OT - Waco & Apache Helos

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If this is true then we need a new Nurmberg trials.

WACO: If you missed Joyce Riley on Art Bell last night, 9/2/99

To listen to the discussion of Waco by Joyce Riley on Art Bell, download the program.

Click to listen: http://ww2.broadcast.com/artbell/abell/9909/ab0902.ram

Pertinent parts begin at approximately 2 hours, six minutes (2:06) into the program. To fastforward to this point in the program, just move the clip position indicator with your mouse until the time indicator reads somewhere close to 2:06:00.0

Rough transcript beginning at above time (not proofread or spell-checked):

ART BELL: All kinds of information breaking about Waco, just all kinds. I know you have new, as yet unheard by anybody information about Waco. What can you tell us?

JOYCE RILEY: Well, let me preface this by saying the purpose for this person coming forward with the information was that he is a sick Gulf War veteran, and we had a long discussion about the secrets of the Gulf War illness and the cover-up involved there, and I said, "Just like Waco, there needs to be the exposure of the truth about Waco." And he said, "I know about Waco." And I said, "How do you know about Waco?" And he said, "I know more than I wish I knew. I was stationed at Fort Hood and we were the unit that provided the Apache attack helicopters."

You can imagine how startled I was to hear that there were Apache attack helicopters, because an Apache is not even armed in the United States. It's never armed because it is nothing but a helicopter for war. It's --

ART: An Apache, actually, was probably the most efficient killing machine in the Gulf War, so efficient that the images were hidden from the American people. The Apache is an incredible war machine. People have no idea how devastating the fire power from that helicopter can be.

JOYCE: Oh, it is. It looks like a preying mantis. It is the helicopter that has the wheels on it. And if you were to ever see one, it is just -- it's very formidable. And in talking with this Gulf War veteran, and part of the reason I'm saying this today is because of his -- for his protection, because Texas Rangers have become involved in this since I talked with you, Art, so I'm not at liberty to identify some of the things that I was going to say. But I did get a phone call from Dick DeGuerin today, which the attorney for the Branch Dividians, and I can assure you that this information that he gave coincides with what he already knew and speculated.

But let me just say that this Gulf War veteran, after we talked about this, I said, "You know you have a responsibility to come forward, because if we want people to tell the truth about Gulf War illness, if we want the people to come out of the Pentagon and out of the corners in the back alleys and admit to what has gone on there, we're going to have to tell what we know." So he has come forward. He is a destitute, if you will, Gulf War veteran who has no purpose in doing this other than the world needs to know the truth, and it is time that we quit harboring these secrets under the name of military adventure or military action. What he told me is that while he was stationed at Fort Hood at the F227 Aviation Apache Attack Squadron, that they armed the Apache helicopters to go in to Waco.

ART: They armed them.

JOYCE: They armed them. Now understanding that if what we say is true here today, this is the most devastating information to come across, because this puts the liability and the accountability all the way up to the president, for arming a helicopter for a war situation within the United States, basically violating the Posse Commitatus Act.

ART: Absolutely.

JOYCE: So, when he described this operation, I asked him what they armed the helicopters with.

ART: Good. And what did he say?

JOYCE: He said they armed them -- there were 20 helicopters that took turns going back and forth between Ft. Hood and Waco, which is a 5-minute flight or a 20-minute drive -- 30-minute drive. They were supported by the 3rd Armored Division. They armed these helicopters with eight Hellfire missiles, which to the person that may not know a Hellfire, it can go through an M-1 tank and it explodes into a fireball. There was a belly gun with an M-60 armor-piercing 20-millimeter cannon. The round pod(?) contained, 50 on each side, air-to-ground 122-millimeter rockets. There were also air-to-ground two Devor(?) Sidewinder missiles loaded on each helicopter. Those are the -- the Sidewinder missiles are the ones that are on the wings of the F-16. There were two Apaches at all times at Waco. There were eight -- there were Blackhawk helicopters, 2 to 4 of those, with eight per -- eight individuals per Blackhawk, and there were Humvees that were there. He also said there were Delta Forces. He does not want to say the unit or where they came from, however they were present there and he did talk with them.

