(OT) Waco, from one who was there.

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This viewpoint should be required reading to balance the Waco data input of late. This was written in 1995, it was true then and it is true now.
The Waco Dispute - Why the ATF Had to Act The Washington Post, Sunday July 2, 1995 By Steve Higgins It was probably inevitable that the tragic bombing of a federal building in Oklahoma City would get linked to the disastrous fire at the Branch Davidian compound. The events, as most everyone knows by now, occurred exactly two years apart and the principal suspect in the Oklahoma bombing not only visited Waco but is known to have been greatly angered by what he saw there.
The link was reinforced when, a short time after the bombing, President Clinton was asked a question on "60 minutes" that sought to imply the events of Waco contributed to or even justified what happened in Oklahoma. His reply was short and direct as he challenged the temerity of anyone who would suggest that Waco brought on the tragic bombing. That such a question could even be asked shows how deeply ingrained some of the Waco myths have become.
As the former director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF), I have personally answered my share of similarly posed questions. And I continue to be surprised - even after five sets of congressional hearings and extensive government reviews - at how much misinformation still persists about the event surrounding Waco. It's probably evidence that what people hear first is what they remember longest, even when subsequent reviews may show the original reports to have been in error.
I am not so naove to think that people will blindly accept my accounting of the events surrounding Waco, only hopeful that reasonable people will realize there are at least two sides to every story. Here's mine.
First, let me say that, despite what fundraisers at the National Rifle Association would have us believe, the ATF is not part of some sinister federal plot to confiscate guns from innocent people. In fact, it is a matter of public record that the ATF did not go looking for the Davidians. In the first place. A local deputy sheriff received a report from a United Parcel Services driver who said that a package had broken apart on delivery, revealing inert grenade casings inside. The driver also reported earlier suspicious deliveries of firearms parts, casings and black powder.
In May 1992, the deputy asked the ATF for assistance, thus triggering the extensive investigation that led the issuance of search and arrest warrants by a federal magistrate-judge in February 1993. So conspiracy theorists had best include the local sheriff's office and UPS as part of the collusion.
On the day before the warrants were served by ATF officials, the Waco Tribune-Herald began a series of articles on the Davidians, detailing the potential danger the group represented to the community as well as, somewhat ironically, the failure of local law enforcement agencies in addressing the threat. (The conspiracy now would have to include the local newspaper publisher!)
There are those who argue that the Davidians were a peaceful, law-abiding people who at worst may have merely been violating federal firearms laws in building their arsenal of automatic weapons and explosives. But those who would so easily counsel the government to ignore firearms violations should consider the potential consequences of such a policy. They should recall that Davidian leader David Koresh had told a social services worker from the Texas Department Human Services that the work was coming to an end and that the riots in Los Angeles would pale in comparison to what was going to happen in Waco.
While it was never clear precisely what Koresh had in mind, during the later standoff he sent a letter out of the compound, according to the Justice Department reports, indicating he may have been planning some type of operation to blow up the dam at Lake Waco. A former resident of the compound later told government officials, again according to Justice, that Koresh wanted to force an armed confrontation with ATF and repeatedly at one point considered opening fire at a Waco fast-food restaurant just to do so.
To those who remain convinced that such information should have been ignored, or who believe that ATF was too concerned about the possibility of mass suicide if ATF conducted a lengthy siege of the compound rather than attempt a surprise entry, I can only say: Remember Jonestown. Or remember the members of the sect in Canada and Switzerland who committed mass suicide earlier this year. Or look at what happened in the subways in Japan, where a group whose presence was known and considered potentially dangerous by government officials allegedly uncorked a deadly nerve gas. The day has long passed when we can afford to ignore the threat posed by individuals who believe they are subject only to the laws of their god and not those of our government.
Most disturbing to me is the persistent claim by many Koresh sympathizers that the Davidians were only defending themselves when they shot and killed four ATF agents and wounded numerous others on Feb. 28, 1993 - the morning of the raid. While there have been some allegations that the agents were in fact killed inadvertently when other ATF officers opened fire, the Treasury report found this was not the case. Only one agent inside the compound may have been wounded by friendly fire, but even this was never clearly proven. Yet what possible excuse could there have been for the Davidians even taking up arms - let along using them - upon learning inadvertently from a TV cameraman that ATF agents were on their way to serve warrants?
The law requires that when served a warrant, we comply with that warrant and let the judicial systems determine our ultimate guilt or innocence. Had the Davidians done so, there would have been no subsequent loss of life on either side.
Instead, they armed themselves with automatic firearms, grenades and semi-automatic .50 caliber rifle, opening fire when the agents arrived. To those who insist that ATF fired first, the Treasury report concluded it was the Davidians who had done so, and the Texas Ranger interviews of the only impartial observers who were there that morning - the media - all support the fact that it was the Davidians who opened fire. In fact, several witnesses reported agents being fired on even before they could exit the trucks.
As for those who insist ATF should have simply driven up to the compound and politely asked to conduct a search without displaying any firearms, I refer them again to the Treasury report, which said it best by claiming such an approach would have been "foolhardy and irresponsible." To which I could only add dangerous and potentially suicidal.
Leave aside for the moment whether ATF commanders did in fact determine the morning of the raid that Koresh had been tipped off they were coming and tragically led the agents into an ambush, as the Treasury report concluded. Assume for the sake of argument that the raid commanders should have reached that conclusion and canceled the raid. The fact is, the raid wasn't canceled. By what perverted sense of logic or legality does it somehow follow, as some have argued, that because the ATF made a mistake in not aborting the raid, the Davidians were therefore entitled to offer armed resistance and kill the agents as they arrived to serve legal, court-ordered warrants?
In my view the Davidians reacted in a criminal and violent manner. Unfortunately, there is a small but perhaps growing number of groups that feel much the same way, thought they may not cloak their beliefs in religion. By contending that they are not subject to the laws that bind this country, we allow these groups to pose a serious threat that far exceed their relative numbers.
With all that has transpired, what will another round of hearings tell us? I've heard a number of commentators and even some members of Congress suggest that another Waco hearing might help prevent more tragedies like Oklahoma City. If that were true, I would not hesitate to condone them.
Realistically, however, I find it hard to believe that the type of people who would kill hundred of innocent people by bombing a downtown building truly care about Waco other than to possibly use it as an excuse for their behavior. What rational connection can there be between the event on April 19, 1993, in Waco - where an independent review concluded that the Davidians, including many innocent men, women and children, died in a fire that was set by other residents of the compound - and the bombing in Oklahoma City where hundreds of innocent men, women and children were killed or injured by criminals in a vicious and cowardly act? Less than a day after the bombing, one individual told a television audience that, while the bombing was regrettable, the bomb itself was a "Rembrandt." Another person interviewed in Pennsylvania two weeks after the Oklahoma bombing said his reaction to the explosion was that it was a "damned good start."
Are these the kind of people who another hearing on Waco is intended to influence? I can only hope that, out of the tragedy in Oklahoma City there can in time come something positive. By seeing the faces of the survivors and reading their stories, maybe those who so vehemently rail against government authority in general, and government workers in particular, will come to understand better that those people they've been so quick to criticize have real faces and real families. They car-pool to work. They coach Little League sports. They mow their lawns. They're the family next door that waters your plants and takes in your mail while you're away.
No one deserves to have their life placed in jeopardy simply because they work in, or happen to be passing by, a government office. And no one, not even law enforcement officers who get paid for rising their lives, deserves to be targeted by violence extremists threatening to kill them simply for doing their jobs.
As for people like Gordon Liddy who think words don't matter and see nothing wrong with advising listeners to shoot ATF agents in the head because they wear bulletproof vests, I doubt there's much hope. Liddy dismisses such comments as mere words, nothing to get stirred up over. ATF agents take little consolation in Liddy's response that he meant his advice to apply only in self defense, when his listeners probably include a number of potentially violent individuals who think any time an ATF agent comes on their property with a legal warrant they've somehow got a right to defend themselves. As someone who has been an occasional recipient of his invectives, I hope he's right, because I've got a lot more to lose if he's wrong than he does.
If nothing else, however, I think it's worth remembering that Waco was not the Alamo, and David Koresh was no Davey Crockett. By his violent actions both on February 28 and April 19, 1993, he showed that he placed no more value on human life than did Charles Manson, the Son of Sam and those cowardly individuals who placed the bomb in Oklahoma City. To make him into something larger than that is to do a tremendous disservice to the young agents who lost their lives.
We can't change the outcome of what happened at Waco, but we have a responsibility not to ignore simple fairness and compassion in our search for the truth. If there is to be another hearing on Waco, let's hope it's for the purpose of examining the facts and learning from the tragedy, not merely to please one more special interest group with an anti-government agenda.

-- Truth (at@the.ready), September 08, 1999

Answers

Thank you "Truth" a.k.a. Joseph Goebbels, for this view from one more special interest group with a pro-government agenda.
"Government is organized crime."

-- Count Vronsky (Vronsky@anna.com), September 08, 1999.

A FOURTEEN-YEAR OLD girl has helped to demolish the myth that the dead Branch Davidian cult leader David Koresh was a martyr destroyed by a ruthless FBI operation at Waco, Texas, in April 1995.
In evidence to Congress, which is investigating the episode, Kiri Jewel described how the self-proclaimed messiah used the sect as a cover for rape.
Koresh has become a legend in some quarters of America among people who are anxious to portray his death as a government conspiracy. His burnt-out compound, where he apparently shot himself, is a mecca for militias and other groups.
The Oklahoma bombing was timed for the second anniversary of the fire - and the man allegedly responsible, Timothy McVeigh, has said he visited Waco, where a militia group has erected a memorial to Koresh.
Kiri, with her father holding her hand, sat before a roomful of congressmen on Capitol Hill, and gave a dramatic account of the activities of the "prophet" and his "new kingdom".
The teenager said she was five when her mother, who also died in the fire, took her to join Koresh's sect. He was obsessed with the biblical Apocalypse and sex. "David was planning to lead the group to Israel to re-take Jerusalem. He taught that there would be a big battle between the forces of the world and his people."
However, this was a cover for abuse. Koresh used a wooden stick to hit the children. "It was called Kelper."
Kiri said that she slept with Koresh and her mother in one bed. She recalled a childhood friend who, at the age of 14, "has a baby for David".
There was an uneasy silence in the congressional chamber as Kiri began to talk of her first sexual encounter with the cult leader at a motel in Waco when she was 10.
He asked her to sit beside him on a bed. "He kissed me. I just sat there, but he then laid me down," she said. After committing a sex act, he instructed her to take a shower and then read from the Bible. Close to tears, Kiri said: "He sat on the bed and read the Song of Solomon."
Recounting more of her sexual initiation, she said that he used Biblical quotations to explain himself. He told her that, "King David from the Bible would sleep with young virgins to keep him warm."
She said: "I had known this would happen sometime, so I just laid there and stared at the ceiling. I was 10 when this happened."

-- Truth (at@the.ready), September 08, 1999.

Thanks for your point of view and the insight on what took place, from the point of view of someone who was there. It is always important to hear and consider both sides of the story. Its pretty easy for facts to get muddled on the internet, and your willingness to step forward with some sanity is appreciated.

-- Appreciate (Appreciate@point.com), September 08, 1999.

WACO Electronic Holocaust Museum In particular see the Dea th and Summary of Preliminary Findings about how many of the women and children were found without heads or other body parts and were in varying states of decomposition.
Ex pended flares found among siege evidence Sept. 8, 1999
The discovery of the incendiary illumination rounds raises new questions for federal officials already scrambling to explain why it took six years for the FBI to admit that its agents used pyrotechnic tear-gas rounds against the Branch Davidians on April 19, 1993.
The government made that admission only after a former senior FBI official told The News that the use of the flammable rounds in Waco was "common knowledge" within the bureau's hostage rescue team.

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), September 08, 1999.

Koresh's character and/or possible crimes are not the issue (note that his guilt could not be established because of the Waco assault).
Nor would it have mattered whether it was Louis Farrakhan or Bozo the Clown in that building.
OUR government was founded to function in a limited manner in the strictest conformity to laws created by its citizens and in meaningful subjection to individual states. It appears from the evidence that the government agents committed mass murder, whether intentionally or from sheer incompetence.
These posts about Koresh are just disinformation WITH RESPECT to that issue.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), September 08, 1999.

