OT: Recent threads

greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread

Recent posts have snowballed into open conflict... nothing new for this forum. To save myself responded on three separate threads, I'm conserving my efforts. After all, a Sunday afternoon has far better uses than this.

Since my arrival on this forum, I've held a rather consistent position. In short, the most likely outcome of Y2K will be an economic downturn. Like noted economist Ed Yardeni, I place the risk of economic depression as rather small. [I think Yardeni places the risk at 5%; my assessment is closer to 1%.]

My own preparation recommendations are modest... and mostly financial in nature. Get out of debt, increase savings and stay liquid. I sold most of my equity holdings in April. Pretty dull stuff, really.

By "real world" standards, I am a pessimist. Despite my dour outlook, I have been a controversial figure on this forum.

My writing style is not unlike H.L. Mencken's, rather acidic. I know this does not endear me to people. My real failing, however, is my penchant for "lightning rod" issues. The first post on this forum was a reasonable essay about why the lone "prepared" family is basically an hors d'oeuvre for an aggressor force. This was not well accepted and things basically went downhill from there.

I also have challenged the forum's "sacred cows" including Ed Yourdon. I openly questioned the obvious conflict of interest between Yourdon's reporting on Y2K and his profit-making Y2K ventures. Agree or not... I think it's a legitimate question. I also feel popular forum posters like Diane Squire, "Old Git," Stan Faryna, Robert Cook, etc. should not receive a free pass despite their forum popularity.

On a personal note, I have met some forum posters including Flint, Sally Strackbein (sp?) and Stan Faryana. They are delightful people in "real life." This forum is a place for open and honest debate. Frankly, if I don't agree with someone, even St. Yourdon, I'll weigh in. It's about having a certain level of intellectual integrity. Even smart folks have stupid ideas. There is a difference between attacking the idea and attacking the person. Aside from a lapse with Hardliner, I've generally focused my essays on ideas rather than personalities. And I expect the participants in the forum to be grown up enough to handle having their ideas questioned with having their tender feelings hurt.

As Flint has observed, I do hold the forum bullies in contempt. And I can't say that I think much of the people who are so engrossed in Y2K preparation they have no ability to discuss Y2K itself objectively. [You haven't seen my byline on the preps forum yet.] Oh, and we can't forget those folks who come to this forum with a grudge against the sitting president, the federal government, the Federal Reserve, the Gold Standard, Liberals, the Bilderbergs, global conspiracies, etc.

While I hold some in low regard, I also have a great deal of respect for others. This respect is not based on education, professional background or spelling. It's based on how they engage in public discourse. For example, I disagree with Steve Heller. We've crossed pens, but he conducted himself as a gentlemen. In doing so, he earned my respect.

On a related subject, I recently questioned Stan Faryna's fascination with Y2K preparation. Personally, I'm a fan of "survival" fiction and own a tired copy of Lucifer's Hammer. I consider it a great afternoon novel. Like many men, I have far more tools than I can use in a single weekend... and all the essentials for camping, hunting, fishing, backpacking, diving and a half dozen other pursuits.

I love gear.

As an intellectual exercise, Y2K preparation is fascinating. I just wish a few folks would admit it. I remember the post from the guy who stored 100,000 matches or something. Now there's an honest man... admitting he was swept away by the whole preparation rush.

But there's a difference between the exercise and the reality. I'm a huge fan of hunting stories, but I know the difference between a cool afternoon with Capstick and freezing my ass off at 8,000 in a spike camp.

Between my experience in the military, on the ranch and in the woods, I have a healthy respect for exactly how deep the kimchee could be if Y2K was a total meltdown. It's one of the reason I'm making sure my small jurisdiction is Y2K ready. [We'll have water flowing, folks, and water is priority one ahead of even electricity.] Even so, I'm not sure anyone can truly prepare for a post-Apocalyptic world.

I've tried to bring an honest perspective to the Y2K debate (and humor from time to time). You'd get the same over beers at the local tavern. Those few who have met me will attest to my good hospitality and country manners. In the spirit of cooperation, I'll try to reduce my high-handed rhetoric (unless I'm kicking Andy's backside for my own amusement.) In return, hell, I know better than to ask for anything. (laughter)


-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), September 12, 1999


(Stan, he is off his medication again. I thought he was going to come back to us as "Red"???)

We are here for you, Red. You can do it, Red. Just say No to that inner demon we all know as Mr. Decker, and come out to us, Red. We love you, Red!!!

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), September 12, 1999.

My personal dream is for King of Spain to work as the receptionist at the National Organization for Women (NOW).


-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), September 12, 1999.

Oh, and we can't forget those folks who come to this forum with a grudge against the sitting president, the federal government, the Federal Reserve, the Gold Standard, Liberals, the Bilderbergs, global conspiracies, etc.

Why dO YoU NoT MEntiOn tHE COmIng ReptiLE ALieN INvasIOn????? Why NO mEntiOn oF ThosE Of Us WhO HaVe A GruDgE agIAnsT FOoLisH InfidELs??????? HYenA!!!!!

-- Dieter (questions@toask.com), September 12, 1999.

Why dO YoU NoT MEntiOn tHE COmIng ReptiLE ALieN INvasIOn?????

Err, I think he covered Andy with some of the other topics...

-- Hoffmeister (hoff_meister@my-deja.com), September 12, 1999.

Maybe Dieter is referring to 'a'?

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), September 12, 1999.

Mr. Decker,

With all due respect, perhaps it's the ego that people object to.


-- H.L. Mencken (cynical@me.net), September 12, 1999.

Mr. Decker:

Forgiveness may be a lost virture in today's society. I do not often post replies, but having lurked here for so long feel it time to speak out. Y2K is an issue bigger than most of us can comprehend. Therefore, we question and debate every issue that comes down the pike from the powers that be. So be it! The truth lurkes here somewhere. Whether we will know/understand truth when it hits us between the eyes is another question.

I appreciate all the regulars who post here, which very much includes you, Mr. Decker. That there is a divergence of opinion expressed only increases my search for truth. Today, my family is prepared and will continue to prepare because of this forum. Thank you ALL very much.