ART: Delta Forces.

JOYCE: Correct. So there's confirmation on the Delta Forces. Now, the critical part of this is we have weapons being deployed that are only used for a war situation, and, by the way, when they are used at Ft. Hood in the training maneuvers, he said they do not even use these weapons. They have a training area outside of Ft. Hood and only the red colored weapons can be used, which are the [?] weapons. He said never. I asked him, "Why did they think they were going into Mt. Carmel?" And he said they had been told this was a very hostile situation, they were heavily armed and it was a cult.

Now, for anyone out there who does not understand, I want to clear the air with respect to David Koresh. I have talked with people in Waco, I have worked with attorneys there, and I can assure there was no legal search warrant, there was no child exploitation going on there. This was a whole different situation than we were told. So, it's all perception media that we received.

ART: Well, I know the psychiatrist that examined the children that did come out, Joyce, said they found them to be well-adjusted. That's my recollection. Now it's a long time ago, but that's what I recall.

JOYCE: That's right. And I also -- my husband, who was doing a talk show for WATR in Waterbury, Connecticut, did an interview with Clyde Doyle(?), who is one of the individuals who escaped from Mt. Carmel, and I had talked to --


JOYCE: Well, I will say that Clyde Doyle has said much of what I have heard here from this individual, because this changes the whole perspective of things and, literally, this radio show tonight, because this information will be coming out in the Dallas Morning News --

ART: Well, there's a little more, Joyce, and I don't know whether you can comment on this or not. You told me very descriptively what the Apaches were armed with. What did they come back with?

JOYCE: And that is the critical issue. I asked him how -- I asked him what happened at Mt. Carmel the day of the fire, and he said, "The Apaches fired. They fired upon something." And I asked him, "If they had fired upon and missed Mt. Carmel or fired out into a field, would there have been a hole?" And he said, "There would have been a huge, huge hole and everyone would have known about it." I asked him how they knew that they fired upon Mt. Carmel, and of course he talked with the pilots and he has named all the individuals. Then he said, "We know they fired because half of the weaponry was missing."

ART: Half of the ordnance was missing?

JOYCE: That's correct. Half of those Hellfire missiles were missing.

ART: God.

JOYCE: And those are the ones that explode into a fireball. So, this information obviously is now going to go to the forefront of the investigation, and I can only say that I am grateful that he has come forward. I hope he has the strength to continue on this, and I know this is not going to be easy for him as sick as he is, also. And I just commend him, because this is the only way, if we band together as Americans to help each other, can the truth come out, and there's a lot of truth out there and there's a lot of people that have information that they can provide us.

ART: Apparently so. Listen, let me read to you what Matt Drudge wrote tonight and see if this resonates with you. Matt wrote, "A federal judge wants all Waco evidence, threatens government with contempt. According to Friday's Atlanta Journal Constitution, United States District Judge Walter Smith, Jr. has ordered the federal government to turn over all evidence relating to the Branch Dividian siege at Waco by the end of the month or face a contempt of court citation. The Journal Constitution's Mark Englen and Tommy Witherspoon are reporting that Judge Smith has dismissed Justice's strongly worded 19-page motion in response to his original August 9th Order as an, quote, 'unwarranted and substantial burden.' Justice argued that Judge Smith's original request for all the evidence was too demanding. Smith wrote, 'The Court finds this argument somewhat disingenuous since the government has been in possession of this material for six and one-half years and has been aware since 1996, when the civil suits were originally filed, that this material could very well be subject to discovery.' End quote. He continued, quote, 'Additionally, the Court would have thought that the vast majority of the material now sought in this civil litigation would have already been compiled as a result of the various Congressional hearings held over the Branch Dividian matter.' End quote. Smith is set to preside over the Branch Davidians' wrongful death civil lawsuit scheduled to begin in late October.