Koresh appears to be an accomplished prepper.
FRIDAY, MARCH 5: Nine-year-old Heather JONES leaves compound wearing a note pinned to her jacket on which her mother says that, once the children are out, the adults will die. KORESH and his top aide, Steve SCHNEIDER, deny they are contemplating suicide. The FBI seeks the advice of experts and Davidians on likelihood of mass suicide by the Davidians and receives "inconsistent information." The FBI concludes that the Davidians have a one-year supply of food, including abundant military rations or MREs (meals ready to eat). KORESH continues preaching and threatening violence.
SUNDAY, MARCH 7: Talks with KORESH and others inside the compound go round in circles. The FBI refuses to deliver milk for the children unless more of them are released. KORESH says all the children left in the compound are his biological descendants. A memo by SMERICK and YOUNG advises against tactical options in favor of establishing trust with KORESH. They predict the assault on the compound and say mass suicide is a possibility. GERSON talks SESSIONS out of going to Waco to negotiate directly with KORESH.
FRIDAY, MARCH 19: In a purported attempt to address some of the Davidians' concerns, the FBI delivers to the compound legal documents, letters from KORESH's attorneys and other items. KORESH says he is ready to come out and face the music. Two Davidians, Brad BRANCH and Kevin WHITECLIFF, come out of the compound.
SUNDAY, MARCH 21: At 12:15 a.m., two more women, Victorine HOLLINGSWORTH and Annetta RICHARDS, exit the compound. KORESH says, "I told you that my God says wait." Rita RIDDLE, Gladys OTTMAN, Sheila MARTIN, James LAWTON, and Ofelia SANTOYA come out. In the evening hours the FBI begins playing very loud music, including Tibetan chants, over the loudspeaker system. At 11:35 p.m. KORESH says: "Because of the loud music, nobody is coming out." A short while later, the loudspeaker system malfunctions, and the night ends quietly.
FRIDAY, APRIL 9: "Yahweh" KORESH sends letter to the FBI, saying the "heavens are calling you to judgment." Two experts analyze the letters (and four others sent over the next few days) and conclude he was possibly a psychotic and had no intention of leaving voluntarily. The FBI finalizes plans to use tear gas and seeks RENO's approval.
TUESDAY, APRIL 13: For most of the afternoon, KORESH bombards the negotiators over the phone with what they call "Bible babble," reiterating that he is not coming out until God tells him to do so. HUBBELL meets for 45 minutes in White House counsel Bernard NUSSBAUM's office with top CLINTON aides, Bruce LINDSEY and Vince FOSTER, to discuss the CS gas plan and advise Clinton (This is said to be the "most likely date" of a meeting that occurred sometime during this week.) HUBBELL backs FBI's action plan, citing negotiations impasse and need to pull the HRT back for training. NUSSBAUM reports to CLINTON, telling him that Waco is a matter for the Justice Department to handle.
WEDNESDAY, APRIL 14: A message from KORESH says that he will not surrender until he has written a manuscript explaining the Seven Seals. At a meeting in SESSIONS's office on the tear gas plan, two military experts and the Army's Dr. Harry SALEM brief RENO, detailing what is known about its effect on children ("...although there had been no laboratory tests performed on children relative to the effects of the gas, anecdotal evidence was convincing that there would be no permanent injury"). CLARKE says the Davidians might be running out of water. RENO asks FBI to gather information about the compound's water supply and estimate how long the Davidians could hold out. FBI says rationing is to ensure discipline, and provisions would last a year. RENO meets with Delta Force commanders to review the tear gas plan. [Scruggs 107, 243, 266, 269, 270] The compound is stocked with a year's supply of food rations and was otherwise prepared to withstand an extended siege. SUNDAY, APRIL 18: RENO briefs CLINTON on the CS gas plan, and the President "concurs," but asks questions about assuring the children's safety and adds, "It is your decision."...HUBBELL and LINDSEY are also in the loop...Armored vehicles clear KORESH's Chevrolet Camaro and other vehicles away from the front of the compound...Although the FBI warns the Davidians to stay out of the tower, they hold children up in windows and, in one window, hold a sign saying, "Flames Await."
MONDAY, APRIL 19: At 5:59 a.m., SAGE telephones the Davidians, notifying them of an imminent tear-gas assault. SAGE reads a message over the loudspeaker, advising the Davidians that they are under arrest and should come out. At 6:02 a.m., two FBI combat engineering vehicles, or CEVs, begin inserting gas into the compound through spray nozzles attached to a boom. At 6:04 a.m., the Davidians start shooting, and the FBI begin deploying Bradley vehicles to insert ferret rounds through the windows. At 6:31, the HRT reports that the entire building is being gassed. At about 7 a.m., RENO and senior advisors go to the FBI situation room. At 7:30, a CEV breaches the front side of the building on the first floor as it injects gas, and at 7:58 a.m., gas is inserted in the second floor of the back-right corner of the building. The FBI calls for more gas from outside Waco, and at 9:20 a.m., 48 more ferret rounds arrive from Houston. At about 9:30 a.m., with the supply of ferret rounds dwindling, one CEV is having mechanical troubles, and high winds are blowing the gas away. Another CEV begins enlarging the opening in the middle-front of the building "from which the Davidians could escape" and a third CEV with a boom but lacking a gas delivery system breaches the rear side of the building "to create openings near the gymnasium." At about 11 a.m., (Washington time) RENO talks to CLINTON, saying everything seems to be going well, and she leaves for a judicial conference in Baltimore at 11:30 a.m.. The CEV without a gas delivery system breaches the back side of the compound, concentrating on the back right corner near the warehouse-gymnasium. At 11:40 a.m., the last ferret rounds are delivered. At 11:45 a.m., a wall on the right-rear side of the building collapses. At 12:07 p.m., the Davidians start "simultaneous fires at three or more different locations within the compound." An HRT observer reports seeing "a male starting a fire" in the front of the building. At 12:12 p.m., SAGE calls on KORESH to lead the Davidians out to safety. Nine Davidians flee the compound and are arrested. At about 12:25 p.m., the FBI hears "systematic gunfire" coming from the compound, leaving several agents the impression that the Davidians are either killing themselves or each other. At 12:41, fire-fighting efforts begin. HRT agents enter tunnels to search for survivors, especially children. In the afternoon at an unspecified time HUBBELL speaks to McLARTY. After her appearance on ABC's television program "Nightline," RENO talks again to CLINTON. [ Scruggs 6, 110-113, 245, 285-292] Sometime in mid-morning an apparent deviation from the approved plan begins. The plan contemplated that the building would not be dismantled if after 48 hours not all the people had come out. However, the CEV's begin knocking holes into the compound the morning of the assault. The CEV not equipped with tear gas knocks down a corner of the building, and a portion of the roof collapsed, in order to clear a path to the main tower so that the other CEV could insert gas in the area.

-- Truth (at@the.ready), September 08, 1999.

Exactly. We all know what happened. The govt. stormed the compound and burned it to cinders. This guy who was supposedly there knows nothing and is just trying to add his "spin."

-- (we@know.the.truth), September 08, 1999.

Sorry for the double hit. These are facts not fiction and come from people who were personally involved not a bunch of wanna be's that are so sure they know what happened.

-- Truth (at@the.ready), September 08, 1999.

This is "spin" not fact, and we all know the difference. The gov burned the compound. That's a FACT.

-- (we@know.the.truth), September 08, 1999.

Kind of reminds me of the teenage girl who "came forward" after the Iraqis invaded Kuwait. She too, gave Congressional testimony, to the effect that Iraqi soldiers were throwing babies out of incubators and stealing them (the incubators). It was an enormous load of horseshit; the girl was the Kuwaiti ambassador's daughter, and eventually the story was admitted to be a total fabrication. But by then a teary-eyed Congress had written a blank check. So pardon me if I retain some skepticism about the testimony of a disgruntled former church-member's daughter - given just in time to mitigate a brutal atrocity, and satisfy everone's deep-seated need to absolve "their" government of blame.
And even, supposing for a moment that it were true. Just supposing. 80 plus people, some 24 children among them, were deliberately torched and fired upon with machine guns to prevent them from escaping the burning buildings. This is clearly visible in the Forward Looking Infrared film footage, as interpreted by the camera's patent-holder. What if he was a nasty, awful child-molesting monster who deserved to be shot, gassed, burned, ground to powder by tanks and then stomped up and down upon by hob-nailed boots? Does that justify what the WAR MACHINE UNLEASHED AT WACO did to the rest of those people, those children? Always the narrow focus on Koresh - anything to distract us from what's really occuring. Just give us someone to hate, and we're happy to leave the facts behind. This is the mentality that has turned "righteousness" from the highest virtue into a term of derision.
Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), September 08, 1999.

What is a "prepper"?
And.. since you were there.. why was the evidence destroyed by bulldosing the compound?

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), September 08, 1999.

I don't usually get involved with Off Topic posts, but this is an exception. First of all, there is no reason to place any particular credibility on an anonymous report by someone pushing the gov't line on anything. Every American over the age of 12 knows the gov't lies to us constantly.
Secondly, there is no getting around the fact that 84 people, many of them totally innocent Christian women and children, died horribly because trigger happy FBI and Delta Force storm troopers assaulted the compound with tanks and tear gas and automatic weapons. You know what, buddy, you and all your murdering associates make me sick to my stomach.

-- cody (cody@y2ksurvive.com), September 08, 1999.

Count "Ayatollah Khomeini" Vronsky,
Thank you for reminding us that anyone that has an opposing viewpoint, must be the devil. Gotta keep the faithful in line, you know. Can't let there be any exposure to "Satanic" ideas.
How about letting us "plebians" be exposed to both sides of the issue, and deciding for ourselves? I've read all the threads here, and I've been to the Waco Holocaust Museum site. Now I'd like to hear from the other side, thank you.
Truth,
Thanks for posting this. I sure hope you know how to take a flame.

-- Bokonon (bok0non@my-Deja.com), September 08, 1999.

BJ set the standard pal. So how do you expect any of the U.S. to believe you. Lying is O. K. in this country now, OR IS It. Sorry ,but I am gonna have to take you with all the credibuility of Bill and Hill. Oh yea and you can through the FBI in with that lot too!

-- Troll (light@interx.net), September 08, 1999.

HEY, TRUTH- here's a news flash for ya' guy. The people that were there are the ones being accused of MASS MURDER.
You mean to tell me that we should accept their word as gospel??
Is it possible that they are LYING like the common criminal's they are accused of being.
Could they be LYING like the FBI did concerning Ruby Ridge???? (they were fined $90,000 for that) I believe that just accepting the word of the accused is not common sense. Do the police ask the criminal to investigate the crime he is accused of???

-- Brent James Bushardt (brentj@webt.com), September 08, 1999.

I asked a few minutes ago what a "prepper" is. You said: "Koresh appears to be an accomplished prepper." But then the article says that the Davidians were thought to have a year's supply of food. Is that perhaps why you felt the need to post this? Are you perhaps implying that a "prepper" (i.e. someone who makes preparations) is a whacko and deserves what Koresh got?
Or did you just have an overwhelming need to see that the "truth" comes out about this controversial subject?
If that is the case, you perhaps should wait a while so that you can be sure which version of truth will stick. The official "truth" seems to be somewhat... flexible... right about now.

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), September 08, 1999.

The overwhelming refusal to believe anything that might lend the truth to Waco kind of reminds me of the mindless attacks on those who are Y2K GIs. So often the truth is in the eyes of the beholder and not always based in fact. Waco happened 6 years ago, where have all of you righteous, outraged, anti-government screamers been all of these years? As always, the truth will prevail somewhere in the middle of the spectrum, not on the outer edges.

-- Truth (at@the.ready), September 08, 1999.

So it seems the current story is like this:
Here we have Koresh, not entirely playing with a full deck, knowing his behavior is questionable, and distrusting the government. He's apparently building an arsenal, illegal even at the time.
So, the government gets a warrant. But apparently not until laying siege to the compound for many weeks? What's the timing here?
Anyway, Koresh has got to be aware that if he peacefully allows in those who have been surrounding him for so long, they will find all kinds of stuff he shouldn't have. By now, they're so upset they'll find it whether he has it or not. In any case, he is certain to lose his sultan's living, complete with harem. And face very umpleasant things.
So when he learns of the warrant, he decides to shoot it out and take his chances. This unfortunately plays into the hands of an embarrassed, impatient and irritated surrounding government force. And that force decides to use all the firepower they've collected there to destroy both the compound and any evidence that they got carried away in the process.
(Anyone else here ever been shot at? You don't always respond thoughtfully. Sometimes you really do lose control).
A lawyer friend of mine, long ago, told of how things reach court. Little Jimmy calls neighbor Sammy a name at school. Sammy gets back by getting some friends together to hit Jimmy. Jimmy responds by dousing Sammy's dog with gasoline and lighting it up. Sammy's parents take Jimmy's parents to court. But this battle has been escalating all the time. Just like Sammy and Jimmy, either Koresh or the ATF could have each done many things to defuse the situation, and each side felt more righteous than the other.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), September 08, 1999.

Truth, address the fact that the Davidians repeatedly asked for media correspondence ( you can see several attempts by them hanging sheets out of the windows); and the FLIR images of automatic weapons being fired into the building (where most of the bodies were found) as it burned. Explain the interveiws with some of the members, who, had many oppurtunities to leave or indicate that they were afraid of Koresh but didn't.

-- KoFE (your@town.USA), September 08, 1999.

Flint, you said...
'So, the government gets a warrant. But apparently not until laying siege to the compound for many weeks? What's the timing here?'
Huh? The siege started when the warrant was being served, not weeks later. What's your timing here?
Bokonon....thanks for your support of both sides of this issue. Not to worry- I'm flame proof.
Linda.....I should have been more detailed in my 'prepper' comment. I was only trying to point out that the Davidians had laid-in supplies for a lengthly period of time. Most desirable these days but it may have had other meanings to that situation. I'm a GI so no there was no hidden agendas in that statement.
And to the rest of you extremists....I will continue to honor and respect your views.

-- Truth (at@the.ready), September 08, 1999.

Truth, you said: "The overwhelming refusal to believe anything that might lend the truth to Waco kind of reminds me of the mindless attacks on those who are Y2K GIs."
I say: The overwhelming refusal to believe the criminal when he says 'I didn't do it'
Do you see the Disconnect that you are making??? If you post again and avoid the question again, you will bring light upon my argument. Thank you :)

-- Brent James Bushardt (brentj@webt.com), September 08, 1999.

Truth you say: "Huh? The siege started when the warrant was being served, not weeks later. What's your timing here?"
Ummm, no. The warrant was actually issued a day or 3 AFTER the BATF showed up. It was back-dated to the correct date. Watch the congressional hearings on the Waco:Rules of Engagement tape.

-- Brent James Bushardt (brentj@webt.com), September 08, 1999.