As for the virture of forgiviness, I think we should each consider the after-effects year 2000 brings our way. Something tells me we will still pass through together. Open conflict among the troops is an invitation to lose the war.

-- Tommy Rogers (Been There@Just a thought.com), September 12, 1999.

Decker, it appears you are having a difficult time letting go of this GREAT forum. You act like a POOR LOSER wanting to get even. No can do Decker, your all washed up.


-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), September 12, 1999.

Hoffmeister, did I MISS your comments regarding Congressman Horn's Report Card on the FAA????

Anxiously awaiting some kind of response!!


-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), September 12, 1999.

> Between my experience in the military, on the ranch and in the woods, I have a healthy respect for exactly how deep the kimchee could be if Y2K was a total meltdown. It's one of the reason I'm making sure my small jurisdiction is Y2K ready. [We'll have water flowing, folks, and water is priority one ahead of even electricity.] Even so, I'm not sure anyone can truly prepare for a post-Apocalyptic world. >

At least you admit that you're hedging your bets a bit. I've lurked on this forum since about Jan, although I posted maybe twice. I've also read the ongoing pi**ing contest between 'doomers' and 'pollys'. I notice that taking the questioning of sacred cows turns into a personal conflict, often generating multiple threads which are devoted solely to attacking a poster. This distracts greatly from the purpose of this forum, which I understood 'way back' was to help people prepare for whatever level of hardship the Y2K bug might bring. It is truly up to each individual and their local community to decide what level things might be at, but that really should stay off the forum, excepting news items that relate to Y2K. Some will state that there is an archive, but newcomers to this forum who are looking for answers aren't helped by articles posted from the Sightings webpage about Trilateralists and Bilderbergers. BTW, your posts have generally been thought provoking, although the condescending tone in some of the past posts, while now appearing to be based in disdain for some of the zealots here, prevented me from saying so previously. Personally, I am naturally paranoid, and believe that the potential exists for the Y2K bug to create terrible economic conditions ( this is in conjunction, I might add, with what I believe to be a stock market bubble overdue for a major correction ), therefore I am preparing for the worst case which I feverently hope I can laugh off next year. You are correct. Water should be the first priority after shelter. I've tried to bring an honest perspective to the Y2K debate (and humor from time to time). You'd get the same over beers at the local tavern. Those few who have met me will attest to my good hospitality and country manners. In the spirit of cooperation, I'll try to reduce my high-handed rhetoric (unless I'm kicking Andy's backside for my own amusement.) In return, hell, I know better than to ask for anything. (laughter)

-- The_Grinch (montagguy@aol.com), September 12, 1999.

I left the last paragraph of Mr. Decker's post in mine. Sorry for the confusion.

-- The_Grinch ( a correction) (montagguy@aol.com), September 12, 1999.

Sorry, Ray. Just what did the good Congressman have to say?

-- Hoffmeister (hoff_meister@my-deja.com), September 12, 1999.

Hoff, here is a link to the report, check page 5 (High Impact Programs):

Report Card, August 1999


-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), September 12, 1999.

Ray, I'm sure you must have a point here. Why not just spit it out?

-- Hoffmeister (hoff_meister@my-deja.com), September 12, 1999.

Seems an appropriate historical response, at this juncture.



Lewis Carroll
(from Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There, 1872)


`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"

He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought --
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.

And, as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.

"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.

`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), September 12, 1999.


Is that asshole, the artiste formerly known as double-decker [or is it madame Red?], still here???

I thought said asshole said he wouldn't be looking in any more.

BTW how's the foot ddecker, has it healed yet :)

A young female forumite a ways back, Lisa, questioned dDeckers anti- female sentiments, took him to task actually, and questioned his masculinity and his years and years cooped up in close proximity with other, uh, men... She questioned basically the psychological background to his catty, condescending, diatribes on this forum, his disdain for us all - and as Stan Faryna so recently eloquently pointed out, his loathing for the American public...

To continue with the story, our hero ddescker turned on her and a vicious catfight (as is his wont) ensued... it was so embarrassing to watch that Hardliner felt compelled to intervene to defend Lisa from ddeckers claw marks...

Well Lisa, as we all knew, you were dead-on right about Miss Decker [laughter]

And here's the rationale, the proof, if you will, read on [laughter]

Consider these very revealing quotes from ddecker's rather sad misogynistic and mixed-up hero, H. L. Mencken...

"Bachelors know more about women than married men do. If they didn't, they'd be married too." - H. L. Mencken.

"On one issue at least, men and women agree; they both distrust women." - H. L. Mencken

"Bachelors have consciences, married men have wives." - H. L. Mencken.

"Love is the delusion that one woman differs from another."

-- Henry Louis Mencken

"Conscience is the inner voice that warns us that someone might be looking." - HLM

"Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free than Christianity has made them good."

-- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)

"The basic fact about human existence is not that it is a tragedy, but that it is a bore. It is not so much a war as an endless standing in line."

-- Mencken, H[enry] L[ouis] (1880-1956)

And the piece de resistance :)

"... After all, all he did was string together a lot of old, well- known quotations." -- H. L. Mencken, on Shakespeare

So there we have it.

ddecker you are a consumate boor, a misogynist and a condescending prig.

[snip--over top--andy]

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), September 12, 1999.

(As an aside to his cohorts)

Watch this, it is fricken funny as sh!t, Im going to post to the swamp pit. Watch.

"Nicely written blah blah blah (laughter) blah blah blah. Except for KOS and Andy, who is nicely written blah blah blah blah blah. Of course history tells us blah blah blah...."

OK, now watch what happens when I post this one, those drones cannot stop themselves from rising to the bait. (laughter) I cannot tell you what a rush this power gives me.

-- Not Decker (not@decker.nope), September 12, 1999.

"The older I grow the more I distrust the familiar doctrine that age brings wisdom." H.L. Mencken

-- quoter (quoter@quoterr.com), September 12, 1999.

So that makes ddecker an octogenerian...

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), September 12, 1999.