So, here's a judge prepared to hold the U.S. government in contempt.

JOYCE: Well, I'm not -- I'm not threatened by that and I'm not -- I'm sure that they are not threatened, either. You know, the idea is that we have lost human lives.

ART: Well, they ought to be threatened. We had a president, whatever you think of him, good, bad or ugly, who held some courts in contempt and filed some special prosecutors, and it took a while, Joyce, but in the end, my god, they pried the evidence out. And so they better be concerned, because the Judicial Branch of our government is not to be ignored. They can't hold -- I hold them in contempt. I hold our government in contempt.

JOYCE: Well, I think every person does, but I think, for instance, they have just now announced that perhaps Mr. Rudman -- Senator Rudman will now be listed as the chief of the investigating committee on Waco. Well, he's the one that just headed up the Gulf War investigating committee and found nobody sick and there's no problem.

ART: We're now, all of a sudden, hearing, Joyce, that the Attorney General, who had just come in in the middle of this mess in Waco, may not, they say, have been told everything. You been hearing about that?

JOYCE: Oh, absolutely.

ART: May not have been told everything.

JOYCE: But, Art, how many people do you think know when an Apache helicopter -- twenty Apache helicopters are armed and are circling over a church? How many people do you think know about this? Do you think the Attorney General does? Absolutely, she does.

ART: Ought to. Certainly ought to. Now it was kind of hard to tell, because as you recall during the end, in days, they moved the media way, way back. Remember that?

JOYCE: Oh, yes.

ART: So, if that sort of thing was going on -- and I've also now heard it mentioned that the gas cannisters that were tossed in were flammable as well and could have started fires. They're trying to say, "Well, we tossed them in much earlier than the fire and while they could have caused a fire, they didn't, but they were not the primary cause of the fire." So, all of a sudden, everything they said then is BS now. Seems that way.

JOYCE: Well, and everything is turned around and contorted and deluded. I mean, maybe it was a Hellfire missile that ends up in a fireball that started the fire.

ART: Maybe it was. Maybe it was. God help us.

JOYCE: But, you know, colonels and generals at Ft. Hood don't just say, hey, let's send an Apache helicopter, fully armed with Hellfire Spitfire missiiles, 122-millimeter rockets.

ART: Yeah. Here's something that I, to this day, Joyce, do not understand. I watched the FBI briefings daily, as did so many Americans, and inevitably the FBI spokesman, you know, knowing there were women, children in there, said, "If necessary, we'll wait until hell freezes over," whatever it was, "We won't go in violently. We won't end this violently. We will respond, but we will not end it violently. We will wait them out." And then something changed.

JOYCE: Well, the stage had to be set to try and put the burden on them for having started their own fire. They had to set the stage that we're not going to do anything, so if anything happens here it will have been the Branch Davidians. But, you know, there were holes in the top of that church --

ART: I know.

JOYCE: -- prior to the time of the fire. There were people inside there that actually saw, including Dick DeGuerin, the attorney. Now you don't get holes inside that big unless they come from a helicopter -- an attack helicopter such as that. So what we have here is lie upon lie upon lie. You can -- you know, there can be a million lies, but there's only one truth, and I think that our government is going to face the most difficult time in its near future now, and we're not talking about people to just be fired or slapped on the wrist for what they did; we're talking about a whole reevaluation of the people that are in power right now. Not the government. We like -- we love this Constitutional Republic, but there's got to be a total reevaluation of the people and the power that they now have.

ART: All right, Joyce, Hold it right there. Well, did you digest what you just heard? Fully armed, heavily weighted down Apache helicopters with the ordnance just described, coming back with about half of what they left with. I wonder where it went. To serve and protect, huh? And then, I suppose, at times to slaughter as well. From the high desert, this is coast-to-coast AM.