First, I will believe that this young girl's testimony is true until proven otherwise; however, there was an investigation for child abuse and nothing like this turned up at the time. This testimony came AFTER THE FACT. This is important because 1) THE RAID WAS NOT BASED ON HER ACCUSATIONS OR TESTIMONY 2) It will be extremely difficult if not impossible to investigate her accusations now and 3) It was reported that she has given inconsistent testimonies.
Now on to the attempt at disinformation by the head of the organization that is suspected of serious criminal behavior.
" it was true then and it is true now. " And conversely, if it was false then, it is just as false now.
"His (clinton's) reply was short and direct as he challenged the temerity of anyone who would suggest that Waco brought on the tragic bombing."
First of all, the demolition expertise and results displayed in the Oklahoma bombing have motivated testimony by high ranking experts within our military which basically said that a civilian with a truck, like McVeigh, could NOT have acted alone. They are convinced that there were experts and sophisticated materials involved. If that's a conspiratorial and false accusation, then it involved members of our own military. Once again, another crime scene that was hurriedly destroyed. Second, it was a disingenuously inaccurate statement for Clinton to make. Yes, of course, Waco could have motivated some disgruntled mad bomber, but it definitely did not JUSTIFY it. Two wrongs did not make a right.
" As the former director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF), "
Gee, no bias here, no sirree. Just a law abidin' citizen.
"And I continue to be surprised - even after five sets of congressional hearings and extensive government reviews - at how much misinformation still persists about the event surrounding Waco"
Surprised why? Is he implying that our leaders are too dense to sort through misinformation and evidence that leaves unanswered questions? Does he understand the concept of 'new evidence' and 'new findings'?
"It's probably evidence that what people hear first is what they remember longest, even when subsequent reviews may show the original reports to have been in error."
Yes, sigh. Those poor moronic Congressmen and Senators. They probably need to be reminded to wipe. They jest cain't remember that complee-cated pile of evidence. Gol durn it. (But wait, tee hee, the average dumbed down civilian might fall for this!)
"I am not so naove to think that people will blindly accept my accounting of the events surrounding Waco, only hopeful that reasonable people will realize there are at least two sides to every story."
Hmmm. I read no evidence in his writings that he recognizes any other side than his story. But since he has acknowledged this truth, then he should not mind the continued investigation.
" First, let me say that, despite what fundraisers at the National Rifle Association would have us believe, the ATF is not part of some sinister federal plot to confiscate guns from innocent people. "
Tell it to the murdered son and wife of Randy Weaver. The other side of the story.
"In fact, it is a matter of public record that the ATF did not go looking for the Davidians."
In fact, it may soon become a matter of public record that the ATF did. Does Bill Buford ring a bell?
"A local deputy sheriff received a report from a United Parcel Services driver who said that a package had broken apart on delivery, revealing inert grenade casings inside. The driver also reported earlier suspicious deliveries of firearms parts, casings and black powder."
Okay. Where is the evidence that anything contained in these packages was illegal? These people were licensed gun dealers, remember? The local law enforcement did check them out for illegal weapons. They were INVITED in to inspect. They were allowed to remove weapons which were inspected and returned. There was absolutely NOTHING ever found to substantiate this charge. Later on, simply an accusation that a weapons tax 'may not have been paid'.
"In May 1992, the deputy asked the ATF for assistance, thus triggering the extensive investigation that led the issuance of search and arrest warrants by a federal magistrate-judge in February 1993."
He still does not explain why the extremely concerned/alarmed ATF did not just arrest Koresh when the ATF agents were there target shooting with him, or why they declined the sheriff's offer to pick him up.
" On the day before the warrants were served by ATF officials, the Waco Tribune-Herald began a series of articles on the Davidians, detailing the potential danger the group represented to the community as well as, somewhat ironically, the failure of local law enforcement agencies in addressing the threat."
Since when do we arrest and murder people based on a reporter's concern that they may POTENTIALLY be dangerous?
" (The conspiracy now would have to include the local newspaper publisher!)"
I now challenge anyone to prove that the mainstream media globally is owned by more than a handful, thus constituting a dangerous monopoly that can be used and manipulated. The news media was used to promote or undermine political campaigns and issues long before this anyway. For example, have you ever studied W.R. Hearst? Apparently the author of this article had not.
" There are those who argue that the Davidians were a peaceful, law- abiding people who at worst may have merely been violating federal firearms laws in building their arsenal of automatic weapons and explosives. "
There has NEVER been proof that they violated any federal firearms laws.
"But those who would so easily counsel the government to ignore firearms violations should consider the potential consequences of such a policy"
Again, are we basing search, seizure, arrest and MURDER based on what any Joe Schmoe or Government thug feels might POTENTIALLY be dangerous? Heavens, better start confiscating all booze, look at all the deaths from drunken drivers annually! And those cigarettes, stomp em out! And better remove all knives from kitchens except butter knives, and house hold cleaners that might poison toddlers, and while we're at it,... remove all female employees from within a mile of our prez. Talk about potentially dangerous! Do you know how to hum "Juanita, Juanita"?
"They should recall that Davidian leader David Koresh had told a social services worker from the Texas Department Human Services that the work was coming to an end and that the riots in Los Angeles would pale in comparison to what was going to happen in Waco. "
Question, ... when did this social worker first testify? Let's keep in mind that actions speak louder than words. There is still no PROOF that the Davidians did anything violent. They were not feared in their community in general, to the contrary! I believe that this evidence would be tossed out in a court of law as hearsay.
"While it was never clear precisely what Koresh had in mind, during the later standoff he sent a letter out of the compound, according to the Justice Department reports, indicating he may have been planning some type of operation to blow up the dam at Lake Waco."
He sent out an incriminating letter did he? "....according to the (IN)Justice Department" huh? And they think it MAY have indicated a violent intention? So they gassed and fried kids. Makes a lot of sense, NOT. "A former resident of the compound later told government officials, again according to Justice, that Koresh wanted to force an armed confrontation with ATF and repeatedly at one point considered opening fire at a Waco fast-food restaurant just to do so."
Notice that he uses the terminology, "former resident". Could this have been one of the government plants inside the compound? (And there were government plants, they even admitted to that, so don't get your shorts in a twisted knot.) A very unbiased source of information. AGAIN, they are suggesting what he MAY have done. DO YOU NOTICE THAT HE HAS NOT GIVEN ONE SOLID ACCUSATION OR BIT OF EVIDENCE OF BREAKING THE LAW?
"To those who remain convinced that such information should have been ignored, or who believe that ATF was too concerned about the possibility of mass suicide if ATF conducted a lengthy siege of the compound rather than attempt a surprise entry, I can only say: Remember Jonestown. Or remember the members of the sect in Canada and Switzerland who committed mass suicide earlier this year. Or look at what happened in the subways in Japan, where a group whose presence was known and considered potentially dangerous by government officials allegedly uncorked a deadly nerve gas"
Let's follow this logic, to prevent the violence we fear MAY happen, we will ignore these people's Constitutionally protected rights and KILL THEM ALL NOW BEFORE THEY KILL THEMSELVES, and in a grisly gruesome way to boot. Tough luck about those kids.
"The day has long passed when we can afford to ignore the threat posed by individuals who believe they are subject only to the laws of their god and not those of our government."
Now this cuts to the heart of it, doesn't it? He has still not demonstrated anything other than a fear of and distaste for the Davidians. But the government is the Almighty to him. By Jingo, if the government says to use banned deadly gas on women and kids, then those dirty little cultists deserve it.
" Most disturbing to me is the persistent claim by many Koresh sympathizers that the Davidians were only defending themselves when they shot and killed four ATF agents and wounded numerous others on Feb. 28, 1993 - the morning of the raid"
Most disturbing to me is the lack of ANY evidence to the contrary. Why did the most crucial evidence disappear? It theoretically would have totally exonerated the ATF, by showing the trajectile of the bullets. Yet they have not produced any of this exonerationg evidence. It vanished. What a mystery.
"While there have been some allegations that the agents were in fact killed inadvertently when other ATF officers opened fire, the Treasury report found this was not the case. Only one agent inside the compound may have been wounded by friendly fire, but even this was never clearly proven."
Does this explain the expert assassination skills employed to kill them, or the fact that three of them had identical head shots? Or that they were all connected to Clinton? What a coincidence!! "Never clearly proven" appears to be an understatementof great magnitude.
"Yet what possible excuse could there have been for the Davidians even taking up arms - let along using them - upon learning inadvertently from a TV cameraman that ATF agents were on their way to serve warrants?"
Let's see.... if the testimony of others is true, (backed up by the 911 call) that it was the Feds firing in, wounding and killing civilians, and our elite killing machine Delta force was involved, what Wussie Willy among you would not try to defend your family? As Pinky would say, "Walnut, .... or world domination?" AND let us not forget that the friendly INVITATION to come in and inspect whatever extended to the BATF had been TURNED DOWN.
"The law requires that when served a warrant, we comply with that warrant and let the judicial systems determine our ultimate guilt or innocence. Had the Davidians done so, there would have been no subsequent loss of life on either side."
Had the BATF allowed the sheriff to pick him up, the same could be said. But that would have taken away the opportunity for publicity and promoting more funds for their organization.
"opening fire when the agents arrived. To those who insist that ATF fired first, the Treasury report concluded it was the Davidians who had done so, and the Texas Ranger interviews of the only impartial observers who were there that morning - the media - all support the fact that it was the Davidians who opened fire. "
The government's report? The same who just admitted to lying for six years? ROTFL The impartial media? ROTFLMAOL Why did they keep most media a few miles away? Were they afraid of a truly impartial reporter seeing something?
"As for those who insist ATF should have simply driven up to the compound and politely asked to conduct a search without displaying any firearms, I refer them again to the Treasury report, which said it best by claiming such an approach would have been "foolhardy and irresponsible." To which I could only add dangerous and potentially suicidal. "
This alone should either tell you that this author is a LIAR or many of the local law enforcement there were agreeing together to lie. Hmmm. Whaddaya think? ("We never used an incendiary device! Never!")
"By what perverted sense of logic or legality does it somehow follow, as some have argued, that because the ATF made a mistake in not aborting the raid, the Davidians were therefore entitled to offer armed resistance and kill the agents as they arrived to serve legal, court-ordered warrants?"
What perverted sense of logic, legality or MORALITY makes him think that they could ignore Constitutionally protected rights and massacre civilians? There were TWENTY FOUR CHILDREN in there!!! Don't give us anymore horseshit that they couldn't wait. These people used psychological warfare against the advice of negotiators, and on some trumped up suspicion of child abuse, used deadly gas and force, and then have the gall to deny they were part of the carnage?
" In my view the Davidians reacted in a criminal and violent manner. Unfortunately, there is a small but perhaps growing number of groups that feel much the same way, thought they may not cloak their beliefs in religion. By contending that they are not subject to the laws that bind this country, we allow these groups to pose a serious threat that far exceed their relative numbers. "
Pay attention here Americans. Are you part of a group that is considered a serious threat? Remember that the Davidians did not actually BREAK the law, but they were CONSIDERED a threat, they MAY have done something in the future.
By the way, was it wrong to not obey the laws of this country when it said that blacks were not human, and they were property? Was it wrong to aid and abet runaway slaves? Just wondering.
"With all that has transpired, what will another round of hearings tell us? "
I don't think he really wants to know.
"Realistically, however, I find it hard to believe that the type of people who would kill hundred of innocent people by bombing a downtown building truly care about Waco other than to possibly use it as an excuse for their behavior."
My, aren't we judgemental and condescending. Message translated: Don't you dare feel sorry for those dead crazy cultists, or you're just another whacko looking for an excuse!
" Another person interviewed in Pennsylvania two weeks after the Oklahoma bombing said his reaction to the explosion was that it was a "damned good start......... Are these the kind of people who another hearing on Waco is intended to influence? I can only hope that, out of the tragedy in Oklahoma City there can in time come something positive."
Who cares about an investigation INFLUENCING anybody! It seems the purpose of this article is to INFLUENCE emotions and thinking. The PURPOSE of an INVESTIGATION is to move beyond feelings and establish solid evidence and TRUTH. So yes, may the truth come out about Waco and Oklahoma.
" By seeing the faces of the survivors and reading their stories, maybe those who so vehemently rail against government authority in general, and government workers in particular, will come to understand better that those people they've been so quick to criticize have real faces and real families. They car-pool to work. They coach Little League sports. They mow their lawns. They're the family next door that waters your plants and takes in your mail while you're away...... No one deserves to have their life placed in jeopardy simply because they work in, or happen to be passing by, a government office. And no one, not even law enforcement officers who get paid for rising their lives, deserves to be targeted by violence extremists threatening to kill them simply for doing their jobs. "
Yes, Mr. Arm of the Government. The Davidians also watered their plants, read their mail, and had real faces and real names. And no one, not even crazy cultists, deserved to be targeted by violent government extremists who appear to have killed with impervious impunity and nefarious motives.
" By his violent actions both on February 28 and April 19, 1993, he showed that he placed no more value on human life than did Charles Manson, the Son of Sam and those cowardly individuals who placed the bomb in Oklahoma City."
Hopefully, we shall soon KNOW who had misplaced the value of human life. Let's see, how many BATF dead, and how many Davidians? Meanwhile, I can't forget the dismembered, mutilated, decapitated and fried children.
" We can't change the outcome of what happened at Waco, but we have a responsibility not to ignore simple fairness and compassion in our search for the truth. If there is to be another hearing on Waco, let's hope it's for the purpose of examining the facts and learning from the tragedy,"
Amen Brother! And let's not forget JUSTICE!!!

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 08, 1999.

To those who remain convinced that such information should have been ignored, or who believe that ATF was too concerned about the possibility of mass suicide if ATF conducted a lengthy siege of the compound rather than attempt a surprise entry, I can only say: Remember Jonestown.
Yes indeed.
Remember another cult. One that was hounded by representatives of our government. A cult that even went so far as to leave America in order to live as they saw fit. But, no that wasnt good enough. You see, those folks were communists with weird religious beliefs, and that is down right un-American. So, do to the intrusive efforts of family members trying to save consenting adults from their odd religious beliefs, and, due to the intrusive actions of Congressman Leo Ryan and others, we see a tragic example of people forced into a corner. Moving thousands of miles away was not enough to save them, they were hounded by US government representatives even in Guyana. And people with their backs against the wall often do irrational things.
But they were a wacky cult, so I suppose that they got what they deserved.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), September 08, 1999.

All this fuss over a two hundred dollar tax beef?

-- Tom Beckner (tbeckner@xout.erols.com), September 08, 1999.

Bokonon, I don't consider my response a flame. The reference to Goebbels was straight-forward: the propaganda minister for a criminal government. Maybe some of the Jews killed by that government had commited crimes as well. We'll never know, they never had a chance to stand trial. The reference to Satan is irrelevant, coming from you, not me.

-- Count Vronsky (vronsky@anna.com), September 08, 1999.

Sure, I know posters on this board use alias e-mail address & names; God knows I sure want anonymity. My question to "Truth(@the ready)" is probably irrelevant-- since I, too, believe it is pure "spin"-- so I offer it for its rhetorical value: if you were, as you posted, the former director of the BATF, then your identity is probably public record. . . If you were, and if you were there, and if what you write is the "truth", and your alias is "Truth"-- why the use of/need for an alias? I mean, if you were what you post that you were, won't we be reading about your testimony in front of Congress, or whomever it is that conducts the upcoming investigation of the events at Waco? And if you do post again, I too am curious as to why many of the bodies were found dismembered and burned to an absolute crisp; and why the fire department was held at bay, and why the place was bulldozed before any "real" law enforcement folks could get to the (crime) scene? You wrote "In my view the Davidians reacted in a criminal and violent manner". Well, in MY view the irony of your view is just too rich... Nevertheless, I DO believe THAT sentence you wrote is the "Truth".

-- Tom Doubting (Yea@Right.net), September 08, 1999.

What bothers me most about Wayco is something that almost happened to me. After a jury declaired Randy Weaver innocent of murder I wrote a letter to the editor here in Gig Harbor Washington. I used Waco and the Ruby Ridge events to support the idea of our constutional right to bear arms. I stated that history teaches that goverments are the greatest murderers of innocent lives, not common criminals.
Shortly after the artical came out I was told by a Pierce County sheriff that I was considered a possiable subject to investigate by the local ATF. The sheriff happened to be a good friend and told them I was an ok guy and they backed off.
I havent written to paper sence. I am afraid to!
Willie

-- William Easley (ge@wa.net), September 08, 1999.

>>>"In fact, it is a matter of public record that the ATF did not go looking for the Davidians."<<<
WRONG. It may be a matter of public record, but that's only because that is what the ATF publicly stated. TWO ATF agents were in the Davidian Compound SHOOTING AR-15's WITH Koresh 9 DAYS BEFORE THE SEIGE. Now THAT is a matter of DOCUMENTED INFO. According to reports from the two agents, they shared THEIR pistol with Koresh who supplied ALL the ammo for their range shooting that day.
>>>"There are those who argue that the Davidians were a peaceful, law-abiding people who at worst may have merely been violating federal firearms laws in building their arsenal of automatic weapons and explosives"<<<<
If so dangerous and criminal, WHY were the local law enforcement, Texas rangers and these two ATF agents using Koresh's range and sharing firearms with him if he was so darned dangerous?
WHY were local law enforcemnet, and the Texas Rangers bypassed completely by the Feds at Waco? This was a set-up from the word go in my opinion, based on the new information coming out.
And innocent women and children were burned alive and shot dead by our very own government it is appearing.
Be afraid. Be very afraid.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), September 08, 1999.

mumsie-excellent. best statements i've read regarding what really happened at waco.

-- dory (crtwheel@eburg.com), September 08, 1999.

Oh, wonderful, while we have the spectacle of an investigation regarding how our FBI clearly LIED TO US for six years regarding the use of devices that could have started the fire, we now have a moron simply posting old lies and claiming its the "truth". Instead of the Hitler approach -- if you get caught in one lie, tell a bigger one -- this is more like, just tell the same old lies again, repeatedly.

"Truth" = "For" ?

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), September 08, 1999.

RESIDENTS of Waco are hoping that the Oklahoma trial - and the San Diego suicide deaths - do not turn the spotlight once again on the disastrous 51-day siege of the Branch Davidian cult's headquarters four years ago. Since officers of the Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Bureau stormed the compound on February 28, 1993, the desolate site in the Texas prairie has drawn militia groups and cults opposed to the federal Government. Timothy McVeigh, the alleged Oklahoma bomber, was recorded on video prowling through the charred hulks of the compound's bunkers; the Oklahoma bomb exploded on the anniversary of the final Waco conflagration. The Mount Carmel site is now no more than three burnt-out buses and an acre of concrete slabs partly submerged in a reed-covered swamp ten miles outside Waco. However, members of the Branch Davidian cult, which has existed in the area since the 1920s, continue to feud over the rights to the land and whether they blame David Koresh, the cult's leader. In January this year, supporters of Koresh crept to the site at night and tore down a makeshift museum and memorial that had been erected by Amo Bishop Roden, a Davidian who had made her home in a trailer at the site for years, and who was fiercely critical of Koresh. A month later Ms Roden and Charles Pace, "a Branch Davidian for a quarter of a century", returned to the site to lay a marble stone in memory of the government officers who died, a move bound to provoke Koresh followers even further. In the Taylor Museum of Waco history, signs of these bitter divisions are evident in a book of comments on the Mount Carmel disaster, mainly filled with entries in huge round handwriting or in capital letters
No longer in existence since Waco, the Branch Davidians were an offshoot of the far larger and better established Seventh Day Adventists. Like the SDA, Branch Davidians believed in an imminent Second Coming but were badly weakened as an organisation when this failed to happen as predicted in 1959. They were sued by many of their own number who had bought land close to the supposed site of the Visitation. (SDA had by that time overcome the embarrassment of their own wrongly predicted apocalypse in 1843.) David Koresh, ni Vernon Howell, took over the leadership of the Davidians in 1986 after ingeniously ousting leader George Roden. (Koresh challenged Roden as to who had the greater divine power and persuaded him to exhume the body of a Davidian to see whether he could bring it back to life. He then had Roden arrested for 'corpse abuse'.) It has been suggested that Koresh suffered from the delusional 'Jerusalem Syndrome' following a pilgrimage to Jerusalem in 1985, a year before he declared himself the 'sinful Messiah'. Others believe his psychosis began earlier than that - he was the illegitimate son of a 15-year-old mother and was later abused by a stepfather. He was thrown out of the SDA in 1979 at the age of 19 for being a troublemaker. Once in charge of the Davidians, he began targeting Britain for recruitment with considerable success: 33 of the 82 followers who died at Waco were British. Koresh had also made recruitment trips to Australia and Israel prior to the tragic 50-day siege in 1993.

