More Caution Needed Post-Y2K (Medical)

Answers

Would you mind describing the spider. Were in Iowa and have seen a few lately that we don't ever recall seeing before. One is very large (about an inch and a half) black and very furry. Another is a redish color and very large. Thanks.

-- Nancy (HAYSandCO@aol.com), September 08, 1999.

Nancy,
A brown recluse is small, about half an inch. Don't know what the others were that you saw.
Has anyone heard about using the mini stun gun (25,000 volts, I think) on snake or brown recluse bites? Supposedly the swelling and action of the poison is dramatically diminished and can be used on people as well as pets.

-- Jill D. (jdance@mindspring.com), September 08, 1999.

In Northern Illinois one of our friends was bitten by a brown Recluse several years ago. It was very painful and caused some extensive necrosis. We don't hear much about people being bitten, so I assume we don't have a great many of them, but they do turn up now and then.
Fortunately, I have never heard of a rattler in our part of the country. My sympathies for the bite. Hope you have a rapid healing.
gene

-- gene (ekbaker@essex1.com), September 08, 1999.

Forget what I posted above about the stun gun treatment. Just read a convincing article to the contrary. No scientific evidence under strict testing, etc.
Dakota, hope you're feeling well and heal quickly. Let us know how you're doing.

-- Jill D. (jdance@mindspring.com), September 08, 1999.

Brown Recluse are also called "fiddle back" for good reason - it looks like a violin has been painted in dark brown on their back - nasty, nasty, much worse than widow bites.
I haven't heard of using "zappers" but I have heard of using heat to destroy the enzymes in poisons (don't remember the details) from wasps, etc. Be careful!
Good luck Dakota.

-- Kristi (securxsys@cs.com), September 09, 1999.

JILL D:
Could you please give the reference for the negative take on stungun therapy? Brown recluse bites are BAD -- never had good results with my patients who got bitten. BTW, they were all up north, California, and Wash State. I've read nothing but good about the stungun in this application. One needs to be careful with extravagent medical claims without evidence. But one needs to be careful about negative reports too. Especially where there's nothing good to replace the treatment in question. More especially if Y2K turns out to be 'something' rather than 'nothing.' A good example of scepticism gone awry are the ANECDOTAL reports denouncing positive anecdotal reports of what colloidal silver can do. Remember --- my colleagues and I won't be around to take care of your medical problems in 4 months unless Bill Clinton, Bill Gates, and John Kosky have the right stuff after all.
Again can you post your reference. Tnx much,
Bill

-- William J. Schenker, MD (wjs@linkfast.net), September 09, 1999.

Dr. Bill,
Here's the debunker: http://www.xmission.com/~gastown/herpmed/shock.htm
A good pro article: http://master.spiritweb.org/KeelyNet/Biology/snake1.asc.html
I was disappointed when I read the article which denounces the electric shock therapy as being useful. I ran across it as I was looking for a source for the stun gun (purportedly Nova Technologies, but I couldn't find a website). My dogs have been at the emergency room at midnight three times so far due to copperhead bites, and it would have been us if not for their protective nature...so I was very much interested in this type of treatment. Your comments would be much appreciated.

-- Jill D. (jdance@mindspring.com), September 09, 1999.