[Break -- 2:22:25 into program]

-- Ed (ed@lizzardranch.com), September 04, 1999


I watched the Waco inferno. I was sitting in my living room and my dad who had a stroke was sleeping. Something was stirring at Waco and I woke up my dad, it was early afternoon eastern time. We watched the whole thing from beginning to end. We watched it from the first tank moving in during the early part of the day until the last ashes were moved about by the feet of the forces on the ground trying to figure out what was left.

No f_cking Apaches launched anything. Art Bell is a piece of garbage and is just doing what he always does.

-- clam (clam@bake.com), September 04, 1999.

No Clam, it was those new INVISIBLE Apaches that did the dirty.

Waco is a tragedy, but goofy dipshit speculation like this will make the feds look good, and make the detracters look like goofy dipshits.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), September 04, 1999.

No - what I saw on a film clip was an 'Apache' disguised to look like an OH-58...a recon bird. (No Apaches, but there was an OH 58 in the film clip I saw this morning.)

-- Valkyrie (anon@please.net), September 04, 1999.

Clam watched the tv,so that makes him a expert.NOT,you are saying and i quote there where no f_cking apaches there,Are you sure? That is strong language for a little man like you.Maybe we should look at this event a little closer.They have had plenty of time to alter,fabricate,or just distroy any evidence that would emplicate a top official.

-- G Bailey (GBa6872290@aol.com), September 04, 1999.

Gbailey, hey genius, did you watch the whole thing LIVE from start to finish, I DID!.

It wasnt one camera and one camera angle, it was alot of cameras and alot of angles and every possible reporter telling us every single detail they could think of telling us. It was on ALL the Tv stations and it was covered for HOURS.The panned the whole scene, scanned the skies, panned up and down the roads to and from the compound.

Go buy the latest WACO film, it will make them richer and you poorer.

-- clame (clam@bake.com), September 04, 1999.

No I did not watch the media coverage on waco.When i heard that ATF agents stormed a church with guns blazing,and there are children in the building.That was enough evidence for me.All you have to do is look at janet reno and you get the idea.Thank you for all the people that voted for this kind of shit.Your guy is in office,HA,HA And i will not rent or buy the video.

-- G Bailey (GBa6872290@aol.com), September 04, 1999.

Yo Clam,

Your just a damn expert on everything today, huh! Did you double dose on that medication or are you just a know it all?? You don't know jack about Apache SOP, and you believe everything you see on TV and miss out on the film left cut on the edit room floor !!! Go find the beanie baby website and tell them all how your gonna corner the market, sellout and retire to start your own website for expert pollyanna knowitall's !!!

-- nitesky voodoo (lookinup@wow.com), September 04, 1999.

Sometimes I wonder if fanciful stories aren't being deliberately planted in an effort to discredit the reliable witnesses.

Surely no one in leadership would allow such a tactic.


-- gene (ekbaker@essex1.com), September 04, 1999.

I am in complete agreement with you Gene.

If Apache helos were firing at the Branch Davidian compound it would be a VERY tough thing to hide. VERY, VERY. And of course, if it were so, no young whipper-snapper reporter would want to make the scoop of the decade by reporting it as it happened. No, it would "End up on the cutting room floor."

Sure it would.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), September 04, 1999.

From today's Waco Tribune-Herald.

Tear Gas

-- mommacarestx (harringtondesignX@earthlink.net), September 04, 1999.

Sorry. Don't know why that doesn't work. The Waco Tribune-Herald can be found at http://www.accesswaco.com Check it daily for their local stories. They have a couple reporters working hard on this beat.

This particular article from today's paper is at http://www.accesswaco.com/auto/feed/news/local/1999/09/04/ 936481430.21261.7877.0017.html

-- mommacarestx (harringtondesignX@earthlink.net), September 04, 1999.

Fair use: For educational purposes only. Copyright owned by the Waco Tribune-Herald, 1999.