-- Truth (at@the.ready), September 09, 1999.

YO! so called "Truth"...
it's not anyone in the Federal realm's business what goes on in Texas concerning any alleged behavior that went on in Waco.
Ever heard of something called "States' Rights"? No? Skipped that, did ya? Keep spreading the goo but anyone with any intelligence knows what should be the constitutional limits of Federal power. Those that don't probably aren't here or don't care...

-- whatayawn (youmustbe@desparate.gov), September 09, 1999.

Portrait of a Psychopath By Richard Lacayo; Reported by Wendy Cole and and Richard Woodbury
There were occasions when David Koresh enforced discipline among his followers the hard way. One of his handpicked lieutenants would paddle the rule breakers with an oar on which were inscribed the words IT IS WRITTEN. Most of the time that wasn't necessary. In the manner of cult leaders before him, Koresh held sway largely through means that were both more subtle and more degrading. Food was rationed in unpredictable ways. Newcomers were gradually relieved of their bank accounts and personal possessions. And while the men were subjected to an uneasy celibacy. Koresh took their wives and daughters as his concubines. All of it just confirmed his power in the eyes of his flock. And for anyone who thought it odd that a holy man lived out a teenage boy's sexual fantasy, Koresh had a mangled theological rationale. He was Jesus Christ in sinful form, who because he indulged the flesh could judge mankind with insights that the first, more virtuous Messiah had lacked. Or as he put in one of his harangues to the faithful: "Now what better sinner can know a sinner than a godly sinner? Huh?" Equipped with both a creamy charm and a cold-blooded willingness to manipulate those drawn to him, Koresh was a type well known to students of cult practices: the charismatic leader with a pathological edge. He was the most spectacular example since Jim Jones, who committed suicide in 1978 with more than 900 of his followers at the People's Temple in Guyana. Like Jones, Koresh fashioned a tight-knit community that saw itself at desperate odds with the world outside. He plucked sexual partners as he pleased from among his followers and formed an elite guard of lieutenants to enforce his will. And like Jones, he led his followers to their doom. Psychologists are inclined to classify Koresh as a psychopath, always with the reminder that such people can be nothing short of enchanting on a first encounter. "The psychopath is often charming, bright, very persuasive," explains Louis West, a professor of psychiatry at the University of California at Los Angeles medical school. "He quickly wins people's trust and is uncannily adept at manipulating and conning people." David Jewell, whose former wife died in the fire, had a brief phone conversation with Koresh many years ago that left him in shock. "In 20 minutes, he took my entire Christian upbringing and put in such a tailspin, I didn't know what I believed. Once in the cult, Davidians surrendered all the material means of personal independence, like money and belongings, while Koresh seemed to have unlimited funds, much of the money apparently from his followers' nest eggs. The grounds around the compound were littered with old automobiles that the faithful cannibalized for parts to keep their clunkers running while Koresh drove a black Camaro muscle car. At lengthy sessions of biblical preaching that cult members attended twice a day, Koresh underlined his authority by impressing upon them that he alone understood the Scriptures. He changed his interpretations at will, while his unsteady flock struggled to keep up. In a tactic common to cult leaders, Koresh made food a tool for ensuring obedience. The compound diet was often insufficient, varying according to the leader's whim. Sometimes dinner was stew or chicken; at other times it might be nothing but popcorn. On their infrequent trips to Waco, cultists could be seen wolfing down packaged cheese in convenience stores. Household and dietary rules at the compound were as changeable at the theology. Koresh established strict bans on sugar and ice cream, then reversed them without explanation. He told his disciples they could buy chicken hot dogs, but exploded in anger when they brought home chicken bologna instead. Having convinced his followers that he was the messiah. Koresh went on the persuade them that because his seed was divine, only he had the right to procreate. Even as Koresh bedded their wives and daughters-some as young as 11-in his comfortable private bedroom on the second floor, the men were confined to their dormitory downstairs. Behind the mind games and psychological sadism lay the threat of physical force. In addition to the paddlings, administered in a utility area called the spanking room, offenders could be forced down into a pit of raw sewage, then not allowed to bathe. No amount of adulation seemed to satisfy Koresh, whose egomania apparently disguised an emptiness at his center. Fallenaway follower Marc Breault, who sometimes played bass in the rock bank Koresh organized at the compound, says that even practicing together was difficult because Koresh threw tantrums when he hit a wrong note in front of the others. "It's very difficult being in a band with God's messenger," says Breault. As the Davidians stockpiled guns and ammunition, Koresh's theology centered more obsessively upon the coming Apocalypse, binding Koresh and his followers in a vision of shared catastrophe in order to maintain their focus and resist the overtures of the authorities outside the compound. "Koresh would say we would have to suffer, that we were going to be persecuted and some of us would be killed and tortured," recalls David Bunds, who left the compound in 1989. As Koresh and his followers heightened the melodrama, their ties with the outside world became irretrievably broken. "The adulation of this confined group work on this charismatic leader so that he in turn spirals into greater and greater paranoia," says Murray Miron, a psychologist who advised the FBI during the standoff. "He's playing a role that his followers have cast him in." In the end, Koresh and his flock may have magnified one another's needs. He looked to them to confirm his belief that he was God's appointed one, destined for a martyr's death. They looked to him to bring their spiritual wanderings to a close. In the flames of Waco, they all may have found what they were searching for.

-- Truth (at@the.ready), September 09, 1999.

"Timothy McVeigh, the alleged Oklahoma bomber, was recorded on video prowling through the charred hulks of the compound's bunkers; the Oklahoma bomb exploded on the anniversary of the final Waco conflagration. "
And your point is? That meandering through the charred ashes conferred magical and instantaneous expertise in demolitions? I've been wondering myself how he managed that.
" continue to feud ...tore down a makeshift museum and memorial ....returned to the site to lay a marble stone in memory of the government officers who died, ....No longer in existence since Waco.... Branch Davidians believed in an imminent Second Coming ....Koresh challenged Roden as to who had the greater divine power.... exhume the body... he was the illegitimate son of a 15-year- old mother.... 33 of the 82 followers who died at Waco were British.....BLAH BLAH BLAH...Blah blah...." If we were studying and debating the anatomy of a cult, this might be quite fascinating. You have still failed to prove that these people were guilty of criminal behavior that even remotely justified the criminal and violent behavior of the representatives of our government. Therefore, what does this have to do with the price of tea in China? For someone who proclaims the lofty name of Truth, you certainly ignore many valid questions, and seem quite comfortable with diversions and disinformation instead.
Oh brother, now I read your last posting. Truth, you are just demonstrating that you are hung up with trying to prove David Koresh wasn't a nice guy. Maybe so. I can't see myself ever joining his post-mortem fan club . I never liked him (based on the assumption that even a percentage of these accusations were true, after all, dead men cannot defend themselves) and I have never agreed with any of the theology that it is claimed he preached. I don't like what I "consider" cults. You don't like him, or his religious beliefs. Think they are wrong and whacky. Okay. SO WHAT?? Now, what if someone in law enforcement believes differently than you, and takes a big dislike to you? Does that give them the "right" to take any kind of official action at all against you? Or would you consider that an abuse of power? Or is it impossible for a law enforcement official to do something wrong or make a mistake? I don't care what you report after the fact that he 'said' or MAY have done in the future.... SHOW ME THE MONEY!! Establish the hard cold evidence of what the Davidians DID criminally that JUSTIFIED THE GOVERNMENT'S ACTIONS. If there had been a later investigation to determine child abuse, and evidence was found, and every child was removed on the basis of REAL EVIDENCE, then I would have cheered loudly! If I had befriended a Davidian and heard what these reporters now purport to be true, I would have done my best to persuade them to leave. Let's not talk oranges and apples.
Explain why the Feds usurped the jurisdiction of the State of Texas. And then explain why in the name of protecting children, they 'carelessly' (?) or 'negligently' (?) and grotesquely killed the same aforesaid children. You don't want 'Truth'. You want to feel okay about something horrible because you don't like that nasty sick David Koresh, and it's all his fault. That sounds whiney and irrational. That is exactly why we have the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the right to be innocent until proven guilty. No matter how much you rant and rave about that sick nasty Koresh, there are still some grave realities that do translate into hard evidence (versus petulant emotions) that must be examined and answered for. We must not harden our hearts and close our ears to the sound of the blood of those innocents crying out!

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 09, 1999.

