WACO: Enough already!greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread
The Waco fiasco was a tragedy because the local and eventually federal governments tried to come up with some kind of solution to end the stand off and screwed up. Nobody knows what really happened and nobody will ever really know. The government will love to tell you its not their fault and the right-wing militia or Christian types want to blame the government.
This board is getting way to much noise from nuts who want to overthrow the government or fight for a loser like Koresh but dont give a damn about other people who are not Christians or right-wing zealots.
Lets get back to Y2k.
Moderator, please control how much of this OT WACO crap gets posted here, please!
-- truth (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 03, 1999
I second the motion
-- Janet Reno (email@example.com), September 03, 1999.
Is something bothering you about Waco? Something that just makes you click on that annoying thread with "Waco" in the title, even though you are otherwise free to pass it by? What hidden drive compels you to lash out against discussion of Waco on this BB? I suggest to you that YOU ARE MUCH MORE INTERESTED IN WHAT HAPPENED AT WACO THAN YOU THINK YOU ARE.
Why don't you rent the video "Waco: The Rules of Engagement," and satisfy that hidden compulsion that seems to be controlling your life?
-- Liberty (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 03, 1999.
This is relevant to Y2K, as has been established many times on many previous threads, in spite of attempts otherwise. And, dumbass, more evidence is being "discovered" every day, so I wouldn't give up so easily. Unless, of course, you don't WANT to know the truth. (Is the bear Catholic?)
Janet: You are too butt ugly to mudwrestle, don't even think about it.
-- King of Spain (email@example.com), September 03, 1999.
I too am really put off by all the focus here on Waco. I'm sure the spin meisters are glad to see this obsession crop up here.
It was tragic. It deserves serious resolution. Just not here.
-- TM (digiratoX@mindspring.com), September 03, 1999.
The timing of this release has seriously defocussed Y2K scrutiny. I'm sorry those people (the innocent ones) died. It's to late to save them, what about YOU. You're in the same scenario, you just don't know it.
Please enough WACO.
-- Gordon (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 03, 1999.
If it weren't sacrificing the Waco perps to create a distraction, they would be manufacturing one. We're getting a look at the people who have planned your Y2k future for you. The recent challenge to them could determine who rises from the ruins - and who gets bulldozed back into the rubble.
I think the struggle between a free republic and a police state is larger than Y2k. The result will hit harder and last longer.
-- Liberty (email@example.com), September 03, 1999.
I thought serious Y2K preps were being discussed on the new Y2K forum, and this forum was left for "broader" Y2K topics. In my opinion, if Y2K is bad, Government reaction is critical.
Waco is a an example of how the Government reacts.
-- Anonymous99 (Anonymous99@Anonymous99.xxx), September 03, 1999.
Not only on how Government REACTS, but also WHAT IT SAYS. If it has lied, again and again, about the events at Waco so as to not make it self look bad, does this not set a backdrop for what the Government is telling us today about Y2K? ESPECIALLY since the Clinton administration has "owned" the Y2K problem for nearly seven years, and WILL own it through the year 2000.
-- King of Spain (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 03, 1999.
Liberty, I think Koresh is most assuredly 'part' of the problem. Man, I have seen this movie at least 15 times and last night we showed it to a group of over 14 friends. There was a great deal of discussion after the movie, lots of heated comments, no tears. There were Catholics, Christians, Jews, and a few folks with limited religious convictions. I want to clarify this because the area of religion seemed to play a big role in most of the comments. My wife was raised in a Southern Baptist atmosphere and I have a Catholic background. To a person, the government was given very low marks. Most felt that the filmmakers were using the standard tools of spin with the editing and sound track. This however did not deter us from blaming every agency involved and we all agreed that major crimes were committed and prosecution should commence as soon as possible. But in the end it was Mr. Vernon Howell (AKA: David Koresh) that received the brunt of our wrath. We live in an era where religion has become the escape clause for just too much, and many folks are just tired of it. Koresh told his people and the whole world that he would lead his followers out of the compound and resolve the situation in the courts. Many did leave as you see in the film. Hell yes they were arrested. Did you expect them to be bused down to Sea World for the weekend? Then, out of the blue, Koresh said that God had spoken to him. Told him to wait. This is where we had a major credibility problem with Koresh. What if God had spoken to the FBI agent-in- charge and told him to wipeout everyone in the compound? Would that make it OK? The more you see and hear Koresh in that film, the more you become convinced that he would force a violent conclusion on his followers.
