playback) all yes to ban.

(too easy) ban all except sucasino (the only one that requires some skill to get the max)

(two player) ban all, lazercmd is a two player game not too easy i think.

-- Chad (churritz@cts.com), September 20, 1999.

i do want to ban lazer command because it is too easy (i must have had some crap in the clipboard up there.)

But i don't want to ban fax in the (too easy category), that requires skill to at least remember the trivia.

-- Chad (churritz@cts.com), September 20, 1999.

Your apologize are welcome, QT.

Now we all take a deep breath, calm down, and get back on playing MAME games, ok...!?!

But....look at your email, QT....

Cicca

-- Cicca (cicca@writeme.com), September 21, 1999.

My views:

Temporary ban on all broken games from the leaderboard, until fixed. Games that are too easy to max out: remove leaderboard scores. Games with improper control advantage: remove leaderboard scores.

There's no reason I can see to stop uploads for these games; just don't give them points. I'm set to lose a few hundred myself by this, but I'd rather have my points from genuine hard work, instead of the repetition involved in the bowling games for example. In fact I might well zero my own later.

Crash.

-- Crash (crash@tcp.co.uk), September 21, 1999.

one other thing, "deleted" should be banned as well - they wanted the game outta there, and therefore should always be worth zero points. As a matter of fact, I wonder if zwaxy can be able to delete the games from "deleted" like every day or something...

-- Gameboy9 (goldengameboy@yahoo.com), September 21, 1999.

Now we are going even worse, to still allowing them to be submitted??? I thought we were doing this to save MARP resources, still allowing them to be uploaded won't save on resources, but cause Chris more headaches...

-- Chris Parsley (cparsley1@hotmail.com), September 21, 1999.

The key here is that uploading to a game that will quickly get it's points removed will be the limiting factor. Also, with a boolean to tell if a game is banned or not, he can disalow that upload from being in any memory intesive scoring/sorting operations.

So uploading is a trivial thing that we should allow even for banned games, just in case games become un-broken or playbackable at a new version.

-- Chad (churritz@cts.com), September 21, 1999.

Chad, you really don't know PERL scripts, do you? It would take even more resources to exempt certain games from the current list, unless you totally removed them from the system. But, is that what some people have always wanted? MARP is a place for all games, not just the ones some people don't like. So, live with it.

-- Chris Parsley (cparsley1@hotmail.com), September 21, 1999.

You really don't know that there are actually a lot of languages that provide web interfaces, and python is the one MARP uses. This is not attempting to ban games that i or anyone else specifically doesn't like. We are trying to clean up the site dissuading people from uploading inp files that will NEVER be downloaded. The vote is to get everyones input.

If you are upset about losing points, just think of all the ego prizes you'll lose, because those prizes are the only things you're going to miss about banning a few games that many people don't want to see uploaded.

-- Chad (churritz@cts.com), September 21, 1999.

Here's my slant on this matter...

As for the "easy" games, i.e. comotion, dominos, lazer command, etc.,leave them in. The 100 points are available to everyone that wants to "come and get it". It will make our newcomers a bit more informed on MARP as they will have to hunt down the "easy" ones just like the rest of us did at one time or another.

Now for the broken games, I am only concerned with games whose broken condition allows players virtually unlimited points. This includes fitter and also would include mach3 (of which I submitted a score...and a ridiculous one at that...to point out the absurdity of letting leaderboard points being awarded for this one...and btw, I don't mind if all scores, including mine, are wiped out for this one). My gosh, I could go back and record mtrap from the days before they resolved the collision detection issue and rack up something monstrous for this, too! Obviously a no-brainer here for the broken/ unlimited points games of which there are, fortunately, very few of as far as I know. The other broken games are not a real issue either. Each one has an extremely low score (dare I say the word "lame"? :p) posted. Meaning that once the game gets its fix, then the real players of these games will come forward and wipe the rest of us mortals back where we came from! In other words, these types of broken games are essentially "self-correcting".

For the "improper control advantage" games, which means the bowling games that are mentioned and schuuz, leave 'em in. I really don't understand the "improper control advantage" here as all I used was a mouse and a keyboard for these games and I figure that virtually everyone on the planet, with very few exceptions, has access to those. So keep these.

In the "doesn't playback" category, I vote to wipe any and all scores involving a game that can't be witnessed. Yep, this will cost me, but with the discussion lately on the subject I figure this is only fair. If someone does find a MAME version that supports a game with no playback support otherwise, that version should be noted along with the game name when viewing high scores for said game. Most famous example of this would be the vic-dual games that seem to only work with m33b4.

Fax...hmmmm. I really have a problem with this one. Yes, it's easy to memorize all of the questions that are in this one because there are simply not that many to memorize! But the issue here is that your score is also timer-based. I would really like to know how the top 3 scores are all mysteriously the same...I've wondered this ever since I lost my top spot on these fax games. All top games require that you have the correct answer at the VERY INSTANT the question comes up...sorry, but if you were to play this game, you would find it extremely unlikely for this to occur for all 32 questions(or whatever it is). Someone enlighten me as to how this can be...my vote, put this one in the "wipe out" chamber along with the "broken/ unlimited points" games.

OK, so I've written another small novel...thank you for your attention.

JoustGod

-- JoustGod (pinballwiz1@msn.com), September 21, 1999.

"won't playback in any version" No leaderboard points until fixed.

"broken/unplayable" No leaderboard points until fixed.

I'm going to buck the trend and suggest this calmly.