Dear Mr. Truth,
Since you were the Director of the BATF during the Waco massacre, you must be Stephen E. Higgins! You're in big trouble, aren't you? No wonder you are so desperate to make a strawman of David Koresh and his wicked ways. Can you spell Posse Comitatus?
---------------------------------
The pre-raid military assistance in Waco was provided through active duty and National Guard counterdrug units based on an alleged drug nexus. Much of the post-raid military assistance to the FBI and ATF also came from counterdrug units and funds. Central to understanding how the military became involved in the Waco matter is an understanding of how ATF's initial request for military assistance, based on alleged drug involvement, progressed.
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The chronology of ATF's request for military assistance provides insight into how early ATF wanted military assistance... As early as November 1992, ATF agents were discussing the need for military support with Lt. Col. Lon Walker, the Defense Department representative to ATF.
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By December 1992 (almost 3 months before the raid), ATF agents were requesting Close Quarters Combat/Close Quarters Battle (CQB) training by U.S. Army Special Forces soldiers for ATF agents.
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On December 4, 1992, several ATF Special Agents, including the SAC's of the Dallas and Houston ATF offices, met at Houston's ATF field office for the first time to discuss the Waco investigation. In attendance were SAC Phillip J. Chojnacki; SAC Ted Royster; Assistant Special Agent in Charge James Cavanaugh; Resident Agent in Charge Earl K. Dunagan; Special Agents Aguilera, Lewis, Petrilli, Buford, K. Lattimer, Williams, Carter, and John Henry. Also present at that meeting was Lt. Col. Lon Walker, the Defense Department representative to ATF. Lt. Col. Walker's notes of the meeting reveal that he explained to those present ``that the military probably could provide a great deal of support and [that he] suggested things like aerial overflight thermal photography.''
------------------------------------------------------------------
On December 11, 1992, Special Agent Jose G. Viegra, the Resident in Charge (RAC) of the Austin, TX ATF Office, met with representatives for the Texas Governor's Office about the role of the military in any potential ATF action involving the Davidians. Representatives of the Texas Governor's Office present at the meeting were William R. Enney, Texas State Interagency Coordinator and his assistant Lieutenant Susan M. Justice, Assistant Interagency Coordinator of the National Guard Counterdrug Support Program.
----------------------------------------------
This meeting was requested by ATF to discuss specifically what types of military assistance were available to the ATF for its raid on the Branch Davidian residence in Waco, TX. During the meeting, Special Agent Viegra was told that military assistance through Operation Alliance would not be available unless there was a ``drug nexus.'' That meeting constituted the second time in 8 days that ATF agents inquiring about military assistance were told of a drug nexus prerequisite. At the December 11, 1992, meeting, Enney asked the ATF agents to determine whether a drug nexus did in fact exist.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Two days later, Special Agent Aguilera informed Lt. Col. Walker on December 16, 1992, that he received a facsimile from Mark Breault in Australia suggesting the existence of a methamphetamine lab at the Branch Davidian residence. Mr. Breault was a former Branch Davidian who left the group on bad terms, and exhibited strong personal animosity toward Koresh and several of the Davidians.
--------------------------------------------
The following day, December 17, 1992, SAC Phillip Chojnacki held a meeting in his office with Special Agent Ivan Kallister, Special Agent Davey Aguilera, and Lt. Col. Walker regarding the Waco investigation. According to ATF, Lt. Col. Walker told SAC Chojnacki during the meeting that the Defense Department could provide non- reimbursable military support if there is a ``suspicion of drug activity.'' Aguilera was subsequently instructed to ``actively pursue information from his informants about a drug nexus.'' Additionally, ATF Intelligence Research Specialist Sandy Betterton searched criminal records to determine if Branch Davidians had ``some'' prior drug offenses. It later was determined that only one Branch Davidian had a prior narcotics conviction.
--------------------------------------------------
January 6, 1993 was the first National Guard overflight of the Branch Davidian residence and their auto body shop, called the ``Mag Bag.'' This overflight was conducted by the Texas National Guard Counterdrug unit in a UC-26 counterdrug aircraft. The Texas National Guard conducted five more reconnaissance/surveillance overflights over the Branch Davidian property from February 3, 1993, to February 25, 1993. These overflights were conducted to ``search for armed guards and drug manufacturing facilities.''
-------------------------------------------
On the same day as the first National Guard overflight, January 6, 1993, Richard Garner, Chief of Special Operations Division of ATF, drafted another request on ATF Headquarters letterhead directly to Colonel Judith Browning, Director of Plans and Support, of the Office of the Department of Defense Coordinator for Drug Enforcement Policy and Support. ATF requested the loan of various office equipment, a refrigerator, cots and sleeping bags to be made available on January 11, 1993. The letter states that the ATF was investigating violations of ``firearms and drug laws'' and requested the equipment as ``part of Defense Department support for counterdrug effort.''
------------------------------------------------------
Within a week after Col. Browning's response, Garner sent a further request to Major Victor Bucowsky, the Officer-in-Charge of the Regional Logistics Support Office requesting an MOUT (Military Operations on Urbanized Training) site for Special Response Team training, driver training and maintenance support for Bradley fighting vehicles, seven Bradley fighting vehicles, and on-call support in the event a siege occurred. This was the largest request for assistance in Regional Logistics Support Office's history and eventually had to be supplied by Texas National Guard because the Regional Logistics Support Office was unable to handle a law enforcement request of such magnitude.
-------------------------------------------
On February 2, 1993, Operation Alliance made a request to the Commanding General of JTF-6 for the use of Special Forces personnel assigned to his organization. Lt. Col. Philip W. Lindley, the U.S. Army Special Forces Command Staff Judge Advocate, was notified of this request.
----------------------------------
Six surveillance overflights were conducted by counterdrug National Guard units. Aerial photography missions by the Texas National Guard began on January 6, 1993. The January 6 missions and subsequent missions on February 3, 18, and 25, 1993, were taken by a Texas National Guard Counterdrug UC-26 aircraft. On January 14, 1993, aerial photographs were taken by the Alabama National Guard. And, on February 6, 1993, the Texas National Guard provided infrared video (FLIR) and aerial photography in a Counterdrug UC-26 aircraft.
-------------------------------------------------
ATF's request for training of ATF agents by Special Forces soldiers went through several alterations before the actual training took place. Although ATF initially requested Bradley fighting vehicles, SOT/CQB training, on-site medical evacuation assistance and planning assistance, legal restrictions caused the ATF request to be scaled down. A Special Forces Rapid Support Unit, assigned to Operation Alliance, trained ATF on 25-27 February 1993, in company-level tactical C2, Medical Evacuation training, IV ABC's, and assistance with Range and MOUT sites.
------------------------------------------------
For the February 28 raid, the Texas National Guard supplied three helicopters and 10 counterdrug personnel. When ATF requested National Guard assistance, their stated mission to the National Guard was to use the helicopters as a command and control platform during the raid, and to transport personnel and evidence after the area was secured. Only when the National Guard team arrived at Fort Hood for the pre-raid training, less than 24 hours before the raid, did ATF agents inform the National Guard personnel that the helicopters would be used as an aerial diversion during the raid itself. ATF had even assigned one of the National Guard counterdrug soldiers to hang from a monkey sling outside the helicopter to film the raid. The soldier was in that position when the helicopters took incoming fire. Although all of the three helicopters sustained damage from weapons fire, none of the National Guard crews or ATF personnel aboard were injured. Since such direct involvement is prohibited by National Guard Bureau regulations and placed National Guard personnel in imminent danger, it is unclear why the National Guard consented to ATF's ``last-minute'' changes.
------------------------------------------------------
As referred to earlier, a Rapid Support Unit (RSU) from Third Company, Third Division, Special Forces Group was deployed on a regular rotation to JTF-6 for counterdrug missions. When the original ATF request was assigned to this RSU team, Maj. Ballard, the Special Operations Representative at JTF-6, telephoned Special Operation Command at Fort Bragg and expressed his concern with the ATF training mission to Mr. Crain, a civilian employee at Special Operations Command.
--------------------------------------
Upon hearing the details of the original request, Mr. Crain also became concerned and immediately notified Lt. Col. Lindley. Lt. Col. Lindley subsequently spoke with Maj. Petree, the Special Forces Rapid Support Unit Commander, who also expressed similar concerns about the scope of the mission.
--------------------------------
According to Lt. Col. Lindley, the JTF-6 informed him that the law enforcement action was a raid on a methamphetamine lab. Having been involved in law enforcement actions involving methamphetamine labs as a civilian, Lt. Col. Lindley was aware of concerns with the physical characteristics of methamphetamine production and the dangers in the chemicals, as well as ammunition considerations given the explosive nature of methamphetamine labs. Contamination of soldiers' clothing by chemicals used in the production of methamphetamines would involve those soldiers in the collection of physical evidence. Again, such direct involvement would violate the Posse Comitatus Act.
-------------------------------------------------
Upon completing his discussions with the Special Operations personnel, Lt. Col. Lindley directly contacted JTF-6 personnel to express his concerns about the mission. When Lt. Col. Lindley informed JTF-6 personnel that, from his initial analysis of the information presented, the request was impermissible as proposed, he received a hostile response from Lt. Col. Rayburn, the JTF-6 Legal Advisor. After his conversation with JTF-6 personnel, Lt. Col. Lindley began a memorandum for record detailing the chronology of events and conversations as they took place. JTF-6, not Lt. Col. Lindley, subsequently provided the legal review of the request.
-------------------------------------------------
Documents provided by the Treasury Department show that in the months following the tragic end of the Branch Davidian siege, JTF-6 and Operation Alliance were actively promoting their services to ATF. This was occurring even as senior military officials expressed concern that ATF misrepresented the required drug nexus in order to obtain military assistance.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Further evidence suggesting a serious problem in the military's approval of assistance to ATF in this case involves ATF agents' reactions to the Bureau's own claim that a methamphetamine lab existed in the Branch Davidian residence. The alleged presence of a methamphetamine lab was the basis for which the Special Forces assistance provided to ATF. After Special Forces legal advisors concerns' with the proposed training and ATF's alleged drug nexus, Maj. Petree, the Commander of Special Forces Rapid Support Unit which was assigned to provide ATF support, ordered two of his Special Forces medics to research and write a paper on methamphetamine labs for ATF. These Special Forces medics, who are highly skilled military personnel with far more advanced training than a typical civilian paramedic, spent 3 to 4 days researching and writing a memorandum on methamphetamine labs for ATF.
-------------------------------------------------
There is no doubt that a central purpose of the memorandum on methamphetamine labs was to inform the ATF of the potential dangers and special precautions required when dealing with an active methamphetamine lab. Yet, when Maj. Petree presented the paper to ATF agents during the February 4-5, 1993, Houston meeting, these agents openly chose to ignore this information in front of the soldiers who prepared the document. In fact, the ATF agents' dismissal of such vital information was so obvious that these agents' reactions alone made to clear that the ATF believed that a methamphetamine lab did not exist.
----------------------------------------------
The presence of the Special Forces paper alone would provide evidence to produce charges that: (1) Special Forces trainers were deficient in their training of ATF in failing to ensure ATF took proper precautions; (2) Special Forces trainers knew from ATF's failure to incorporate proper precautions that no methamphetamine lab existed and thus they inappropriately provided military assistance in a non- counterdrug law enforcement operation. Neither of these potential charges is flattering to JTF-6, and especially to Maj. Petree, who presented the paper to ATF and who commanded the Special Forces units which trained ATF.
-----------------------------------
Soldiers are taught that they should always go through their chain of command to address a problem. Only under significant circumstances are soldiers encouraged to go outside their chain of command for assistance. The Special Forces soldiers assigned to assist ATF, apparently had been properly trained to go outside their chain of command, which at the time was at JTF-6, by contacting their legal advisor at Special Operations Command, (USAFC) if they had concerns about a mission. The Special Forces soldiers assigned the ATF mission did just that. Maj. Ballard, the Special Operations Representative at Operation Alliance, contacted Mr. Crain at Special Operations Command. Crain then informed Lt. Col. Lindley of their concerns. It was Lt. Col. Lindley, the legal advisor of the Special Operation Command, who raised the legal concerns with JTF-6. Lt. Col. Lindley received a hostile response from Lt. Col. Rayburn, the JTF-6 legal advisor who accused him of attempting to ``undermine'' and ``undercut'' JTF-6's mission. Lt. Col. Lindley was also told that he could consider Lt. Col. Rayburn's words a personal attack. Subsequent to Lt. Col. Lindley's telephone conversation with Lt. Col. Rayburn, these concerns were raised with the Commanding Generals of both Special Operations Command and JTF-6 and eventually reached the Office of the Secretary of Defense.
--------------------------------------------------
ATF alleged to the military that it had evidence of an ``active methamphetamine lab'' on the premises of the Davidians' residence. Unlike general narcotics seizures, clandestine labs, by their very nature, ``present a unique series of hazards and risks to law enforcement personnel.'' Therefore, an allegation of an active methamphetamine lab should alarm any law enforcement official, because of the extreme safety and health dangers involved.
-------------------------------------------------------
1990, Stephen E. Higgins, the Director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, testified before the Subcommittee on the Treasury, Postal Service, and General Government Appropriations of the Committee on Appropriations. In written responses to questions from subcommittee members, Higgins acknowledged: [W]e [at the ATF] are aware of the considerable hazards presented by the careless storage of chemicals and the sensitivity of the explosive mixtures at these [clandestine methamphetamine] laboratories.
--------------------------------------------
Even so, in response to the subcommittees' inquiries, ATF has acknowledged that no ``ATF agent who was present on February 28, 1993, . . . had received specific, specialized training in investigating methamphetamine laboratories.'' In reviewing videotapes of the Fort Hood training, subcommittee investigators also found no discussion of the potential safety and health hazards that the suspected active methamphetamine lab would present. In other words, ATF agents participating in the raid had little or no notice of the dangers they might have forced in the active methamphetamine labs.
-------------------------------------------
ATF policy on the use of ``flash bang'' diversionary devices states, ``Drug laboratories or other explosive environments may be so hazardous as to preclude the use of [flash bang] devices.'' and ``If [a flash bang] lands on a combustible material a fire is not only possible but likely, (laundry, newspaper, clothing, etc.).'' [Page 66 of the ATF training manual on the use of diversionary devices] no mention of the alleged presence of a methamphetamine lab is mentioned in ATF's request to the Chief of Special Operations Division for the use of flash bangs during the raid. [Request to use flash bangs, dated February 5, 1993, Treasury Documents 008213-14].
----------------------------------------
There are numerous examples of where ATF indicated to the military there was an ``active methamphetamine lab'' and ``deliveries of precursor chemicals.'' A few are the February 17, 1993, Operations Order, and the February 2, 1993, letter from Operation Alliance to the Adjutant General of the Texas National Guard counterdrug unit informing them that ATF had requested National Guard assistance in serving a Federal search warrant ``to a dangerous, extremist organization believed to be producing methamphetamine.'' Treasury Documents T005551. See also Defense Documents D-581.
------------------------------------------
On February 2, 1993, ATF Special Agents Pali and Phil Lewis met with representatives of the JTF-6, Texas National Guard and Operation Alliance. Lewis mentioned the delivery of precursor chemicals to the residence. On February 4, 1993, ATF Special Agents Lewis, Pali, and ATF Special Agent Chuck Sarabyn met with representatives from JTF-6 and the Texas National Guard to discuss evidence of a possible drug nexus. Attendees recall Sarabyn showing documents detailing the delivery of precursor chemicals to the residence. However, Treasury has been unable to find those documents. Letter from Department of Treasury to the subcommittees (January 26, 1996) (responding to the subcommittees' request for information on November 16, 1995.)
---------------------------------------------------
Treasury documents outlining the series of meetings between military, Texas National Guard, and ATF officials, describe a February 4, 1993, meeting held at the SAC/Houston office regarding military support. In attendance were Special Agent Lewis; Special Agent Sarabyn; Lt. Col. Bertholf; Special Agent Pali, ATF coordinator to Operation Alliance; William Enney, Texas State Interagency Coordinator; and Maj. Lenn Lannaham, JTF-6 Liaison. During the meeting, Sarabyn offered ATF documents including a list of methamphetamine precursor chemicals, in support of the drug nexus. As a result of the meeting, military support of the Branch Davidian investigation continued.
--------------------------------------------------------
According to General Pickler's testimony before the subcommittees, Lt. Col. Berthal was told at the February 4, 1993 meeting in Houston that precursor chemicals were discussed as one of the elements of proof proffered by ATF that an active methamphetamine lab existed and those chemicals may have been on site at the Branch Davidian residence. General Pickler testified that the ATF representative, while giving a background briefing as to why ATF had targeted the Davidians, indicated that UPS or shipping documents ATF was tracking included a great deal of precursor chemicals consistent with the production of illegal drugs. However, General Pickler also testified that precursor chemicals were discussed in the context of the possibility of a delivery of those kinds of chemicals much earlier than 1993, but he is not exactly certain which precursor chemicals were there.
-----------------------------------------------------
ATF failed to address the issue of an active methamphetamine laboratory into raid planning Undermining ATF's claim that a methamphetamine lab existed at the Branch Davidian residence, is the fact that briefing papers which went up to ATF Headquarters, status reports and other requests failed to mention the existence of a methamphetamine lab at the planned raid site or suspected illegal narcotics production. A review of the January 5, 1993, briefing paper sent to ATF's Washington, DC. Headquarters reveals that no mention of the subject of drugs or military involvement even though senior ATF officials at headquarters were signing off on requests for military assistance under the guise of a counter-narcotics operation. Treasury documents indicate that this briefing paper was forwarded to the Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Enforcement after review by the ATF Director and his staff. The forwarding of this type of briefing paper was the normal procedure the ATF Director used to notify Treasury of major on-going cases.
----------------------------------------------------
In addition to the January 5 briefing paper, monthly status reports were prepared by Aguilera, reviewed by Dunagan, the Assistant Resident Agent in Charge of the Austin, TX office and approved by Chojnacki, the Special Agent in Charge of the Austin, TX office who then forwarded the reports to the Special Agent in Charge of the Houston Office. Although these reports being provided over a 9 month period and almost daily during the weeks leading up to the raid, they never mention the case as a counter-narcotics investigation or any military involvement. As late as February 5, 1993, Chojnacki requested the use of flash bangs and failed to mention the possible existence of an ``active methamphetamine lab,'' even though ATF policy states that drug laboratories or other explosive environments may be so hazardous as to preclude the use of flash bangs. In fact, the only consistent mention of any drug activity by Branch Davidians in any of the ATF Waco documents on Waco is in requests for military assistance which required drug activity to justify military intervention and assistance. -----------------------------------------------

-- (Liar!!@...), September 09, 1999.

"Koresh's character and/or possible crimes are not the issue".
Bullshit. Koresh and his followers were the the cause. The ATF aided. Both were responsible for the deaths of innocent children.

-- bbbb (bb@bb.com), September 09, 1999.

Ah, yes, what is Truth? Tell us, Nazi-man, why the entire crime scene was bulldozed after the fire? Tell us why the original search warrant detailed charges of sex abuse completely beyond ATF jurisdiction? Tell us why the local sherrif said he had NO evidence those charges were true. Tell us why Kristi Jewel's mother and grandmother both felt their daughter was lying about alledged sex abuse. Tell us why a Texas court acquitted all surviving Davidians of charges of murder. Tell us, Nazi-man, why CS gas was pumped into an unventilated area where children were living. Why didn't you simply use Zyklon-B, like at Auschwitz? Tell us, lying Nazi, why tapes of rabbits being slaughtered where played at night, along with other psychological warfare tactics. Tell us, lying Nazi, why ATF told Special Forces command that there was a drug lab on the grounds, a charge known to be a lie. Tell us why Janet Reno testified before congress that they had no knowledge of sexual abuse at the compound. And tell us why the FBI lied about the use of incendiary devices for six years, including lying to Congress. Tell us these things, Nazi-man, and then we'll talk about what Truth is. But you will be unable to explain any of these things, because you are a pathological liar, serving a President who is a pathological liar. It is people like you who bring shame on us all with your lies and your murders. Rot in hell.

-- Spidey (in@jam.yuh), September 09, 1999.

Shortly after the artical came out I was told by a Pierce County sheriff that I was considered a possiable subject to investigate by the local ATF. The sheriff happened to be a good friend and told them I was an ok guy and they backed off.
I havent written to paper sence. I am afraid to!
Willie
-- William Easley (ge@wa.net), September 08, 1999.
What are you afraid of Willie? Why would you be afraid to voice your opinion? Are you a criminal? Are you breaking any laws? What are you hiding? Why, if you feel strongly enough about a subject, would you vountarily silence a voice (yours) speaking out? You have now become part of the problem, rather than part of the solution. To allow fear to silence your voice is a terrible thing, that an honest citizen of my country would recoil from expressing legitimate opinions about any subject is in itself frightening. Please overcome your fear, and take part in the future of the Republic.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), September 09, 1999.