News: Local

FBI did not get tear gas from military; had its own supply

By MARK ENGLAND Tribune-Herald staff writer

When the FBI took over the government's standoff with the Branch Davidians, it quickly asked for and got a store of equipment from the military.

The list was extensive: 10 Bradley Fighting Vehicles; 4 Combat Engineering Vehicles; 2 Abrams tanks; an M88 tank retriever; helicopters; Humvees; tents, generators, video equipment; gas masks, night vision goggles and concertina wire.

What the FBI didn't get was tear gas.

An FBI spokesman told the Tribune-Herald that the agency's Hostage Rescue Team in 1993 carried military tear gas as a regular part of its inventory.

Media representative Dave Miller said the FBI did not have to turn to the military to get canisters of M-651 CS, a pyrotechnic. At least two canisters of military tear gas were shot at an underground area beside the Davidians' residence  several hours before a fire destroyed Mount Carmel, leading to the deaths of David Koresh and 75 followers.

"For all munitions, the FBI goes out on bid, just as all government entities do," Miller said.

There had been speculation that the FBI had to get the military tear gas from a military source.

Department of Defense spokesman Bill Darley, however, said his agency ruled that out after painstakingly examining its role in the 51-day standoff, with much of the examination done to prepare for the 1995 Congressional hearings on Mount Carmel.

"Our assertion is that we didn't provide them any CS gas," Darley said. "Not from Fort Hood, not from Fort Bliss, not from anywhere."

According to the audio portion of a recently released infrared film, HRT Commander Richard M. Rogers gave approval at 7:48 a.m. on April 19, 1993 to fire the military tear gas. Film taken that day by KWTX-TV, Channel 10, of Waco shows the back of a Bradley vehicle lowering and a man taking aim toward the underground bunker area with an M-79 grenade launcher shortly after 8 a.m. The KWTX camera caught a small whiff of smoke coming from the grenade launcher, then panned to the left, where smoke could be seen rising from the bunker area.

The FBI's acknowledgement that its Hostage Rescue Team carried military tear gas in its arsenal reflects what some call the militarization of civilian law enforcement. That trend bothered the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight that looked at Mount Carmel four years ago  even without its knowing about the use of pyrotechnic tear gas.

"When ATF had to decide between arresting Koresh away from the Branch Davidian residence or a direct confrontation, it chose direct confrontation," the committee reported. "ATF also chose to conduct a dynamic entry as opposed to a siege."

The committee concluded, "Civilian law enforcement's increasing use of militaristic tactics is unacceptable."

Rod Paschall, one of the reviewers who blistered the ATF for its handling of the raid on Mount Carmel, said he doesn't find the FBI's use of military tear gas "sinister."

"I'm not sure civilian law enforcement should be restricted from using it," said Paschall, a former commander of Delta Force. "To my mind, you need to use whatever it takes to get the job done."

Paschall said a so-called burster releases the tear gas in a military tear gas canister.

"There is a burning effect," he said. "There's an advantage to that. If you toss it into a crowd of rioters, for example, the probability of one of them picking it up and tossing it back are remote."

However, Paschall said the use of military tear gas must be carefully considered.

"If you use a round that's pyrotechnic, you have to consider the possibility of fire and the resulting cost," Paschall said.

Mark England can be reached at mengland@wacotrib.com or 757-5744.

-- someone (someone@somewhere.com), September 04, 1999.


curious - did you ever SEE Waco - Rules of Engagement?

did you know that when the assault took place all media were cordoned off miles away, and only had one field of view?

tell me, in the documentary, choppers were shown hovering over the compound, and firing...

tell me, am I imagining things???

Uncle - yep you are ex-military and know a thing or two about helicopters...

seems you know jack shit about what went down that day at the compound...

-- andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), September 04, 1999.