Regarding gutter language in a post - Not my cup of tea, but I know some people look upon it as colorful. No problem.

To direct it AT another poster is, IMO, childish, disrespectful to ALL who read the invective(s), & grounds for retribution. Will TPTB take action?

Will TPTB take action?

Thank you in advance.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@pop.shentel.net), September 12, 1999.


Never play cards with a man called Decker.


-- no talking please (breadlines@soupkitchen.gov), September 12, 1999.

Hey Ken - where did you meet Flint? In Koskinens office? You better steer clear of him Ken. He believes in the TWA Flight 800 conspiracy. Thoughtful pessimists aren't supposed to believe in conspiracies, let alone pollies like Flint.

-- a (a@a.a), September 12, 1999.

So Bingo, you are quite happy with ddecker's gutter language disguised as prose are you?

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), September 12, 1999.

A bunch of you know we're prepping. We've invited some of you to join us if you're afraid to stay where you are. Decker and Flint are just as welcome as Stan and Russ and Andy and the King of Spain. Everyone on this forum is a priceless human being. I don't care how y2k ends up -- I hope everyone of us makes it through ok, regardless of personal opinions.

No one has ever accused me of being 'deep' or thoughtful, but that's how I see it. I wish people wouldn't be personally nasty when they disagree.

-- helen (sstaten@fullnet.net), September 12, 1999.

helen: It is OK if we have another girl mudwrestle with us? Let me know if it isn't, otherwise I assume you are OK with a mud la trois.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), September 12, 1999.

1. I've not read a single post from Mr. Decker, in the five+ months he's been here, which I felt to be offensive to the point of my chiming in with an objection to his word usage. Nor Flint for that matter.

2. Since you addressed me directly, Andy, I'll state this - your track record speaks for itself. As does the continued toleration of your boorishness by TPTB.

3. The main reason I haven't recommended this forum to ANYONE in many, many months is that I abhor the trashy posts which you & a few others inflict upon the readers on a regular basis.

4. I don't expect contrition Andy. You obviously revel in the apparent fact you have carte blanche to write what you swill.

5. Furthermore, I question the courage of anyone who anonymously takes another's name in vain repeatedly, as you do with Flint & Mr. Decker. Apologies if you've actually faced them & stated your opinions.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@pop.shentel.net), September 12, 1999.

King of Spain -- I think ALL of us girls should wrestle you at the same time and put it live on the web. What do YOU think?

-- helen (sstaten@fullnet.net), September 12, 1999.

Mr. Decker,

I have always appreciated your point of view, even if you are known as "Double Decker." I also appreciate the views of Flint, and Hoffmeister (even if I have been "fighting" with them all day), and I'm even trying to work things out with Andy Ray. I think that you are all very fine, well meaning gentlemen. The "polly" view does add much to this forum.

I'm sorry that I haven't made some of the "meetings" (I hear from ps that NYC was a blast). I don't have a problem with any of you guys.

Just do me one favor. Open your eyes. <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), September 12, 1999.

Is this Decker's hero?

[Letter to Upton Sinclair, 14 Oct (17)]

So long as there are men in the world, 99 percent of them will be idiots...

[Letter to Harry Rickel, 12 Sep (20)]

I cross the 40-year mark with severe hay-fever, but otherwise in prime condition. I have no less than three new girls lined up to be probed during the next few weeks... For all of which let credit go to God.

[Quoted in Edward A. Martin's H.L. Mencken and the Debunkers]

But the fact remains that the Southern whites have to deal with the actual Negroes before them, and not with a theoretical race of African kings. These actual Negroes show actual defects that are very real and very serious.

[Letter, 27 Mar 21]

Politeness is the worst curse of the world.

[A Mencken Chrestomathy]

Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."


I know of no existing nation that deserves to live, and I know of very few individuals.

-- kilroy (was@not.here), September 12, 1999.


I could give a shit about proven disinformation shills like flint and ddecker, if you don't like the kitchen you know what you can do pal, BTW how's the Ivory Tower doing up north these days?

Sincere folks get the utmost respect from me, or hadn't you noticed???

Examine their record - it stinks. I have nothing to be ashamed about, and as regards my use of the Queens English, if it was good enough for Shakespeare it should be good enough for this forum.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), September 12, 1999.

Bingo1, welcome to the Wide World of Internet Discussion Forums. I will agree that this one seems to be one of the most volitle, at the same time its one of the last remaining ones devoted solely (supposedly) to Y2K issues. With time getting preciously short, it would be surprising if a lot of fuses were not getting short.

Mr. Decker:

Without getting too immersed into the deep yogurt that seems to swill around you, your posts, and the posts that you get in reply: After reading through a lot of what Stan Faryna had to say yesterday, I do think you ought to not gloss over a lot of what appeared to be the main thrust of his commentary. Namely, that "Mr. Decker" is very much a fictional character, apparently with a lot of fictional attributes (if I am reading his writings correctly), with the "true" personna that actually types the posts being of a different sort, someone that he refers to as "Red". I specifically would like to ask you to address the following two questions:

1) As I commented only yesterday on one of the threads, you often show disdain for people who use annonymous names under which they post. Could you please explain how "Red" and "Mr. Decker" relate to each other?

2) If indeed "Mr. Decker" is a fictional character that has been invented for whatever reason, is much of the "background" for this character also fictional? Such as growing up on a ranch, military service, etc.? This is not idle curiosity -- you often give advice based on this experience, and I think that it is relevant to ask if this "experience" is genuine.

Thank you.

-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), September 12, 1999.

Red is the cross-dressing part of the Mister Decker persona - his rum, sodomy and the lash days are no doubt true, and as for his gowing up on a farm... well, I'd rather not go into THAT...

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), September 12, 1999.

Andy: ROTFLMAO!!! Gawd! Can't you just see him wearing his long red-haired wig, sloppin' the hogs out on the farm!! (Don't ask what with.)

helen: Sounds like Heaven on Earth......

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), September 12, 1999.

Repoop of an earilier thread;

Stihl 026. Accept no substitutes.


-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), September 08, 1999.