I get the strong feeling that we are all being played like a piano.
Lots of character assassination of Koresh (totally irrelevant in discussing the legality of what happened there). Bringing up Jonestown, Oklahoma City, and Heaven's Gate (which SHOULD be totally irrelevant in discussing the legality of what happened at WACO). Refusal to answer questions such as why evidence was destroyed and why the gov't lied for 6 years.
This from an anonymous poster who claims he was there but only posts old info, no inside details.
Why? There was a purpose here, but it certainly wasn't "truth". We are being deliberately stirred up. Links are being made between cults, suicide, "preppers"... and Y2K. Why?
Why DID "Touched By An Angel" do a show about a cult that agrees to commit suicide before Y2K? It certainly wasn't based on any factual evidence. "Touched" is very much a "message" show... what was the message here?
Y2K "preppers" (is that some gov't term for us?) are NOT suicidal. My gawd we are willing to consider eating TVP, MRE's and SPAM rather than perish... isn't that about as far from suicidal as you can get?
Are alibis being laid down to justify gov't actions after rollover? The way we were told before the Waco incineration that everyone in there was suicidal. (yup.. they were so crazy suicidal that they cut off their own heads and arms).
The stories of WACO, and Jonestown, and Heaven's Gate are fascinating. They are CERTAINLY NOT the stories of suicidal religious groups though. And neither is Y2K.
Y2K is a technological problem. It is not solved. There are 114 days left. 67 Federal days. 16 weeks.

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), September 09, 1999.

ATF "We are innocent!"
My father, at the time a SWAT TEAM was formed in Burlingame, CA. "Why are they forming a paramilitary force here in Burlingame? We fought WWll to get rid of this sort of thing. They're like a bunch of Nazis"

-- freeman (freeman@cali.com), September 09, 1999.

ROTFLMAO. Gotta tell ya 'truth'.....that "Portrait of a Psychopath" you just posted, reminds me an awful lot of a certain sex-crazed, power-hungry saxaphone player we have all grown to despise and fear. Too funny.
The psycho with a little red button. LOL

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), September 09, 1999.

bbbb.....
In your short posting the basic truth surrounding Waco has been laid out. To Spidey and others....go back to the start of this thread and read the first and second paragraphs. Reading comprehension is required. Will Senator Danforth find the truth and can we trust him?

-- Truth (at@the.ready), September 09, 1999.

The 'truth' has already been discovered. All that's left to witness now, will be the brilliantly choreographed government, "Waco Two- Step".
"Live From Washington D.C. Featuring The Original Cast As Well As Several New And Rising Talents"

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), September 09, 1999.

The truth is obvious. The government incinerated the whole compound. Everybody knows this. Your spin isn't working and you haven't fooled us. You've lost, got it? You were never there and you are lying. Why do you continue to waste your time with your obvious lies? Do you think we will ever believe you? We won't. We know the truth and you're never going to change that, so deal with it.

-- (we@know.the.truth), September 09, 1999.

'Truth', I hope you will be satisfied when they come for you at 4 o'clock some cold morning. Paranoia ? Can't happen here ? Check out Solzhenitsyn's well-known quote below. So you were a powerful guy huh ? Alright, if you want a more personal take on your own likely fate, read Koestler's classic Darkness at Noon. If your literacy skills aren't up to reading Solzhenitsyn or Koestler, well, you can always just scream back "tinfoil!". Yeah - 4 legs good, 2 legs baaad.
How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things have been like if every (Soviet) Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or, if during periods of mass arrests people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. . . . the Organs (police) would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers . . . and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed (Communists) machine would have ground to a halt.

-- Count Vronsky (vronsky@anna.com), September 09, 1999.

Linda: "...we are willing to consider eating TVP, MRE's and SPAM rather than perish... isn't that about as far from suicidal as you can get?"
Thanks for the laugh to start my day!

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 09, 1999.

Truth (what a perverse choice of handle you have),
You are the one who has chosen to be a public apologist for Steve Higgins, director of ATF, and it is you who presented his twisted, self-serving, lying manifesto as reason why we should believe him. Therefore, it is incumbent upon you to read and respond to the facts and evidence outlined in my previous post.
The facts clearly show that ATF, in deliberate violation of numerous federal and state laws, fabricated the deception of a "drug nexus" at Waco in order to illegaly procure the involvement of not one, but two National Guard units (Texas and Alabama). Further, the ATF is on record (read the above again, Mr. Truth) as having falsified and obfuscated material facts regarding the non-existance of a methamphetamine lab for the sole purpose of procuring U.S. military training, supplies, equipment and military personnel.
The facts conclusively prove that ATF knew it was illegal for the U.S. military to be involved in this operation unless there was a "drug nexus" The facts conclusively prove that ATF knew beyond any reasonable doubt that no such "drug nexus" existed at Waco. The facts also suggest that the military leadership and Special Forces commanders had more than sufficient reason to know that they were being lied to by the ATF, yet continued their involvement in this tragedy.
Either refute these facts with equivalent evidence to the contrary, or acknowledge that you are a propagandist. You serve your corrupt masters well in advancing an emotional argument (about the evils and sins of the Davidians)when a legal and factual defense cannot be made on their behalf.

-- (Liar!!@...), September 09, 1999.

Relevant... you decide:
Clinton Makes Gun Buyback OfferThursday September 9 11:51 AM ET
Clinton Makes Gun Buyback Offer By ANNE GEARAN Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) - A new $15 million federal gun buyback plan will get guns off the streets and may save children's lives, President Clinton said today.
The program will give local police departments up to $500,000 to buy guns in and around public housing projects for a ``suggested price'' of $50. The guns will be destroyed, the White House said.
Clinton twice recited this statistic to a White House audience of mayors and police chiefs: American children under 15 are nine times more likely to die by accidental shooting than children in the other 25 industrialized nations combined.
``Every gun turned in through a buyback program means potentially one less tragedy,'' Clinton said.
Clinton, accompanied by Attorney General Janet Reno and other Cabinet officials, also announced $147 million in federal community policing grants to help hire 1,600 new police officers nationwide.
Clinton also urged Congress to pass laws to restrict gun sales at flea market-style gun shows, stop imports of some kinds of high- capacity ammunition clips and require childproof locks on guns.
The Clinton administration calls those initiatives modest, commonsense ideas, and note that they have broad support from police and local officials.
``We have heard from our citizens and they want action. Congress must respond,'' said Denver Mayor Wellington Webb as he introduced Clinton.
The White House also released reports today that Clinton says show the effectiveness of administration anti-crime efforts. An update on the Brady gun control law's ``instant check'' system, which began last November, claims that federal authorities have stopped an estimated 700,000 illegal gun sales.
The administration calculates that the $15 million buyback program should bring in close to 300,000 guns. The money will go to individual public housing authorities, which will work out the buyback plans with local police, the White House said.
The administration will suggest that housing authorities hand out gift certificates for goods or services rather than cash, the White House said.
The buyback plan is modeled on local programs in cities such as Washington and New York.
The District of Columbia bought 2,306 guns during an experimental two- day offer last month. That no-questions-asked program took in guns from across the city, not only from neighborhoods near housing projects.
As with the Washington program, the national buyback offer would not include amnesty for any crimes committed with the guns. District of Columbia police are running ballistics tests on the gun haul now, and will try to match guns to crimes and crimes to criminals.
Andrew Cuomo, secretary of housing and urban development, said the national buyback program will give flexibility to mayors to tailor the program to specific needs.
The Brady law and other gun-control laws are having success in keeping new guns out of the hands of those who shouldn't have them, Cuomo said on ABC's ``Good Morning America.''
``We have 200 million guns in this country. We have to reduce that number,'' Cuomo said. Buying back the guns - people who have guns in the home who don't want them ... is one way to do it.''

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), September 09, 1999.

"Bullshit. Koresh and his followers were the the cause. The ATF aided. Both were responsible for the deaths of innocent children."
Okay...put your critical thinking caps on. If Koresh was a whacky cultist and thereby bore a certain aspect of responsibility, we combat that how?
If the representatives of Government/Law twist and break the law, murder people, then lie and destroy evidence, we combat that how?
To answer number one, articles could be good (if their main purpose is to enlighten with the purpose of helping people not to fall into cults, versus getting the government off the hook), churches teaching classes on basic doctrines of Christianity so that people are not duped by those who would twist Scripture could be good also, etc.
Now you answer number two please.

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 09, 1999.

More food for thought...
Asked whom he considered to be his "enemies," the president shot back immediately and abruptly: "My only enemy is right-wing religious fundamentalism."
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_btl/19990909_xcbtl_wars_and_p.sht ml

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 09, 1999.

"cowering in churches waiting for the world to end....determined to buy desert land and hoard gold, bullets and Skoal in their pickup trucks."
William Jefferson Clinton.....Fifth Millennium Evening at the Whitehouse
Anyone preparing for Y2K that somehow 'missed' President Clinton's MESSAGE, hadn't better slap themselves and come to the party.
Thanks Mumsie.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), September 09, 1999.

Correction: "had better".
(Too many chores, too many bells to ring, too little time!!)

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), September 09, 1999.

Will, drop me a line sometime so we can talk farmer lady talk!

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 09, 1999.

Will, do you still have the original link/source for Clinton's 'Skoal' remarks? Thanks!

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 09, 1999.

Facts, facts, and more facts. To get the big picture you must have all of your facts in focus. Sen. Danforth will be dealing in facts, will you?
In two of Koresh's final writings, the text of which TIME has obtained, the cult leader spoke in a ranting voice of God:
April 10: I OFFER TO YOU MY WISDOM, I OFFER TO YOU MY sealed secrets. How dare you turn away. My invitations of mercyWho are you fighting against? The law is Mine, the Truth is MineI AM your God and you will bow under my feetI AM your life & your death. I AM the Spirit of the prophets and the Author of their testimonies. Look and see, you fools, you will not proceed much further. Do you think you have power to stop My will?My seven thunders are to be revealedDo you want me to laugh at your pending torments? Do you want Me to pull the heavens back and show you My anger?!Fear Me, for I have you in My snareI forewarn you, the Lake Waco area of Old Mount Carmel will be terribly shaken. The waters of the lake will be emptied through the broken dam.
April 11: My hand made heaven and earth. My hand also shall bring it to the endYour sins are more than you can bear. Show mercy and kindness and you shall receive [sic] mercy and kindnessYou have a chance to learn My Salvation. Do not find yourselves to be fighting against MePlease listen and show mercy and learn of the marriage of the Lamb. Why will you be lost? [signed] Yahweh Koresh
He loves God and he loves women. He has total control over the lives of his followers who believe his message: the Apocalypse is nigh. Young girls and old women, innocent and worldly, virginal and fecund. Within the walls of the kingdom on the flat plains of Texas, David Koresh knew them all-in the Biblical sense, former followers say. He began a decade ago with Lois Roden. She was 67 and the widowed leader of the Branch Davidians when the 23-year old Koresh, still called by his birth name of Vernon Howell, arrived at the Mount Carmel compound. He confessed to the group that he worried about his excessive masturbation. Ex-members say Roden felt sorry for him and they became lovers, even tried to have a child. Koresh now disavows the union, saying she was as ugly as Medusa. His next lover was at least a little bit closer to his own age. In 1984, he married Rachel Jones, the 14-year old daughter of two followers; she bore him a son, Cyrus, and a daughter, Star. Koresh claimed to be monogamous for two entire years. But then, followers say, God told him to build a new House of David, one with many wives, just as King David had. Many wives, like Robyn Bunds, then 17, and later, her mother, Jeannine, 50. Robyn Bunds says Koresh fathered her 4-year old son, Shaun. According to the Waco Tribune-Herald, she fled when Koresh took up with her mother. Both women now live in California. As the years passed, the "wives" got younger and younger. Michelle Jones, 12, was his wife Rachel's little sister and, an ex-follower says, Koresh's special favorite. At least a dozen other nubile members of the flock succumbed; they wore Star of David pendants, a sign that they had been chosen. When the ex-husband of one Branch Davidian heard that his 10-year old daughter was wearing the star, he sued for custody and, after winning, whisked her away to his home in Michigan, according to the Waco paper. Many of the girls' parents were Koresh's followers; they gave their blessings because "they believed in his message," says Robyn Bunds's brother David. All in the name of God, of course. Koresh often preached from the 45th Psalm, where it is written that the king's head is anointed with the "oil of gladness." Koresh's unique analysis: the oil refers to vaginal secretions. During intercourse, his "wives" anoint the head of their king's penis. It sounds like crazy talk now. Who could have believed it? But there they were, dozens of devotees, lured to a lonesome place on the Texas prairie by the promise of salvation. They had traveled from all over the country and beyond-Hawaii, Britain, Australia Koresh had recruited many of his forays around the globe in search of new blood. Some turned all their worldly goods over to him. In several cases, that amounted to hundreds of thousands of dollars. They were holed up in the fortress with the man who claimed to both a prophet king and a warrior angel with the keys to heaven. Maybe even the Messiah. He was a ninth-grade dropout, but his knowledge of the Scriptures was so formidable it truly seemed superhuman. And he could talk for hours and hours and hours, from early morning to well past midnight, while they listened until they could hear no more, not moving, not eating, not sleeping. "They lived in constant fear," says Rick Ross, a deprogrammer who counseled a former Branch Davidian. "He developed a crisis mentality, constantly talking about the end of the world, telling them they always had to be ready for the aggressors who would come from without the walls to destroy them." They were ready for Armageddon, and when federal agents stormed their fortress, it must have seemed as though the Last Days had begun. This wasn't what the Creator had in mind. The Branch Davidians are an offshoot of a schism of Seventh-day Adventist Church. Their ancestors are the Davidian Seventh-day Adventists, founded in the 1930s by Victor Houteff, a Bulgarian emigre and prominent Los Angeles area Adventist, who bolted to Texas when a book he had written upset church officials. Houteff believed that the Adventists had become lax. "He believed that the return of Christ was imminent but that it could not happen until there was a purer church that could receive Christ," says Bill Pitts, a Baylor University religion professor who has studied the sect. Houteff attracted scores of members to his semicommunal farm in Waco, but the organization began to fall apart a few years after his death in 1955. His widow, Florence, took over the helm and moved the group to the current. In 1959, Pitts says, she proclaimed that the Kingdom of God would arrive on Easter Day. Hundreds of followers across the country sold everything, quit their jobs and made the trip to Waco for the big event. They were looking for some sign that the kingdom would be coming-a war in the Mideast or some other signal of cataclysm. Alas, the Lord didn't come and the failed prophecy shook the Davidians to the core. "After two or three weeks," says Pitts, "they experienced what is called 'The Great Disappointment'." Although a core group of about 50 stayed in Waco after this sad episode, most of the Davidians moved on. A power struggle ensued. The group splintered and eventually a man named Ben Roden rose up and declared himself the leader of a new group, the Branch Davidians. Roden ruled until he died in 1978 and was succeeded by his wife, Lois. Enter Vernon Wayne Howell. A would-be rock musician, he was the illegitimate son of Bonnie Haldeman. Born in Houston, he grew up in Dallas where he was raised as an Adventist. "He was a very bright little boy in lots of ways," says his maternal grandmother, Earline Clark of Chandler, Texas, "but when he started school, he was dyslexic." He went to a special school for a year or so, but never did well. By the ninth grade, he had dropped out. Despite these difficulties, he studied the Bible and played the guitar, Clark says. At 18 he moved to Tyler, Texas, not far from Chandler, where he joined the Adventist Church. But his grandmother says local church leaders didn't care for his long hair and casual dress. Clarks says Howell became disillusioned with the Tyler church and shortly thereafter moved to Waco to be with the Branch Davidians. When Howell arrived, Lois Roden's control over the Branch was already waning. Her son, George, thought he should be his father's true successor, and some Branch Davidians were more than a little perturbed by Lois Roden's recent proclamation that the Holy Spirit was feminine. Former followers say they didn't like George Roden much, either. Thought he was buts. Howell walked right into this power vacuum. Over the next few years, he bedded Lois Roden and married Rachel Jones, according to the ex-adherents. After his marriage, he shunned the old woman, declaring that his beliefs were now the true revealed word. He had a charismatic manner and a scriptural answer for everything. "He knew the Bible awful well," says Doug Mitchell, a former member of the group who now lives in California. "He was always teaching that Sister Roden had lost he inspiration." Howell also pestered Roden to get rid of her son. Howell and George Roden got into a few fights (Howell's relationship with his mother couldn't have helped), and George began wearing a gun around the compound. It was the first weapon ever seen at Mount Carmel, Mitchell says. Around this time, Mitchell recalls going to consult with Lois Roden about some minor issue. "Ask Vernon," she said with a sigh. "He seems to be in charge." What Vernon put in charge was how his new revelation. He was the seventh and final angel destined to be the agent of God who brought about the end of the world. This was truly an apocalyptic vision, but it was also the logical conclusion of Howell's earlier prophecies. He had originally preached that the end would come when he moved to Israel and began converting the Jews. The conversion, he claimed, would cause worldwide upheaval, start a war and would cause. American armed forced to invade the Holy Land. That would signal the beginning of Armageddon. Then Howell would be transformed into a warrior angel who would cleanse the earth in preparation for the New Jerusalem. Howell actually went to Israel in the 1980s, but things didn't work out as he he'd predicted. So he switched to Plan N. In 1990, he legally changed his name to David Koresh (Koresh is Hebrew for Cyrus, the Babylonian king who allowed the Jews to return to Israel). Abandoning the notion of an Apocalypse starting in Israel, he began predicting that the great battle would be in Texas, says David Bunds. The group would stay at Mount Carmel and await the moment when the American army attacked and brought about the end of the world. In the meantime, they managed to keep fairly busy with the mundane details of pre-apocalyptic earthly life. Howell and a core group of about 25 members left the compound after Lois Roden's death in 1986 and wandered through Waco, other parts of Texas and California. In 1987, they were living in the aptly named town of Palestine, Texas, when they decided to wrest back Mount Carmel from George Roden, who at that point claimed to be the true prophet of the Branch. Roden heard about their intentions and challenged his rival to a grisly contest. He dug up a coffin containing the corpse of an 85-year old woman and announced that whoever of them could resurrect the woman was the true leader. Howell wisely declined to participate. In Halloween of that year, Denise Wilkerson, then a prosecutor in Waco, received an unusual request from sheriff's deputies. Howell wanted to prosecute Roden for corpse abuse. "Given that it was Halloween, we thought it was a joke," Wilkerson says. Nevertheless, she told the sheriff's department that without evidence of a crime, say a photograph showing that there was actually a corpse in the coffin, she could not file charges. A few days later, in the early morning hours of Nov. 3, Howell and seven heavily armed comrades dressed in camouflage fatigues made their way from Palestine onto the grounds of Mount Carmel. Their alleged goal: to get a picture of the corpse. The invaders waited until many of the adults and children at Mount Carmel had left for work and school, then went from building to building warning members to leave because there might be trouble. One member notified Roden instead. Wilkerson says Roden grabbed his Uzi and a 20-minute fire fight followed. The sheriff was called and the shooting stopped. No one was killed, but Roden was slightly wounded in the hand and chest. Howell and his men were charged with attempted murder and released on bond. Then Roden was jailed for contempt of court in an unrelated case after he filed "some of the most obscene and profane motions that probably have ever been filed in a federal courthouse," says Wilkerson. Howell seized the moment, moving his followers into Mount Carmel and fortifying the place. In early 1988, Howell and the seven members of his team went on trial for attempted murder. Claiming that he was aiming at a tree, Howell admitted shooting in Roden's direction, and that his colleagues had merely fired their guns into the air to scare Roden into giving up. Howell's accomplices were acquitted, and Howell's trial ended in a hung jury. "After the verdict was announced," Wilkerson recalls, "a couple of jurors came over and hugged Vernon because they found him to be a very sympathetic character." Then, as the spectators were filing out of the courtroom, Howell invited everyone, including the jury, out to Mount Carmel for an ice cream social. A few months later George Roden got out of jail on the contempt charges and moved to Odessa. Not long afterwards he was sent to a state mental hospital after killing a man. (Still there last week, he said, "I've been trying to warn people about Vernon for years.") Since the trial, Mount Carmel has presented a quiet front to the outside world. Neighbors reported that Howell/Koresh was a regular guy, who often turned up at local clubs to listen to live music. Brent Moore, manager of the Chelsea Street Pub, says he last saw Koresh about a month ago, when he came to the pub with a man and a woman in their early 20s. They were happily showing down bean and cheese nachos with iced tea. But within the cult, former followers say life grew more and more bizarre. At the compound, there was an armed guard at all times and Koresh was in total control. In August 1989, former followers say, he announced that not only was he allowed to have as many wives as he wanted; he was the only man allowed to have wives. Every other marriage was annulled. Many happy married couples in the group were shocked and quite a few left. Marc Breault was one of them. After moving to Australia, he organized other former Branch Davidians and hired an investigator to go to Waco to get local authorities to bust Koresh, according to the Waco paper. In addition to the weird sex, there were charges of child abuse. Followers claimed that Koresh beat even very young children until they were bruised and bleeding. Koresh has denied these claims, and child-welfare workers who visited Mount Carmel aid they found nothing wrong-although some followers say Koresh was tipped off before their arrival. But just as Koresh had predicted, the end of the world-at least his world-was near. A few years ago a bus was buried to serve as a bunker; in recent months stores of food and ammunition have been brought in. None of the children Koresh released after the shoot-out were his, the heirs to the House of David, ex-members believe. So all is still in place for the grand finale. The adults, says Bunds, are probably happy to stay. "They are waiting to get zapped up to heaven where they'll be transformed and fight a war where they get to kill all their enemiesThe only people that may be sorry are the parents who had to let their children be released." With youngsters gone, they had but one life to lose for their prophet.