JILL:
What a wonderful tool the Internet is -- found about stunguns and snake bites a year ago, participated in a LONG thread on it on the (y2k.entrewave.com) forum -- but no one ever brought up the medical literature references. I also appreciate the balance you bring to this issue by the "pro" reference you posted. Here's my take.
I. The medical references. After my first reading of the referenced articles I felt kind of foolish for having spent the money on my stungun. However, mine only cost $15 (!!) apiece, so I bought two [see below for source.] Then I re-read the articles. They certainly gave me pause. But consider the following: no where do they mention the details of the shock therapy given. Was it a DC current (AC apparently does not work)? What was the voltage level? How did they arrive at that voltage level? Was it 100 volts, 1000 volts, 10,000 volts, more? What was the amperage? What was the wave form of the shock voltage.
How soon after the injection of venom was the shock applied? How far from the injection site was it applied? Did they inject subcutaneously or intramuscularly (and if the latter was it at a superficial level)?
These latter are also important important questions, because it seems to me it's difficult to simulate the physical dimensions typical of envenomation of a large mammal (like a dog, or a human) by using the diminutive frame of a mouse. Thus their injection technique might have ended up with the equivalent of injecting a human somewhere deep inside his body. The deeper the bite I would assume the greater the danger and more resistant to therapy. And the time interval between the bite and the shock could make a big difference: it takes longer for the venom to travel to critical organs in a mouse than in a dog or human.
Next (and related) question? Why didn't they use dogs? Saving money? And why didn't they use live rattlers? Saving money? Scared of snakes?
Next question? Why didn't they try it on humans? Now it gets tricky. We docs have had to become VERY careful with our experiments -- the bite of a lawyer did a LOT more damage to the style of my medical practice than a snake bite or spider bite might have. Of all the references given, only one centers on a human case. I'd sure like to know the details of that one. It would help discern truth from fiction.
Summary of the medical references (apart from the one human one): -- sounds like the design of their testing was, I can't resist this, a little Mickey Mouse.
2. The "pro" reference. It is consistent with ALL the other stuff I've read. Nevertheless, I was left with an uneasy feeling: I sure would have liked to have seen an artice in a medical journal supporting the claims made by the proponents. Read on.
3. I found reference to such an article in an issue of William J. Douglass, MD's monthly newsletter, "Second Opinion." (BTW, any MD whose name is William J. is one whose opinion you should revere, what?) Dr. D. went into some detail describing the technique and results of shock therapy and venom bites. Specifically, the Journal of the Oklahoma State Medical Association, June 1991, describes ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY SEVEN cases. Dr. Carl D. Osborn, the author reported success in every case, and "The progression of venom damage was stopped with the first treatment." Now I feel much better about my stun gun purchase.
Finally, two sources of stun guns:
I don't know about a Nova Technologies website, but a source of 25,000 KV guns is: Nutritech, Waverly, TX, 888-491-8882, www.nutritech.org., price: $85 plus 5 S/H. The folks there, Debra and Paul Raybern, wrote a good article (Texans know about recluse spiders, scorpions, & snakes!) for the Sep/Oct '99 issue of Countryside Magazine (You DON'T want to be without that mag for your y2k preps. 800-551-5691. Get all their Y2K back issues. Every one's a gem.)
My $15 stunguns came from an outfit in Huntsville, AL a year ago. The owner passed away and the biz was bought by: Self DefenCe Products, 36 Calle Verano, Rancho Santa Margarita, CA 92688, 1-949-459-9218, M-F, 8-5 PST. Ck out their website (www.selfdefenCe.com ..... that capital C is NOT a typo.) I bought Model # 65kv. It puts out 65 kilovolts. I just called them to find out if placing some kind of thin plastic or cloth barrier betw the electrodes and the skin can reduce the voltage to the 25 kilovolt level. I might like to go even lower if I'm dealing with a small child or a dog. They are going to research it and call me or email me back. I will post the info here when I get it. BTW, looking thru their online catalog I don't see my model listed anymore --- I think I may have bought it on a closeout. Ask them about it.
Tnx again, Jill, for bringing up those references.
Bill
P.S. Why did the docs pan the stun guns? Same reason they pan ANY alternative medical treatment, until LONG AFTER it's become mainstream. Why are docs never in the vanguard of any movement? 'Cause (my generation anyway) ever since each one of them was seven years old they knew all they wanted to be was a doc. That gave them the singlemindedness to make it thru the mindless regurgitation of facts you had to endure to get your pedigree. Singleminded people don't think very well. (The younger generation docs seem to do better at looking at new, alternate versions of Reality.) B.

-- William J. Schenker, MD (wjs@linkfast.net), September 09, 1999.

JILL:
Made a booboo in my last post. The line "it takes longer for the venom to travel to critical organs in a mouse than in a dog or human" should have read "it takes LESS time, etc.,etc."
DAKOTA:
Glad you're doing well with your recluse bite. A couple comments: the medical therapy you got was standard, same thing I prescribed (along with steroids.) But I don't believe it does any good. True, it does give the patient the feeling that the doc was in control of the situation and modern medicine can take care of everything. Seems nature takes it's course: some people get a wicked reaction, others a mild one.
The other comment: in my experience, the bad reaction (necrotic ulercation) takes a while to show up. Keep your fingers crossed.
Bill

-- William J. Schenker, MD (wjs@linkfast.net), September 09, 1999.

Dr. Bill (you maverick!):
Thanks so much for the comments. I knew that article had to be in Countryside Mag - must have been too tired when I paged through it, I thought I checked every page. (By the way I ordered about 15 back issues when I subscribed! I read those magazines cover to cover!)
I think I may purchase one of these stunners. $85 is less than any of the emergency vet bills we've incurred. How refreshing to have a member of the medical profession remain open and creative in his approach to healthcare! Thanks again for your input.

-- Jill D. (jdance@mindspring.com), September 09, 1999.

Why the prescription for antibiotics? Don't know about this particular venom, but I could see something like an 'anti-venom,' or even an antihistamine to put down any symptoms.
People wonder why we have horrors like antibiotic resistant Staph aureus. Indiscriminate issuance of antibiotics by trained medical personnel is bad.

-- Spanky (nospam@spamme.not), September 09, 1999.