It's this kind of misplaced arrogance that gives the talking curd away!!

Perhaps you've not heard of Johnsrud Mr. DeckerRed, One of the finest and unsurpassed engineering marvels in the wood!! It really gripes me , that folks like you are about the only ones that can afford them.

No substitutes indeed! GAG, (geta a grip) meathead.

-- Michael (mikeymac@uswest.net), September 12, 1999.

Decker hasn't decided if he grew up on a farm or a ranch. He once claimed it was a farming ranch (or something like that). Rather a 'dimestore cowboy' answer, if you ask me. I've NEVER known a rancher who would refer to himself occasionally as a farmer. Them's fightin' words.

Bingo, you have obviously missed several of Mr. Pecker's posts. I've found him to be extremely offensive on several of his 'jewels of wisdom' contributions. He's a worm wrapped in silk. He's covert as hell and anyone who would find him otherwise is either naive or setting him up (works for me......maybe we could get him to change a lightbulb for us in a very dark, back room as it's difficult to locate one in an alley).


-- Will continue (farming@home.com), September 12, 1999.

Uhhh.... Ranch dressing on a farm fresh salad maybe, huh?

-- Michael (mikeymac@uswest.net), September 12, 1999.


-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), September 13, 1999.

YES! I forgot the ! in BINGO!

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), September 13, 1999.

Michael - that would be a fruit salad I presume :)

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), September 13, 1999.

Thank you for your kind consideration of my words, Andy. I try so hard to give you the benefit of the doubt, for in our brief e-mail exchange several months ago you proved both lucid & mannerly. I know you are capable, just not willing to "police" yourself. Footloose & fancy free, eh! Perhaps one day you'll awaken & realize the havoc you've wrought.

Perhaps no Sysop has read this thread in the past 12 hours, hence the lack of response.

Hey Unc! Batten down those hatches, buddy!

-- Bingo1 (howe9@pop.shentel.net), September 13, 1999.


Chuck edited my post - take a look. I can't make myself any more plain, IMHO ddecker has swanned into this forum and wrought far more damage than I allegedly have. This is realtime, this is the internet, this is a relatively well-mannered forum - have you ever spent any time over on csy2k? I rest my case. As for Flint, again, anyone new to this forum would read the reams of verbose semi-intellectual/semi- technical maunderings of his and conclude that he knew what he was talking about, and that his constant lullabyes could be believed... Whilst in his personal situation he is armed to the teeth, could power the QE2 across the Atlantic with his stockpile of wood, and probably feed and water the passengers too. Ditto our fictional ddecker. Now who is being disingenuous?

Not me. I have remained steadfast in my predictions from day one. As we get nearer to rollover it becomes more and more apparent that we have all failed as a world society to tackle this problem. I have no time nor patience for interlopers of the dd/flint persuasion, or usually for trolls or those who post with ridiculous or obviously offensive handles. All others who take part sincerely in the forum I treat with good humour and kid gloves (usually :) )

I'm sorry if a little vulgarity offends you - such is life. Your friends, those that you have dissuaded from coming to this forum because of ruffians like myself must have such delicate sensibilities that anything more than a five or so will be their downfall in any case.

I think to date I have over 3,000 posts, the vast majority of which even you would consider on-topic (if there is such a thing with regard to y2k) - and have helped many people in the right direction I hope financially. I've also opened a lot of previously closed minds - my email id is real and I have the private correspondence to attest to that.

Contrast this with ddecker - he has made a few useful "country- living"-type posts, but that is about it. All, repeat all, the rest IMHO have been calculated to cause dissent amomngst us forumites. He was caught blatantly doing this in the early days, posting about his experiences here on the Paul Davis forum, amongst others, which is why he is called double, or duplicitous, or untrustworthy - call it what you will - decker. Go back in the archives, read all posts initiated by dd and you will see what I mean. Ask Lisa about her experiences with the guy, big dog, stan, hardliner, robert, diane... the list goes on.

Time's running out - no more to waste on dd.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), September 13, 1999.

Gawd, Andy, that was great! I'll bet with your accent, you probably score a lot. Damn!!

And double-Decker STILL has not bellied up to the bar to give us a sensible explanation of why his "country living" posts should be believed, if the fool can't tell a ranch from a farm. Gawd!

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), September 13, 1999.

King, I wonder about Decker's "country retreat" in WV. You think it's a trailer in the woods? Then there's the "ancestral home" in Montana.

-- Martha (Stewart@K.Mart), September 13, 1999.

I heard it was a trailer down by the river :)

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), September 13, 1999.

Ah, I take the night off and see the forum bullies have gathered.

To answer Jack's question, my real name is Decker. Ken Decker. There are folks from this forum who can attest that I really exist. My family nickname is Red.

If any of you has the sand to meet me in person, I can produce all the proof necessary of every claim made on this forum. In short, I'll show you my DD 214 from the U.S. military (honorable discharge), my birth certificate (Montana), deeds on property owned (Montana and West Virginia), copies of my undergraduate and graduate degrees, a curriculum vitae, etc. Oh, and I can also show you that I sit on the board of directors of two family-owned corporations in the timber industry. As an aside, my profesional experience as a logger helped form my opinion of the Stihl chain saw.

As far as personal information like marital status, children; that has nothing to do with my ability to comment on Y2K and is none of your business.

In short, folks, I am exactly who I have claimed to be and have (on many occasions) invited a real world face-to-face for the doubting Thomases. Not surprisingly, there have been few takers (although Ray, do tell, were you the skinny, angry, dark-haired fellow at the Virginia Y2K gathering? The one who avoided me?)

Now, as for Andy, Ray, Spain, Will Continue, etc... your comments clearly reveal your character. Forum regulars quickly realize your collective contribution to this forum consists of invective, half- baked conspiracy theories and vivid demonstrations of poor manners. Rather than offer meaningful counter-arguments, you simply attack anyone who does not buy your "party line." When you want to debate the issues, folks, you know where to find me. In the mean time, at least try to make the insults humorous.