"Easy", "Control Advantage", "Two Player", etc. :

If the game has more than 10 people tied for first place, no one gets leaderboard points for it. I think this check can be added to the scripts simply and cheaply. If the number needs to be bigger than 10 fine, make it 20 or 30. The idea is to make it high enough so the game only goes if nearly anybody can do it well enough for first.

If you really only want a yes/no vote on the list, then I'm voting to ban all of them.

Aqua

-- Aquatarkus (aquatarkus@digicron.com), September 23, 1999.

Here is my votes for banned games.

alexkidd (broken) banned

battlan2 (broken) banned battlan3 (broken) banned battlane (broken) banned cabal (broken) banned cabal2 (broken) banned darkplnt (broken) banned fitter (broken) banned bowler-fl advantage) not banned

bowler-rg advantage) not banned

bowlrama-bjadvantage) not banned

bowlrama-bradvantage) not banned

bowlrama-fmadvantage) not banned

capbowl advantage) not banned

capbowl2 advantage) not banned

clbowl advantage) not banned

medlanes advantage) not banned

robotbwl advantage) not banned

shuuz advantage) not banned

shuuz2 advantage) not banned

breakers playback) not banned - screenshot

breakrev playback) not banned - screenshot

carnvckt playback) not banned - screenshot

flipshot playback) not banned - screenshot

headon2 playback) not banned - screenshot

lastbld2 playback) not banned - screenshot

blockade (too easy) not banned

checkmat (too easy) not banned

dominos (too easy) not banned

fax (too easy) not banned

lazercmd (too easy) not banned

lottofun (too easy) not banned

sucasino (too easy) not banned

comotion two players game) banned

gunfight game) banned

warrior game) banned

This is a game that have something wrong.

dday (broken, i think) banned because after some time the player has infinite lives.

-- A.D. SAKURAGI (adeidda@newmail.net), September 30, 1999.

There's a couple of things you're not taking into account. I'm a Marper since July 98. At that time, the LeaderBoard gave you 10,3,1 points for 1rd, 2nd and 3rd places respectively. In those conditions you had to 'find' those games with top scores (such as 300 at bowlings, 15 at lazercmd, etc), played them, finished them and submitted your scores soon, the sooner you could, in order to get one of the places that awarded points. (ONLY for the first 3 people who submited the top score). I spent hours and hours trying to get those 13 strikes in bowlings games just to get 1 point for the 3rd place sometimes. Likewise I could never make a perfect game for the 'robotbwl' for example; so who decides if Robot Bowl is as easy as the Capcom Bowls. I disagree with that or consider me a bad player. In fact, I have used, 'improper control advantage'. I used a keyboard or a mouse, pleasse!!!! Anyway, things are different now and we must accept every upload that gets the top score and I agree with that.

About the Lottofun, it is really easy now, as Dave Kaupp said , just see any inp and bet those numbers. Except for me, who submited first and found out how to solve it. Apart from that, 5000 ptos don't require more than 1 credit, I do know that.

About the fax game, it isn't a "massive tie' since only Phil Lamat and me have submited the top score (85300 ptos). First submit your 85300 ptos for each category, make it a really 'massive tie', then vote to ban them if you want. And also who can say that the fax games are 'too easy' as you said. They weren't for me. I live in Argentina, here we speak Spanish and I don't handle the English perfectly so imagine how I tried to solve all that trivia game in its 4 categories. All you have to do is to memorize the trivia (or take notes as I did if you want), then use the Pause key to read the question (as you sure did too, Joust God) and get the perfect time. I spent the whole day doing so. Perhaps it is an easy game but it is REALLY awkward and it's not so easy to get it perfect!, even Joust God couldn't and he submited about 80000 and all here we know that JG is a really tough guy.

So in my opinion, leave your 'too easy' games alone (except the '2 players game'); anyone who decides to take these points, take them, even blockade may be a 'non so easy' game if a 4 years old boy decide to become a Marper.

My Depth Charge recording include a pcx screenshot, Cicca, I'm afraid there is no other way to confirm my score except this one.Anyway I will vote to ban all those games who doesn't playback.

So, here are my votes:

"won't playback in any version" No leaderboard points until fixed.If we can find a version/s in which it can be played and played back, we should allow to use ONLY that/those versions. E.g.: Fitter definitively works and playback using Mame 35 beta 6 for DOS. Head on 2 : mame 33 beta 4 for DOS. "broken/unplayable" No leaderboard points until fixed. "Easy", "Control Advantage", etc. : No Banned "Two Player" : Banned

German Krol.

-- German Krol (germanc@netverk.com.ar), October 26, 1999.

I changed idea, i think that games that doesn't playback (breakers, breakrev, carnvckt, flipshot, headon2, lastbld2) must be banned. After all the most important think is not the leaderboard but create the largest archive of record. P.s. About dday what you say (after a certain number of life won you become immortal)? I think there is somethink wrong.

-- A.D.SAKURAGI (adeidda@newmail.net), October 30, 1999.

You all make me sick just thinkning about banning games would be proposterous games make our country and keep our children diminutive and away they encourage my children not to take drugs and all my fllow mothers agree I would rather my children playing games than out in an alley smoking pot. Games are also ewducational and help our children learn. Though I am for the negative for this review I still believe rude, violent, innapropriate games should be banned and that long playing times of games banned too. But our children need fun (remember back in the sixties how we would love going to the arcade to play pong and now Bill gates has come to the console world I can really trust for quality so all my fellow moms agree Games should not be banned! also A special thanks to the republic of Checerslovakia for my help. I love you guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-- Nicholas james dennis (nicholasjamesdennis@hotmail.com), March 25, 2002.