-- Truth (at@the.ready), September 09, 1999.

Just a thought about the destruction of evidence. Dallas Morning News is running a couple of interesting pieces today (and has archives of tons of articles from before, during and after 4/19/93).
One of today's articles: Flares were fired to stop intruder at siege, FBI says has some interesting tidbits.
"A retired Ranger captain who headed the agency's Branch Davidian investigation said Wednesday that the spent pyrotechnic devices recovered or photographed after the fire may have gone unnoticed because of the complexity of the crime scene and the relatively narrow focus of the Rangers' investigation."
"The investigators had to comb through a burned building that yielded 24,000 pounds of evidence, and their assignment was largely limited to developing a murder case from the deaths of four federal agents killed during the Feb. 28, 1993, firefight that began the standoff, retired Capt. David Byrnes said."
Now that is understandable. Any form of police force gets a little pissed off when they lose officers. You can see why they would want evidence to bring a murder case against... whom? Koresh was dead. So it must have been against the surviving Branch Davidians, right? You would want as strong a case as possible to show that they were drug-manufacturing murderous whackos who killed your totally innocent officers in the line of duty.. right? Why some of the women and children were found without heads or arms or legs!! Wouldn't you think there would have been an effort to add that "But a GAO investigator said the inquiry could not fully account for why the FBI's tactical experts also obtained 250 high-explosive 40 mm rounds, devices commonly used as anti- personnel ordnance, from Fort Hood during the standoff."
"Mr. Collingwood said the shipment, described by some military veterans as enough high-explosive rounds to supply an entire Army company, was probably a routine delivery for FBI tactical teams around the country."
"Probably routine"... pay no attention... move along.. move along. No story here. Should be fairly easy to check. Where are the records that "enough high-explosive rounds to supply an entire Army company" are routing deliveries? And where are all the records that show that all of those rounds were returned unused because....
Elsewhere in the article:
"The FBI denies ever shooting at the Branch Davidians"

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), September 09, 1999.

Oopsie... something got clipped.
Wouldn't you think there would have been an effort to add that evid ence (of missing heads and other body parts) to the litany of sins being attributed to the Branch Davidians? So why the bulldozers? Why the hiding and destruction of evidence?
Other tidbits (read the whole article.. lots of goodies):
"A recent investigation by the federal General Accounting Office indicated that the FBI acquired 50 of the 40 mm illumination rounds from U.S. Army stores at Fort Hood during the first weeks of the standoff"
"But a GAO investigator said the inquiry could not fully account for why the FBI's tactical experts also obtained 250 high-explosive 40 mm rounds, devices commonly used as anti- personnel ordnance, from Fort Hood during the standoff."

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), September 09, 1999.

Truth,
I'm sorry, but I am about to conclude that you are either an ignorant putz or a shill. Your only debating point is that David Koresh was a wacko and possibly psychotic, as well. You continue to post lengthy, emotion-laden diatribes that offer nothing but that argument. Are you so blinded by your zeal to convict David Koresh (who is, after all, already dead) that you don't notice no one is disputing that? I will ask you one more time to return to the facts I presented and either dispute them or concede that you cannot.

-- (Liar!!@...), September 09, 1999.

I don't pretend to know the truth. However, what is abdundantly clear is that no one (on either side) there deserved to die the way they did, and that the survivors should not be in jail. Also clear to me is that the Waco assault was to be touted as an example of "who wears the pants" in law enforcement...ie., it was to be the Feds, not the State. Also, the BATF's neck was on the Congressional chopping block and needed a well-publicized, successful mission to justify why its existence as an independent agency was warranted when the FBI, the Secret Service, and the Federal Marshalls already covered similar turf.
If nothing else, this is an example of how excessive force can be abused when other, less intrusive options are presented. These other options include an undercover sting, or possibly the apprehension of Koresh when he was actually in town, away from the commune, on charges of weapons violations. The Federal Govt., however, would had to have conclusively demonstrated that the allegations (transport of illegal weapons across a state boundary) fell under Federal, not Texas, jurisdiction. I don't know all the facts here. Rumors have been floating around to the tune that it WAS NOT clearly a federal matter.
Clearly, our government has been caught in one lie, that incendiary devices were used. Very likely, it has been caught in another lie regarding the use of delta forces in the assault, a violation of Posse Comitatus (sp?). There is also a good reason to believe that the evidence at the scene was tampered with (ie., the bodies were mutilated and cooked beyond recognition), a crime that would put an ordinary citizen in prison for a long time. All these facets make me very very curious: WHO'S HIDING SOMETHING? The whole truth has obviously not been told.
I suspect that the whole truth was not even told to the BATF when they were doing their thing, who perhaps is getting unfair heat as the finger of blame needs to be pointed a little HIGHER UP.

-- coprolith (coprolith@rocketship.com), September 09, 1999.

Ditto.
More emotional frothing about the hideous Koresh monster. Would that you devoted so much time to the murdered children.
Your evidence just amasses now. Just think, if the feds had not gassed and fried everyone, sooner or later this mountain of evidence would surely have found its way into the jurisdiction of the State of Texas and resulted in Koresh being picked up by the sheriff, tried and convicted in a court of law, and his imprisonment. Instead, you continue to sob about all Koresh's victims, WHO WOULD ALL STILL BE ALIVE IF OUR GOVERNMENT HAD NOT RUN AMOK!!

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 09, 1999.

Coprolith....Keep looking in that direction, you are getting warmer.

-- Truth (at@the.ready), September 09, 1999.

Mumsie, thank you once again for your patiently detailed dissection of "Truth's" lies! As always, you are highly insightful and can express things so clearly that they can be understood by anyone -- anyone, that is, who wishes to see. Many of you have also nobly defended the real "truth" that "Truth" seems to have overlooked.
However, I really do not think he/she has overlooked it. I think that this is a government plant writing here to smokescreen for his bosses, and to smoke out those who disagree. Do we all go on The List if we do?

-- Truth S. Scarey (Going@anonymous.com), September 09, 1999.

Let's seeeee 'Truth', you now would like to play the "cold-cool-warm- warmer-HOT" game? If you actually have anything worth saying (unlikely).......spit it out butt nugget. Quit wasting our time.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), September 09, 1999.

Truth:
If you could prove that David Korish was the devil incarnate, how does that justify the Goverrnment killing so many?

-- WAtcher7 (anon@2anon.com), September 09, 1999.

Truth:
If you could prove that David Korish was the devil incarnate, how does that justify the Goverrnment killing so many of his followerrs?

-- WAtcher7 (anon@2anon.com), September 09, 1999.

Koresh's character -- irrelevant.
ATF/FBI... are criminal enterprises -- relevant.
Truth (the facts) was destroyed in the fire; to bad "Truth" (the fascist apologist) wasn't.

-- A (A@AisA.com), September 09, 1999.

Mumsie, Clinton's comments can be found at:
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00010nj

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), September 09, 1999.

Good grief........correction *again*. Should read =0010nj.
Sorry :)

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), September 09, 1999.