Oh, and for the reading-challenged Andy... I never said H.L. Mencken was a personal hero. Instead, we have a similar writing style... acidic. While I realize your are Stan Faryna's version of a genius, at least try to read carefully before you go off, guns blazing. By the way, you may want to work on the homophobia, Andy.


-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), September 13, 1999.

While I don't see this thread as a reasoned answer to the substance of arguments on the other threads, I have always taken your posting of personal data at face value. And I don't agree with the crude baiting of you that goes on far too often, though I'll note that Andy has been baited by pollies ceaselessly as well (and usually responds with good humor to it). If I were the moderator (I'm not, as I often point out), I would delete those entries.

I still believe you misread the demographics, tenor and outlook (about the future to come) of this forum and that Stan has a valid concern that you extol American culture in the abstract but despise it in the particular. I can't speak to the notion as to whether you are different in person than on the Net because we haven't met.

I know Stan, in specific, has the healthiest possible forebodings about any "kimchee" Y2K impact, as does every single person I have met or corresponded with on this forum (and that's many).

I don't take Y2KPro as representative of pollies and I still fail to see why you refuse to accept this obvious fact on the side of the "doomers". That is, 95% of the posters here, whatever their predictive persuasion, dread a "kimchee" result.

There is a big difference between discussing scenarios, planning possible worst-case preps and "looking forward" to those worst-case scenarios. Preparing for water emergencies, as you have, doesn't mean you are looking forward to it OR even predicting it.

I agree with Hardliner about your "style." It comes across as incredibly condescending: if you're NOT actually feeling that way, why provoke needlessly? The issues are provocative enough.

I wasn't poking at you on the other thread, though I stand by my convictions on the subject in question, barring rebuttal. You ARE dour, as you say, or near-doomer, by contrast with 99% of the American population and far more pessimistic than Flint or Hoffmeister. That's not an attempt to recruit you to some cause (contra Flint, I'm not leading one). It's just descriptive.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), September 13, 1999.

Well, Decker, you see that is a big difference between you and most people here -- we don't claim to be experts in anything relevant to Y2K, we just try to figure out who to believe about what. Even Gary North, whom you have often attacked on a personal level, does not claim to be a technical expert. It is the people who DO make such claims -- such as you, Flint, Paul Davis -- that get close scrutiny out of necessity.

Rather than just put out terse comments like "Get this saw, accept no substitutes", you might find that your advice might actually get taken -- even appreciated -- if you back it up with something in the way of reasons. And, for most people, some idea of cost tradeoffs would help.

Everything you write comes across as inflammatory, whether or not you actually mean it to be, at least to the vast majority of people here. If you work at it, I'm sure that you can change this. The response on the part of people to this change will be quite positive. And I'm sure that this is what Stan Faryana was trying to say.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), September 13, 1999.

Deedah bastard! i was gonna say that.

-- number six (ramallama@farfarfar.com), September 13, 1999.

Russ (BD),

There were few substantive arguments against my point on the other threads. To wit, if modern America is so terrible, simply name a better place and/or time. While I criticize the ideas of some forum posters, this criticism should not be construed as a critique of the American people. I do not consider this forum representative of the wider population. Based on my reading of this forum, conservative middle class, white, computer-owning males seem abundant... not exactly the Rainbow Coalition.

The tenor and outlook of the forum are quite clear. As one of the lead voice in the choir, Russ, I hear your tune particular quite well. Your response to my first post on this forum was to call me a "moron." For the next few months you gave me the generous choice between dense and deceitful. Oh, I have not forgotten your shrill outcry when you misread my post on the Debunker forum. While you are a far better wordsmith than Andy, Ray, Spain or Will Continue... the message is no different. By your own standards, you'd have to delete a fair amount of your own writing.

I understand Richard defended me (in principle) at the first Y2K meeting. (Thanks, Richard.) Unfortunately, you were not able to attend the next gathering. I would have enjoyed the opportunity to take your measure in person.

I know where you stand, Russ. I've read your justification of Yourdon's departure and your "the code is broken" and "we started too late" essays. I've watched your dialogue with "Hoff" and others.

Sorry, Russ, but as long as you stand by your months of name calling, you're just a forum bully in my eyes. And you already know how I feel about bullies.

I'll be civil with everyone, even you; but forgive me if I choose not to turn my back on you.


I have never claimed to be an expert in anything but economics. I question North because he has an agenda (CR) and he's been wrong for 20 years. You've never bothered to discuss economics... you seem to busy with mud wrestling and profanity to discuss the real Y2K issues. My saw comment was made in a hurry.... I didn't have time to write a book, but if the person took my advice, he or she bought a damn fine chainsaw. I have offered lengthy opinions on tools, guns, etc. It's not like the length makes any difference to you, Andy, Ray, Will Continue, etc. Let's try this... in a few weeks I'll post a useful article on self sufficiency. Care to wager one of the forum bullies will comment on WHO wrote the article rather than WHAT the article says?


-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), September 13, 1999.

Decker, you are afflicted with the same flaw that I have. You are very plain spoken, or you speak without considering the mindset of the majority, or you like to play the devil's advocate, you just like to present a different point of view. I too have a penchant for lightning rod issues. Check out the longest post on this forum, about overpopulation, entitled Big Picture.

I can't tell you how many times as I was growing up that my dad said, "It's a good idea to learn early on to know the difference between a sweet lie and the bitter truth." People don't like people who say things bluntly and without consulting Miss Manners first, so that they don't injure a sensitive creature's self-esteem. And for Gawd's sake,,,,don't disagree with the conventional wisdom or you're dead.

I've based my level of preps on much in Yourdon's book, but I don't see a melt down, and I wouldn't have room for storage if I did. However, after once being married to a wealthy CEO, I know first hand how people suck up to people like Yourdon, and other authors, or those who have simply made a pot full of money. It's juvenile and fawning to say the least.

On this forum if you don't lie awake worrying yourself sick about Y2K, or weeping over your sins, or counting toilet paper rolls, or hating Clinton or Liberals or the NWO, you are stupid and ignorant. And often what you post, will either be twisted or interpreted as something entirely different than what you meant. Even my young house sitter noticed that.