Thanks all for your comments.
Might be going back to doctor tomorrow, not getting much better. Dr. Bill, a question - you said necrosis takes a while to show up. My doctor (or rather the book we were reading together) said necrosis ususally shows up within 72 hours - if it doesn't, don't worry. That made me fairly optimistic. Can you tell me what to expect from your experience. Also, am having some mild symptoms which I don't know whether to attribute to the bite - headache, nausea, dizziness. Is this typical?
Thanks for your help and concern.

-- dakota (none@thistime.com), September 09, 1999.

SPANKY:
You've got some good thinking in your post. Re your (I'm sure, rhetorical) question, "Why the antibiotics?" the first part of the answer is in my words to Dakota:
"True, it does give the patient the feeling that the doc was in control of the situation and modern medicine can take care of everything." In other words, part of the "Why?" is to satisfy the patient's belief in the omniscience and omnipotence of modern, "hi-tech" medicine.
The other parts of the answer are:
1) Many, many of the docs have been suckered into that same delusion, the one they're selling to the patient.
2) Other docs know better but like the $$$$. The American patient has been taught to believe that antibiotics cure everything. If a doctor doesn't Rx the stuff, 'he must be a quack or a kook.' IOW, the doc doesn't want to lose the patient to Dr. Krankheit up the street, "....who always gives me a shot of penicillin for my cold if I get sick while you're on vacation, Doc, and he has to fill in for you."
3) Then there's a goodly percentage of docs who know the limits of antibiotics, would like to persuade their patients away from their addiction, but realize if the patient transfers into Dr. Krankheit's practice WORSE things could befall the patient at the hands of that medical hack, like misdiagnosis and gross mismanagement. So the doc gives the patient the 'fix' to keep him safe (You like irony? Howzat for irony?)
And re antibiotic-resistant Staph Aureus, my worst fears since I started practice in '57 have finally come to pass: I read this past week (WSJ) that these lethal bugs, up till now restricted to in-hospital cases, are now being found out in the 'street.' That's the Beginning of the End Game, for modern medicine, even WITHOUT Y2K waiting in the wings. Now do you know why I'm pushing for Colloidal Silver, Bio-Electrifiers, and Magnetic Pulse Generators, and whatever other alternate medicine modalities, including herbals, you can come up with?
Re another comment of yours, "Don't know about this particular venom, but I could see something like an 'anti-venom ...," --- it begs the question, Spanky, "What do you think the purpose behind this thread is?" (For that matter, the purpose of the entire TimeBomb2000 Forums?)
IOW, if Y2K is nothing more than a BITR, why all the fuss and bother about preparations, including PLANNING FOR ALTERNATIVE THERAPIES? IOW, how do you get the anti-venom (which you're quite right about, is easily available NOW) to the patient in post-y2k? And if you could get your hands on it, how would you have kept it under refrigeration (which all 'biologicals' require) after the power goes out (Or are you planning on having full electrical power in your neighborhood, even if the rest of the region or the national grid goes down? Or maybe you're planning on NO problems with the entire grid? The Powers That Be have assured you of that. Do you believe them? Do you remediate 'Enterprise' code? Do you remediate embeddeds? Have you observed in enough detail how corporate management HABITUALLY mishandles technical issues which are presented to them by the 'Indians in the trenches (the actual programmers)?'
Sorry for getting a little testy, Spanky --- have seen too many programming goals missed and interdependent systems develop congestive heart failure and epileptic seizures. But 'maybe this time it'll be different.'
Bill

-- William J. Schenker, MD (wjs@linkfast.net), September 09, 1999.

DAKOTA:
I retired in '87 --- memory's getting fuzzy, so I can't give you the answer with precision. But if necrosis isn't developing by 72 hours you're statistically ahead of the game -- it'll probably pass you by.
Re the other symptom constellation, yeah, that's par for the course. Probably wouldn't hurt to take some Vit C for a couple days (like 1-2000 mg a day), and just lie around reading books or snoozing.
Good luck,
Bill

-- William J. Schenker, MD (wjs@linkfast.net), September 09, 1999.

Regarding spiders, learned hard way not to ever leave clothes on line outside over night here in Texas. Pulled on clean jeans once, briefly, never did find what bit me as I tore/threw them off, but had very painful 8" circular hardened welt for over a month. Then a year later that whole area has gone/stayed numb on the skin surface, like it's asleep. That was over two years ago. (Underlying muscular function is fine, though.) Anyways, I vigoursly shake out and examine everything now, even if laundry only hanging out for a couple hours in midday sunshine.

-- Shane Connor (shanec@gvtc.com), September 09, 1999.

SHANE:
And in Vermont and out in the country in New York State, where I spent all my summers growing up, the warning was: when you sit on the outhouse seat, be careful of your dangling parts --- sometimes incites the black widows to action (Does not apply to girls.)
Bill

-- William J. Schenker, MD (wjs@linkfast.net), September 10, 1999.