For those of you that dont remember, this was the turning point that led to the end game. Twist it anyway you wish, it still will come up..Koresh, Koresh, Koresh. He caused, continued, and concluded the situation. He is responsible for killing his followers and to ignore this basic truth is to live in denial.
FBI: Cult leader said God told him to wait U.S. agents seem ready for long wait 03/04/93 By George Kuempel, Lee Hancock / The Dallas Morning News WACO-The leader of a besieged religious sect said he reneged on his pledge to surrender because God told him to stay inside his fortified compound, federal authorities said Wednesday. David Koresh "said he will keep his promise to come out when he receives further instruction from God," FBI Agent Jeffrey Jamar said on the fourth day of a standoff with Mr. Koresh's followers. A small army of agents has surrounded the headquarters of the Branch Davidian sect since a shootout Sunday morning in which four agents of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and an unknown number of sect members were killed. FBI and ATF agents, still trying to determine how the Sunday morning arrest raid went haywire, now seem hunkered for a long wait. Mr. Koresh and the 110 disciples he says are with him in the corpse- strewn compound are believed to have food, water, guns and ammunition sufficient for a protracted battle. On Tuesday, Mr. Koresh told negotiators by telephone that he would give up immediately if they permitted him to broadcast a message on radio. The taped message, a disjointed 58-minute interpretation of apocalyptic Scripture, was carried out of the compound by one of the 18 children Mr. Koresh has freed. The tape was broadcast nationally at 1:30 p.m. But two hours later, there was no sign of the 33-year-old high school dropout who believes that he is Christ and that the end of the world is nigh. Right after the broadcast, Mr. Koresh told negotiators that he and his followers were "coming out the door momentarily," then abruptly severed all communications with federal officials for the next two hours, Agent Jamar said. "In subsequent contacts with Koresh, he stated that he had received a message from God instructing him to wait," said Agent Jamar, the FBI official in charge at the scene. He spoke at the federal authorities' first substantive news conference since the shootout. After informing negotiators of that divine message, Mr. Koresh didn't speak with authorities again until Wednesday morning, said ATF spokeswoman Francesca Perot. The agents said they have no plans to storm the compound, whose concrete-reinforced buildings are connected by underground passages and protected by a lookout tower. "The goal is to resolve this situation ultimately in federal court with no further bloodshed," Agent Jamar said. "It does no good to set deadlines." Mr. Koresh, they reported, says he is accompanied by 47 women, 43 men and 20 children, including some British subjects and possibly other foreigners. By all accounts, the sect members are well-supplied and well-armed. Lloyd Sandstrom, a bus driver who lives near the compound, recounted twice seeing sect members stocking up on canned vegetables, canned fruit and dry foodstuffs at the local Sam's Club in the past six months. "Someone who purchases case lots of nonperishable goods, you're naturally curious," Mr. Sandstrom, 51, said Wednesday night. "To me it adds up. They were stockpiling for Armageddon." One federal official familiar with the investigation said the compound is equipped with a water storage tank and enough military rations to last several months. "The only problem they may face is the bodies-the stench should begin to bother them pretty soon," said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity. The FBI has confirmed that an undetermined number of sect members were killed in the gunfight. In what may have been the day's most disturbing disclosure, authorities confirmed that the weekend raid was compromised by a Sunday morning telephone call to the sect members. The agents believed that they would surprise Mr. Koresh and his followers when they came to arrest him and search for illegal weapons. Instead, they were surprised by a hellish fusillade, much of it from sophisticated and large-caliber weapons. "It is believed that prior to the execution of the warrant, a phone call was received that placed the occupants on alert. There is no doubt they were expecting our arrival," said Dan Hartnett, associate director of ATF. Infiltrated He said an agent who had infiltrated the compound was present when the call came in. The agent saw the person who took the call stop normal activities and begin reading Scripture, he said. The agent, unaware that the call may have been a tip, left about 45 minutes before the raid was to begin, thinking the coast was clear, Mr. Hartnett said. Meanwhile, the sect members apparently armed themselves for religious war. "When we went into this compound, the element of surprise was essential," Mr. Hartnett said. Authorities gave no indication of how they subsequently determined that the call, originally thought to be innocuous, was in fact a tip about the raid. The Texas Rangers have joined federal authorities in trying to determine whether Mr. Koresh was notified and if so, by whom, an investigator said. Mr. Hartnett-responding to criticism that his agents tried to capture the compound instead of just seizing Mr. Koresh on the street -- said the sect leader long ago had abandoned his habit of jogging, visiting nearby Waco or otherwise venturing outside his haven. "He hadn't left in months. He decided God had told him he should stay there, not leave the compound," he said. Agent Jamar said negotiators remain in occasional telephone communication with Mr. Koresh and his disciples. "If they call us, we immediately answer. There've been several instances when we call them and they let it ring," he said. Authorities have otherwise cut the group's phone ties to the outside world. In the early hours of the siege, the sect leader freely shared his prophecies in interviews with CNN, KRLD-AM (1080), The Dallas Morning News and others. The scores of reporters massed behind police lines near the sect's compound viewed with mixed feelings the installation Wednesday of several outdoor toilets. The portable toilets, although an added comfort, are further evidence that authorities are settling in for a long haul. On Wednesday, the government informed Waco hotel managers by letter that agents might need rooms for 10 more days. Federal officials said Mr. Koresh spends his days preaching to his flock, monitoring television and radio coverage of the siege-the compound has a satellite dish-and calling negotiators to recite rambling Bible passages. Tuesday evening, a bus from the compound gave rise to speculation that 20 more children had been freed. The report was first made by a federal agent on duty at a Waco hospital. The agency later retracted the report after state child welfare officials said they had no such information. Authorities did not know Wednesday when more would be released. Asked whether the talks with Mr. Koresh have been unusual, given the sect leader's erratic temperament and eccentric theology, Agent Jamar replied, "Any time you negotiate with anybody, you have to deal with what's in their minds." Negotiators have described Mr. Koresh, who claims to have been wounded Sunday, as relatively lucid. "But his idea of lucidity and ours might be different," said Ms. Perot of the ATF. Federal court documents filed Tuesday confirmed what the ATF agents so poignantly learned Sunday morning. Sect members have at their disposal massive weapon caches that include machine guns and other heavy-caliber weaponry, according to an ATF affidavit. The affidavit was filed in connection with a complaint charging two women from the sect, who were set free by Mr. Koresh on Tuesday, with conspiracy, murder, attempted murder and use of a firearm during the commission of a felony. On Wednesday, in what could be a negotiating concession to Mr. Koresh, prosecutors moved to dismiss charges against the women, 75- year-old Margaret Lawson and 77-year-old Catherine Mattson. The two, however, remain in custody as material witnesses. Asked whether Mr. Koresh had made new demands since the tape was aired, Mr. Jamar said the sect has raised concerns about the charges against the elderly women. The women were taken to court in shackles and handcuffs on Wednesday. When U.S. Magistrate Dennis G. Green dismissed the charges, Ms. Mattson said she appreciated that action but didn't understand being detained as a material witness. A third sect member, Delroy Nash, 28, who was caught while trying to flee the compound Sunday evening, remains in custody. In Austin on Wednesday, Gov. Ann Richards said she would consider supporting legislation to ban military-type assault weapons in Texas, in view of the Mount Carmel shootout. "These weapons aren't for anything but killing people, and the events in Waco heighten our awareness of how deadly' they are, said the governor, who was born near Waco. "When we have people who own those weapons who are better armed than the protectors of our society, then it's time for us to take a very serious look."

-- Truth (at@the.ready), September 09, 1999.

hturT,
What's you're point? This is a Fed press release. We heard those terrified Congressmen in 93 pound across the line that anyone questioning the government spin was "delusional." Now the government admits they lied. And they destroyed evidence. And they're investigating whether there was a coverup, but are too yellow to take another look at the raid itself - the wretched little cowards. But too many people have seen McNulty's films. Too many POWERFUL, PRINCIPLED people (there are still some left, my friend). And Mr. and Mrs. America are not as dumb as you think either. The more you spin, the more people realize how desperate and morally bankrupt you are - so go ahead on, boy. You're spinning your own hole in the ground.
If anyone hasn't seen the films yet, here's a nice page with some still photos. Doesn't do justice to the footage itself, but it gives the basic idea. The video can be rented at most any local video store.
http://users.erols.com/igoddard/wacofire.htm
This site is run by a very interesting young man with a proud American heritage. His home page is worth a look.
Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), September 09, 1999.

Liberty
There is another well-known site called the Waco Holocaust Museum. Just chock full of pictures and anti-government conspiracy theories. These folks say the McNumbNuts film is a big scam!! Help us out here buddy. Which group of wackos are we to believe? The answer is????

-- ???? (??@??.???), September 09, 1999.

Hey Truth, Just one question,Which ATF ranger grabbed the PROMIS disk and distroyed the computer? Jack boots and wannabe's act the same the world over. The dead tell no tales and rome plowed remains leave little evidence. tell it to the jury.

-- Fats Kissinger (draconionsolutions@uselesseaters.com), September 09, 1999.

"Twist it anyway you wish, it still will come up..Koresh, Koresh, Koresh. "
Twist it anyway you want, it will still come up MURDER, MURDER, MURDER of innocent children.
"to ignore this basic truth is to live in denial."
You said it.
" "said he will keep his promise to come out when he receives further instruction from God,"
So?! Should we start an accounting for all the taxpayer funds that are p*ssed down the federal pork pot? What was the big hurry that justifies gassing and frying babies and kids?
"corpse- strewn compound"
THIS IS A FACT, this is hard evidence. It demands to be examined to the nth degree.
" The agents said they have no plans to storm the compound"
Is this supposed to make us laugh or cry?
""Someone who purchases case lots of nonperishable goods, you're naturally curious," ....."To me it adds up. They were stockpiling for Armageddon."
What a crime! I hope all you criminal whacko preppers out there are listening. Your real motivation has been outed!
"the bodies-the stench should begin to bother them pretty soon"
The STENCH of this slaughter should bother the ones who planned and carried out this carnage. I hope whoever mutilated, dismembered and decapitated those babies sees those images every day for the rest of their lives.
"The FBI has confirmed that an undetermined number of sect members were killed in the gunfight"
Correction... were murdered in the gunfight. Everybody sing..."Delta Dawn, what's that weapon you've got on?"
"The agents believed that they would surprise Mr. Koresh "
THIS is so preposterous that it surpasses the capacity to derive humor from it. The Feds themselves tipped the press, and practically rode in circus parade style.
"When we went into this compound, the element of surprise was essential,"
It was essential to make people believe it was essential.
"The affidavit was filed in connection with a complaint charging two women from the sect, who were set free by Mr. Koresh on Tuesday, with conspiracy, murder, attempted murder and use of a firearm during the commission of a felony. On Wednesday, in what could be a negotiating concession to Mr. Koresh, prosecutors moved to dismiss charges against the women, 75- year-old Margaret Lawson and 77-year-old Catherine Mattson"
And just when you thought it was safe to visit Granny!
"When we have people who own those weapons who are better armed than the protectors of our society, then it's time for us to take a very serious look."
Hey, somebody is getting it! When the citizens of the United States of America own weapons as is their basic right, guaranteed and protected by the Second Amendment, it will cause law-breaking law enforcers to think twice. Don't forget that Hitler pioneered disarming civilians!

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 10, 1999.

The Press and Waco Crime/Corruption Opinion (Published) Keywords: WACO Source: Counterpunch,com Published: September 8 1999 Author: Alexander Cockburn
The ashes of the murdered Branch Davidians and their children -- around 80 of them, though we cant be sure -- were still glowing as almost all the nations major news institutions rousingly endorsed the decision of Janet Reno and her boss, Bill Clinton, to give the FBI (and as it turned out, the Delta Force) the go-ahead for an operation that ensured massacre.
It was one of the great failures of American journalism, one of the most sickening, one of the most predictable, and one of the most revealing. Liberals, by and large, were worse than conservatives in giving Reno a vote of confidence.
To this day, I meet progressive types who devote many of their waking hours to activities designed to save Mumia abu Jamal, who didn t give a toss about the Branch Davidians and their terrible slaughter by the federal government, and who still dont.
Use the word "cult," and both reason and moral judgment enter recess. So now comes further proof of the lies, deceptions and cover-ups of the FBI, and how do the big press poobahs react?
Do they make forthright confession that they bought a cover-up and tried to sell it to the American people, many of whom steadfastly continued to believe that the government was lying and that an infamy had been perpetrated?
Heres Ted Koppel, the night of Sep. 1, discussing the seizure by federal marshals of tapes of FBI hostage "negotiators" discussing the use of pyrotechnic grenades the morning of the Waco raid: "... The credibility of the FBI, which probably did tell the truth about most of what happened, that credibility is badly damaged, while the credibility of conspiracy theorists, who tend to be wrong about most of what theyve spun together about Waco, their credibility is newly enhanced. It is on these two fronts that the greatest damage has been done."
In this repellent passage, Koppel defines his career role as flack for state power. For him, the issue is not that an agency of government appears to have planned mass murder, exactly as the so- called "conspiracy nuts" first conjectured, then, proved. For him, the issue is the credibility of the state. For the liberal elite -- in whose ranks most so-called conservatives can be numbered -- this is always the issue.
Koppel was scarcely alone. Heres a CBS broadcast of Sep. 2: "For years now, the disaster near Waco has been exhibit No. 1 for many who have deep distrust of the American government. From conspiracy sites on the Internet to documentary films, Waco has provided a focus for those who see the government as the enemy. And now they say there is proof the government has been lying, reports CBS News Correspondent John Blackstone.
"'This is just fodder for the conspiracy theorists,' says psychologist Margaret Singer. She says this is just what the militia movement needs to say, 'We told you so.' ... Many are certain to see this as government out of control. "'The anti-government movement, the militia, hate groups are absolutely going to get a boost out of this, and I think its really a tragedy for that reason,' said Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center. At one time, conspiracy theorists may have been viewed as eccentrics far out on the fringe, but then, Timothy McVeigh drove a truck full of explosives to Oklahoma City, and we all discovered just how dangerous it can be when people stop trusting the government."
As with Koppel, the problem for these CBS broadcasters is not one of overweening and murderous government (entirely in control), but of potential sedition. Anything that disturbs popular torpor is tactically inept. Accomplices in the great and ongoing Cover-up of Everything that Really Matters -- the central mission of the Fourth Estate -- they tremble for Power, whenever Power is displayed in an undignified or unappetizing light.
Its why they thought Clinton should resign over the Lewinsky affair. The film "Waco, A New Revelation," whose disclosures about the pyrotechnic devices provoked the current storm, has had the benign effect of discrediting the FBI and the Department of Justice and its chieftain, but in the end, it may permit the FBI to recoup, by saying that the target of the pyrotechnic devices was just an outhouse, and that these same projectiles never struck the main building in which the Branch Davidians were sheltered.
As Dan Gifford, executive producer of the earlier "Waco: The Rules of Engagement" pointed out on Sept. 3, "No national news organization is saying anything at all about the governments careful prepping of the Davidian building to burn, nor its machine-gunning of the Davidians in the burning building that is so clearly shown in the FBIs own aerial surveillance video that is included in 'Waco: The Rules of Engagement.'" One riposte of the state to the latest Waco disclosures is to emphasize, as did CBSs Blackstone, that those who mistrust government are by definition subversive, dangerous and possibly homicidal, and therefore, deserving of incineration. A Reuters story by Jim Wolf, put out on Aug. 31, sets the stage. "The U.S. government is preparing for possible violence from cults, guerrillas, hate groups and end-of-world-fearing zealots as 2000 approaches," the report began. "The Federal Bureau of Investigation expects to see increased and possibly violent activities among certain groups related to the millennium," a top official warned Congress in July. So, we can see the stage being set for the next Waco. The SWAT teams shouldnt forget Ronald Reagan.
He used to express his confidence in the imminence of Armageddon, citing Holy Scripture as his authority. Maybe the ATF, which launched the first unprovoked attack on the Branch Davidian compound, should launch a preemptive strike on the former presidents house, just to be on the safe side.
COPYRIGHT 1999 CREATORS SYNDICATE, INC. Alexander Cockburn is the editor of 'Counterpunch', a well-known political newsletter.

-- Count Vronsky (vronsky@anna.com), September 10, 1999.

If anyone's interested, the ACLU of Southern California offers Waco:The Rules of Engagement for $29.95. As noted on the Website - The film was produced by Somford Entertainment. ACLU/SC Foundation board members, Dan Gifford and Amy Sommer Gifford, founded the company in 1994.
Curiouser and curiouser...

-- Mac (sneak@lurk.hid), September 10, 1999.

Am I the only one who looks at the last words of the original post, the epithet "...special interest group with an anti-government agenda" and thinks "Founding Fathers"?
We used to be proud of America's "anti-government" foundation: limits on central power, checks and balances on a government assumed to tend toward corruption... Now the term "anti-government" is supposed to make us cower in fear? Go jump in the lake, "Liar."
Time for us all to read our Constitution and our Federalist Papers. Neighborhood study groups might be a good idea.
Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), September 10, 1999.

"Truth": You are the type of dissembling fascist apologist that makes me hope for a Y2K 9 or 10, and that I encounter you personally thereafter.
As many here know, I am no fan of Christianity, even less so of fundamentalist wackos. But a*holes like you, I hate your putrid guts. You have posted tens of KB of bullsh* -- ALL IRRELEVANT.
Note to all: Quit this thread -- nothing to be gained except anger.

-- A (A@AisA.com), September 10, 1999.

A,
When you get angry, you can't think straight, nor fight effectively in word or deed. "Truth" really is just a troll, probably some FBI PR shill or some other psyops grunt. He's eventually going to learn too much and get whacked for it (remember: they eat their young), so just think on that with a quiet, self-contained joy. Some people out there lurking are just at the point of starting to be aware of the Federal/Globalist criminal syndicate, Waco, Clinton's Death-list and Mob/Commie connections, etc.. Anger scares them away, and justifies everything the Evil Bastards are trying to do.
Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), September 10, 1999.

Truth is a lying worthless scumbag and everyone knows it. Why does he keep subjecting us to his ridiculous lies?? They STORMED the compound and MURDERED everyone. EVERYONE. How can anybody support this? Everybody KNOWS THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED!!!! Anything Truth says is just spin and lies. ALL OF IT.

-- (we@know.the.truth), September 10, 1999.

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