Frankly, I haven't read all of your posts, but most show a reasonable level of critical thinking. But of course what do I know, I'm one of those "witch, bitch Commie, Nazi, Liberals."

By the way only in cowboy land would someone worry about being called a farmer, rather than a rancher. My present husband had a cattle ranch for years in CA. Then he had a large farm here where he raised grain. One is certainly not superior to another. My cousin calls our place a farm and all we have is 25 acres of woods and a small garden.

I'm on a new forum where the people can discuss volatile issues with less emotional thinking and more critical thinking and it's really great. That doesn't mean I don't like this forum, but the majority here are conservative, Christian, right wing, Republicans and that makes a difference. The first post I read on this forum, someone said, they weren't fond of nonChristan, liberals, etc. and that was an understatement. I'm sure if you, or I, or anyone else that wants to be less "condescending" and abrupt, less inflamatory, we can do it, especially if we quit using high-handed rhetoric. We could begin by asking every poster if they want to mud wrestle or skinny dip. I don't agree with everything you say either, but that doesn't give me the right to call you names, or to imply your a liar.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), September 13, 1999.

Mr. Decker, thank you for answering my two questions. With only three and a half months until rollover, I hope that everyone will worry less about various personality traits, names, quirks, etc., and more about what is almost at hand. And I am sure that you are well suited to make valuable contributions. Perhaps the Yourdon Preparation Forum would be a good place for your upcoming guide to self-sufficiency?

-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), September 13, 1999.


Thanks. Folks in my home section of Montana are more relaxed about the farm/ranch debate. The folks who run a few head of cattle also grow hay, have huge gardens, raise other stock, etc. The best term is probably "homestead."

I agree with your assessment of the politics of the TB 2000 forum. Aside from Ms. Squire, many forum regulars seem conservative, middle class, white and male. Maybe it was spelling Clinton with a "K" that tipped me off. (laughter) Personally, my leaning are more libertarian. I am sorry you have been treated poorly, but please persevere.


I said I'd not post on the "preps" forum. As usual, I've been true to my word. I'll post here, and you may cross-post, if you feel the post is worth your time.


-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), September 13, 1999.

Decker -- I'm not sure why you responded to my post above as you did, but it doesn't matter especially. You have been either dense or deceitful at times, IMO and, like you, I call a spade a spade. If you'd like to "group me" with Andy, Ray or Will Continue, that's fine too, since I don't consider them "bullies." I simply said some posts should be deleted, IMO.

Like anyone, you are VERY welcome to post on the Prep Forum. I'm not sure what you gain by cluttering up this forum with prep posts, when the moderators have asked that prep threads would be posted TO the prep forum.

I have said before on other occasions that I don't consider anyone on this forum an enemy, including you. That remains true.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), September 13, 1999.

BTW, Decker, I should say that I now think you have been dense, NOT deceitful, as I have read and weighed your posts over the months and I do sincerely apologize about the "deceitful."

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), September 13, 1999.

Vulgarity doesn't offend me, Andy. It's the sheer brazen nature of your personal attacks that offends me. And embarrasses me.

We share a common origin Andy. Same species you & I. Therefore I wish nothing but the best for you. And I wince when you tear into another of our species with seemingly little concern for the effect your words may have on the target & all who read the diatribe.

I tried once before to alert you to my concerns. You responded courteously, however my words didn't seem to get through (probably my inability to communicate my thoughts with clarity).

Carry on. Exorcise your demons as you see fit. I do hope that one day you feel the compulsion to treat others of our ilk with the respect which is inherent in all life. IMO, of course.

I won't bother you again. That's a promise.

Best Wishes,

-- Bingo1 (howe9@pop.shentel.net), September 13, 1999.

Mr. Decker

As I am one of the forum members that has enjoyed attacking your IDEAS and not you, it is nice to see your movement to more solid idealistic ground. You have in the past seemed to be "high" on yourself. While many of your post are interesting, some have been opinions none the less that are open to debate (regarding Y2K and not the bullies). You seem to have confused the issue in the past thinking that one is the other and Y2K has to be dismissed because of certian folks attitudes.

It has been my view all along that what you have suffered agianst more often than not is your own ignorance of the potential effects of Y2K and have used that ignorance as a pulpit to stand on. This is of course muddified thought and it is nice to see you actually come out and state your grievences with the certian "louder" members of the forum rather than issue an attack on Y2K pessimists in general.

There are alot of highly intelligent folk on the forum that would like to make sense of the mess we may see. We have hearts and minds and see the forum as an excellant way to work this out. It has been the times when you attack the forum itself that has raised my ire. Now you wish to return to a "balance" and that is commendible.

I personally would like to see you make some kind of peace with Hardliner, BD, Diane, Stan although some of the other forum member have no chance of meeting minds with you (do you look worried? Na).

You know that spelling and my writing style in general is not up to par with yours but I am just another member of the y2k world that is trying to get a grip on the information. Flint has actually helped me get a balance and that is needed. You on the other hand are never ever going to help my spelling :o)

But for many members of the forum this is a continuing education and I think that you should admit yourself into that school so we can all learn together. Put down the sword of conflict and pick up the light of understanding.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), September 13, 1999.

Mr. Decker wrote

"The first post on this forum was a reasonable essay about why the lone "prepared" family is basically an hors d'oeuvre for an aggressor force. This was not well accepted and things basically went downhill from there."

I think what REALLY pissed people off was the fact you went and gloated over at Debunkers about your percieved acheivement. Since that board is down it can't be confirmed. But don't start confusing the issue with errors, that is how you got into shit in the first place.

Just had to add that. First step to understanding? Never repeat your errors. Second step, never make errors.


Brian Henderson

To error is human, to forgive is devine.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), September 13, 1999.