I will not allow you to continue to let this man off the hook. He must take his rightful place in the history of this tragedy. Dead crazies too often become martyrs for the worst of reasons. I agree with you that everone should see this film, at least twice.
-- For (email@example.com), September 03, 1999.
-- Incase (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 04, 1999.
AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! Yes, a loud scream!
Okay. Let's try to think logically here people.
"This board is getting way to much noise from nuts who want to overthrow the government or fight for a loser like Koresh but dont give a damn about other people who are not Christians or right-wing zealots."
What makes you think "Christians" consider David Koresh to be a Christian? What a joke. I will tell you what I do consider him to have been...
AN AMERICAN CITIZEN!!!!!!!!!!
Think people!! Read the propaganda used to justify the persecution of the Jews by Hitler and his sick Nazi machine. Don't you get it? It doesn't matter if you like David Koresh. It doesn't matter if you agree with his religious beliefs.
Look at the evidence that is stacking up that might eventually prove the following:
The government was digging around for any charge to use as an excuse for their publicity raid.
The locals had no problems with the Davidians. The sheriff wanted to just pick David Koresh up when he came to town, without a scene.
The government illegally used Delta Force. Our most elite fighters against women and children? Our laws forbid this.
There is evidence that the government set up and ignited the fire.
There is evidence that psychological warfare and banned CS gas were used.
There is evidence that those who tried to escape were shot at.
There is evidence that people were shot at from the helicopters.
The four agents killed were closely connected with Clinton previously, and should be suspected as joining his Body Count.
The evidence was bulldozed, burned or "disappeared".
You blame Koresh for not walking out waving a white flag? You think you really truly know how you would react? Don't forget the lights and noise 24 hours a day, wounded and dead, and sounds of rabbits being killed etc. There was an attorney screaming to 911 that people were being shot at, and he was ignored. Fire fighters were not allowed to help when they should have. But you are so sure you would have done just the right thing. But of course, you are not a weird religious freak like he was.
What is the government's excuse? The one you have swallowed. We don't like Koresh. He's a Looney, a Cult Monger. Guess what? I bet alot of people throughout your lifetime haven't particularly liked you either. Since when has that become a criteria for being protected by the laws of this country? Did Koresh have the right to wait for a negotiated surrender? I would say yes, under the circumstances. Did he know they would be gassed and fried? I don't think so. I think those people wanted to live. And what about those kids?
WHAT ABOUT THOSE KIDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am now going to BEG people to go to their library and start reading about the political climate in Germany prior to WWII. Read about the persecutions. Read how it was handled by Hitler. Read how the Jewish people were blamed and disliked. It justified atrocities in the minds of too many. Learn from history!
Yes, it is long over, but the blood of those innocents still cries out.
Relevant? Is truth ever not relevant in this world? What is this forum, but a search for the truth about Y2K? If our government gets away with burying this, then dig your own grave because YOU ARE NEXT!
-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 04, 1999.
This is where the thin line between discussing Y2K and government involvement becomes a political issues with a political agenda. I believe this forum has more than established the government as a whole is out of touch with reality on the Y2K issue and is not doing its job of informing the massses. It is another issues to point to Waco or any other instance of government coverup and relate it to the government incompetence on the y2k issues. But the discussion now are focused on a political agenda and its very clear to see. The government is much bigger that either two big political parties. IMHO, both parties hold equal blame for whatever happens concerning Y2K. And such, our focus should be pointed that way. Are we that blind that we fail to see that? Are we playing into the SPIN doctors hands by placing blame?
Waco was indeed a sad chapter in our history. So was the Contras smuggling cocaine into America with the help of the CIA. So is the rape of the land by corporations a travesty to all. Are we learning from our mistakes or do we only see the mistakes being made by the other side and turn a blind eye. Some of us can turn this forum into such discussions and divert the attention needed away Y2K if that will please the moderators and other of this forum. I do not believe for a seceond that Ed Yourdon had a POLITICAL agenda in mind when this board was founded.
Y2K is the issue and it is a NON-POLITICAL!
Y2K know's no POLITICAL affliation!
I came to this forum to be educated and increase my awareness of Y2K. I see that this idea is being tampered with and does not suit my purpose. It may not suit the purpose for those who will need it the most in the upcoming months wither if the POLITICAL agenda is not subsided.
Now you know that I am one of few words but this is an issue I see getting out of hand.
-- y2k dave (email@example.com), September 04, 1999.