HERE'S THE INFO ON DROPPING THE VOLTAGE OF A STUN GUN DOWN TO 25,000 VOLTS:
I asked for a recommendation re using a piece of thin plastic (like maybe a ziploc baggie) between the patient's skin and the stun gun, to lower the voltage. This would be a low-tech method, relatively safe, and simple to apply. However it would be hard to quantify the results. It was not commented on. I may give it a whirl. But don't try it yourself unless you know your way around high voltage equipment.
I also asked about using a pair of 'series' resistors on the two output prongs as an alternative. Considerable details on selecting the proper size series resistors was graciously provided. But along with that advice came strong warnings. Here goes.
WARNING!!! DO NOT FOOL WITH THIS KIND OF THING UNLESS YOU CONSIDERABLY KNOWLEDGEABLE IN ELECTRONICS AND TAKE THE NECESSARY PRECAUTIONS WHEN WORKING AROUND POTENTIALLY LETHAL VOLTAGES AND CURRENTS!!! PROCEED FURTHER AT YOUR OWN RISK.
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I see what the customer is trying to do, and their theory is correct - the voltage can be varied by installing dropping resistors at the output. In essence, the use of dropping resistors would create a series of voltage drops, with the center resistor being the body of the person being treated. I just hope I never get bit by a snake! :-) I can also see why the customer would be hesitant to do internal modifications. It would be much more of a universal application to be able to produce an 'add-on' to the unit to achieve the desired voltage from a variety of units. I think that attempting to drop voltage across resistors on the output would depend too much on the resistance of the target, since the target resistance would fluctuate based upon too many factors to be reliable. Factors like sweat, body oils, relative humidity, sunscreens or other materials applied topicallly could vary the resistance substantially. But, you never know until you try, so I will try to give whatever data I can. I don't have any data on the unit. The best way I can think of to get to some meaningful numbers is to do the following: First, we all know that: V = I * R Make an assumption on body resistance. The human body ESD model for IC ESD testing says output impedance is 1500 ohms, but I doubt the direct applicability of the ESD model to this problem. But it *is* a number. Alternatively, measure the resistance with an ohmmeter. Again, it's a number. 1. Assume 100% efficiency of the unit. 2. Measure the input current. 3. Assume 65kV as the output voltage. 4. Solve for output current. 5. Based upon the output current rating, select a resistor pair that drops all but 25kV of the output. That 25kV will be dropped by the body resistance. Simple voltage drop calculation: V = 2X + Y, where X = Drop resistance (each), and Y = body resistance. 6. Be sure the dropping resistors are of a suitable power rating. Vd * I = W, where Vd = voltage drop, and I = current, and W = power consumed in watts. This does not take into account the duty cycle, which can probably be used to derate the wattage by at least 50%, maybe more. 7. Build a series resistance to which you will connect the output. Each end will be the resistor selected above, and the middle will be the resistance representing the body. Keep in mind the voltage drops and the need for air space between points of high differential voltage. Arcing will occur if you fail to obey the 30V/.001" rule. 8. Use a high voltage probe to measure the voltage across the "body" resistor.
That's pretty much all I can tell you. With the proper basic equipment, it is possible to determine every part of the above. More accurate assumptions can also be made to compensate for inefficiencies in the system. I don't think it's 100% efficient. :-) If the user has a high voltage probe, it may be possible to measure the output directly and thus more accurately determine currents, etc. The use of the results is up to the experimenter.
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Bill

-- William J. Schenker, MD (wjs@linkfast.net), September 10, 1999.

Dr. Billthat last posthuh? I'm afraid that I've only learned enough about all of this to make me dangerous. Seriously though, we live in Iowa and we do have those nasty brown recluse spiders. I didn't know what they looked like until tonight when Kristi said that they are also called "fiddle backs". So that's what that brown spider with the dark brown fiddley looking thing on it's back is! AHHHHHH!
I've seen a few recently around my house. I'm amazed that no one has been bitten yet. And I am very interested in learning about what the best course of treatment would be for any poisonous bite. First you???? Then you????? Can anyone recommend a good field/emergency survival book? The kind of information that tells one what to do if no medical treatment is available.

-- DianeR (starkrav@kdsi.net), September 13, 1999.

Hello again.
My daughter and I spent some time researching the brown recluse spider last night and I'm not so sure now that is what I have seen lately. I did find some scary stuff about their bites though.
http://home.texoma.net/~linesden/spider.htm
http://www.cs.indiana.edu/hyplan/truel/spiders/Dale.Clark.html
I've been remiss in getting a good basic first aid book and it's apparent to me that I'll need to be familiar with emergency procedures before the emergency happens. So, no more novels for me, time to study!

-- DianeR (starkrav@kdsi.net), September 14, 1999.

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