>>I've tried to bring an honest perspective to the Y2K debate (and humor from time to time). You'd get the same over beers at the local tavern. Those few who have met me will attest to my good hospitality and country manners. In the spirit of cooperation, I'll try to reduce my high-handed rhetoric (unless I'm kicking Andy's backside for my own amusement.) <<

OK, Mr. Decker, in the same spirit of cooperation, I will curb my amusements with you as well. After all, it is precisely your "high- handed rhetoric" to which I have objected all along. For the sake of intellectual integrity, it's good to see you admitting to the practice. If you are indeed hospitable and mannerly in person, I am amazed that you seem(ed) to be unaware that your inflammatory, derogatory, condescending forum persona is completely at odds with your "in-person" self. I offer the following friendly advice because you appear to be oblivious to this. Unfortunately for you, the vast majority of forum denizens will judge you based on the attributes you've revealed here, (probably moreso than any serious insights you've offered) not on your protestations of how "nice" you are in person. In that regard, you shot yourself in the foot long ago. In the same manner, do yourself a favor and set aside the misguided habit of labelling people. In particular, the use of the term "bully." The term is meaningless. An Internet forum is one of the most egalitarian forms of discussion; anyone who cares to has an equal voice. If it bothers you that you are unable to "shout down" your opponents, that's tough. Andy? He can't shout you down either, can he? Whimpering about the abuse you think you've suffered when you've behaved "bullyish" yourself only makes you appear immature. This is especially ironic in light of the fact that you expect other participants to be grown up, and not allow their tender feelings to be hurt. Physician, heal thyself.

Mr. Grise

-- Elbow Grease (LBO Grise@aol.com), September 13, 1999.

Brian, here is something similar from Biffy.

A visit to Ed Yourdon's forum...

Forum: Gary North is a Big Fat Idiot Forum

Date: Mar 28, 11:50

From: Mr. Decker

Dear Reader,

I dropped by Ed Yourdon's forum and left two posts. The first was a "food for thought" post about how vulnerable the average family is to "marauders." The second post was simply a compilation of other posts I had written here about the free market, Y2K, Gary North, etc.

The response was mixed. Some readers found the posts of some interest. The rest ranged from accusations that I was a "killer" to a "moron" to an "idiot." A few attempted lengthy replies, however, there was very little of interest, particularly in economic thought.

As I noted in one post, Y2K has passed into an article of faith for some individuals. I see little point in continuing a dialogue with those who could not be convinced. I hope someone decides to continue this board until well into 2000. I plan to visit this site and Ed Yourdon's after the millennium to count those who still think the sky is falling.


Mr. Decker

He sees no point in continuing a dialogue. Well you sure could have fooled me with the amount of crap he's left on this forum since then. He wastes a lot of time for somebody who's supposed to be so smart.

-- Just (diggin@the.compost.heap), September 13, 1999.


Oh ya the continuing education of Mr. Decker :o)

Isn't the internet wonderful.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), September 14, 1999.


you're good.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), September 14, 1999.

Thanks Gilda for your "California Rhinestone Cowboy" opinion. We watched the influx of it slowly destroy Colorado, but having it begin to permeate Wyoming was heartbreaking. You display your typical left wing nut sensibility, "farmers and ranchers must be considered equal". Why not throw grape vineyard operators into this same 'group' as well? Some of them may own a goat or two. So glad to hear you've found another forum of victims to air out your brain with.

The Mormons created 'homesteads'. If you're unclear about it, Decker, give Ted Turner a call. He has a ranch (BWAAAHAHAHAHAAA).

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), September 14, 1999.

Mr. Decker (and Bingo, too), I think you need to understand a little of British irony to get a real handle on Andy. Only then will you appreciate Stan's reference to his (Andy's) genius.

-- Colonel Spluttering McAngry (splittin'_me_pants@hahaha.com), September 14, 1999.

Three and one half months to go until January 1, 2000. Can we just give a little breathing room here, not dig up stuff out of old compost piles, and all try to get through what is coming?

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), September 14, 1999.

Oh, come on King. Any digging that is done around here can have some water added to it and then you'll be happy........


-- Will continue (farming@home.com), September 14, 1999.

Russ (Big Dog),

I do not consider you an enemy. You pose no threat to me. I do consider you a zealot. You remind me of a televangelist, Russ, aside from the occasional temper tantrum. You are clever and well-educated enough to dazzle some forum followers. Your sophistry, however, does not pack much water with me. Oh, and apology accepted.


You were clear enough, but bully boy Andy prefers to feel justified in his poor behavior. He and Will Continue make matching book ends. Don't give up hope, though, many American's still believe in common courtesy


Once again, you seem to misunderstand my writings. I have always acknowldged Y2K could be catastrophic... I simply contend that it is not very likely. As this year has progressed, I've been proven correct on a number of counts. Astounding progress has been made in banking, utilities, telecommunications and other critical sectors. Witness the diminished presence of "iron triangle" arguments. We now worry about foreign trade, small businesses, local governments, etc. The free market, unfettered, has made excellent progress. In reality, we've been dealing with Y2K problems all year.

As far as making peace, Diane and I "made up" some time ago. She was gracious enough to meet me in the middle and earned my respect in the process. You'll find my opinion of Russ (Big Dog) above. I've met Stan in person and have no personal issue with him. I just stepped on his feelings when I suggested he might be something of a "preps" junkie. I apologized for my behavior with Hardliner, but he did not see fit to join my in any acceptance of responsibility. For the time being, he fits neatly with Big Dog.

I enjoy thoughts from the thoughtful pessimists... especially solid evidence of existing or potential Y2K failures based on HARD EVIDENCE.

As far as my post on Debunker, READ IT! It was tongue-in-cheek humor AND I defended the thoughful pessimists on this forum. It was Big Dog's rant that made my comments seem gloating. I posted the damn essay under my name. After reading my essays this long, do you think I am so stupid as not to realize TB 2000 posters would read my post on Debunker. And if you think I'm incapable of humor, read my "Wreck of the Y2K Heralds." Sheesh!


Why waste time pretending to be gracious when your intent is to belittle?

I'll continue to use the word "bully." I have copious email from folks who have thanked me for having the guts to make my points on the forum in the face of personal attacks. They don't want to post because of the Andy's, Spain's etc.