Bull shit. There were no Apaches at Waco. This is dis-information. The helocopters they had were troop transports and if there was any firing from helicopters it was from the personel arms of the federal agents involved. Repeat this lie and you sound like a nut. You say something that the government can disprove and when they do that any claims that there was air to ground fire from the helicopters that were there will be ignored. There were NO attack helicopters, like apaches, at Waco. There may have been air to ground fire at Waco from agents aboard transport helicopters.

Watch six and keep your...

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.net), September 04, 1999.

eyes open, agree with you that it ***seemed*** to be fire from rifles and/or sidearms, however, you have not answered my assertion that the media were kept ***WELL AWAY*** from the battle zone and thus there are still many many questions left unanswered...

did you see the documentary? what make of helicopter was shown in the film? does this discount the possibility that apaches ***may*** have been used? I don't thinks so, either way...

as it is now evidence has come out that the geneva convention was broken, and flagrantly so...

-- andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), September 04, 1999.

Here's a link leading info on Waco that's a lot more volatile than Waco-Rules of Engagement.


Take the time to read through this...it is devastating and horrific.


-- TM (mercier7@pdnt.com), September 04, 1999.

Do y'all remember the WorldNetDaily articles that exposed the Delta Force involvement in urban warrior activities in Kingston, TX and elsewhere earlier this year? Reporter David Breshanan wrote a lot about the Night Stalkers, the elite Delta Force helicopter pilots. He also had a hot link to the Night Stalkers webpage. The articles, now in the WND archives, have been altered. The name Night Stalkers, originally spelled correctly, has been changed to Knight Stalkers, and the URL for their website no longer appears in the articles. There are internet sites that archived the articles at the time they were published, where they can still be seen in their original form with the correct spelling and the URL. Interestingly, though, the Night Stalkers webpage is gone. It was still on line as recently as a few months ago. No connection to this thread, but it is peculiar.

-- (....@...), September 04, 1999.

curious - did you ever SEE Waco - Rules of Engagement?

No, but I am working on getting it, it may take some time. Seems that my local Blockbuster Video doesn't stock it since they were taken over by the Bilderburgers.

did you know that when the assault took place all media were cordoned off miles away, and only had one field of view?

Yes, I watched it on TV live as it happened as a matter of fact. Though the press corps was away from the action, I could see what was going on pretty well. I don't recall Hellfire missle exaust trails, nor the tell-tale rapid puff trails of the nose mounted chain guns.

tell me, in the documentary, choppers were shown hovering over the compound, and firing...

tell me, am I imagining things???

See above, I'm working on seeing the documentary, but I have a good memory of what I did see, again, see above.

Uncle - yep you are ex-military and know a thing or two about helicopters...

No, I am not ex-military. A collapsed lung as a teen kept me from serving. I have, however, well versed myself with things military, with an extra emphasis on aircraft, of which I am particularly fond. I challenge you to diguise a Blackhawk to appear as a Huey or an Apache to appear as either. C'mon big boy, fool me.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), September 04, 1999.

This a better link to the web site I mentioned earlier.


-- TM (mercier7@pdnt.com), September 04, 1999.

Sorry Uncle - I could have sworn you were in Vietnam in an air support unit - din't you once talk about your claim to fame of a photo of you in 'nam on teevee?... never mind.

LOL about the Bilderbugers...

"No, I am not ex-military. A collapsed lung as a teen kept me from serving. I have, however, well versed myself with things military, with an extra emphasis on aircraft, of which I am particularly fond. I challenge you to diguise a Blackhawk to appear as a Huey or an Apache to appear as either. C'mon big boy, fool me.

You miss my point.

The media were kept ***well away*** from the action. What little you saw on teevee was filmed from miles away through a heat haze... get with the program here Uncle, the media was TOTALLY manipulated throughout the whole fiasco...And no, the apache is unmistakeable - that's not what I'm saying... you NEED to see the movie, the infra- red images of firing from snipers on the ground and fire from helicopters...

this isn't going away, truth will out...

-- andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), September 04, 1999.


I shall now amaze the audience with my astounding memory. The man to which you refer is S.O.B. who was a tail gunner on a B-51 in the Nam. He was talking about appearing on TV in an episode of a Discovery Channel show about the air war in Nam, where he and his compatriots were shown in the briefing room prior to a mission.


And yes the truth will out, and Apache's firing on the compound will not come out with the truth, because it is not so. They are anti-tank weapons laddie.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), September 04, 1999.

Careful, Andy, this whole Apache thing could be a DELIBERATE set-up: get everyone upset about it, then be able to show that it never happened, THEN use that to discredit everyone who thinks the Government is lying about Waco!!!!

Unless they really DID use Apaches, in which case it could still be a deliberate set-up, to deceptively "show" that it never happened, so if and when people find out that it did, they will be able to say that it didn't.

Unless ... (Gawd, I think my brain is conspiracied out....)

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), September 04, 1999.


BTW, I am enjoying some lovely Guinness this evening, cheers to you my dear misguided friend. But at least your heart is in the right place.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), September 04, 1999.

KOS you could be right :)

Uncle - good memory about Bob, sorry for the confusion. As I said I don't necessarily buy the apache allegations, unless they came in at low level from the rear of the compound, behind the line of site of the media cameras... yep, it's all too far-fetched, and yep I know they are attack beasts and what they can do - since when has that stopped gubmint i.e. using cruise missiles willy nilly to bomb some tents and an aspirin factory...

pop one for me - make sure you pour it right!

-- andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), September 04, 1999.


I would not tell anyone that it is physically impossible for an Apache to come in at low level out of camera view, low level is where that beast is at home. But I don't buy it, not one little bit.

BTW, I take mine right from the nipple. And yes, I know that it is a horrible disgrace to have it w/o it's proper headlyness, sue me.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), September 04, 1999.


-- andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), September 04, 1999.

One hopes he AT LEAST keeps it at the proper temperature. All I'M enjoying is a Saranac Black and Tan, pale immitation, I assure you.


-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), September 04, 1999.

Another good treat, Chuck!

Do not compare Saranac with what it is not;) I like a good tanner now and again. In fact, since this silly thread deserved to die anyway, a nice B+T is made with (Andy, please avert your eyes) a Guinness poured into a glass with a nice Molsen Golden Ale. Tasty. And tart.

Try and enjoy.


PS, Perhaps now that I have ruled out Apache shenanigans, we can salvage this thread with a nice beer chat?

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), September 04, 1999.


-- andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), September 04, 1999.


-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), September 04, 1999.

Damned right!

GIN Martini, two olives, SHAKEN, not STIRRED!!!!!!!

-- andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), September 05, 1999.

What do you mean the Apache is not armed in the U.S.. How do you think we get good at killing, with video's? You lost me with that statement. Nice try on the theory scare, next time. Check your six!

-- pdg (Hughs500pilot@xmilitary.com), September 05, 1999.

One would certainly ASSUME (yeah that word) that training rounds would be a bit different than the hot stuff.

And I normally don't try to compare Saranac to the real stuff, it's just that I DID have one of the real ones at a food tasting downtown this evening and unfortunately don't have even one true stout on the premises. DRAT have to fix that.


BTW Saranac is a nice little craft brewery that is run by F. X. Matt Co. in Utica, NY. (Matt's, Utica Club (Schultz and Dooley Singing Steins, I'm getting homesick)) They have a few world medals for some of their brews and they have a few stinkers (the raspberry, if I remember correctly was one I couldn't even be GIVEN a second one of but their Wheat is superb).

Hic ! (anyone seen Rob Michaels around?)



-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), September 05, 1999.


I fear that I was misunderstood. Saranac is not an INFERIOR beer, it is a DIFFERENT beer. As I said, I LIKE B+T.

That which we call a rose would, by any other name, smell as sweet.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), September 05, 1999.

Unc, your last answer made me LOL - being a beer barbarian my favorite thing to say about beer is that it at least tastes better than it smells!

Tipping my Frangelico'ed coffee

-- Tricia the Canuck (tricia_canuck@hotmail.com), September 05, 1999.

Apaches...sheesh...what next? Maybe the CIA got their alien buddies to help out with those heat-ray-laser-beams like in "War of the Worlds"? Fact that there's no evidence for this just shows the scary extent of the coverup.

-- zzzzzz (xyz@xyz.zzz), September 05, 1999.

I dont buy the claim that Apaches were at Waco, nor that they shot at the compound. Now Blackhawks or other troop helos, fine, but not Apaches.

Art Bell is full of crap in my opinion. Certainly the quoted source of info is incorrect on the munitions on the Apaches. Example: Hellfire missiles won't go through an M1 and explode into a fireball. They are capable against bunkers, etc. I am not aware of any M-60 20mm belly gun. I was under the impression that there is a 20mm chain gun, but I don't believe that it is called the M60.

There is no such thing as a 50-rd 122mm rocket pod. 122mm is more than 4" diameter. I believe there is a large rocket pod that is carried, but it's 2.75" rockets, and a smaller capacity than 50 rds.

Sidewinder missiles are strictly air to air target capable, and have no air to ground capability. Nor do I recognize the name "Devors".

-- Bill (billclo@msgbox.com), September 05, 1999.

As for "devors": as I listened to the audio file, it seemed to me the words "two to four" had been mistranscribed. Whether Apaches were there, or not, I have no idea. The claimant might well be working out a grudge. This information on all configurations of the Apache is taken from the Military Analysis Network managed by the Federation of American Scientists: AH-64 Apache
The Apache can carry up to 16 Hellfire laser designated missiles. With a range of over 8000 meters, the Hellfire is used primarily for the destruction of tanks, armored vehicles and other hard material targets. The Apache can also deliver 76, 2.75" folding fin aerial rockets for use against enemy personnel, light armor vehicles and other soft-skinned targets. Rounding out the Apaches deadly punch are 1,200 rounds of ammunition for its Area Weapons System (AWS), 30MM Automatic Gun.
AGM-114 Hellfire II
Laser Hellfire presently is used as the main armament of the U.S. Army's AH-64 Apache and U.S. Marine Corps's AH-1W Super Cobra helicopters. The laser missile homes on a laser spot that can be projected from ground observers, other aircraft, or the launching aircraft itself. This enables the system to be employed in a variety of modes: autonomous, air or ground, direct or indirect, single shot, rapid, or ripple fire. Hellfire II and Longbow Hellfire missiles are complementary. The combination of Hellfire II's precision guidance and Longbow Hellfire's fire-and-forget capability will provide the battlefield commander flexibility across a wide range of mission scenarios, permitting fast battlefield response and high mobility not afforded by other anti-armor weapons.

For antiarmor roles, the AGM-114 missile has a conical shaped charge warhead with a copper liner cone that forms the jet that provides armor penetration. This high explosive, antitank warhead is effective against various types of armor including appliqui and reactive. Actual penetration performance is classified. It can also be employed against concrete bunkers and similar fortifications.

Note the operating range. 8000 meters is approximately 5 miles. A pair of these birds low-down 3 to 4 miles out might not show up in the media TV coverage. It's 11 o'clock in the morning and I'm not up to discussing beer.

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), September 05, 1999.

I keep being surprised by the amount of information available on the Internet. It turns out that live fire exercises are indeed conducted within the borders of the United States, and that tanks are in fact vulnerable to Hellfire missiles. See HE LLFIRE Test Facility
The HELLFIRE Test Facility [at Eglin AFB, Florida] supports the firing of live warhead missiles and other weapons from an extensively instrumented launcher platform or from aircraft into instrumented target areas, including active and passive countermeasures.

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), September 06, 1999.

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