Pointing out this poor behavior is not "whining." When I became embroiled in a shouting match with Hardliner, I apologized... unlike any of the other participants. Please, don't prattle on to me about maturity.

Finally, I've made it quite clear I willing to meet our forum bullies nose-to-nose and offer them a chance to insult me in person... or behave like civilized folks. Feel free to take up my invitation, Grise.

"Will Continue,"

I take it you're ancestors are from Wyoming. If so, you must be Native American, though I doubt it. You sound like another immigrant who feels the door should be closed behind them. Since you are so "right wing" perhaps you can tell us your feelings about ranchers living off the public teat through ultra-cheap grazing permits. Or ag subsidies? Or are you like Paul Milne... hating every part of the government except that filling your particular trough? The reality is that public subsidies help build the West... and still serve many "special interests" including ranchers, farmers, etc. Remember that when you have your panties in a bunch over some "gubmint" program.


-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), September 14, 1999.

Thank you for the compliment about being a zealot! As always, your gracious spirit shines through.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), September 14, 1999.


Why waste time pretending to be gracious when your intent is to belittle? <<

I am Mr. Grise. Your stedfast refusal to address me as such is due either to incredible ignorance or deliberate belittling on your part. But you call that "civilized." I respect the name you choose to use here, and I *expect* you to do likewise. My intent is to give you some sorely needed advice. Obviously, you refuse to accept that as well.

>>I'll continue to use the word "bully."<<

Yes, with no justification. Add obstinacy to the list of your most endearing traits.

>> I have copious email from folks who have thanked me for having the guts to make my points on the forum in the face of personal attacks. They don't want to post because of the Andy's, Spain's etc. <<

"Copious email" my butt. I've received email as well. This means what? You have your sympathizers, I have mine. If that's your reasoning, it's pathetic.

>>Pointing out this poor behavior is not "whining." When I became embroiled in a shouting match with Hardliner, I apologized... unlike any of the other participants. Please, don't prattle on to me about maturity.<<

Yes, young man, it *is* whining, regardless of your denial. As to my "prattling," let me remind you that *you,* Mr. Decker, first "prattled" about others behaving maturely. I am merely holding the mirror to your face. I don't wonder that you don't like what you see.

>>Finally, I've made it quite clear I willing to meet our forum bullies nose-to-nose and offer them a chance to insult me in person... or behave like civilized folks. Feel free to take up my invitation, Grise. <<

Sounds to me as if your idea of resolving differences of opinion is to throw mud, imagine an insult and pick a fight. Always the "macho" challenge to take it to the street. You, Mr. Decker, exhibit all the earmarks of a bully. You've proven yourself to be an agitator here, with your broadbrush putdowns, snide remarks and cutesy name-calling, then total bewilderment when your hypocrisies are challenged.

Let me emphasize that I tabbed you as a fraud back on the "What's the point?" thread. If the testimony of Mr. Faryna and others who have met you isn't confirmation that you are different in person, I don't know what is. The dichotomy does not speak well of your character. If that's what you call civilized, I'm afraid any meeting of the two of us would be marked by my watching *my* back the entire time.

Mr. Grise

-- Elbow Grease (LBO Grise@aol.com), September 14, 1999.

Hey, kewl. A whole thread full of preening and posturing. More! Encore!

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), September 14, 1999.

Man! I thought all that hot air was coming from Floyd, but when I opened this thread I found the source.

-- (hee@hee.hee), September 14, 1999.

"Mr." Grise,

It's always the same old tune from you. Here's the deal... I think you are completely insincere. You've been an nasty Miss Manners who has made no notable contribution to the Y2K dialogue. Let's simply come to the conclusion the contempt is mutual.

With regard to your advice, it seems to me your help has far too many sharp edges. I'll pass. As for picking a fight... on this forum I hardly need to. The fight comes to me often enough. Don't worry though, Mr. Grise, I'm not one to come at you from the back.


-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), September 15, 1999.

>>"Mr." Grise,<<

A small concession, I see. The quotation marks, however.... well, maybe you were using them for emphasis. There's hope for you yet. >>It's always the same old tune from you. Here's the deal... I think you are completely insincere.<<

Mr. Decker, you have me all wrong! In what sense am I being insincere? Please, Mr. Decker, answer just one question directly: Since you refuse to moderate the "sharp edges" of your own forum persona, why do you whine about the behavior of others? The same old tune? How many folks, in addition to Hardliner, BigDog, Stan and myself and others, must remark on your heavy-handed condescension before you get the message? If you have a learning disability, or you've been diagnosed as schizophrenic, I will surely apologize and move on, as amusing as this has been. But I've owned pets who learned faster than you. No offense intended.

>>You've been an nasty Miss Manners who has made no notable contribution to the Y2K dialogue. Let's simply come to the conclusion the contempt is mutual.<<

That is a deceitful statement. Mr. Decker, my presence here predates yours by more than 18 months, and I have made my contributions, though not on subjects you were likely to read. So don't make accusations through your own ignorance, Mr. Decker-come-lately. More to the point, however, *you* and *I* have discussed various points on some of the economic threads. If you want to debate how "notable" my participation has been, have at it. To give the devil his due, I've never had much disagreement with most of your economic views, though often enough they were reposts of articles by someone else. And I see no need to post "I agree" responses. Your first post on defending a fixed position was not objectionable to me either, but then I did not read it until long after the initial furor. Note, however, that you were not the first to present the subject to this forum. Note also that it caused no great dissension the first time around. I wonder why.

I must also disabuse you of your mistaken conclusion of mutual contempt. This is just another demeaning term you like to toss around all too freely. Rest assured, my "contempt" is simply criticism of what is clearly a poorly developed persona. I have no contempt for you because I do not know you. By the same token, you don't know me. OTOH, your expressions of contempt are near universal. Who is in error here? Moderation, young man.

Until your writings begin to show some measure of convergence with the real-life personality you imagine yourself to be, I must consider my back still vulnerable. You should not receive a free pass either.

Mr. Grise

-- Elbow Grease (LBO Grise@aol.com), September 15, 1999.

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